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Size of Aqua Magna


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#1 Offline Jinkmeister

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 12:44 PM

Alrighty, so, I did this math on a topic over in GD. I wanted to bring it here to have my theory debated on. Here's the post:

 

 

Actually, considering space on Earth is only 62 miles up (The Karman Line, which is generally considered the boundry between the atmosphere and outer space), and in several images, it's pretty clear the Mata Nui robot is within the atmosphere of the planet. Since the Mata Nui robot is 7,575.56 miles tall, we'll call the Karman Line of Aqua Magna 7,600 miles. Very rough figure, but we'll roll with it. That would put Aqua Magna at about 122.6 times the size of Earth. That would be an equatorial diameter of 971,574 miles. That equals a circumference of 3,052,290.4 miles, and a surface area of 2,965,526,573,562.4 miles. Yes, Aqua Magna has a surface area of roughly 3 trillion miles.

 

We can take that and make an even rougher assumption that, based on pictures, Aqua Manga is maybe a tenth the size of Bara Manga? Therefore, Bara Manga sits at a healthy 9,715,740 mile equatorial diameter, with a circumference of 30,522,904 miles, and a surface area of 29,655,265,735,624 miles. Consider that the sun has a surface area of 6,087,700,000,000 miles. Bara Manga is about 5 times as large as our sun.

 

Does this math hold up?


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#2 Online bonesiii

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 03:09 PM

Most likely it does not. I must admit I'm not that familiar with any exact numbers on what is considered "space", but it's actually a gradient, not any exact line. I wonder if you're talking about a point where a particle sensor wouldn't find much air? Or the point the eyes see blueing fade away kinda sharply? Or are you just going on robot height?

 

I have been assuming that the head and possibly upper torso of the robot are actually above the "majority point" so in approximate terms may be considered to be "in space". Many images seem to fit that. I'm hard pressed off the top of my head to think of AM-with-standing-robot pics that clearly show the head in the atmosphere. Several Bara Magna/Spherus Magna ones do, but they/it are/is larger.

 

Your logic also seems to depend on the assumption that the ratio of Earth's atmosphere height to its size is the same ratio as Aqua Magna.

 

However, there is good reason to think otherwise. I have shown before that the surface gravity of AM, BaraM, and SM (and presumably BotaM) is virtually the same, and apparently identical with Earth's surface gravity. This plus the fact that energized protodermis (a transformative substance) was inside SM's core are my evidence for a theory that much of the rock of the core has been granted a gravity-absorbing power, so that any gravity over the level of Earth is taken out of the picture. So the smaller AM and larger total SM can both have identical gravity to Earth and to each other, yet both be megaplanets.

 

This should probably mean that the atmospheric thickness is actually closer to Earth's, regardless of the size (but I think maybe a little scaled up, and then a little more on S/BaraM).

 

If so, it appears this would throw your math way off, and they would end up quite a bit smaller than you say.

 

 

This or something similar may be possible, though. Our sun is a fairly tiny star as stars can go. Solis Magna (prime?) may be much larger than our sun, making Spherus Magna possibly able to approach or even surpass our sun in size.

 

Still, I tend to doubt this. I think it's a megaplanet, but more comparable to Jupiter.

 

 

Also, it's questionable whether exact math was ever intended to be possible to calculate for these things.

 

Some say Greg's answer of the height of the robot was just thrown out to make it sound big, and there's a real discrepancy between this figure and the stated size of Mata Nui Island (the island ends up about half the size it should be according to my math). That can be solved without adjusting either number by saying only part of the face actually sticks above water, the "eyeholes" are more like tear-gland holes on either side of the nose, etc. But this remains highly debatable. Probably the easiest way to solve it is to just say the math is wrong and the robot is of indeterminate size (but still ginormous).

 

Even if you could take the giant's size as exact, how could you know any real-world assumption of atmosphere height is correct, even going by eye in an image which itself is not meant necessarily to be exact (plus this seems to vary a little from source to source anyways)?


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 06 2013 - 03:47 PM.

