Why does everyone's liking or disliking of the new sets tend to contrast with my own? I personally think that as the Nuva, these sets are more than I could have expected, but as sets, well... they're a bit lacking. The tools, wings, jets, etc... all are great. The masks are also great as far as I can tell, though I deny that it is possible to come to a final judgement on them until I can hold them.

What irks me is that not only do they have little similarity to their former selves; they also bear little similarity to each other. No longer is slight stylization enough to make clear what team they are from in my drawings. No, I'll really have to work hard at it this time.

Nevertheless, I approve of the Nuva wholeheartedly, and far more than their Makuta counterparts. That action feature hopefully will compensate for the lack of distinguishable torsos.

EDIT: And Chirox had better be pronounced KEER-ocks. That's Lyi's special naming trick! (if my username and his haven't made it obvious )

Why does everyone's liking or disliking of the new sets tend to contrast with my own?

Because we're looking at them from a storyline point of view?

There was a lot in your entry, ToM.

I think the biggest point you have (that you should dedicate and entry to, although I need to do that too) is the shoulder proportions. I have my opinions (5 stud waists, 7 stud shoulders) but of course this is about you.

and:

Chirox: Keer-ox or Sheer-ox, perhaps Cheer-ox, depending on my mood.

(Has GregF confirmed that?)

-CF

On[c]e I got over the initial shock and anger, I started to like them.

Lol -- now, see, this is a point I raise many times. Why not skip the shock and anger and get right to the liking of whatever you like? I mean, we knew these would be "updated" to the new style, right? So why not accept that before it comes out rather than after?

I think that's what explains a lot of the negative reactions that we get right away, as many have pointed out for years, and then later some of the same people start to realize they actually like the new set, whatever it is. What confuses me is, why not just skip the negative step and go right to judging the set for what it is? You're still going to dislike things, of course, but the steps I'm talking about are where we for some reason force ourselves to ignore our own tastes that would make us like something, just because it's new.

I'm not talking about whether it's a "transformed" set or not -- I'm just talking about judging the actual set itself for itself, regardless of its storyline or name. Imagine you're seeing this character for the first time. I think that approach is a lot healthier.

Something to think about.

I've already mentioned how much I hate the airplane wings. (To quote Lah, "Kopaka is not, to my knowledge, an airplane." I agree with her.)

On what basis? Is Hahli, to our knowledge, not a penguin? What about Takua not being a Toa? When something changes, like with Kopaka becoming like a "Toa-plane", it... well... changes. So your past knowledge of what he used to be is irrelevant.

This is a good example of how what is innovative and original is also inherently absurd. This is a key thing to understand about what makes "originality." Toa on a tropical (in some places) island is "absurd" -- to those of us who like its style, we like it, and so we think of it as original. To those who don't, they simply can't get over the absurdity of it. It's how taste works.

I've run into this a lot with a poetry class I'm taking. There are some lines people include that I see as just absurd. But really, what is "absurd" about them is that they are something I've never thought of, and I lapse into "boring" mode, and for some reason I don't appreciate the cleverness of it. But others in the class instantly get it, and so they see it as original, and often those lines are what they point out as the strongest in the poem!

And vice versa, many times I have loved lines someone else (usually the professor, lol) hates.

Remember that -- clever absurdity, designed to harmonize with certain tastes, is the key to originality.

By definition, it will displease strongly those whose tastes it doesn't appeal to (it will strike them as absurd and often so much so they honestly cannot imagine liking it). But it is still more original than boringness, and hopefully everybody can at least appreciate that.

And it's different than non-clever absurdity, which is either illogical, or just doesn't happen to please anybody anywhere, XD (that might be possible ).

All that said, I wish the wings were cooler. Didn't have a problem with an airplane style. It fits Kopaka's coldly strong personality, like a fighter jet. Just didn't think the piece was "coolified" enough. More ridges, spikes, something like that.

