Sir Keksalot Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 There's probably hundreds of works of fiction that lift names, ideas, and even specific folkloric/religious characters straight from other cultures, and yet those cultures don't bat an eye. There is nothing wrong with this. When you write fiction, you base it on what you know or what exists unless you're actively trying to make something hard to relate to. Tolkien ripped off Norse mythology openly and deliberately.There's nothing wrong with basing a work on something already there, the problems start when you take things exactly as they are, as Lego did with the Maori words. Yes, Tolkien based things on real world mythology, but he didn't actually call his characters 'Odin' or 'Loki', did he? Stan Lee did. Are there a lot of Scandinavians upset over this? t's easy to understand why there's so little opposition to this kind of thing when you ask one question: what is the consequence of cultural appropriation? What actually happens as a result, provided it's not done in a way that promotes bigotry or ethnocentrism? Lego and Templar either couldn't come up with really good names or they wanted to have names with meaning, so they turned to existing languages as a result. This is something writers do all the time.I'm not saying it was wrong for Lego to refer to the Maori language at all, obviously you have to start somewhere when coming up with fictional names. I just think that, if they wanted to use the words exactly as they were, they should've (at least) spoken to the Maori about it first to see how they felt about it. I somehow doubt most writers do, anyway; and it's not something worth getting upset over, so I wouldn't expect Lego to even consider that the Maori would get mad, especially given the aforementioned bit about most groups not really caring. How did this really affect the Maori? The result was just that kids were exposed to foreign languages, and now us fans can, as adults, look into and appreciate the etymology of these names and terms. How horrible.The problem is kids don't know the words are from a real language, they just think of 'Toa', 'Tohunga', 'Kanohi', 'Whenua' etc. as entirely Bionicle words and nothing else. This is what I think the Maori were angry about: their words being rebooted as the words of a fictional people/world for a company's commercial interests without any consideration for how they felt about it. The fans would have to find out eventually, as a lot of us did. Plus, the usage of Maori words wasn't toted as a marketing point; Lego needed names for characters, ideas, and places, so they did what writers who also sell their work do all the time and turned to existing languages. The use of fancy terminology in the advertising is never really important; it serves to hold the world and narrative together. My point is that then they'd be a possible racist caricature, which is bad because it encourages ethnocentrism. It's the kind of portrayal of other cultures you see a lot in the early days of American animation, especially when trying to paint other countries as the bad guy.But it can't be racist if the group of people portrayed are fictional (and not even human in this case). It can if it's a deliberate sleight against them that's obviously meant to draw parallels. That's thankfully not common these days, but it's been done; old antisemitic political cartoons tend to depict Jews as "vermin" without explicitly naming them as such, for example. I don't wanna get into racial politics, though; much less on a forum for Lego, of all things. Except Xenomorphs were created on purpose as art by a person for entertainment. They aren't a centuries- or even millennia-old cultural construct used for everyday matters that was not only created by people long dead, but which has changed so much over time that it's not even the original thing anymore.The difference doesn't really matter, I was just using this to show the difference between 'taking inspiration from' and 'taking and using it exactly as it is' (as Lego did with the Maori words). But it does matter. It means the act of "using as is" has dramatically different implications in these 2 contexts. Ripping off the Xenomorphs is profiting off of another artist, of something someone else deliberately created for a specific purpose in recent history, without crediting or compensating that artist. Languages don't exist in the same context. Xenomorphs are owned. The words "puku" and "kopaka" are not.Not legally, but they are owned by the Maori in the cultural sense.Language cannot be owned because culture cannot be owned. If a Chinese toy company makes a line of action figures whose names are English words based on traits relevant to the characters, can the collective of the English-speaking world sue them? Or would it be more rational not to waste our energy on something so inconsequential? If the usage of words and names from other cultures truly warranted a lawsuit, why don't cultural groups sue for that reason all the time? Because even the aforementioned angry Hindu minority didn't take Hi-Rez to court; if they tried, the clearly weren't able to. Quote Rule #1: Always listen to Kek. Rule #2: If you break rule #1, kindly don't. Rule #3: EVERYBODY TYPE IN THE CHAT "AVAK IS A STUPID TRIGGER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) Stan Lee did. Are there a lot of Scandinavians upset over this? I'm not a comics expert so I can't judge this exactly, but I would at least point out that Norse mythology is quite prominent, so many people would probably know that names like Thor didn't begin with the comics. I don't think many people would know the same about the Maori words and culture, given that the Maori are from small islands on the edge of the known world and so not extremely prominent. it's not something worth getting upset over, so I wouldn't expect Lego to even consider that the Maori would get mad I would. If you're going to take something that another group considers theirs and pass it off as your own, a reaction to that isn't unlikely. The fans would have to find out eventually, as a lot of us did. Why would they have to? Bearing in mind most fans move on after just a few years, and those of us who stayed interested for many years are a minority of all those ever interested in Bionicle. And I think it was