maxim21

I began making a list of all the most recent ones and then saw you updated your first post with really every single snapshot. I will only list what I found that isn't in your list, but only the most recent snapshot, since several pages have dozens of snapshots.

• page 5 / post 161-200 (May 2008)
• page 8 / post 281-320 (May 2008)
• page 21 / post 801-840 (Jun 2009)
• page 23 / post 881-920 (Jun 2009)
• page 32 / post 1241-1280 (Jun 2009)
• page 37 / post 1441-1480 (Jun 2009)
• page 101 / post 4001-4040 (Jul 2008)
• page 112 / post 4441-4480 (Oct 2008)
• page 192 / post 7641-7641 (Jun 2009) (new post)
• page 197 / post 7841-7880 (Dec 2008)

Also, for pages 197 & 207, they are december 2008 snapshots, which mean they are not in the backup. (There is a gap of several months at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009 due to a BZP crash).

I guess the only way to really know would be to get an archive from the BZP admins. It might be worth a try to ask them.

 

Aside from that, I checked several other archiving sites (Common Crawl & Archive.is) and none seems to have enough data to say if these posts still existed at the time of the crawl.

(At least) one page with missings posts is present on wayback archive.

It's page 45 : Great Archives | Wayback Archive

 

The difference (2 messages) is around post #1783. I have no idea why they aren't in the archive, there doesn't seem to be anything abnormal about them.

This is more for more obscure questions, and I recently looked at that chat with greg thing and Lego took that page down

Err... No. Last answer Greg provided was yesterday.

I guess you must be thinking about this article on the LEGO Club website.

You can find the complete list by doing a search on sold items. Here's a link to those already sold.

I don't know if Sailor knew about the translation.

In the case of Plasma, it was never assigned a gender in official media.

Using a French translation as proof is really stretching it.

This is the message is was talking about. I think it's pretty clear.

 

Sailor was focusing on of oft-published facts versus little-published or not published

Well, the message quoted above make it pretty clear that's not the case; the french version is simply excluded from official media and no consideration about sales volume have been made.

 

And just to make this clear: I'm not advocating against people saying the french version is less important for them. I'm advocating against people dismissing it as irrelevant; this part of my message wasn't directed against your opinion - for how much it matters, I also consider less problematic to retcon the french version than the english one - even if I disagree with some of the points you made in favor of it.

 

(The sales volume is also a bit of a tricky point since there's no official numbers - to my knowledge - even if it's likely the english version was published in bigger volume)

 

Just like an author wouldn't normally worry that much about contradicting any translation or same-language rewording as they adapt their story series by themselves, the same should apply to changes proposed by fans. Right?

It depends on the authors and the owners of the franchise, but as a general case, yes, at least for the translation part and for BIONICLE. Not really sure for the same-language rewording part, but it doesn't really matter here. Then, the translation part isn't necessarly true everytime - I think a translation matter to the author when a big part of its fans come from this translation.

 

 

It's a problem only if you think a translation is a rewording.

By definition it is -- that isn't disputable. Different words are used to try to convey the same ideas -- that's a rewording. (Whether the words are within the same language or not.)

 

And yet we are talking about a new idea introduced by a translation, not something a rewording can do. Introducing new idea in a translation isn't something even rare - it's often necessary due to the difference between languages.

 

but "just as official" is where the problem comes in. A translation adding information means information might be added that isn't canon (same with a same-language rewording, and that happened all the time in Bionicle, esp. 2008 sources). This isn't a good example of that, since Plasma's gender as male happens to be canon, but it would be the Hasty Generalization fallacy to go from that to the assumption that all information added by translations would also be official.

You are confusing official and canon. All informations from translations approved by LEGO are official, only those stated by the story team are canon.

 

You're on the right track here. All you need to add to it is one more thing -- which is completely reasonable -- that there's also a distinction between an original work and rewordings/translation. If it was present in the original, it would be present in the wording that all translations and other rewordings work from. Surely it isn't difficult to see how that can have an effect?

The other versions aren't some sort of 'lesser media' from an objective point of view. One can prefer having a version retconned over the other because of subjective preferences, but nothing more.

