I kinda like Pohatu's mask, as the original Vahi looked(to me, at least) more like an Olda mask than a Nuva mask. So Pohatu's mask is the "Vahi Nuva".

The Trydax pods being trans. orange is a bit wierd, though at least the Shadow Leeches have axle holes in them.

I noticed that you didn't mention them, so what's your opinion on the Midak blasters?

~D

I think I agree with everything you pointed out here. But I am confused on what you're saying about the Metru eyepieces, because the Mahri all had the same eye color. Are you saying you want a different eyepiece than the Metru or Kongu Inika's? That'd be interesting. (I'd rather have a different head that was more pointed like the Mata heads, not blocky and square like the Metru head that also like they have cheeks.)

On the note of the matoran: I'm looking forward to using their body in MOCs, though it's obvious it can't be for the entire body.

-CF

Pohatu's mask being orange means that it being anything other than the Vahi is simply not an option to me. I don't think anyone can dispute that, if shown Pohatu Phantoka's mask without any prior knowledge of it, they would instantly think of the Vahi. (Whether you can see the Kakama in it or not when told it's not the Vahi is a different matter entirely.)

I'll agree that it resembles the Vahi, but the claim that everybody would automatically mistake it for the Vahi is going quite a bit too far. I had assumed it was a new power entirely. It didn't occur to me when I first saw it that it resembles the Vahi, because the resemblance is at best passing (especially because I've never seen the Vahi portrayed with a visor). I'll give you that I didn't expect it to be a Kakama, although it does bear resemblance to that too, though.

Not much else to say as a lot of that is your tastes. I do agree about overuse of different colors all in one Toa. The red eyepiece with Kopaka especially irks me. Color just doesn't belong on him. Not sure what you meant about Pohatu though; guess I'll have to recheck the pics...

Believe it or not, I like all the Phantoka (I adore Lewa's new Miru), and while I agree Pohatu's Kakama might be a bit too close to the Vahi, it's grown on me; at least the kept the fact that he's a little stocky. And his orange is awesome, to me. I do agree, we should go back to six separate eye colors (although I don't mind the Makuta so much, simply because they're Makuta).

Might be because I'm no MOCist, but the little stuff like thin waists and the like don't bother me all that much. And I LOVE the Makuta's masks. Coolest since Metru, I think.

Aethisyl ~ Vahi Nuva. That works perfectly! (Since the Vahi was designed as one of the original Kanohi, not with the Kanohi Nuva...) The leeches with axle holes are excellent indeed in that respect... Ah, yes, the skyblasters. The reuse of Zamor spheres is absolutely wondrous. The blasters are fine aesthetically– black is infinitely superior to red on a uniform weapon. I wish they didn't come prebuilt, but further judgement, on that point as well, will be made when I actually have one in hand.

ChocolateFrogs ~ They all had orange except for Jaller and Kongu, who had neon green. I'd just like the return of an eyepiece not in those two colors, preferably corresponding to the original colors of the Nuva...

Bones ~ I disagree – it has the same shape (tall, generally rectangular center area, ending just above the eyes, then roughtly triangular "wings"), and exactly the same color, so I would be extraordinarily surprised if anyone didn't think of the Vahi when looking at it. Especially since in all preceding seven years of Bionicle, the Vahi has been the only mask to have only a lower half. Just that most basic shape alone and the color orange are enough to associate it with the Vahi. (You don't even have to include the visor.)

On Pohatu, look at his head – of the five pieces making it up, all five are different colors, four of them attention-grabbing. Of course, the clash between red and neon green is what causes the problem...

Takatu ~ Eh, head-on I see a really bulky, wide torso (accentuated by the wings on Antroz), then a reeeally tiny, one-stud-wide waist... Anyway, I quite like Pohatu's set, red axles aside; the problem to me is that it's supposed to be Pohatu. The masks are most interesting indeed; Antroz's has grown on me, and I do like Lewa's...

*quite wants an ice blue Metru eyepiece*

ChocolateFrogs ~ They all had orange except for Jaller and Kongu, who had neon green. I'd just like the return of an eyepiece not in those two colors, preferably corresponding to the original colors of the Nuva...

 

*quite wants an ice blue Metru eyepiece*

I would love the original Toa Mata's eyepiece colors! Ice blue on Kopaka, trans pink on Tahu, yellow on Gali, etc.