only because of the Maori action that many people learnt that the 'Bionicle words' were actually Maori words. Lego needed names for characters, ideas, and places, so they did what writers who also sell their work do all the time and turned to existing languages. And swiped a load of words exactly as they were and applied them to fictional things apparently without caring how the people associated with the language felt about that. It can if it's a deliberate sleight against them that's obviously meant to draw parallels. That's thankfully not common these days, but it's been done; old antisemitic political cartoons tend to depict Jews as "vermin" without explicitly naming them as such, for example. Of course people can draw parallels if the people depicted are extremely similar to real world people - but when we're dealing with a bunch of rainbow-colored robot beings with big masks on their faces, it's surely going to be very hard for audiences to make any parallel with real world people. Ripping off the Xenomorphs is profiting off of another artist, of something someone else deliberately created for a specific purpose in recent history, without crediting or compensating that artist. Languages don't exist in the same context. But language is also deliberately created for a specific purpose, and Lego didn't credit or compensate the Maori for the use of their language. Language cannot be owned because culture cannot be owned. No, not owned in the legal sense (as I've said), but culture is owned in an associative sense by the people/area it originated in. I mean, are Samurai and Tengu not part of Japanese culture? Are Pegasus and the Cyclops not part of Greek culture? If a Chinese toy company makes a line of action figures whose names are English words based on traits relevant to the characters, can the collective of the English-speaking world sue them? I think this analogy doesn't work because the English language isn't spoken only by or associated with a specific group of people as the Maori language is; English is now too widespread for its use to be controversial or restricted. If the usage of words and names from other cultures truly warranted a lawsuit, why don't cultural groups sue for that reason all the time? Because even the aforementioned angry Hindu minority didn't take Hi-Rez to court; if they tried, the clearly weren't able to. Often they don't have the money or means to, plus the use of cultural terms probably isn't outright illegal anyway. Did the Maori actually sue, BTW? They might have just contacted Lego and complained in the way customers do. Edited December 15, 2018 by Sir Kohran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Keksalot Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 Stan Lee did. Are there a lot of Scandinavians upset over this?I'm not a comics expert so I can't judge this exactly, but I would at least point out that Norse mythology is quite prominent, so many people would probably know that names like Thor didn't begin with the comics. I don't think many people would know the same about the Maori words and culture, given that the Maori are from small islands on the edge of the known world and so not extremely prominent. It's still lifting someone's cultural heritage for use as your own work. it's not something worth getting upset over, so I wouldn't expect Lego to even consider that the Maori would get madI would. If you're going to take something that another group considers theirs and pass it off as your own, a reaction to that isn't unlikely. That doesn't normally happen, though, mostly for the aforementioned reason that--and I cannot stress this enough--this happens all the time. Why would Lego expect a cultural group to get upset when it's so rare for a company to get in hot water for this? Lego needed names for characters, ideas, and places, so they did what writers who also sell their work do all the time and turned to existing languages.And swiped a load of words exactly as they were and applied them to fictional things apparently without caring how the people associated with the language felt about that. Because there's A. nothing to get upset over and B. no reason to expect anyone to get upset because that's so rare. It can if it's a deliberate sleight against them that's obviously meant to draw parallels. That's thankfully not common these days, but it's been done; old antisemitic political cartoons tend to depict Jews as "vermin" without explicitly naming them as such, for example.Of course people can draw parallels if the people depicted are extremely similar to real world people - but when we're dealing with a bunch of rainbow-colored robot beings with big masks on their faces, it's surely going to be very hard for audiences to make any parallel with real world people. And that's probably for the best. Can you imagine if colonialism got involved in all this? It'd be a much messier situation. Ripping off the Xenomorphs is profiting off of another artist, of something someone else deliberately created for a specific purpose in recent history, without crediting or compensating that artist. Languages don't exist in the same context.But language is also deliberately created for a specific purpose, and Lego didn't credit or compensate the Maori for the use of their language. There's no need for them to do so. Whole religious narratives can be lifted from living cultures with only minor eye-batting and maybe some articles on various tabloids spewing the things tabloids spew; history and culture is not owned. Language cannot be owned because culture cannot be owned.No, not owned in the legal sense (as I've said), but culture is owned in an associative sense by the people/area it originated in. I mean, are Samurai and Tengu not part of Japanese culture? Are Pegasus and the Cyclops not part of Greek culture? They are, but why should their usage require compensation for the cultures who consider that part of their heritage? It's history, it's information, it's not the product of a small group trying to make art. If a Chinese toy company makes a line of action figures whose names are English words based on traits relevant to the characters, can the collective of the English-speaking world sue them?I think this analogy doesn't work because the English language isn't spoken only by or associated with a specific group