First of all, I'm an English major, I know a thing or two about what is and isn't an "abuse of language." English allows for describing a container of things by the same traits as the things inside. Now, I don't know why you say that, though you give this as the apparent reason:

Yeah probably not the best wording on my part here. Basically, all I was trying to express here was that the canonicity of something isn't tied to a specific language.

 

Language isn't really the point here -- technically somebody else could make a rephrasing in English of the original canon story, and LEGO could "approve" it, and it wouldn't be canon either (or "as canon"). And in a sense that did happen; there were multiple English sources for some things, and usually one over the other was canon when there was a disagreement.

I think I see where you're going. I still disagree, though. A new official rewording could be more canon than the original one depending on what the story team would state.

 

Then assimilating a translation to a rewording is a pretty poor comparison; it's more somewhere between an original work and a rewording.

 

Currently, the translation is canon on this (remember we ARE asking for a retcon, but one that minimizes changes in actual published works). If it's retconned, the translation will be retconned on that detail, but the original won't.

My point is that it is presented as a retcon that doesn't change any published works. See the SailorQuaoar message that sparked this discussion, for example.

 

The problem with this is, again, the translation adds information. Your wording of this forgets that the original in this case happened to be in English. And I already pointed out to you that it IS about the canon published works and NOT the English ones for the sake of being English -- notice that it's you who disagreed with that, not us.

It's a problem only if you think a translation is a rewording. The way I look at it, you can consider it as a different book, just as official and containing canon informations, so the book itself is canon - I find strange that you come back to implying the french one isn't canon after saying the part from the original BL1 is canon, the added part is canon, and a book is canon if the informations within are canon; am I missing a part of the reasoning?

 

By wording this this way, you're forcing your idea into our mouths, the strawman fallacy. Not a good thing to be doing...

Well, refering to french medias was called "a stretch" by the author of the proposal. I understand that as meaning the french media doesn't matter for the retcon, and I don't see any alternate meaning. And I was talking about the base of the proposition, what the author layed out basically.

 

I was not saying it's the opinion of everybody on BZPower, not even everybody that voted in favor of the retcon - especially given how late this realization was, it would be hypocritical.

 

But again, it IS less than ideal. I'm not asking you to say there's no issue here -- but you should acknowledge IMO that there's less of an issue than if an original source had said it, regardless of the language of that source.

Well, if it was present in the original version, it would be present in more media, so yes it's less an issue - it's just one media instead of several. Then, if that's what you're trying to say, I don't think a translation have less worth than the original (as long as what it states respect what the canon state, of course).

maxim, as I understood it, the proposal was not based on the idea that "we don't know the canon gender of that element" but rather "the canon published works did not specify it, so retconning it avoids messes that others wouldn't." Still less than ideal from that translation, but you need to keep in mind that the translator could have been aware that it was currently canon. The translation still is not canon, though, because the canon work as originally produced didn't mention it (or so I'm being told ).

First, saying a book is canon is an abuse of language; the facts contained in it are, not the book. The language they're expressed in doesn't matter; facts can be expressed in every language. What make facts canon is that a member of the story team stated them to be.

 

In this case, Plasma was specified to be male by a story team member (Greg), and that was used in an official translation (because the language needed it). It's not even a little bit less official than if it was used in an english text. As an official use of a canon fact, it doesn't have any less importance because it's in french.

 

This proposal isn't based on the idea that "the canon published works did not specify it, so retconning it avoids messes that others wouldn't" but that "the english canon published works did not specify it, and it doesn't matter retconning works in other languages since it doesn't affect us". And I find that's a very bad message to send to foreign communities.

 

I think that's basically the same thing as when gravity's gender was proposed for being retconned because it was stated in No One Gets Left Behing and that was just a fan work. All officially approven canon fact is equal, no matter who wrote it, and no matter in which language.

Do you really not know how the books worked? The Story Team gave Greg parameters to follow, and he did that. However, they gave him a ton of creative space to fill in the gaps, make it more alive. Did LEGO ever make a Toa of Plasma set? No. That was Greg's creation. Greg's original intent matters more than anything in cases like that!

 

You know that with Time Trap and (I think) Legacy of Evil, he was given free reign to write whatever he wanted. So long as he told the basic story that LEGO had planned for the year, they didn't care too much what Greg wrote.

I know how the books worked. And I maintain what I said. The translator was just as much employed by LEGO than the author - and her work also had to be approved by LEGO, just like Greg's.