Especially since if you got a new look (um...) would your eye color change with your armor?

-CF

I would love the original Toa Mata's eyepiece colors! Ice blue on Kopaka, trans pink on Tahu, yellow on Gali, etc.

 

Especially since if you got a new look (um...) would your eye color change with your armor?

Exactly, it wouldn't! Which is why such a small thing annoys me severely. As I've mentioned elsewhere, when the Nuva came out, I could tell who was who in the blacked-out picture by eye color alone. Lewa's fine this time around, but if these are the Nuva, why not actually use, at the very least, orange eyes on Pohatu? Two thirds of the Mahri developed orange eyes out of nowhere, but on the Toa who actually has always had orange eyes, they're changed to green!

Pardon my ranting, but it's just the most obvious and simplest thing... Grah.

(But one always feels better after ranting; that's a good thing.)

The thing about the eye colors, to me, is that they're all green, but green really doesn't match well with ice, fire, or stone. Green eyes feel more unique to Earth, IMO, and they can fly with air or water too.

I'm hoping we all realize that the reason for this across-the-board-color is to save money on a tiny part of the set, BTW. Most of these arguments are just "it used to be X way so it should stay that way" which isn't a serious argument if it doesn't address the cost-benefit issue. I can't see the point in demanding six different eye colors, in light of this.

Personally I would like... well, pardon me sounding biased ... orange eyes on all of them. Orange contrasts nicely to me with just about every color. With water especially well, and ice, earth. With fire, it fits the color scheme, and with the new stone yellow or orange, it fits too. The only doubtful one is air, but IMO orange looks okay with green too. Possibly yellow as an alternative.

Or, have two different eye colors each time. One for half the sets, the other for the other. Orange for some, blue for others, etc. Could be a workable compromise, that fits with some other pieces that have often come in two varieties in a set of six.

Bones ~ I disagree – it has the same shape[...] so I would be extraordinarily surprised if anyone didn't think of the Vahi when looking at it.

There's no room to disagree with my statement -- I'm just saying; you said this:

I don't think anyone can dispute that, if shown Pohatu Phantoka's mask without any prior knowledge of it, they would instantly think of the Vahi.

I can dispute it, because I didn't have prior information when I saw it, and I did not think of a Vahi. That's just what my reaction was, so I don't see how you can disagree about what it was. I had no clue what power it was, and as I said, definately did not know it was supposed to be a Kakama. In fact, you're really the only person I've seen who has said they instantly thought of the Vahi.

Everybody else seems to be saying they can see the resemblance, and I can too -- but I'm saying, that particular statement is too far.

So, I guess, go ahead and be extraordinarily surprised.

Especially since in all preceding seven years of Bionicle, the Vahi has been the only mask to have only a lower half.

It may be because I design masks as a hobby, that this fact is irrelevant to me. There's been tons of masks to have upper halves, and when I see a new mask with an upper half, I don't assume it's X past power, for example. Or better example, if I see a forehead shape like a Miru on Kongu Mahri's mask, I don't assume it's a Miru (and in fact, it isn't). I have, in fact, designed some other lower half only, upper half only, etc. mask shapes myself, and I don't see why there should be a special rule that says the Vahi can only use that particular basic concept.

And never in Bionicle has any such rule been stated. It seems like maybe you've sort of assumed one? And again, the visor is an upper half.

But anyways, that's mostly nitpicky stuff. I am already on record saying that I think this Kakama should have had some orange plastic going up on the sides of the visor at least, to make it more recognizeable as a Kakama. If it was a new power, I wouldn't have any issue with this shape at all.

BTW, got to check out Pohatu's head pics in the instructions PDF. Yes, too many colors all in one area. The red +bar especially does it. Although, I note the colors chosen are my main colors; orange, blue, green, and red, that I use a lot on BZP and also in the RPG. XD So personally it doesn't clash all that bad.

But I think yellow eyes would have been better, and the black +bars seemed to work fine before; I'm still not sure why those have turned red. (The blue pins I can understand, but the black ones were recognizeable enough by their shape already, IMO.)

No, no, you misunderstand me – you said I was going too far by making my assumption; I disagreed because I didn't think I was going too far at all.