Interesting side note -- since I've started to understand this truth about absurdity relating to originality, it's interesting that I've been able to appreciate and even like a lot of things that I once hated a lot. Brings up the question of choice in taste, how much of it do we have? I still don't know, but it's interesting. Regardless, it does at least show why skipping the negative step, at least trying it, is worth a try.

If it were up to me, I'd have given Kopaka angelic wings more similar to Hahli's – combine sword, shield, and wings, and voilà, he's an angel!

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would fit his personality. Might be just me, dunno. But angel wings could work on an ice Toa. I just don't see it as fitting Kopaker.

On Lewa, the boosters look fine on the set, but he already had a means of flight – the alternate function for his Katana, combined with his Miru and elemental power.

Good point, except for the Katana part -- he only has one now. No idea if we call that a "Katana" now, though. But he could "fly" by hovering with his Miru (and he still has a Miru Newva, Greg said), and using wind to blow himself forward.

On the other hand, that takes both elemental energy and mental focus/energy, and is rather clumsy compared to a cool jet.

Perhaps the jets are powered seperately; providing a much easier method of flight, which is vital in battle. Toa need their elemental energy and especially their focus. Freeing those up for other things is good.

But that makes me question whether the Miru is now the best choice of mask. I suppose if the jets conk out, good to have handy (lol), but then the other two Nuva seem to be able to fly too.

I wonder if they all still have all six Nuva masks? Oh, and they can share powers -- maybe Lewa can share powers with K and P and others for a benefit in battle...

Anyways. This tangent is rather... tangential.

Proportion-wise, they suffer many of the flaws of the Inika and Mahri. Kopaka and Lewa both have arms the length of their legs – that's a big no.

Ha ha. Sorry, I just always laugh when I read that one. Can't help it, since I love the long arms look so much. Ah, how varied taste can be -- this is one of those that I can't imagine not liking. Apes -- they so cool IMT.

But serious mode -- of course it's fine to feel that way.

The villains I want to see frontal pictures of instead of just from above before I decide on them

I thought they were frontal pictures? Certainly not the clearest, but I didn't see any that were from above. I made a blog entry focusing on all the pics closely, and I see frontal every time.

Chirox (a question on him: how do you readers pronounce his name?)

Cheer-ocks.

Overall I think I'd like the latter two more if they had a more formidable air to them.

Did you mean the former two, since those were the ones you said you liked least?

I might go over just what I'd change in the Nuva to make them acceptable in another entry. It's quite fun to think about...

Looking forward.

Why does everyone's liking or disliking of the new sets tend to contrast with my own?

That's how personal taste works. People are like snowflakes. No two are the same.

Because we're looking at them from a storyline point of view?

No, no, no, common myth. That can play a role in either like or dislike of just about anything, and it doesn't even need to be a factor for two people to like different things in the sets. Most of the time it isn't actually a factor, directly, with most fans, because story geeks are actually somewhat rare. (Most just roleplay.) For example, I like the new Nuva better, and storywise I see that as good because they are being "improved" storywise. Yet someone else could see it storywise as bad because they are less "true" to the old form. Story or not isn't what's up with that.

It's different personal tastes.

I've been pronouncing it "KAI-rox," though I'm pretty sure that's because I'm a classics nut... Might also be because I didn't like a villain having a sound similar to "cheer" in his name. (Though with a short vowel, not a long ee.)

Aanchir – That I couldn't tell you, except that in general you seem to have tastes wildly different from my own (in Bionicle, at least), which would explain away our difference... I agree I dislike the "little similarity to each other" part.

Bones:

@ "shock and anger" ~ And why shouldn't I be disappointed when sets I had been hoping would look a certain way didn't even come close to that? Of course it explains the negative enitial reactions, both my own and many others – there was a precedent for these characters' apparances (like with the Mahri and Inika), so of course there are going to be people annoyed that they barely follow that precedent, if they do at all. It's about both sets and story (their identities) when you bring back old characters, so many, like myself, have the reaction that the sets do not live up to the story in that respect.