 

Plus, it seems it does follow the author's intent since Greg stated about plasma being male in 2006.

 

Furthermore, if the author original intent is the most important matter for the translation... Well, why does it suddenly become of no importance to retcon it?

In these kinds of languages, when talking about a person of unknown gender, the masculine verb is used by default.

But this does not and should not mean an unknown gender person is always male.

No. In french, when you speak about a specific singular person, the masculine doesn't have a value of unknown gender. It's only if you speak about someone unspecified - for example, in a phrase like "A man needs to eat", masculine can be used with an unknown gender value - pretty much the same as in english. (in case of plural, it's a little bit more complex, but no need to explain since the passage in BL1 is about a singular Toa).

 

If such a rule existed, I think I would know it - I'm a native speaker.

 

 

You missed the point. The French text wasn't the original, and therefore, does not necessarily carry the original author's intent. Translations are not always exact, and since Greg originally wrote it in English, we have to use that transcript as the more official material.

It seemed you missed my point too. Greg's intent doesn't matter that much - what LEGO intend does. And here we have a media, approven by LEGO. Maybe not by Greg, but the authority above Greg approved it. I acknowledge it might be a random choice, or an error - there are some even in the english versions - but I'm not okay with calling their use in a debate a stretch: both the french and the english version have their legitimacy from the same source, LEGO - not Greg.

 

 

 

Just outta curiosity, have you checked other translations?

I'm not aware of any other translations for BL1. The only translations I know of for the BL are the french one (BL1 to BL6) and the german one (BL6 and BL7). There might be a russian translation too.

 

 

Using a French translation as proof is really stretching it.

No. Really, no. That's just saying "your media aren't worth anything" to the french community - and I don't think I have to explain why that's wrong.

 

And translations also have to be approved before being published. So yes, maybe Greg didn't approve that - LEGO, as a company, did.

Given that French generally uses the masculine gender for nonspecific or unknown referents (e.g., in phrases such as Il pleure, "It rains," lit. "He rains"), the use of the masculine gender here really tells us nothing, since the grammatical structure of French is such that it uses the masculine as its default. More likely than not, the phrasing of the translation is simply following grammatical convention. (This does, however, suggest that use of the feminine there would have been an unlikely and bold decision, and so could have actually been positive evidence in favor of the retcon.)

The rule you stated doesn't apply here. The subject ("The Toa") is an individual, not something unknown like in "It rains" (which, FTR, translate to "Il pleut", not "Il pleure"). It doesn't refer to a generic Toa either: it's specific, so the gender have to be defined as the character's gender. For a french reader, this passage clearly state this Toa is male, and not that his gender is unknown.

I just crunched some numbers. Those in favor have 51.61% of the vote.

 

It's the people who don't want this that are a "small amount of the fanbase."

48 people is a small amount of the fanbase. Percentage doesn't matter much here, absolute number is much more interesting.

You are aware that, with translations, English doesn't always have parallels in other languages, right?

Adressing that part was pretty much the role of the "there is no way to know if this was a random choice from the translator or something she saw with the story team/her contact from LEGO." part of my message. Either way, it's still an official media that would become false if this was retconned.

 

I think it would be somewhat wrong if something done by the english community was done to the detriment of other communities.

 

For the exact translation:

Un Toa du plasma n'avait pas supplié assez fort ou n'avait pas révélé tous les renseignements qu'il connaissait. Zaktan l'avait alors entraîné à l'écart. Quelques minutes plus tard, le chef des Piraka était revenu seul. Quand Avak était allé voir de plus près, il n'avait pu retrouver du Toa que des bouts d'armure, un masque qui semblait avoir été à moitié dévoré et des flaques d'une chose qu'il avait préféré ne pas essayer d'identifier.

For the record, here is what it would look like with a female Toa of Plasma:

Une Toa du plasma n'avait pas supplié assez fort ou n'avait pas révélé tous les renseignements qu'elle connaissait. Zaktan l'avait alors entraînée à l'écart. Quelques minutes plus tard, le chef des Piraka était revenu seul. Quand Avak était allé voir de plus près, il n'avait pu retrouver de la Toa que des bouts d'armure, un masque qui semblait avoir été à moitié dévoré et des flaques d'une chose qu'il avait préféré ne pas essayer d'identifier.

