The Curious Case of Bionicle Lava

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Obviously we know Lava exists in the MU. There are lava surf boards, Norik's lava spear, and the blatant showing up of Lava in the canon. So, who controls (or could control) Lava in the MU?

 

We know that Lava can be FORMED from Earth and Fire (from MOL), however does this mean that Toa of Earth or Fire can CONTROLS lava? Or would Fire and Earth have to cooperate to control the substance? Then again, Lava could also be seen as molten stone, so could a Toa of Stone manipulate liquid stone?

 

In my own opinion, it seems that Lava acts as its own separate element. Similar to Water vs. Ice, I’ve wondered about why Lava was never canonized as a separate element considering its existence as a liquid matter form. However it has also been pointed out that Ice may actually deal with Cold Energy, thus warranting its own elemental status. Yet considering it has been present in the story since 2001, I wonder why Lava was never, to my knowledge, explained to be an element or a part of Stone or Earth.

 

I do enjoy seeing Lava as an element in the Expanded Multiverse, but what would all of you think if Lava had become its own element, or whether it is controlled by Stone, Earth, or Fire?

 

What’s been your thoughts on lava in the Bionicle canon throughout the years?

 

Hopefully this topic is not close-worthy, however if it is, I apologize ahead of time.

[bonesiii]

So, who controls (or could control) Lava in the MU?

 

We know that Lava can be FORMED from Earth and Fire (from MOL), however does this mean that Toa of Earth or Fire can CONTROLS lava? Or would Fire and Earth have to cooperate to control the substance? Then again, Lava could also be seen as molten stone, so could a Toa of Stone manipulate liquid stone?

It is liquid stone, not just could be seen as. The most natural way to make lava is for a Toa of Stone to make rock, and a Toa of Fire to melt it. However, the distinction between some of what counts as Earth, and Stone, is just particle size; much of it is the same substance. So a Toa of Earth will suffice (and a Toa of Plasma could be better at melting, although they cannot separate their superheat from the gaseous component). Note that some earth is more flammable than meltable, so Stone will be a more automatic fit for it.

 

Combo elements were established in the comics as including control, so to control lava, you would need one of the arrangements of the above four elements (or Iron I guess, for molten metal version). Possibly to actually control it you would need Pohatu, not Onua, though, because it isn't loose particulate once melted (or you could argue that being liquid it's more like earth, which can "flow"). The Piraka's cooperation-required elemental powers also did this to create a puppet-monster made out of lava that they were controlling.

 

[Edit: Might as well look up which two Piraka did that... *checks*

 

It's Hakann and Avak. Fire and Stone. So confirmed that those two elements working in combo can control it, although technically not confirmed for Toa (but deducible).]

 

In my own opinion, it seems that Lava acts as its own separate element. Similar to Water vs. Ice, I’ve wondered about why Lava was never canonized as a separate element considering its existence as a liquid matter form.

I absolutely agree, but I specifically asked Greg about this, and he declined to canonize it. I forget exactly how he worded why, but this means if you're really curious you should be able to find the quote in fishers' archives. (It was closer to the end of Bionicle than the start, so you'd want to start on that side of the docs.)

 

It does make some sense, in that there's already two elements that deal with heat; three might be a bit much. (Assuming you use the official rules for having a very narrow list of elements. For the Expanded Multiverse we had no problem incorporating Lava as an element; official Bionicle however would run into an issue with making too long a list that's hard to memorize.)

 

Yet considering it has been present in the story since 2001, I wonder why Lava was never, to my knowledge, explained to be an element

It's pretty simple -- because of the inspiration from (though expansion of) the Greek elements, of which Fire was one (not lava) they had to have an environment where fire-themed people fit in, without having actual fire be common. Lava was the closest substitute. So it became closely associated with fire. They did the same thing in LU's Ninjago level with the "fire" temple having lava in it instead of actual fire. (In the EM we solved this conundrum by having the Fire Shard of the Clysmax Shattered planet, the one themed around elemental regions, actually having slow-release flammable gas vents in an extinct volcano, so they live near actual fire. But something like this would probably feel too unlikely for the canon.)

 

Later on they could have added it, but it would seem kind of redundant since now you have two (possibly three with Plasma, though now their Matoran trait has been pinned down and it's not heat resistance) types that might all prefer the exact same environment.

 

what would all of you think if Lava had become its own element

I think I would greatly enjoy it despite the understandable problems with it for canon. A Toa of Lava could do a wide range of pretty cool things, including forming stone structures indirectly.