of people as the Maori language is; English is now too widespread for its use to be controversial or restricted. That doesn't change the fact that it's still part of our collective cultural heritage. If the English-speaking world bands together and says "this is our cultural heritage and we don't want you to use it," are we justified in doing so? Prevalence doesn't change the language's cultural significance. If the usage of words and names from other cultures truly warranted a lawsuit, why don't cultural groups sue for that reason all the time? Because even the aforementioned angry Hindu minority didn't take Hi-Rez to court; if they tried, the clearly weren't able to.Often they don't have the money or means to, plus the use of cultural terms probably isn't outright illegal anyway. Of course it's not; there's nothing that needs protecting. Language, like other cultural constructs, is going to be spread around no matter what. Sometimes, this happens through art. Now that we have the internet, we don't need direct cultural contact for this spread to occur; I can google whatever language I want and get words for it, provided there's sufficient information about it. This is distinct from ripping off contemporary art, where the artist loses their thunder when they get ripped off because they worked on something and aren't being credited for it and because homogenizing something otherwise totally original makes it less distinct. Language, on the other hand, loses nothing from this. Did the Maori actually sue, BTW? They might have just contacted Lego and complained in the way customers do.They threatened a suit, apparently, but it doesn't look like they had a chance to follow through before Lego decided to cave in. Quote Rule #1: Always listen to Kek. Rule #2: If you break rule #1, kindly don't. Rule #3: EVERYBODY TYPE IN THE CHAT "AVAK IS A STUPID TRIGGER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) It would have been interesting to see how the lawsuit would have panned out if they had gone through with it. How would a court decide if they “stole” things that weren’t originally “owned” in the legal sense? Oh, and on the Stan Lee/Thor thing, I remember reading that the majority of Americans didn’t really know anything about Norse mythology prior to the comics. He wanted to make a mythology-based superhero, but by that point, Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythology were so well known that they’d seem stale. So he did take a mostly unknown culture/language and use it as basis for a story. I guess the key difference is that his characters were basically fictionalized versions of the originals rather than entirely new characters. Edit: Come to think of it, while we’re on the subject, some Roman mythology is just Greek mythology with either altered or completely different names, and a lot of people think of those myths as Roman instead of Greek. So people have been “stealing” from other cultures for thousands of years. Edited December 15, 2018 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese 2 Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 It's still lifting someone's cultural heritage for use as your own work. Which I feel is at the very least dubious, though I'd need to know more about how the comics used the mythology before I could say for sure that it was outright wrong. That doesn't normally happen, though, mostly for the aforementioned reason that--and I cannot stress this enough--this happens all the time. Why would Lego expect a cultural group to get upset when it's so rare for a company to get in hot water for this? It may be rare, but it has happened. In the decade before that point, Disney got a bad reaction from Middle Eastern people over the portrayal of Arabs in their Aladdin movie, and from the Greeks over the huge changes made to their mythology in Hercules. Therefore it would make sense to consult with the people concerned when dealing with them or their culture. Because there's A. nothing to get upset over In your opinion as somebody who wasn't affected (I assume you aren't a Maori). The Maoris clearly felt there was something to get upset over. And that's probably for the best. Can you imagine if colonialism got involved in all this? It'd be a much messier situation. I'm not quite sure what colonialism has to do with this? There's no need for them to do so. Whole religious narratives can be lifted from living cultures with only minor eye-batting Yeah, the people involved in Charlie Hebdo got only eye-batting for their handling and portrayals of Islamic content, right? They are, but why should their usage require compensation for the cultures who consider that part of their heritage? It's history, it's information, it's not the product of a small group trying to make art. No, it probably shouldn't require compensation, and I doubt the Greeks or Japanese have been paid for all the movies that have been made about or with their culture - but then, the movies didn't ever pretend the culture was that of a fictional world or people as Lego did with the Maori words. That doesn't change the fact that it's still part of our collective cultural heritage. If the English-speaking world bands together and says "this is our cultural heritage and we don't want you to use it," are we justified in doing so? Prevalence doesn't change the language's cultural significance. I feel it does, as you'll find English speakers in almost every part of the world now. Its use by so many different people means that English just isn't specifically any person or group's cultural heritage at this point, whereas the Maori language remains the cultural heritage specifically of the Maori people because it hasn't spread beyond New Zealand in any significant way. There's also the fact that English itself contains many words that are there almost intact from other languages (French and Latin mostly), so English words are not 'uniquely' English in the way Maori words are. there's nothing that needs protecting. Language, like other cultural constructs, is going to be spread around no matter what.This is distinct from ripping off contemporary art, where the artist loses their thunder when they get ripped off because they worked on something and aren't being credited for it and because homogenizing something otherwise totally original makes it less