You're also reversing my argument. For seven years the Vahi was the only mask to be only a lower half, so that was what made it distinctive against the... oh, dozens of other mask shapes we've seen throughout the years. That feature was a trademark of the Vahi, so after seven years of "full" masks (as it were), a second mask that's only a lower half automatically bears a distinct resemblance to the Vahi.

(You also include a visor in the shape of a mask. I don't; if I look at Pohatu Phantoka's head I see a Vahi and a visor, not one mask made of the two.)

But since you've designed other masks that are only lower halves, it makes perfect sense that you wouldn't necessarily assume it's the Vahi. (If that's phrased well enough...) It's just that most people don't do that – to the exorbitant majority, the only mask with only a lower half has been the Vahi.

On eye color, well, yeah, it makes sense cost-wise, but it looses major coolness points to make uniform eye colors. Plus it's lost potential; a perfect opportunity to make ice blue Metru eyes or Kongu's eyepiece in new colors, just gone down the drain... like Kopaka's chest armor...

I think the Phantoka Makuta thing, with them being too thin at the waist, makes sense, actually. They're shapeshiters, and they've taken these forms to be scary and intimidating. Making their bodies all out of proportion and drawing attention away from the lower half makes their upper bodies, with fearsome masks and claws and such, seem larger, more noticeable, and more terrifying. It wouldn't work on anything but a shapshifter, actually.

And personally, I think Photok's mask looks a lot more like the Kakama (original form) than Pohatu Newva's mask.

But I prefer to wait until I have the set in my hands before I start judging.

Pohatu being orange is so much better than yellow-orange, if rather perplexing at first.

Agreed. As I have said many times, my initial hope was for a Keetorange-Avak Brown color scheme, which upon recollection is far too bright.

The fact that Kopaka's chestplate is iron grey is absolute failure, both enough to make me use that term and on more than three levels. One, as Kopaka Nuva; two, the loss of that piece expected to finally be in silver; three, he has no iron grey but lots of silver elsewhere on him; four, Hahli already used that.

While I don't think these facts merit "absolute fail," since for it to do so it would have to look hideous as well, all of these reasons are correct and are all reasons I would have liked normal silver better (I would have liked this on Lewa as well, with lime feet, but that's another story).

So is Pohatu's head – orange mask, ice visor, neon green eyes, and a bloody red axle. It's the red axle that causes it, of course; if he had a black axle it would be fine, or if he had orange eyes.

Truth about the orange eyes... but I'll go into depth about that later. And I tend not to like the Metru forehead to show anyway; this is just another reason to dislike it (though I disagree about the black looking better). Wish visors worked with the Mata head... On a related note, Pohatu's visor should have been orange IMO (Mars Mission/Jaller Inika orange, not the eye color variation).

Kopaka with lime eyes is also bleh – not only is the return of the one-eye-color-per-team absolutely boring, it's even more boring that the two colors (counting the Makuta here) are the only Metru eyepieces Lego's used since 2004 with Lhikan. It would have been nice to break that streak for the Toa Nuva, wouldn't it?

I wish so as well... but the reason I don't mind too much becomes clear later in this post.

The Trydax pods being trans-orange is surprising to me. I'm not complaining; I just think trans-red would have worked better aesthetically.

I like the trans orange... I dunno. Just personal preference, I guess. I wonder what kind of orange it is...

The Makuta are way too thin in the waist for their shoulders.

I think it's fine, though given that they are the same species as the bulktastic MoMN, it would have been nice if they'd had more bulk. Then again, the thin waist combined with the hollow ribcage gives them a wonderfully skeletal look, which in this case suits them.

Pohatu's mask being orange means that it being anything other than the Vahi is simply not an option to me. I don't think anyone can dispute that, if shown Pohatu Phantoka's mask without any prior knowledge of it, they would instantly think of the Vahi. (Whether you can see the Kakama in it or not when told it's not the Vahi is a different matter entirely.)

Two things LEGO could have done which I've come up with: 1)Given him an orange visor, as I mentioned above; 2)Gotten rid of the nose guard-- In my personal opinion, it's an annoying texture anyway. Of course, I didn't "immediately" think of the Vahi, though it would have been nice if he had been the first one to wear it and use it effectively, wouldn't it? Since, you know, Pohatu's awesome, and the Vahi would be an adequate substitute for the Mask of Speed. Of course, it might be less useful, since it's not a Nuva mask... more on that later.