Edited January 30, 2014 by bonesiii

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Man, when I saw how fast Bonesiii posted in this my heart skipped a beat. I thought the topic had been closed already.

 

Combo elements were established in the comics as including control...

 

Really? I remember that some elements could CREATE combination elements, however, I don't remember Toa controlling them...

 

When Lewa and Gali made a storm, I thought that they just let it do its thing and didn't control it. And when Onua and Tahu made Lava it just sort of dropped on the Rahkshi without any controlling force on it that I could see (outside of the gravity forcing it down).

 

I could be wrong though...

 

But I do agree on the attributes and environments problems. I've tried coming up with an attribute for my head-canonization of the element, but it seems like heat resistance would be the only sensible thing to assist Matoran/Toa/Turaga of Lava in their habitats and around their element. Though as to the environment, I guess Ta-Matoran would be ANYWHERE that is hot, where as Matoran of Lava would only congregate near places with Lava present, not just high heat. But yeah, it would be hard to keep them separate...

Edited January 30, 2014 by Loading...

[bonesiii]

When Lewa and Gali made a storm, I thought that they just let it do its thing and didn't control it.

What they're controlling is the element, or substance, though -- water-dense clouds in air. (Or just "clouds".) Controlling that substance is what generated the storm. They controlled it to spin in a wide circle as well. Lightning strikes came too -- but IMO these were not being controlled. The point is that since it's a fusion of two elemental powers, the result is control only over just that element that is the mix of those two things. Not over a storm in general (despite us fans liking to call it "storm" poetically). So, they did not magically gain the power over electricity to control where the lightning went. But that doesn't change that they were controlling the fusion of their two elements.

 

Likewise, Hakann and Thok clearly actually controlled the lava-puppet.

 

If Greg were to say that control is impossible for Toa, that would be possible (with an artificial limit on the power), but in absence of evidence for that, we should go with the evidence we have which is that elemental fusions do control the result of the fusion.

 

And when Onua and Tahu made Lava it just sort of dropped on the Rahkshi without any controlling force on it that I could see (outside of the gravity forcing it down).

There's no reason you have to control your element; any Toa can just make their element. Examples of them doing that wouldn't indicate that they couldn't control it, unless they were in a situation where they needed to. Likewise, this example of them not controlling the fusion doesn't show that they couldn't, because they didn't need to there.

 

Also, like I said, it's possible Earth + Fire cannot control lava, while Stone + Fire might (since with the Piraka it was the latter formula, and the other reasons I mentioned).

Edited January 30, 2014 by bonesiii

[SarracenianKaijin]

You know how there are metalbenders and sandbenders in Avatar?

 

Well...

[Kopekemaster]

You know how there are metalbenders and sandbenders in Avatar?

 

Well...

 

That's actually a good way of putting it.

But I would have to say that if there would be a Toa (either Fire or Earth) that could control it, it would have to be Earth, because lava is molten rock, not rock-fire or something weird like that.

What I mean is, if a Toa of Fire would be able to control lava, that would mean that he should be able to control anything with any degree of heat in it, because the heat is the only thing differentiating the lava from regular rock.

 

I know that was a weird way of phrasing it, but I think you all understand what I mean.

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You know how there are metalbenders and sandbenders in Avatar?

 

Well...

Yes, however, the Bionicle definition of an element does not put all "forms" of an element under one category as Avatar does. If it did, ice and water would be the same element as it is in Avatar. In the Avatar universe, nearly all natural elements are placed under one of the four elemental categories, earth-fire-water-air. Obviously Bionicle does not follow this system and instead separates many forms of the traditional elements into separate elements.

 

That being said, it's more likely for Lava, due to its non solid-stone or solid-earth like nature, to be an entirely separate element instead of a "style" of either Toa of Earth, Stone, or Fire.

 

At least that's my opinion...

 

 

 

You know how there are metalbenders and sandbenders in Avatar?

 

Well...

That's actually a good way of putting it.

But I would have to say that if there would be a Toa (either Fire or Earth) that could control it, it would have to be Earth, because lava is molten rock, not rock-fire or something weird like that.

What I mean is, if a Toa of Fire would be able to control lava, that would mean that he should be able to control anything with any degree of heat in it, because the heat is the only thing differentiating the lava from regular rock.

 

I know that was a weird way of phrasing it, but I think you all understand what I mean.

Toa of Fire cannot control lava, even though it is hot, because they cannot control the stone particles in it. They could control the heat of the Lava (pull it out or move it around) but the rock itself, in liquid form, would not be under the Ta-Toa's control to my knowledge...