distinct. Language, on the other hand, loses nothing from this. Whilst languages may not be commercial or copyright property, they do need protecting when they are dying out with the rise of another language, or just aren't spoken by many people to begin with (as is the case with the Maori). Language, when it is of a specific group of people, is or can be an important part of a culture's heritage and its people will probably want to make sure it's not used in a manner that changes it in an undesirable way (as Lego's use for their line of building toys arguably was). It would have been interesting to see how the lawsuit would have panned out if they had gone through with it. How would a court decide if they “stole” things that weren’t originally “owned” in the legal sense? Lego might have actually won on the grounds that (as you say) the words probably weren't the Maoris' strictly legally, but 'big Western company exploits natives and gets away with it' wouldn't be too good for Lego's image, so they may have actually wanted the Maoris to win to a degree. And/or perhaps they just realised their use of Maori culture for their own products without any kind of consultation wasn't right, as I've argued it wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 What percentage of the Maori people were vocally against it? Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Keksalot Posted December 16, 2018 Author Share Posted December 16, 2018 It's still lifting someone's cultural heritage for use as your own work.Which I feel is at the very least dubious, though I'd need to know more about how the comics used the mythology before I could say for sure that it was outright wrong. Thor is the god of thunder. He is from Asgard. His dad is Odin, the one-eyed king of Valhalla. Loki, a trickster and former friend of the family, does some stuff and everyone's like "please don't do that stuff" but he does it anyway. All manner of things from the Prose Eddas are lifted and re-tooled. Stan the Man changed various details to make it usable as a superhero comic, but it's very obviously a ripoff of Germanic mythology. Stan took something he did not create and made something new with it. Marvel later took that same idea and did it with other mythologies, albeit much less--Hercules got a comic sometimes in the 2000s IIRC, and there was a Spider-Man comic that combined him with the West African folkloric figure Anansi at one point. That doesn't normally happen, though, mostly for the aforementioned reason that--and I cannot stress this enough--this happens all the time. Why would Lego expect a cultural group to get upset when it's so rare for a company to get in hot water for this?It may be rare, but it has happened. In the decade before that point, Disney got a bad reaction from Middle Eastern people over the portrayal of Arabs in their Aladdin movie, and from the Greeks over the huge changes made to their mythology in Hercules. First, I wasn't under the impression Agrabah was supposed to actually be a representation of the Middle East. I thought it was like Camelot--a made-up, faraway land somewhere in a part of the world that exists. Second, Disney kind of butchered Greek mythology in a lot of ways and sold it as. You know. The Heracles myth. Like, everything they could have gotten wrong, they did. Obviously the part where Heracles kills his kids might not have made a good cartoon musical for children, but Jesus H. Christ, they literally did not do their homework at all. When you try to represent something from a culture outright and then proceed to A. completely miss the point and B. change literally everything so that the whole thing is totally removed from the thing you're selling it as and lacks everything that made it timeless to start with. Which isn't to say that it's a terrible film (I personally haven't even seen it), but...they made Hades the bad guy! Hades! A bad guy!!! And Zeus is a competent dad!!! And Hera!!! Is just there!!! How do you fail this badly??????? Therefore it would make sense to consult with the people concerned when dealing with them or their culture. In the case of Hercules, it's more because Didnee clearly had no idea what they were doing. If they accurately represented (as best they could, given constraints) the Heracles myth, there'd be less concern from the Greeks and mythology nuts everywhere. Because there's A. nothing to get upset overIn your opinion as somebody who wasn't affected (I assume you aren't a Maori). The Maoris clearly felt there was something to get upset over. Objectively, the Maori were unaffected. They didn't lose anything, nor were they taken advantage of. And that's probably for the best. Can you imagine if colonialism got involved in all this? It'd be a much messier situation.I'm not quite sure what colonialism has to do with this? As the West decided it wanted to eat the rest of the world, it became convenient to paint other cultures as weird and/or inferior--an attitude that had already been around. The arts reflected this in some cases. See: old Disney cartoons where Africans and African-Americans are...well, they speak for themselves. But this really has nothing to do with anything, anyway. There's no need for them to do so. Whole religious narratives can be lifted from living cultures with only minor eye-battingYeah, the people involved in Charlie Hebdo got only eye-batting for their handling and portrayals of Islamic content, right? 1. They're a newspaper making satirical political cartoons meant to say something about the real world. Of course people will react to that in some way. I'm talking about cultural appropriation purely for art's sake, not for satire; though art can be satirical, as with Life of Brian, for instance. 