To clarify things that may have been misconceived recently, I'm not objecting to the Miru and Akaku Phantoka as being their respective masks – I just don't think they're recognizable at a glance. As I said at the very beginning, what I thought of them as the masks would depend on how the Nuva acquired the new forms. (The "Kakama," however...)

"Recogniseable at a glance" isn't something I demand in masks, but I can see that you care very much about characters remaining recogniseable by appearance alone.

The Matoran intrigue me, now that clear and multi-pose CGI pictures exist. I don't think they're bad, but I got to musing about them with Alsru and came up with some ideas I'd have liked to better fulfill their potential.

Just commented on those... I note that you didn't mention the difficulties they pose for MOCs and future sets. I hope that means you have plans for their parts...

Aethisyl ~ Vahi Nuva. That works perfectly! (Since the Vahi was designed as one of the original Kanohi, not with the Kanohi Nuva...)

It's funny you mention that... when I first saw the Vahi in that one Bohrok Kal comic, I thought it was a Vahi Nuva. I had to that point not seen the actual mask, and was left to assume that the normal Vahi was the more rounded version shown in prior official pics (that being a prototype form which never actually was released).

ChocolateFrogs ~ They all had orange except for Jaller and Kongu, who had neon green. I'd just like the return of an eyepiece not in those two colors, preferably corresponding to the original colors of the Nuva...

I'd love more eyepiece colors as well, but I can go into more depth on why I would not like it this year for the Nuva later in my post.

Bones ~ I disagree – it has the same shape (tall, generally rectangular center area, ending just above the eyes, then roughtly triangular "wings"), and exactly the same color, so I would be extraordinarily surprised if anyone didn't think of the Vahi when looking at it. Especially since in all preceding seven years of Bionicle, the Vahi has been the only mask to have only a lower half. Just that most basic shape alone and the color orange are enough to associate it with the Vahi. (You don't even have to include the visor.)

The roughly triangular "wings" have been completely reversed, with the triangles approaching a point off to the sides of the mask rather than in the center. Also, the circular texture/motif has been entirely lost except in places where it did not initially exist (which I consider a plague to continuity, as in the case of the "notches" on the (ear?) and cheek of the Akaku Nuva). The "generally rectangular center area" has been replaced by a more wedge-shaped one, which I can only remember one previous mask having-- the Kakama Nuva. And if LEGO didn't make any other "lower half" masks, then there would never be another mask like the Vahi. One could argue that they could make a similar mask to the Vahi under an entirely new name, but if that worked we wouldn't have nearly as many people even today insisting that the Kualsi is not a mask of quick travel, but a mask of stealth. No matter what happens, we'll never get anything new unless someone gets disappointed.

On Pohatu, look at his head – of the five pieces making it up, all five are different colors, four of them attention-grabbing. Of course, the clash between red and neon green is what causes the problem...

The red and neon green has indeed bugged me even in Kongu Mahri-- while black is not much better, red clashes horribly, and I would have much preferred orange eyes for this reason, though another fact makes me appreciate the conformity.

*quite wants an ice blue Metru eyepiece*

*Agrees*

I would love the original Toa Mata's eyepiece colors! Ice blue on Kopaka, trans pink on Tahu, yellow on Gali, etc.

 

Especially since if you got a new look (um...) would your eye color change with your armor?

Exactly, it wouldn't! Which is why such a small thing annoys me severely. As I've mentioned elsewhere, when the Nuva came out, I could tell who was who in the blacked-out picture by eye color alone. Lewa's fine this time around, but if these are the Nuva, why not actually use, at the very least, orange eyes on Pohatu? Two thirds of the Mahri developed orange eyes out of nowhere, but on the Toa who actually has always had orange eyes, they're changed to green!