@ originality and Kopaka ~ Um, Hahli's wings don't look anything at all like a penguin's. Kopaka's look exactly like an airplane's. There is an enormous difference in the two's acquiring of means of flight (or things resembling such, for Hahli) – one isn't exactly like anything on Earth, very much Bionicle-stylized; the other is taken almost directly from a plane.

That is, by the way, the prime reason I hate Kopaka's wings. I usually do not like things so directly taken from Earth and slapped into Bionicle. (And that is entirely my own taste.)

But how on earth is the precedent of something's appearance irrelevant to how he/she/it looks after the change? (Takua was a unique case in every way in this respect; let's not focus on him.)

Something doesn't have to be absurd to be original – Kalmah's shoulder pads were original when they appeared in Bionicle, but far from absurd. Certainly originality is often drawn from refined "absurdity," as you put it, but if people don't like result, well, they don't like it. But they might like something equally original just as well, but not for the reason of originality.

(Tangents are fun!)

But, back to the original point, I just don't think airplane wings belong on anyone, but I can see angel wings on Kopaka just as easily as you can imagine the airplane wings.

@ Lewa's boosters ~ Actually, boosters mounted on one's arms would be a terrible thing to have during aerial combat, because if you move your arms (as you rather have to) then you go spiraling off... As to now having only one Katana, presumably he still had two when this tool change occured – one idea I had a while ago was for him to be able to attach his Katana (with the new form having two of them, not just one) to his back and use them as wings, leaving his arms free for combat.

It wasn't clumsy at all – look in his CGI movie, in MoL, in all Lewa Nuva's comics – he flew perfectly gracefully.

Ha ha. Sorry, I just always laugh when I read that one. tongue.gif Can't help it, since I love the long arms look so much. Ah, how varied taste can be -- this is one of those that I can't imagine not liking. Apes -- they so cool IMT.

Well, going by standard rules of human proportion, a male's torso is generally only as broad as his hips, with shoulders outside that (as ChocolateFrogs mentioned), and the hand reaches only mid-thigh... Variations on that are fine for effect, but I just think having arms so long they almost touch the ground (like in Hewkii Mahri) just looks silly, and I disliked the Inika enough in both shoulder width (overall) and arm length, so that continued continues to irk me.

I thought they were frontal pictures? Certainly not the clearest, but I didn't see any that were from above. I made a blog entry focusing on all the pics closely, and I see frontal every time.

Not fully frontal – they're angled and from the top, so I can't make out their torso construction. Partly, though.

Did you mean the former two, since those were the ones you said you liked least?

Actually, no, since those two are the less formidable-looking ones, and if they were more formidable might like them better...

Anyway, my alternate ideas for these Nuva will be in the next entry.

Why does everyone's liking or disliking of the new sets tend to contrast with my own?

That's how personal taste works. People are like snowflakes. No two are the same.

Conversely, snowflakes are like people. But that's not my point. My point is that people-- though I could be more specific and say older MOCists-- tend to disagree on the most basic terms of my beliefs concerning new sets. What I see as familiar, they see as strange. What I see as diverging from tradition, they see as the very essence of BIONICLE. It becomes confusing, myself being a less serious MOCist, that the more serious MOCists and I fail to see eye-to-eye, despite my admiration for those MOCists themselves.

I look at sets from a storyline point of view, but it is an artistic variation on such a point of view. The new Nuva are certainly not as alike as the Mahri, and I will not even attempt to stylize their armor to bear a resemblance. But they are what Greg told us to expect: a revamp. I certainly knew that the old Kanohi Nuva were removed for a reason, as were older armor styles, and minor redesigns would not be judged as a worthwhile endeavor by TLG. No, we would be given major revamps, and I was left hoping that the new Nuva would match the old personalities.

"What nonsense," I thought at times. "Set designers don't think that deeply in terms of storyline. We'll be given sets similar in appearance, but ones which lack the closeness to the old personalities." And I will say it now: I was a fool to think this. For LEGO gave us sets that fulfilled the roles of the Nuva beyond my wildest imaginings.