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#3 Offline Jinkmeister

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 03:54 PM

I suppose that's much better logic. I was going off the Karman Line, whichiis what scientistsclearly e to be pretty much the point where Earth's atmosphere stops and space begins. The line is 100 km, or 62 miles. You're correct that it is a gradient, but for these purposes, the Karman Line works just fine. And let's suppose that everything down to Mata Nui's knees is in space. Assuming he's proportioned generally well, that's still nearly a thousand miles. Now, if his height of 40 million feet isn't canon, I'll be the first to say that my math goes right out the window.Now, I'd like to call to mind the video of him standing up. When he looks up, you can still clearly see waves in the water. Now, think back to any images from the Space Station. It's 250 miles up, but you would never ever see waves from that height. And we can tell from the video that the amount of him that's submerged is fairly insignificant. So, on closer examination, I concede that my original math is wrong, and instead put forward that Mata Nui cannot possibly be 40 million feet tall. Now, let's figure out a more realistic height. First, we'll assume he's portioned somewhere similar to humans, at 7-9 heads tall. If Mata Nui (island) is about 303 miles long, 303 times 8 is about 2400. This may be closer to his correct height. But that figure doesn't work for me. If I understand you correctly, you think Mata Nui (island) is only half as big, correct? That's about 150 miles, which leaves you with about 1200 miles. If so, then the planet would still be a good bit larger than Earth, but not nearly as massive as I originally stated.
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#4 Online bonesiii

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 04:14 PM

[color=#000000;]Now, I'd like to call to mind the video of him standing up. When he looks up, you can still clearly see waves in the water. Now, think back to any images from the Space Station. It's 250 miles up, but you would never ever see waves from that height.[/color]

There's another problem there, which highlights that these things were made by artists, not scientists or even story geeks -- it would not make sense for the giant robot to allow significant waves to occur. If they did, every time he landed or took off on an alien world he would create tsunamis that should devastate coastal populations. I think the GBs would think of this (being scientists) and give him an automatic water-element system that absorbs water as he enters it and vice versa down to the molecule probably, to ensure no waves.

 

Also, other videos of the same thing show no waves. So I tend think the ones with waves are artistic license. An artist would tend to think the more difficult job of animating remotely realistic waves would be more accurate and no waves the lazy animation route, but with in-story logic it may actually be the reverse.

 

Although lately I've been leaning more toward something in the middle -- waves, but a power reaches out and absorbs water and/or kinetic energy to neutralize them before they get far.

 

But (as is probably obvious), regardless of plot considerations, I doubt anyone thinks the waves were calculated scientifically by the artists. More likely they were just estimates. Also, those artists did have in mind, clearly, a much smaller robot, but neither does that make their interpretation more canon than Greg's number. :shrugs:

 

 

 

Re: head proportion, my math shows it as (assuming you take this form as canon, which is debatable) 12 heads. Here's the image that shows the image-math estimate on that plus the island thing:

 

http://www.brickshel...island_size.png

 

 

I really am not sure what to think about the island to robot ratio. I lean three ways at once lol (as explained in that image): 1) Robot half the size, 2) island twice the size (I do tend to lean against this as it becomes more of a continent), or 3) both are accurate and the island actually just covers half the face (which is plausible but trickier). In my history retelling I just keep it too vague to tell to avoid the issue. There's also option #4: "Screw math" lol but I like to think some solution is possible. :P

 

 

By the way, looking over your original math more closely, forgetting the actual figures involved, could you lay out some of the actual formulas you chose and why? I'm seeing some steps where you only imply the logic used to get the next number and I wanna make sure I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm sure I could figure it out by running the numbers myself but this'll be easier. :P

 

For example, what's the formula you used to get to "[color=#000000;]That would put Aqua Magna at about 122.6 times the size of Earth" -- is it as I assumed ratio of atmosphere of Earth to size of Earth? Did you just measure how many times the atmo height was over Earth and then multiply Earth by the same number? Also, are you measuring planet size by diameter? It occurs to me that atmo height may not scale up exactly equivalent to planet diameter (really not sure), even without Bionicle physics.[/color]

 

[color=#000000;]Also, when you say at the end that the planet is 5 times our sun (by that old math, again, forget about the actual numbers here; I'm interested in the formulas), is that, as it appears in-context, judging by surface area? Or diameter? I'm foggy on these technicalities but that may make a noticeable difference. Pi and stuff... or something. :P[/color]


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 06 2013 - 04:18 PM.

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#5 Offline Jinkmeister

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 04:38 PM

Haha, it was confusing, yeah. First, I found Earth's Karman Line (62 miles), then assumed Aqua Magness was 7,600 miles. 7,600 divided by 62 is 122.6. So that was the atmosphere ratio between the planets. Then I multiplied Earth's dimensions by 122 to get Aqua Magna's. But as you said, it would be naive to assume that the planets would be proportionally similar (I'm paraphrasing :P) But if the gravity is artificially altered to match Earth's (which I contend it isn't, it's lighter than Earth's. I point at the size of the insects for proof), the atmosphere would conceivably be in a proportionally similar place as Earth's, but if the gravity is lighter, it could be higher. And I got the five times the sun based on surface area data from NASA. So I assume the most likely answer is that the scene of the island breaking off can't be canon, as it would make the island too big?And sorry, I should have been more clear. By waves, I meant the ones that are always naturally flowing in the ocean, not the ones that his rising would have caused. I think a bigger issue would be: How are their climates so varied and similar to ours on a planet that's almost entirely ocean? :P I seem to remember reading that if our ocean wasn't broken up by continents the size of ours, the storms that would firm would completely destroy small islands or a single land mass (the article or show talked about Pangeae)
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#6 Online bonesiii