2. The shooting was uncalled for, in any case. Even if it offended people, there's no cause to shoot someone. That's never acceptable. They are, but why should their usage require compensation for the cultures who consider that part of their heritage? It's history, it's information, it's not the product of a small group trying to make art.No, it probably shouldn't require compensation, and I doubt the Greeks or Japanese have been paid for all the movies that have been made about or with their culture - but then, the movies didn't ever pretend the culture was that of a fictional world or people as Lego did with the Maori words. If I had a nickel for every fantasy work that used its own fictional world but took heavy influence from foreign cultures, I could complete my Bonkle collection. Look at the Avatar series, which blatantly rips off Japanese and Chinese culture on multiple accounts, even borrowing bits from other cultures from time to time (Agni Kai is derived from the name of...actually, I referred to Agni in the OP, ironically). That doesn't change the fact that it's still part of our collective cultural heritage. If the English-speaking world bands together and says "this is our cultural heritage and we don't want you to use it," are we justified in doing so? Prevalence doesn't change the language's cultural significance.I feel it does, as you'll find English speakers in almost every part of the world now. Its use by so many different people means that English just isn't specifically any person or group's cultural heritage at this point, whereas the Maori language remains the cultural heritage specifically of the Maori people because it hasn't spread beyond New Zealand in any significant way. There's also the fact that English itself contains many words that are there almost intact from other languages (French and Latin mostly), so English words are not 'uniquely' English in the way Maori words are. Fine, bad example. Language isn't working here. Let's move to national icons. Here in the Colonies, George Washington and the American Revolution are distinct parts of our cultural heritage. They're uniquely American, and we "own" them as much as a culture owns a unique language. Now, let's say a Chinese filmmaker--let's call him Ted--gets really into US history and Tolkien's work. Ted says to himself, "Hey, you know what would be cool? High fantasy with a US revolutionary-era aesthetic!" So he rounds up his studio, gets some funding, and makes a real auteur film with characters whose names are derived from English. Sells it as original work. Now, he's going to profit off of something from someone else's cultural heritage. He is appropriating American culture. Is Ted harming us Americans in any way? Are we being exploited? there's nothing that needs protecting. Language, like other cultural constructs, is going to be spread around no matter what.This is distinct from ripping off contemporary art, where the artist loses their thunder when they get ripped off because they worked on something and aren't being credited for it and because homogenizing something otherwise totally original makes it less distinct. Language, on the other hand, loses nothing from this.Whilst languages may not be commercial or copyright property, they do need protecting when they are dying out with the rise of another language, or just aren't spoken by many people to begin with (as is the case with the Maori). Language, when it is of a specific group of people, is or can be an important part of a culture's heritage and its people will probably want to make sure it's not used in a manner that changes it in an undesirable way (as Lego's use for their line of building toys arguably was). Using Maori words for worldbuilding doesn't worsen its chances of dying off. It's important to cultural heritage, but taking inspiration from it doesn't hinder its use or spread. If anything, it gives a small chance for it to get around a little more. It would have been interesting to see how the lawsuit would have panned out if they had gone through with it. How would a court decide if they “stole” things that weren’t originally “owned” in the legal sense?Lego might have actually won on the grounds that (as you say) the words probably weren't the Maoris' strictly legally, but 'big Western company exploits natives and gets away with it' wouldn't be too good for Lego's image, so they may have actually wanted the Maoris to win to a degree. It was clearly a PR move. The press wouldn't be worth the minor artistic details, especially when there's plenty of dead languages to use in the stead of Maori. And/or perhaps they just realised their use of Maori culture for their own products without any kind of consultation wasn't right, as I've argued it wasn't.It's not right, and it's not wrong. It just is. If you appropriate culture in such a way that harms the culture or the perception of it, then that's bad; if you do so harmlessly or even beneficially, then it's not bad. It's all in how you use it, as with almost any facet of art. Not only that, but it's pretty hard not to do at times, especially where worldbuilding is concerned. Quote Rule #1: Always listen to Kek. Rule #2: If you break rule #1, kindly don't. Rule #3: EVERYBODY TYPE IN THE CHAT "AVAK IS A STUPID TRIGGER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Thor is the god of thunder. He is from Asgard. His dad is Odin, the one-eyed king of Valhalla. Loki, a trickster and former friend of the family, does some stuff and everyone's like "please don't do that stuff" but he does it anyway. All manner of things from the Prose Eddas are lifted and re-tooled. Stan the Man changed various details to make it usable as a superhero comic, but it's very obviously a ripoff of Germanic mythology. Stan took something he did not create and made something new with it. I guess it would depend on whether it was close enough to count as a 'retelling', or just taking preexisting mythology and telling a largely new story with it (like Disney with Hercules). First, I wasn't under the impression Agrabah was supposed to actually be a representation of the Middle East. I thought it was like Camelot--a made-up, faraway land somewhere in a part of the world that exists. If it's not the Middle East, why are there mentions of Allah, and the words 'sultan' and 'vizier'? And the film's city was originally meant to be Baghdad until the Gulf War. And none of the responses from Disney people tried to claim they were depicting a totally fictional culture or people. One of their arguments was actually "Aladdin and Jasmine are Arab!" (IE, we're depicting Middle Eastern people in a positive light.) Obviously the part where Heracles kills his kids might not have made a good cartoon musical for children, but Jesus H. Christ, they literally did not do their homework at all. When you try to represent something from a culture outright and then proceed to A. completely miss the point and