I think to that rather late, but there is a piece of official media using male pronouns for the Plasma. It's BL1 translation in french. Yes, I know, that's not in english so next to nobody will care, but that's an official media and there is no way to know if this was a random choice from the translator or something she saw with the story team/her contact from LEGO.

 

 

BZP has gotten a lot of trivial things canonized, but now a few people want to add more girls and suddenly it's a problem.
Funny how this poll wasn't made until something involving gender was proposed.

Actually, it's not the first time people try to lock gen1. It happened with the Toa Cordak canonization, it happened during the "mass canonization" about Toa Mangai. That's nothing new, and no, that's not specific to feminizing BIONICLE.

 

As to lock gen1 canon... The main issue is that it's not something the community can decide. Greg clearly stated that it was something that was up to LEGO, not fans.

I voted "Strong No". I don't think changing a male tribe into a female one is as good way to adress the gender issue. It changes virtually nothing.

 

I think it would be far better to try to adress the gender issue in the story. The last serials actually brought a good way to introduce a change with Orde being male. The Matoran could see his difference as something useful against the new threats of Spherus Magna, and change the "Matoran-making machines" to create multi-gendered tribes. Another way to adress the problem would be through the GBs: if the mission to find them is successful, they might decide to make tribes multi-gendered seeing the Matoran are now sapient, to help them have a more balanced society. Both of these options would have the benefit of having more female Matoran, and to give that a positive connotation in-story.

Liquids are less dense than solids

Ah, so that's why you said that. Well, that's actually false. A solid can be less dense than a liquid; that's actually how something can float on water (or any liquid): if its density is smaller than the density of water, it floats on water.

Pretty sure it was the prototype. Remember, it wasn't stabilized before the discovery of EP -- the prototype exploded and was left there until Mata Nui came along and had it put back together. I think there was something about the GBs having realized by that time that EP could stabilize it and leaving instructions.

Well, there is nothing about stabilizing the old battery with EP on its BS01 page, and neither on the prototype page. On the other hand, it's cited on the GSR page.

 

Back on topic, Thormen's thoughts on a maze-like inner core, as oppose to a solid sphere of pure EP, would require Spherus Magna to be more dense.

I don't understand how you end up with that. I mean, if there was less EP plus a material around the same density as EP instead of a core full of EP, the global density of the core would remain the same, isn't it?

But I'm not sure about that, since wasn't it EP that was said to stabilize the power source of the prototype robot?

Granted the prototype robot was created before the discovery of EP, that's not possible. EP was used to stabilize the power source of the GSR, not the prototype.

 

Also, Exsidian isn't EP-resistant: it's just one of the ingredients the GB used to create an EP-resistant material.

 

If anything, I'm leaning towards what (I think) Thormen is saying: a simple big EP explosion can't fully explain the Shattering. A more complex explosion would also explain better how AM and BoM were sent into orbit - several smaller explosions would allow that more easily than just an enormous one; I also don't think it's a given that the EP was the first thing to explode, especially since it would not really be a chain reaction anymore.

 

I think it's also possible the Shattering had something to do with the elements. It would explain how so much of the water ended up on just one fragment, so much of the jungle on another, so much of the sand and the frost on another.

But fishers, Plasma was never referred to with any gender in official canon.

There is something you don't seem to understand: Greg's answers are official canon, even when they were made on BZP.

Well there we go, there's our opening. Can someone on the LMB petition Greg to make Plasma female then?

If that was to be done, wouldn't it be better to make a poll here before - just to have some kind of estimate for how many people want it/do not want it/don't care?

FTR, the scene with the Toa of Plasma is in BL1. Here's the passage (p37):

Then he remembered a night long ago, an island far to the south, and a Toa of Plasma who didn't beg quite loud enough or share quite enough information. Zaktan had dragged the Toa off. Less than two minutes later, the Piraka leader returned alone. Whenu Avak went to check the situation, all he could find of the Toa were bits of armor, a mask that looked half-devoured, and puddles of something Avak preferred not to try and identify.

A Toa of Plasma is also in Dark Mirror (in an alternate universe, but still; it's in chapter 8):

Kojol fell next, his armor crushed by the Toa's power and his essence incinerated by a Toa of Plasma.

Apparently no pronouns.