maxim21

It seems to be well supported by the face.

I didn't think to this concept art... But the island seems too small. Taking your estimate of 10-12 heads, the head would be around 315 km - granted the island is shown taking 9/7 of the head size, it would make it around 400 km, still 90 km short (18% of the size).

 

My argument about Journey's End being semi-canon was meant to be taken seriously, so let's just assume you found something wrong that one as well, but chose not to post it.

No, there wasn't anything wrong with the logic of your argument for Journey's End. That's really a matter of taste: even if some parts are non-canon, I find it's better to keep as much of it canon as possible. My second point was really for both Reign of Shadows and Journey's End.

 

This reminds me of the Manas Fight from 2001. We had two different sources saying different things (Tale of the Toa vs. Mata Nui Online Game), and didn't get an answer until much later. So much later, in fact, that there was no new media showing the corrected version. This left newcomers in the dark (unless they searched BS01)

Encyclopedia and BL2 were the medias giving the final version, according to BS01.

 

 

Also, maxim, while everyone here is clearly up for a good debate, you don't seem to be actually providing any new information or making any logical arguments in favour of your particular view. You just seem to be shooting down anything other members say and assuming the fact that 'Greg said it' will make everyone agree with you. Bear in mind that the size of the robot is no longer the only thing being discussed here but also the validity of some of Greg's own work. We already have examples of things he got wrong and even some retcons. If you want to convince those of us who disagree with you that this is not one of those mistakes, you'll need to start giving us some sort of supporting argument

That's the thing: I do not claim the 40 000 000 feet robot make total sense. I think the 10 000 000 feet robot doesn't solve the problems we have and so it's not worth it to change something just for the sake of changing it.

 

Plus, I can't see where I used Greg quotes except to show he actually was consistent with the 40 000 000 feet robot.

 

If the 40 000 000 feet was to be marked as non-canon, I would prefer no official measurement to be canon, leaving everybody with the size they want.

 

There are a few others reasons I prefer the written media number beside it being the actually accepted canon one, but they are mainly a matter of taste. One of them is how hard it is to find a real number in visual media, like N.S.M.8 showed:

 

It's kind of heard to tell, but it seems to be around 10-12 heads, with each head being smaller than the island of Mata Nui. If we grow the heads so that all of the island fits on it, and use my larger estimate (12 heads), we get a maximum size of 5869.08 km or 19,255,511.81 feet. That's less than half of the 40,000,000 feet from Reign of Shadows.

That's odd... That would mean the robot is far from 3000 km in the Mata Nui Rising animation? Even using your smaller estimate, 10 heads, it would make a significantly bigger robot (4890 km high). Or it's the smaller version of the island from the concept art?

 

Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

Did you check the Encyclopedia? If that's stated anywhere, it would be there, I think.

A mere mention of the robot being unreasonably huge is less of an issue than a visual depiction of the robot being a more reasonable size. Literary media can be easily modified or ignored. Visual media, not so much.

That's really a matter of preference, there. To me, visual media value impression before accuracy and so shouldn't be taken as more accurrate.

 

10.3 million feet is better because of the island of Mata Nui. We know the canon size of the island (489.09 km x 243.86 km). We know that the island is supposed to cover Mata Nui's face.

This size island covers the face of the 10.3 million foot tall robot; it does not cover the face of the 40 million foot tall robot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with th 3000 km robot, the island is bigger than the face, hiding it entirely, right? To make it at least a little bit stable, the MNR would need to have created massive bedrocks around his head; I think. The island entirely contained on the face of the MNR is easier to manage for take-off.

I don't see why the Mata Nui island would need to cover entirely the face of the robot.

 

This is not narration for the benefit of the reader; this is Makuta's monologue. Why then, is he using imperial measurements (inch, foot, yard, etc.) instead of Matoran measurements (bio, kio, and mio).