B. change literally everything so that the whole thing is totally removed from the thing you're selling it as and lacks everything that made it timeless to start with. Which isn't to say that it's a terrible film (I personally haven't even seen it), but...they made Hades the bad guy! Hades! A bad guy!!! And Zeus is a competent dad!!! And Hera!!! Is just there!!! How do you fail this badly??????? Do you mean all this or are you being sarcastic to make a point? If they accurately represented (as best they could, given constraints) the Heracles myth, there'd be less concern from the Greeks and mythology nuts everywhere. It's not really clearly if they were trying to retell the original story or just using it for a new story. Objectively, the Maori were unaffected. They didn't lose anything, nor were they taken advantage of. They arguably were taken advantage of, by a company using their language for financial gain without any consideration of them. They're a newspaper making satirical political cartoons meant to say something about the real world. Of course people will react to that in some way. I'm talking about cultural appropriation purely for art's sake, not for satire; though art can be satirical, as with Life of Brian, for instance. I don't think the context really matters; the basic point is that when you handle culture or other content that's associated with other people, there can easily be reactions. The shooting was uncalled for, in any case. Even if it offended people, there's no cause to shoot someone. That's never acceptable. The men responsible obviously thought there was cause, just like the Maoris thought they had cause to be upset with Lego's use of their culture, though to their credit they didn't start killing people over it. Look at the Avatar series, which blatantly rips off Japanese and Chinese culture on multiple accounts, even borrowing bits from other cultures from time to time (Agni Kai is derived from the name of...actually, I referred to Agni in the OP, ironically). I see what you mean, but - a bit like the English language - Japanese culture is so widespread that it isn't under threat of being distorted like Maori possibly was with Bionicle. I mean, Ninjago uses 'ninja' in a fictional setting, but I think most people do already know that ninja existed in the real world, so the use of the word 'ninja' isn't really controversial. So he rounds up his studio, gets some funding, and makes a real auteur film with characters whose names are derived from English. Sells it as original work. Now, he's going to profit off of something from someone else's cultural heritage. He is appropriating American culture. Is Ted harming us Americans in any way? Are we being exploited? It would depend how closely the end results resembled the original (real) elements. If there was a character exactly named 'George Washington' leading people exactly called 'Americans', then I could understand Americans reacting to it (positively or negatively). If the character and people had made up names (English or otherwise) and only vaguely resembled anything real, I probably couldn't. Using Maori words for worldbuilding doesn't worsen its chances of dying off. I feel it does, because giving the words new meanings that are irrelevant to the Maori culture/world can lead to the old 'true' meanings being replaced and forgotten. If anything, it gives a small chance for it to get around a little more. Problem is that it's not in a way that has it recognisable as a real world language with the original meanings. especially when there's plenty of dead languages to use in the stead of Maori. Kinda wonder why they chose Maori when Bionicle's overall story had almost nothing to do with the Maori culture and history. If you appropriate culture in such a way that harms the culture or the perception of it, then that's bad; if you do so harmlessly or even beneficially, then it's not bad. And I guess you feel Lego's use was the second? it's pretty hard not to do at times, especially where worldbuilding is concerned. This is more a matter of how you do it and in what situation. 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Lyichir Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) Kinda wonder why they chose Maori when Bionicle's overall story had almost nothing to do with the Maori culture and history. I don't want to dive too far into this debate, which is at risk of overwhelming the actual interesting subject matter of the topic as a whole. But I can answer this—I remember reading that Lego went with Polynesian languages and an island setting to help it stand out from the mainstream European fantasy that was taking off in franchises like Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. Also, I also think I remember hearing that Lego sourced more of the names from a proto-Polynesian language, rather than directly from Maori. The reason the issue arose is because of the extant Polynesian languages, Maori is the one that has the most in common with that earlier language, leading to the issue of certain terms having culturally important meanings to indigenous people of New Zealand. Ultimately, I think Lego's response to that whole kerfuffle was a good one, changing the names that caused the offense to replacements (most of which were homophones anyway). It doesn't hurt anyone to err toward cultural sensitivity. Edited December 20, 2018 by Lyichir 1 Quote Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence Aanchir's and Meiko's brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Also, I also think I remember hearing that Lego sourced more of the names from a proto-Polynesian language, rather than directly from Maori. The reason the issue arose is because of the extant Polynesian languages, Maori is the one that has the most in common with that earlier language, leading to the issue of certain terms having culturally important meanings to indigenous people of New Zealand. Do you know which language this was or might've been? I'd be interested to know if more name meanings could be found from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emily Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 If it was ever said by anyone that Lego took the words from some proto-Polynesian language, whoever said it was misinformed. It was Alastair Swinnerton who initiated the