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 05:09 PM

[color=#000000;]But if the gravity is artificially altered to match Earth's (which I contend it isn't, it's lighter than Earth's. I point at the size of the insects for proof)[/color]

Lol, interesting point I've never heard brought up before. I assume you mean how Nui-Rama can fly? :) However, they're about the size of helicopters which although not the same principle exactly do work with our gravity. And walking insects are irrelevant to this IMO.

 

So, here's my reaction to those two formulas.

 

First, maybe if you could get the numbers for Mars and compare them to Earth, if a formula isn't already available for this you could estimate how atmos do actually size up with increased planet size (assuming equivalent densities of rock etc. :shrugs:). Though this could only be one possibility since the apparent Bionicle physics messing with gravity would still throw this off (even without my theory of gravity absorption per se).

 

And I tend to think of diameter as a better indicator of size comparisons. I really don't know if that's right though. The surface area is useful too, but does that come out the same as diameter ratios? Offhand I don't recall.

 

 

[color=#000000;]So I assume the most likely answer is that the scene of the island breaking off can't be canon, as it would make the island too big?[/color]

I dunno man. I wouldn't assume anything about it. :P

 

 

[color=#000000;]And sorry, I should have been more clear. By waves, I meant the ones that are always naturally flowing in the ocean, not the ones that his rising would have caused. [/color]

Oh. Of course, that, too, is just artistic license almost certainly. :shrugs: Like, you have to show waves so the audience knows it's water, not just some kind of alien blue rock. :P (Maybe not literally have to but yeah.)

 

[color=#000000;]I think a bigger issue would be: How are their climates so varied and similar to ours on a planet that's almost entirely ocean? :P I seem to remember reading that if our ocean wasn't broken up by continents the size of ours, the storms that would firm would completely destroy small islands or a single land mass (the article or show talked about Pangeae) [/color]

What did you have in mind about varied?

 

Yes, a total ocean planet, I would think, could easily have megastorms comparable to Jupiter's spot. Perhaps preventing this is part of what the absorbed (and probably converted into something else) extra gravity energy is put to?

 

Edit: May be worth mentioning that I think early on in my history retelling I throw out the speculation by the protagonist that the atmosphere of SM may actually be much higher than should be safe (due to pressure) due to a sort of gravity layering effect. I forget exactly how I worded it though, that was 60 chapters ago lol.

 

So, taking all these ideas into account (including that we can't rely on artist portrayals of where "space starts" even if we take the robot's height as correct), I find too much uncertainty to have any strong frontrunner theory at the moment. Still, worth continuing to analyze and come up with something likely, for the lulz.


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 06 2013 - 05:13 PM.

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#7 Offline Jinkmeister

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 05:50 PM

Yeah, I'm gonna keep crunching the numbers and see what I come up with :P In the end, I think we need to make the assumption that the Great Beings have knowledge beyond our sciences to construct a planet that bends the laws of physics to their world :PAnd notice how there's no Nui-Jaga or Nui-Rama sized bugs here? That right there tells you that Aqua Magna's gravity and atmosphere are radically different from ours here on Earth. The higher the oxygen content, the bigger the bugs. That means the atmosphere of Aqua Magna is primarily oxygen, not nitrogen like ours. Not sure if this has effect on beings other than bugs, but it shows that Earth and Aqua Magna are not very similar. Another thing I wonder is if they control the magnetosohere, because if it's not an iron core, they would need to, or the planet would be pounded with solar radiation. And I mean that one island has every major climate. That's pretty much an impossibility without artificial intervention.
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#8 Offline XONAR

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 06:07 PM

The Nui Rama and Jaga are both Rahi, and as such are not "naturally occurring" creatures, like the insects of our world are, so I don't think gravity has anything to do with their size. I think its as simple as, that's just the size the Makuta wanted them to be.

 

Also, there was artificial intervention with the creation of the climates on Mata Nui in the form of Energized Protodermis.  :)

 

Are you implying that the atmosphere of SM and therefore AM is controlled by the GBs in some way?


Edited by Trydeltix, Aug 06 2013 - 06:14 PM.