 

 

 

This makes Reign of Shadows already semi-canon. Changing the reference in Chapter One shouldn't be that big of a deal anymore.

That's pretty standard and I don't see the issue with Teridax using imperial system. His thoughts are already translated from Matoran to English. That's just part of the traduction.

 

And even if your point was valid, it would still be a problem. Sure, it's all good for those who would know it, but for anyone who would want to be introduced to BIONICLE G1 and would read the serials, the 40 000 000 feet size would be the canon one. It's clearly stated, by someone well-placed to know it.

 

Just because there's been many retcons over the years doesn't mean it's a good pratice. And retconning things now that G1 is over is even worse, since it means the new status quo has no chance to be clearly featured in new medias (since there'll be no new medias).

... Solving the Mata Nui Rising issue isn't reason enough to change the size?

Why not?

Because sizing down the robot create issues for medias where the 40 millions feet size is mentionned - Reign of Shadows at least. Plus, other sizes are depicted in other medias - comics, like I said before - so why this size more than others?

The questions you linked to do nothing but disprove a megaplanet theory.

I really don't understand there. "Far larger" is exactly how I would compare a standard planet to a megaplanet.

 

In the case of a planet large enough to facilitate the construction of a 40 million foot robot, the gravity would be far too great to allow the existence of 7 foot bipedal beings (the way we know them under real life physics) So Greg saying that the planets are far larger than earth and then consequently 'guessing' that the gravity is also going to be far greater does nothing to help back up claims that the robot is 40 million feet tall. Any planet large enough to accomodate such a fabrication would have impossibly high gravity.

Yes, but once again, the same problem exists for a 10 million feet robot.

 

That's my big problem with shrinking down the robot to 10 million feet : the only problem it adresses is the Mata Nui Rising video, it keeps all the problems people give for getting ride of the 40 millions feet size.

 

Back on track, perhaps he didn't specifically state it wasn't a Mega planet, hopefully Bonesii (or Fishers I forget?) could point us to that particular bit of info. If he didn't entirely discount the idea then it is the ONLY way a 40 million foot robot can exist. However, even if he didn't categorically refuse that theory, he still didn't support or endorse it either so SM being a megaplanet is no more or less canon than not as of right now.

Unless there was another follow-up, that's in this post on LMB that Greg "disproved" bonesiii theory.

 

 

2. You also recently said that the gravity is greater on SM than on Earth. Or rather, you said that you assumed so. How can this be possible if everything functions the same. Nothing canon shows it acting any differently, no jumps are different, birds fly the same. Someone on BZP had a theory that something in the core of the planet that was transformed by EP, absorbs the extra-gravity that is over earth-like levels .

2) Again, though, BIONICLE follows comic book science, not Earth science. People jumped and birds flew "normally" on Krypton, too, which had much heavier gravity than Earth.

 

Subsequently this would reduce the planet's gravitational pull by three quarters (Actually I think it would be a whole lot more as the diameter and mass of a sphere are indirectly related, will look into this) thus solving yet another problem with the 40 million foot figure that seems to be on increasingly thin ice!

I don't see the problem that's being "solved" here. If the point is that a 40 million feet robot would crumble under its own weight, the same problem would exist with a 10 million feet robot, as far as current human knowledge goes (or at least mine).

 

To the second point, of course the Agori still can't reassemble the prototype robot by sheer strength. I think Bonesii offered a good solution to this by suggesting some sort of anti-grav effect was in use at the time. This would mean they were simply pulling the components as opposed to dragging them. It's still an impossible task but resizing the robot makes it 4 times smaller so of course it will make it more likely and more believable.

Does it? I mean, I think of it as if Agori were pulling the state of Texas instead of the whole USA. Either way, you need to accept they did something impossible. Both require as much suspension of disbelief.

 

In reality, the battles would've been separated by many miles as soon as either robot took a single step yet in the comic they are shown to be directly above the smaller fight at all times (I think!)