Alas, as sets I find them somewhat lacking. The old parts we have been given are not used creatively, though the new parts are. The sets fail to match each other in style. However, these facts can be ignored when one keeps storyline in mind. I can tell these are the Nuva without needing convincing beyond the names on the canisters, and therefore they are tied to those heroes and subsequently to one another.

I anxiously await the chance to draw them.

@ "shock and anger" ~ And why shouldn't I be disappointed

Hang on a second -- you were the one that said "shock and anger", not me. Those are a lot more intense than "dissapointed."

I've said so many times I get tired of saying it that everybody has the right to dislike whatever their tastes make them dislike. So not sure why you're asking the question.

@ originality and Kopaka ~ Um, Hahli's wings don't look anything at all like a penguin's.

Nonono, lol. That was an allusion to a past debate which I'll assume you didn't read. The debate was whether wings made sense for a water Toa, instead of fins, and my point was that penguins have wings that they use as fins too, so Hahli's wings do make some sense. Not that they are shaped like penguin wings, lol. (I believe that was in the talkback for a review of Hahli or maybe of the Mahri in general or something.)

That is, by the way, the prime reason I hate Kopaka's wings. I usually do not like things so directly taken from Earth and slapped into Bionicle. (And that is entirely my own taste.)

By, "from Earth", what do you mean? Bird wings are from earth too. You mean Earth tech, I assume? Just curious.

But how on earth is the precedent of something's appearance irrelevant to how he/she/it looks after the change? (Takua was a unique case in every way in this respect; let's not focus on him.)

Wait wait wait. Why can't Takua be considered?

Something doesn't have to be absurd to be original – Kalmah's shoulder pads were original when they appeared in Bionicle, but far from absurd.

Actually, they aren't all that original. Shoulder pads are a fairly common concept familiar to almost everybody from common past soldier outfits, etc. Keep "degrees" in mind here. They're not that innovative; just happened to be largely new to Bionicle.

But even within the context of Bionicle, you're missing the point -- within Bionicle, they were "absurd". What that means is, it's something new, something that breaks a pattern that was established before (that's what originality is). There will always be, as BZPower members have demonstrated over and over, those that dislike even something new to Binicle like that. Those that do like something rarely realize that it can be seen as "absurd".

But by "absurd", I mean the really wacky "out there" ideas. Airplane wings on a Toa are a lot wackier than shoulder pads, especially considering that the Nuva introduced shoulder armor. Almost nothing will ever be totally original, as airplane wings, feathery wings, and shoulder pads, etc. all are "from Earth" in some sense or another. But there are degrees of originality, and the more original something is, the easier it is for those who don't happen to like it to call it "absurd."

Actually, boosters mounted on one's arms would be a terrible thing to have during aerial combat, because if you move your arms (as you rather have to) then you go spiraling off...

Actually, manuevering your arms in smart ways would make in-air navigation far easier than something mounted on your back, as that would require either a new mental control power, or you'd have to move your arms to grip controls. You would have to train yourself to only move the arms in ways that control where you navigate.

In addition, most movement of the arms would happen on the ground, with the sword, unlike the gun which could be aimed mostly with the forearm.

It wasn't clumsy at all – look in his CGI movie, in MoL, in all Lewa Nuva's comics – he flew perfectly gracefully.

Re-read what I said:

On the other hand, that takes both elemental energy and mental focus/energy, and is rather clumsy compared to a cool jet.

That refers to mental concentration, meaning in battle scenes. Not to gracefulness of flight. I was speaking purely in terms of efficiency.

Variations on that are fine for effect, but I just think having arms so long they almost touch the ground (like in Hewkii Mahri) just looks silly

I know. But look, this is a perfect example of what I was talking about with absurdity. It looks silly to you because it's intense, rather than mediocre, so that also happens to please the competing taste more intensely.