I completely agree. I personally just find issue with the fact that apparently not helping the fight is on the same level as opposing it.

 

Or something like that, Idunno. I haven't been paying as much attention to the context and nuances of this whole thing as I probably should, so I can only go off of what I read and what the devil on my shoulder tells me to think ()

 

On a random note though I have an incredible amount of respect for how level headed you've managed to keep yourself throughout all this.

 

 

 

I would make some remark about not destroying my dear patriarchy but there's no way I'm even close to -not- being enslaved to L'amour de ma vie so I guess I can't.

 

By the way, I don't suppose you got my PM??? I feel really bad about the thought that I may have been far more offensive at any point than I meant to and actually hurt you in some way collaterally. :/

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please. In fact, I would wager that if there were to be a serious, international effort to pressure oppressive middle-eastern countries into decriminalizing homosexuality and to stop the stoning, murder, and oppression of all gay, lesbian, and otherwise non-gender conformative peoples, the vast majority of my side would support it - and many of us would be vocal and leading the charge. Is that a bit of a lofty goal? Sure. But the vast majority of people would support it, my side included, because only hateful, cruel people love to see oppression and tyranny.

 

I think there is a lot more common ground between both sides on this issue than people may think - we may not support exactly what you do, and I think the bigots and violent people are not just a tiny minority, but a minority that violates the fiber of who we are and what we believe.

I hope I haven't angered or offended anyone with that, I just feel it needs to be said. I'd like to see less anger on both sides and more discussion, because I truly believe that we would be better off with it.

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

I don't believe he ever said anything of the sort, and I'm not really sure where you got that from. As far as I can tell, the main point of his post was that He's concerned about the mentality of "either be with me or against me," because there are many people on his side of the aisle who are willing to defend people's rights to engage in certain activities regardless of whether they approve of them or not, and creating a "be with me or against me" mentality runs the risk of isolating those people.

 

That's all he said. He didn't say anything about wanting to restrict your freedoms if it offends him; in fact, I believe he said the exact opposite.

 

-MT

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

 

Saying "there are worse problems in the world than what you're facing, so stop complaining about yours" is not exactly welcoming us with open arms.

 

 

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

 

Saying "there are worse problems in the world than what you're facing, so stop complaining about yours" is not exactly welcoming us with open arms.

 

 

I never said that either.

 

 

 

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

 

Saying "there are worse problems in the world than what you're facing, so stop complaining about yours" is not exactly welcoming us with open arms.

 

 

I never said that either. I said there are people dying because of who they are, and we need to work together to stop it.

 

 

But you also used it as an excuse to say "See, I'm totally tolerant" while at the same time markedly refusing to be totally tolerant. It doesn't work like that. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

 

 

 

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

 

Saying "there are worse problems in the world than what you're facing, so stop complaining about yours" is not exactly welcoming us with open arms.

 

 

I never said that either. I said there are people dying because of who they are, and we need to work together to stop it.

 

 

But you also used it as an excuse to say "See, I'm totally tolerant" while at the same time markedly refusing to be totally tolerant. It doesn't work like that. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

I don't think he's using as an excuse for anything. He's said up front that he doesn't agree with the practice, but he's willing to support it as a right, and also wants to work to stop inhumane killing of others. Doesn't get much more obvious than that.

 

-MT

 

 

 

 

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

 

Saying "there are worse problems in the world than what you're facing, so stop complaining about yours" is not exactly welcoming us with open arms.

 

 

I never said that either. I said there are people dying because of who they are, and we need to work together to stop it.

 

 

But you also used it as an excuse to say "See, I'm totally tolerant" while at the same time markedly refusing to be totally tolerant. It doesn't work like that. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

 

I never claimed anything about my 'tolerance' other than my personal view is that people of both sides should unite to end oppression.

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

Saying you are "supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please" but "may not all support gay marriage or civil unions," is exactly what Shane was going off of. It's saying there are people who say they want people to live their lives how they want, but don't want to give them the same rights. Those are not people who are being supportive of LGBTQ people. Whether or not you are one of those people, please see the words you wrote and realize the meaning is there. Additionally, please refrain from political discussion on BZPower.

 

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make here. People in the United States suffer violence and die because of their sexuality as well. We should work to end it everywhere, not just in the US or just in the Middle East. I hope no one would disagree with that.

 

In the end, I highly suggest you try to be very careful about how you word things (as I have told you in the past) and try to be more respectful of all members moving forward.