I was also almost sure there were scenes were both battles were shown on the same panels, but no. That's why I took the mountains as a reference point.

 

Therefore I see the movie and CF representations as canon, the GF figure as rejected by the story team

That's the thing. Christian Faber clearly stated his 3000 km representation isn't canon, but just the basic inspiration. I don't think he would have bothered to state it if the story team had chosen the 3000 km representation.

I believe this is essentially irrelevant. As Greg has already poo-pooed the idea of Mega Planets there is no way the three planets can be as big as you're suggesting. It also poses the other problems already discussed including travel times like you mention in your own post. If the robot is 40 million feet tall then the planets MUST be Mega planets which GF has confirmed is not the case

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly, Greg just said that EP didn't absorb gravity. That doesn't mean Spherus Magna isn't a megaplanet.

 

Actually, after searching on LMB, Greg actually confirmed Spherus Magna is far larger than Earth.

 

makes moving the pieces of the prototype robot much easier (canon) not to mention causing the images of said actions to be far less out of scale (media canon).

Err... I can't see how reducing the prototype size by four makes it possible for the Agori to reassemble it only with their physical strength. It's still landmass sized, not something movable by hand.

There's a similar problem with media canon. Sizing the robot four times down still make it way bigger than how it's represented in comics, for example. (They only seems to be a few hundreds kilometers high in the comics - the only reference point I found was the mountains in the background, and they go around mid-calf in several panels)

What if like the Inika build, the MNR is wide, but not very deep. Lame theory, I know.

It would have to be very, very flat. Like a 2m (~6.5 ft) human being 1,27 cm (~0.5 inch) thick. I think this would create more problems than it would solve.

Wait, why would Mata Nui create the Makuta race after being reawakened? Are you saying that Teridax never had a hand in the end of the Matoran Civil War, or that Rahi were not present before Jovan?

He is speaking of Mata Nui's first awakening, on Spherus Magna, just before the Shattering.

IIRC the Brotherhood of Makuta were also common energy hound handlers. (They probably created them in the first place.

Actually, Energy Hounds are the one Rahi we know was created by the Hand of Artakha, and not the Brotherhood.

Hm...

 

It would come closer, though, no?

There would still be hundreds of kilometers "sticking out" of the ocean. (For those not used to metric, 100 km ~= 62 milles)

 

Of course, shrinking the robot does reduce a little bit the problem, but it doesn't even come close to solving it, except if we push it to the point it can no longer have an universe inside.

 

(For the record, keeping the same proportions as before, with its current height, the GSR thickness should be around 1625 km)

I might be missing something, but shrinking the robot down because of ocean depth doesn't solve the problem.

 

If I got the proportions right, a 3150 km tall robot would be around 400 km thick. The deepest part of ocean on Earth is Mariana Trench, and it only go as deep as 11 km. If we keep the same proportion, a 11 km thick robot would be around 80 km tall - which would not work for something with islands inside.

As unpopular as it seems to be, I'm in favor of keeping the robot 40 millions feet high.

 

My first reason for this hasn't anything to do with the story, but rather with the timing. This 40 millions feet thing has been around for 7 years, and was introduced when there was many more people caring about BIONICLE. Adding things to the Gen 1 canon isn't a problem to me, but changing how things were defined? I am not a fan of retcons.

 

I also think the robot height make sense when you think about the thickness of the robot, especially around the head. With Bohrok nests, the maze of shadows, enough "atmosphere" space to allow meteorological phenomenon, Metru Nui, the Archives, a big layer of rock, the Core Processor and then the back armor of the robot, I can totally see a 2 millions feet thick GSR.

 

Given its number of inhabitants and how much "protowater" there is in the MU, the area within the MU doesn't seem overly big (basing myself on the ratio of Faber concept, I took 8 millions feet for width; it gave me 320 000 000 000 000 sq ft including seas - around 2/3 the area of Asia).