But keep in mind that many people on BZP (and many not on BZP, including myself) saw the Nuva pics and thought, "Wow! Evil Toa with mutated masks!" LEGO would have had a worse problem of the same sort this year, with people assuming that all the Phantoka are evil, discouraged only by the names! How to fix this issue? Take the 2006 approach-- color-coding! The thing I've always wondered, however, is why the good sets in 2006, like this year, had green eyes and the evil sets had orange eyes, when the opposite differentiation had been seen only a year before in Web of Shadows! The reason can be assumed to be that the Piraka had to have orange eyes, or the red LEDs would have looked weird. Why was differentiation needed in the first place? Because, no matter how much I liked the Inika masks and likened them to the movie-styled masks of yesteryear, they were revolutionary, and if older fans demanded a storyline explanation (something not necessary for '02, since there weren't as many older fans), the younger fans who don't follow the story would be completely lost if the sets themselves didn't make it clear who was good and who was evil.

Anyway, as you said, a good rant always helps. I may be back sometime to further analyze the debate you're having with Bonesiii, since never has there been a debate with so much awesome on each side.

EDIT: The visor on the new Kakama Nuva looks much like a mask, at least to me... the Kakama Nuva had a similar organization of texture, albeit with IMO unnecessary spikes.

No, no, you misunderstand me – you said I was going too far by making my assumption; I disagreed because I didn't think I was going too far at all.

I see. So the surprise has registered already? I wasn't sure if you had caught what I meant the first time; apparently you did.

You're also reversing my argument. For seven years the Vahi was the only mask to be only a lower half, so that was what made it distinctive against the... oh, dozens of other mask shapes we've seen throughout the years. That feature was a trademark of the Vahi, so after seven years of "full" masks (as it were), a second mask that's only a lower half automatically bears a distinct resemblance to the Vahi.

I'm not sure how I reversed anything, since that's basically what I asked if you were thinking:

And never in Bionicle has any such rule been stated. It seems like maybe you've sort of assumed one?

Not that you said "rule" actually; I know what you mean. But what's I'm saying is, I don't think of it as a "trademark" just because it's been the only one for seven years. "Trademark" seems a lot stronger a word than "distinctive," if that makes any sense.

Though as you say, this may just be me since I design masks myself.

But part of what I was trying to get across was, because I design masks a lot, with an eye towards variety, I know that eventually you're going to get bored as a designer making only the standard both-halves design, and you're going to want to fill up some other categories too with some variety.

So that's a point I don't think that can be brushed aside just because it's easier from my perspective to see it -- we are talking about choices mask designers made here. So the kind of perspective they probably see from is important to pay attention to.

You also include a visor in the shape of a mask. I don't; if I look at Pohatu Phantoka's head I see a Vahi and a visor, not one mask made of the two.

Well, I know you're talking about taste here -- but I'm not totally sure how you would arrive at that conclusion. After all, Toa have had Kanohi masks, not Kanohi + visors, since 2001. Gali Mata, to an extent, Nokama Metru, and most noticeably of course the year just before the sets in question; many of the Toa Mahri. It seems odd to, at this point, mentally seperate the visor from the mask when no visor before has been seperated.

I understand, of course, that this is the first (I think) visor that's not "framed" by other plastic, and like I said, I still think an orange plastic "frame" around it would be better in this case. But yeah, it would still be part of the mask, just like a top-down convertible's windshield is part of the car.

This is becoming so much like our former debates. Aanchir is pointing out all the details that were lost (retained in the case of the Miru); I'm pointing out the general appearances that link the mask to the Vahi.

Any mask that's only a lower half by definition bears a distinct resemblance to the Vahi – as I've said over and over again, that was the Vahi's trademark. Any new mask using that can't avoid looking like the Vahi in at least that respect. Of course you can have other such masks; you just have to make it quite clear that they aren't the Vahi through other means.

The orange visor Aanchir suggested is one such means, though normal trans-orange would work with normal orange much better than trans-dark orange would... That way, the visor would look much more like a part of the mask because they'd be effectively the same color.

Well, I know you're talking about taste here -- but I'm not totally sure how you would arrive at that conclusion. After all, Toa have had Kanohi masks, not Kanohi + visors, since 2001. Gali Mata, to an extent, Nokama Metru, and most noticeably of course the year just before the sets in question; many of the Toa Mahri. It seems odd to, at this point, mentally seperate the visor from the mask when no visor before has been seperated.