Edited January 31, 2014 by Loading...

[25K Now!]

Lava really seems to fit in a special sub-element category of sorts. It's a combo power, but there's stuff that can control it without combos.

[Kopekemaster]

Toa of Fire cannot control lava, even though it is hot, because they cannot control the stone particles in it. They could control the heat of the Lava (pull it out or move it around) but the rock itself, in liquid form, would not be under the Ta-Toa's control to my knowledge...

 

 

That's what I was meaning in what I said. I was giving the "...if a Toa of Fire would be able to control lava, that would mean that..." as a hypothetical (and opposite to my stance on the question) situation to build up my point.

Everything (except matter at absolute zero, but I think we can disregard that) has a certain degree of heat in it, and I was saying that if a Toa of Fire was able to control lava, he would therefore be able to control anything. We have seen that the second premise is untrue, so therefore he would be unable to control lava.

A Toa of Earth (or Stone, I suppose, seeing that the difference is debatable in this circumstance) would, however, be able to control it, because lava is, in its basest form, merely warm rock.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Master of all Kopekes

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That's what I was meaning in what I said. I was giving the "...if a Toa of Fire would be able to control lava, that would mean that..." as a hypothetical (and opposite to my stance on the question) situation to build up my point.

Everything (except matter at absolute zero, but I think we can disregard that) has a certain degree of heat in it, and I was saying that if a Toa of Fire was able to control lava, he would therefore be able to control anything. We have seen that the second premise is untrue, so therefore he would be unable to control lava.

A Toa of Earth (or Stone, I suppose, seeing that the difference is debatable in this circumstance) would, however, be able to control it, because lava is, in its basest form, merely warm rock.

Oh, wow, I must be blind. Looking back at your post, I can tell that's what you were trying to say...so I'm not sure what I was thinking.

 

Please excuse my quick, ill-thought reply.

[bonesiii]

A Toa of Earth (or Stone, I suppose, seeing that the difference is debatable in this circumstance) would, however, be able to control it, because lava is, in its basest form, merely warm rock.

More likely Stone, but that isn't true in canon, apparently. Stone is solid with large particles. When liquid, there is no actual particle size. Again, you can headcanon things how you like, but none of the four relevant elements (Stone, Fire, Earth, Plasma) actually control lava on their own. That's why it's a combo. It's not warm rock, it's the liquid form of the substance that makes either Earth or Stone (or the SM element of Sand in between them) depending on the size of the solid particles. When liquid there are no solid particles, so that would seem to imply no control, without a Toa of Fire helping.

 

Just wanna make sure that's clear. I know you said hypothetical but the rest of your wording makes it seem unclear to me if you realize that.

 

Of course, it's possible there's a boundary where lava has cooled so much and flows like a thick gel that it might technically cross the boundary into Stone, prior to being technically solid. Unsure. And like I said, maybe you could make the argument that since both solid-particle Earth and liquid stone flow, maybe Earth could control existing lava, but then why, when Onua and Lewa worked together to stop a lava flow, did he have to dig a trench for it instead of just controlling it? It seems clear they cannot, and you need a combo to have any control over it.

 

Edit:

 

Actually, Fire CAN control the heat in everything. But I know that's not what you meant.

Edited February 1, 2014 by bonesiii

[FallenCor]

I honestly can't imagine Lava being anything more than a "combo element." It's too much of a mix of the official Elements. Toa of Iron would have a fun time with all of that magnesium, iron and aluminum; I would think ash would count as Earth, leaving all of that tephra in Rock's domain (which might explain why Onua couldn't do much with it); Su-Toa could utilize all of that gas and such, assuming Bionicle Plasma covers the large range of forms real-life plasma does (which means Plasma could overlap into Lightning, but that's for another time); and, obviously, Ta-Toa would have access to vast amounts of heat. And keep in mind that we've seen only stratovolcanoes in the Bionicle universe, so some Element-users could possibly have more control over Lava from other types of volcano. Maybe Earth would have more control over less viscous Lava??

I'm an artist/writer, not a rocket-scientist, so I'm just throwing out what little I remember of geology, pfft.


Edit: I JUST REALIZED A COOL THING MAYBE? Mafic/basaltic lava has pretty low viscosity, which means more heat, right? It usually doesn't erupt below 1,000 degrees Celsius, and usually comes from shield-volcanoes. Super heat = shield-volcano = Hau = Tahu? I donno, it sounded cooler in my head...

Edited February 3, 2014 by Silverglass