 

Just for the record, one of the quotes where Greg said there is millions of Matoran in the MU:

 

 

 

1. Can any being in the bionicle universe wear a kanohi if the wanted to?

1) Wear, or use?

 

1. use

 

1) No. There are millions of beings in the BIONICLE universe -- the Matoran -- who wear masks every day but can't use them. Using a Mask of Power requires a mental discipline that not everyone has or can have.

 

I do not think its construction would be a big problem; the GBs created the Mask of Creation, that can create things out of thin air if the user know how to create them, they probably used a similar technology to create the robot.

 

To sum up what I'm trying to express, I think the GSR make sense as an independant system. But I agree there's a problem with its portrayal compared to Spherus Magna/Bara Magna/Aqua Magna/Bota Magna, especially in art and in 2010. Then, no real ratio or anything was given - to my knowledge - so that's pretty much a question of perception. And given we know Spherus Magna isn't a rocky planet like Earth - given EP and Shatterring - that's pretty much impossible to evaluate its density or its size or anything about it as a celestial object.

 

Let's not forget the prototype robot too, you know the one that was manhandled across the desert by tiny fleshy lifeforms? You try moving something that big with nothing more than ropes and manpower, I don' care how many friends you have it's not possible!

Even though I agree with you about how ridiculous this idea was, I must say it would remain ridiculous even if the prototype was shrunken down 100 times. Something to make that more believable would be good, but shrinking down sizes doesn't help, I think.

If I remember right, the 36 hours-thingy was canonized via the BIONICLE Story Squad. The original announcement topic was on the old BZP forum, so I guess the original source can't be linked, but there's that bonesiii post referencing it. I guess old Squad members will remember it, too.

The Dialogue ends in September of 2010. Your note is from July of 2010. It appears that whatever settlement you have didn't make the Dialogue - it probably was from some topic somewhere.  However, that doesn't fit with my memory of what the Farshtey Feed does - I thought it compiled stuff off of the Dialogue/Quotes topics. At any rate, I'm not finding the supporting words of Greg, and my previous answer does, in fact, seem the most definitive and current.

Actually, it's from January 2010 (18), in the Dialogue:

 

2a. So then this would explain why the alternate Gorast has telekinesis (Kraata Power), and by extension, all Makuta in that dimension, then? In Brothers in Arms, Gorast used telekinesis to lift up Vultraz and slam him into the ground. The Makuta in our universe does not have telekinesis as a Kraata power.

2b. Is it possible that we will see some Kraata powers used by the alternate Teridax that Makuta do not have in our universe in achapter of Reign of Shadows?

2c. So such powers like Darkness, Fear, Anger, etc. Kraata powers, the alternate Teridax would not have?

4. If the Kraata in their universe do not corrupt, what would they do?

5. How would you describe the alternate Teridax's personality?

6. Is he still a biomechanical being or has he evolved into Antidermis?

2a) Right

2b) Don't know at this point

2c) Yup

4) Since I don't plan to show any kraata in action from that universe, I haven't worried about it

5) Beyond what has been in story for him, nothing exists. I don't do character profiles when I create characters, I let them develop naturally in story.

6) He has evolved to antidermis, yes

 

It seems to be related to a previous quote from January 16:

 

Hey GregF, I have a few questions.

2. Does the alternate Teridax from Reign of Shadows have all 42 Kraata powers that the Makuta in the core dimension have?

3. Does he have shapeshifting and telepathic powers?

4. Can he create Kraata, and by extension, Rahkshi?

5. Does he have any tools/weapons?

Thanks.

2) I would say no, most likely some of the powers would be similar and some would be different

3) Yes

4) Yes, but they are quite different from the kraata in our universe, since ours corrupt, etc.

5) Yes. He carries a warhammer.

 

Toa Naho* not Tuyet. Tuyet is doing the business on Bota Magna with the rest of the big bad n scary crew.