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#9 Online bonesiii

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 06:20 PM

But that assumes that these alien "bugs" work like ours. [Edit: Ninja'd!]The Rahi ones definitely don't -- they're biomechanical. The bug shapes are trivial; they work essentially the same as the biomechanical Muaka or Tarakava, just in a different body format. I can think of at least one giant SM bug, but then who knows how the biology of that actually works? And sci-fi is no stranger to giant bugs even taking place on Earth.

 

Personally I think it's clear that both the surface gravity and atmospheric pressure are the same as Earth.

 

Also note, it's confirmed the Great Beings did not make the planet. There's shaky evidence that "Greater than Great" beings did, though that could just mean the EL's fault for the Shattering. (I've covered this in detail in past posts.) I theorize that in super ancient times, some unidentified species we probably have never met (who I call Original Beings) seeded many Earth-sized worlds across at least one galaxy with EP, and it transformed them into megaplanets with all the gravity itself and may also have made the beings.

 

I also disagree about the oxygen ratio. You're assuming way too much based just on one piece of evidence IMO. Who is to say bugs there breathe in the same way ours do? And there may be problematic side effects with a significantly different air ratio. That said, I don't think it's been confirmed exactly what the air is, only that it's normal matter and no protodermis. Greg may have said "air is like ours" at some point though. (And this could matter to the atmo height, of course.)

 

I personally think there is a noticeable magnetosphere, yes, though exactly what mechanism would cause it with such a radically different core I dunno.

 

There is one thing that might work -- if it was essentially like Earth before an EP transformation and enlarging (powered by, I guess, the EP itself... though the mass increase there gets questionable), then magnetic field change resistance could come into play. Magnetic rocks could solidify in the same alignments as the transformation happened, because fields want to stay the same, and generate electric flow as part of that process. The EP might also ensure this works, and amplify and permanentize the field. So, it could in short be generated partially naturally, partially by a power in the same rock that absorbs gravity (yet another possible use for the converted extra gravity energy).

 

Or it might be purely an EP power or purely natural, who knows?

 

I think the Story Squad actually got a proposal once that was vaguely along these lines although to be honest I barely remember it. But I noticed in relation to that that the particulate from the Shattering that still orbits the BaraM/AM/BotaM subsystem is "pinched" in at two sides in a way that could be explained by a strongly out-of-whack magnetic pole alignment (plus some spin-related spiral arm effects like galactic arms). Of course the real-world reason for that is they wanted it to match the previously established UDD symbol. But it could be evidence of a magnetic field (we could even say the image's alignment was simply non-canon and the pinches are actually over the poles, but that's also shaky).

 

Here's that pic:

 

http://biosector01.c...agna_System.png

 

I suppose, just thinking of it now, perhaps twisted magnetic fields due to the moons might also explain the shape. Strictly gravitationally, though, it's difficult to explain, so I do think magnetics is the best answer.

 

 

Edit: Re: one island -- I presume you mean Mata Nui. Actually it's mostly easy to explain geographically, something I noticed way back in 2001. The only assumption that's needed is a prevailing wind from the south-southwest.

 

This is due to the island's shape, with a massive cliff (seen in MOL, and implied in other media) between the low-elevation Le-Wahi (which being first hit by prevailing winds would get most of the rain, explaining jungle) and high-elevation Ko-Wahi (explaining the cold).

 

Ta-Wahi (which was previously forested before the fire that made the Charred Forest) gets some rain, and Ga-Wahi as well, because that direction of wind still mostly hits them. The lava flow of course is explained by the lower elevation land on the east allowing the liquid lava to head that way, though south could have worked too (to solve this we can just presume that initial EP-caused landforms happened to channel it east and these might not be obvious anymore as the lava has stacked atop this). But neither get as much rain as Le due to those clouds tending to rain out somewhat first in the south.

 

And Po-Wahi is explained by the mountain shadow effect -- the wind is redirected and loops due to multiple mountains, so most moisture either snows out in Ko-Wahi or is deflected to the east and west, missing Po-Wahi entirely.


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 06 2013 - 06:30 PM.

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#10 Offline Jinkmeister

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 06:41 PM

So it really does just come down to artistic license, doesn't it? :P
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#11 Offline XONAR

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Posted Aug 06 2013 - 07:08 PM

We can theorize all we want, but in the end, yes, it comes down to artistic license. :P

 

Edit: About the "original beings", one of my theories is that a race of ancient EP entities created Spherus Magna, and possibly even the entire Solis Magna system.  :D Though the latter is less plausible to me.


Edited by Trydeltix, Aug 06 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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