...I'm not sure what you mean by no visor before has been separated; the Faxon, Volitak, and Tryna were all made of a mask piece and then a separate visor piece. The Kaukau and Rau were each one piece; there wasn't anything to separate. With the Mahri masks and Miru Phantoka, it's much subtler, since their visors were more like window panes. But with the Vahi you have an orange bottom half and then an ice blue top half – it's not a mask piece covering a visor piece, it's a distinct mask and then a distinct visor.

If you look at that and see a single mask made from the two, that's you; I see a mask and a visor. But I really don't understand why it would be odd to see something that exists as two pieces as those two pieces.

Anyway, back from that slight tangent, in addition to heavily different stylization and a heavily different take on the bottom-half shape, color actually is an issue in this case. The Vahi was well-known for existing only in orange (and gold after 2004), so the combined bottom-half mask and orange color automatically suggests the Vahi, even though the stylization could be enough to distinguish it in some other color, black for instance.

So, concluding, I think I hit all the Vahi points. What you really need is a second half-mask (after the Vahi) to establish the shape as not-necessarily-a-Vahi; but I think the "Kakama" is far too close to the Vahi.

What I meant about reversing my argument was that I was talking about the Vahi in relation to the shape that made it different from all other masks; you reversed that by applying that argument to the feature that all other masks (but the Garai) had in common. Any bottom-half-mask looks like the Vahi at least a bit by having that feature, because every other mask but one is a full-face mask; being a full-face mask is not a characteristic that singles out one mask to resemble.

@ Aanchir on the team eye colors ~ Well, I think you have a bit of a set design problem if you can't tell that the Nuva Phantoka's designs are good, whereas the Makuta's are evil, and have to resort to eye color to tell the difference... Thinking the prototype pictures of the Nuva were evil I see easily – their masks looked rather scary in that sickly, mottled red-white color, as did the tools they had in that color. But when you got the full CGI pictures, there couldn't be any doubt, I imagine. With the Phantoka, you have bright colors and smooth designs for the Nuva, then spiky, bat-like (always a symbol of scariness) designs and dark color/black color schemes for the Makuta. The canisters could easily cause some confusion, but just by the can images I severely doubt one would have to pick out eye colors to tell good from evil...

Question, since I haven't seen Web of Shadows in a couple years, what was the differentiation there? I thought they still had different colors of eyes just like the sets did...

So, concluding, I think I hit all the Vahi points. What you really need is a second half-mask (after the Vahi) to establish the shape as not-necessarily-a-Vahi; but I think the "Kakama" is far too close to the Vahi.

Well, don't forget that the original Kakama resembled the Vahi already.

As far as the visor goes, it's pretty clearly part of the Kanohi, conceptually, is it not? Sure, it might be made with two pieces, but it's no different than the Kaukau's visor as far as whether it's part of the mask or not. That visor could easily have been done with two pieces too. Just as a Toa Metru leg is still just as much a leg as a Toa Mata leg is even though the Mata one is one piece and the Metru is more than one.

What is part of a "Kanohi mask" is the concept of it, not the technicalities like whether it is all one piece or not.

What I meant about reversing my argument was that I was talking about the Vahi in relation to the shape that made it different from all other masks; you reversed that by applying that argument to the feature that all other masks (but the Garai) had in common.

I thought you meant that I was somehow misrepresenting what you had said. Am I correct to interpret this as saying, no, you simply were talking about the point I was making?

If so, then isn't it obvious that a counter-argument will be in some ways reverse to an argument lol? But anyways, I think there's been plenty said on that already.

Hopefully we can at least agree that the Kakama Newva is similar to the Vahi, but has differences also, if we can't agree on whether that's too much/not enough, etc, along these lines:

Similarities:

Lower-half is only opaque part.

Orange.

Similar in shape to Kakama Mata.

Differences:

Different details of design of lower half.

Visor upper half.

Whole mask closer to Kakama than Vahi.

To me those don't really seem debatable, although whether it's too much is still debatable. And the way I'm looking at it, the third similarity argues against it being "too similar" to the Vahi, BTW. Since it is supposed to be a Kakama.

Can we agree on those things?

The orange visor Aanchir suggested is one such means, though normal trans-orange would work with normal orange much better than trans-dark orange would... That way, the visor would look much more like a part of the mask because they'd be effectively the same color.

What did you think of my orange opaque frame suggestion for around the visor?