No, I mean Tuyet, for this very reason. Naho is confirmed definitely dead. (A shame if you ask me, it would have been really nice to see Lhikan with the rest of his gang in the RS)

Sid's status updated. Anybody else need modification from the current factlist?

Ihu, Jovan, and Nocturn are confirmed to be revived.

The Nynrah Ghosts who mutated Gaardus have also been confirmed to be revived.

 

Kodan and the Toa Mangai minus Lhikan, Tuyet & Nidhiki are confirmed dead. (Even though this one is really hard for the timing)

 

Reysa is confirmed dead.

 

Nikila and the rest of the Toa Cordak are confirmed dead.

 

Greg confirmed plants are not revived by the Red Star, so the Karzahni and the Morbuzakh are definitely dead.

 

The Red Star's teleportation powers have a range of 22,300 miles.

 

The Kestora "insanity" have been explained by them not having the higher sapience granted by Velika to the rest of the MU.

Err... Guardian is listed as revived on BS01. The reference for that, listed on the BS01 page is this quote.

 

As for Sidorak, Greg originally stated he was revived, but later decided Keetongu destroyed him too badly for him to be revived. (The link to the quote was also on the BS01 page)

Munty, I think you should read this post from Greg on LMB (point 4, notably). Greg still have the right to canonize things, given by LEGO.

He might have had power before, and before he said Naho wore the Kakama.

Actually, that's the contrary; before he said Naho did not wear a Kakama. And Greg still have the power to canonize things in G1, that's something he made pretty clear.

 

Polls do get a closer idea of that than just canonizing a suggestion directly, though, so to complain about the polls not asking everybody under the sun is rather unfair...

Actually, that's not totally true. How the poll is done can totally distort what fans think; this poll is actually a pretty good case: when the results were reported to Greg, there was a pretty decent advantage towards the Toa of Earth, now there's almost a tie between Ice and Earth.

 

I'm well aware that's impossible to get a really big portion of the fanbase to vote here, but polls should at least be run so as much of the fanbase as possible could give its opinion.

Well, in the question you quoted in the post just above, Greg stated he knew by spring 2013 and this interview took place in october 2013.

For what Greg said in TTV interview, it's around 8 minutes in.

I don't know if they are planning to bring it back, nobody have told me they are planning to bring it back but if they ever were going to, this would probably be the smartest thing to do.

So which Kanohi have been canonised for the Toa Mangai so far?

I think the only one Greg approved so far was the Mask of Healing for the Toa of the Green.

There has been an interesting question concerning A Thousand Years Untold 2 some days ago. The question have been cut when Greg replied but here's the original post with the question and here is the answer.

 

 

Also, another question. A couple years ago, there was an official S&T Contest called A Thousand Years Untold 2. It was the follow-up to a previos contest called A Thousand years untold, which users submitted short stories about Mata Nui, Metru Nui, and Voya Nui during the thousand years after the Great Cataclysm. The winners were canonized. THis contest deals with other islands which were not revealed at that point (eg. Mahri Nui, Stelt, Karda Nui). Should the winners of the second contest be considered canon, as the contest was intended? The contest description says that was the case.

Re: your last question. I do not recall ever seeing the stories from the second contest, and if I have not seen and approved them, then they can't be canonized.

 

It doesn't seem the Rode is a unique mask. The only quote I found in the old OGD is quite old (october 2006), but state it's not.

 

 

1.are the Rode, Krahkaan, and Olmak one of a kind?

1)No, probably, and no.

 

Actually it had been confirmed that changing Toa Tools require some time to adapt (see this post of fishers64 on a previous topic, quoting the old OGD)

Assuming an adaptation time is needed to use their elemental powers with full effectiveness without any weapons seem pretty logical.

So, yes. Elemental power is weakened by the removal of masks.

There's a point you overlooked. Their tools were taken. And most Toa use their Toa Tools to channel their elemental energies. It's more likely they had problems with their Elemental Powers because of that.