word-appropriating, and while he does say that Maori wasn't his 'first choice' (that was Rapa Nui, which as far as I can tell is no more proto than Maori), he says he used a Maori dictionary. That said, even the initial four words Swinnerton took to name the Toa (Tahu, Gali, Fonua, Lewa) come from a selection of languages - it seems that either the dictionary he had was woefully inaccurate, or from very early on the Bionicle team was comfortable taking from whatever culture they liked without much specificity beyond "Polynesia." Either way, all the languages used are modern and, quite the opposite from being early and archaic, many are in danger of dying out thanks to colonial practices violently suppressing Polynesian languages. Gamilaraay, the language Gali's name is taken from, is already deemed dead, with no fluent speakers left alive today. Quote believe victims. its actually not that hard, and youd look kind of bad if you were to, say, side with an abuser because theyre your friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Mortar Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I know I'm a little late to the party, but I think I found a few more names to add to the list: Lhikan: From Old English læcan "whip, flicker (as a flame)" Dume: Possibly from Lithuanian dūmas "smoke" or perhaps Polish duma "pride" Nokama: Probably from Sotho noka "river" Kotu: From Maori koutu "to dip" Ahkmou: From Lithuanian akmuo "stone" Ehrye: Probably from Welsh eira "snow" Nuparu: Probably from Maori paru "dirt, mud, earth" Makuta: From Maori mākutu "to inflict physical and psychological harm and even death through spiritual powers, bewitch, cast spells" Takanuva: Possibly a mix between Maori taka- "sense of revolution" and Ido nuva "new" Takutanuva: A mix between Maori tākuta "doctor" and Ido nuva "new" Axonn: Possibly from Greek axon "axis" or axe Brutaka: Probably Swedish brutala "brutal" or brute Graalok: From Scottish Gaelic grealach "entrails" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emily Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 nice! not sure on all of those (for example takutanuva is certainly just a portmanteau of takanuva and makuta) but those definitely look like the sources for kotu, ahkmou and probably ehrye as well (that one's tricky since we don't know what the mnogii version of the name spelling was). Nuparu coming from paru would be pretty ballsy of them if accurate since they definitely weren't supposed to be using Maori terms at that point. Quote believe victims. its actually not that hard, and youd look kind of bad if you were to, say, side with an abuser because theyre your friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Mortar Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 A few more I found were Bohrok probably coming from Serbo-Croatian borac "fighter" and Vahki possibly from Finnish väki "power, strength, force" I think Lhii might come from Cebuano lihi "to charm, to invite, to bring good luck" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckschwa Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) So about 4 years ago I started looking into the names of characters, creatures, locations, and items in the early 2001 Bionicle story. Over time I slowly came up with this (nearly complete) list. I had intended to post this earlier, but wanted to wait until every word was explored. But since the community seems to be interested in Bionicle conceptual lore lately, and my work had not gained any new additions for over a year, I decided to go ahead and share anyway. I do not profess to be a language scholar or even an enthusiast. But I do love Bionicle and, thanks to the brand, also have an interest in Pacific culture. It should be noted that, although Alastair Swinnerton claims to have resorted to Māori for his inspiration, there are many other Pacific island languages utilized in Bionicle. I will link my sources at the end of this post. If anyone here is fluent in any of these languages or customs please feel free to correct and/or elaborate on any words in this list! Words with * are up for debate. Either I found no translation from any relevant language or there were too many conflicting definitions to warrant a proper translation. DEITIES Spoiler Mata Nui - island home; Great Spirit Mata (Maori) - face, eye, surface Nui (Maori) - to be large, many, great Makuta - evil spirit, Master of Shadow Mākutu (Maori) - witchcraft, sorcery, spell or incantation HEROES Spoiler Toa - elemental heroes/protectors Toa (Maori) - warrior, courage, champion, bravery, expert Tahu - Toa of Fire Tahu (Maori) - to burn, ignite, set on fire Pohatu - Toa of Stone Pōhatu (Maori) - stone Kopaka - Toa of Ice Kōpaka (Maori) - ice Lewa - Toa of Air Lewa (Hawaiian) - sky, air, atmosphere; to float, swing Gali - Toa of Water Gali (Kamilaroi/Gamilaraay) - water, rain Galu (Samoan) - wave Onua - Toa of Earth Honua (Hawaiian) - earth, land, world Fonua (Tongan) - the whole earth Kaita - fusion of heroes into one being Kaitā (Maori) - large, great Akamai - Kaita of Valor*[1] Akamai (Hawaiian) - wise, skillful Wairuha - Kaita of Wisdom*[2] Wairua (Maori) - spirit, soul LOCATIONS The locations on the island of Mata Nui shed some light into the great secret: that the island is not just named after the Great Spirit, it IS the Great Spirit, slumbering beneath the surface. Each location refers to a body part, typically of the head/face. Spoiler Koro - village Koro (Fijian) - village Suva - Toa shrine Suva (Fijian) - mound or pile of stones used to mark a place; Capitol of Fiji Mangaia - great volcano Mangai (Maori) - the mouth Ihu - great mountain peak Ihu (Maori) - nose, snout Kini - temple*[3] Kini Nui - great temple Kini (Maori) - to pinch, to nip Kini (Hawaiian) - any number indefinitely greater (40,000 or higher), innumerable stars, infinity Bikini (Fijian/German New Guinea) - beacon, as for sailors; surface of coconuts Wahi - region Wahi (Maori) - to divide, to split Naho - Ga-koro bay Naho (Hawaiian) - eye sockets Kanae / Kauae - Le-koro lake and bay*[4] Kanae (Maori) - type of fish Kauae (Maori) - jaw, chin Pala - Le-wahi lake Pala (Samoan) - a muddy deposit in the sea; Black mud from the swamp: to rot/decay Pala (Rotuman) - to be audible; burst open, to have a hole in something Fau - Le-wahi swamp Fau (Tahitian) - type of tree Fau (Rotuman) - cheek (side of face) Kumu - southern islets Kumu (Maori) - bottom, butt, tail-end; to clench, carry in closed hand Kukumu (Pascuan) - cheekbone, knuckle, finger joint Kumkumu (Rotuman) - beard; chin; to rinse mouth with water Motara - northern desert Motara (Rotuman) - forehead Hura Mafa - Ga-wahi river Hura (Rotuman) - to break up (from a meeting), to disperse; to shed tears Hura (Maori) - uncover, begin to flow Mafa (Rotuman) - eyes Tren Krom - Ta-wahi lava break Tren (various European languages) - train Krom (Dutch) - crooked Leva - Po-wahi bay Leva (Rotuman) - hair Tiro - Po-wahi canyon Tiro (Maori) - to look Tiro (Rotuman) - to watch closely (telescope/mirror/lens) Tiro (Tahitian) - to mark, or select a thing Papa Nihu - Onu-wahi reef Papa (Maori) - bed of a lake or sea, earth, shell of crayfish and mollusks Papa (Pascuan) - underground rock; rocky seabottom Papa Niho (Hawaiian) - row of teeth Marn - Onu-wahi tunnels Marn (Turkish) - marl (marlstone, a lime-rich or mudstone made of clay and silt) ITEMS / OBJECTS Spoiler Amaja - story circle A'maja (Rotuman) - to develop a story/theme Koli - Po-matoran sport played with a stone ball Koli (Hawaiian) - meteor Haka - dance Haka (Maori) - to dance Ignalu - lava surfing sport Ignis (Latin) - fire Nalu (Hawaiian) - wave Ngalawa - boat rowing sport Ngalawa (Swahili) - dug-out canoe Makoki - stone keys collected by the Toa*[5] Makoah (Maori) - soft slaty rock Okoki (Rotuman) - badly arranged Mako'iko'i (Pascuan) - kidney Madu Cabolo - explosive fruit Niu Madu (Fijian) - Fijian coconut Cabolo (Fijian) - to make a sudden loud noise Bula - berries Bula (Fijian) - life, good health Vuata Maca - energy fruit-tree Kauvuata (Fijian) - fruit-tree Maca (Fijian) - dry (Maba comes before it in the dicitonary, which is a type of tree) Macou (Fijian) - cinnamon tree bark Harakeke - flax planet Harakeke (Maori) - flax plant Huai - snowball slinging sport Huai (Hawaiian) - to dig up something covered in the ground Volo Lutu - grappling hook / harpoon gun Volo (Maori) - hair Volo (Fijian) - ball Lutu (Maori) - to rattle to attract sharks, cause sound by striking water Lutu (Fijian) - to fall Amana Volo - sphere of dark energy Cakamana (Fijian) - miracle Haamana (Maori) - to empower; to make powerful; bestow authority or power Volo (Fijian) - ball Daikau - carnivorous jungle plant Dai (Fijian) - trap Kau (Fijian) - plant ELDERS It should be noted that some of the region-specific characteristics of the Turaga, such as elemental powers or tools/trades, are used as names for titles and masks, rather than the idea they represent. Spoiler Turaga - village priests/leaders Turaga (Fijian) - man, chief Vakama - Turaga of Fire Vakama (Fijian) - burn Kama (Maori) - to be quick, eager, keen, willing Nokama - Turaga of Water Waka ama (Moari) - outrigger canoe Noka, Nokata (Fijian) - to tie up, make fast, a boat from going adrift Noke (Fijian) - woven basket for collecting seafood Nuju - Turaga of Ice Nuju (Rotuman) - river bank; beak; mouth; to recite by memory/heart; spokesman Nuju (Sudanese) - to lead, tend Onewa - Turaga of Stone Onewa (noun, Maori) - granite/basalt, short weapon made of stone Whenua - Turaga of Earth Whenua (noun, Maori) - ground, land Matau - Turaga of Air*[6] Matau (Maori) - to know, be certain of (noun) knowledge, understanding; fish hook Mata'u (Rotuman) - carefulness, caution; to watch Matau (Tahitian) - fear, dread; accustomed or used to a thing; fish hook Majau (Rotuman) - carpenter Matau (Fijian) - adept; right-hand side; axe used for boat building MASKS Spoiler Kanohi - masks of power Kanohi (Maori) - face, countenance Pakari - mask of Strength Pakari (Maori) - to be strong, sturdy, mature Hau - mask of Shielding Hau (Maori) - vitality; breath, air Kaukau - mask of Water Breathing Kaukau (Maori) - to swim, bathe Miru - mask of Levitation Miru (Maori) - alveolus (air sacs of the lungs) Mirmiru (Maori) - a bubble Kakama - mask of Speed Kakama (Maori) - be quick, alert, nimble Kamaka (Maori) - boulder, rock, stone Akaku - mask of X-ray Vision Akakū (Hawaiian) - vision, trance Huna - mask of Concealment Huna (Maori) - to conceal, hide Huna (Hawaiian) - secret Rau - mask of Translation*[7] Lau (Tongen) - to talk, to converse, familiar discourse Parau (Tahitian) - to speak, converse; the shell of the pearl oyster Rau (Rotuman) - to enumerate; to read/recite/recount (a list of names) Forau (Rotuman) - to travel by sea Rau (Maori) - to catch with a net (fish) Rau (Fijian) - type of grass used for making fishing dragline Komau - mask of Mind Control*[8] Mau (Maori) - to seize, to take hold of Koma (Maori) - axe head made of stone Mahiki - mask of Illusion*[9] Hiki (Maori) - to lift up, carry Mahiki (Maori) - to jump, leap, hop, vibrate; lawn Hiki (Rotuman) - to caricature/exagerate/magnify Mahiki (Hawaiian) - to blow away with puff of the wind Matatu - mask of Telekinesis*[10] Matatu (Maori) - to be watchful, to keep awake Matatuhi (Maori) - seer, prophet, oracle Matatu (Tahitian) - a gloomy face Ruru - mask of Night Vision Ruru (Maori) - owl Aki - mask of Valor Āki (Maori) - to encourage, challenge, incite; to beat, pound, throw down Rua - mask of Wisdom Rua (Maori) - hole, chasm, abyss (where heavenly bodies disappear before returning again); two, second Vahi - mask of Time Vahi (Pascuan) - to pass (of the beginning of a season) Vahi (Rotuman) - to be completed; to be past/gone by (events, time) RAHI Spoiler Rahi - beast Rahi (Maori) - servant; great (either physically or morally) Rahi (Rotuman) - fire Taku - small bird Taku (Rotuman) - duck/goose Taku (Fijian) - turtle Hoto - fire bug Hoto (Maori) - barbed stinger (of a sting ray); to start a quarrel Ruki - small fish Ruki (Rotuman) - fish Kuna - snake Kuna (Hawaiian) - a dangerous sore, itch difficult to heal Makika - large toad Makimaki (Maori) - a cutaneous disease (poisoned skin) Hoi - turtle Ho'i (Rotuman) - to carry Hoi a (Rotuman) - turtle Ussal - large crab*[11] Usa, Usana (Fijian) - to carry the cargo, freight Puku - ussal taxi crab Puku (Maori) - stomach, belly, swelling, bubble; affection Puku (Rapa Nui) - rock, boulder; to feel an urge to defecate or urinate Thali-Whali - pet bug*[12] Waliwali (Hawaiian) - soft, gentle Fikou - large spider Fikou (Rotuman) - hermit crab Vako - rhino Ivako (Fijian) - nail (carpentry), horn (cow, goat) Vako (Fijian) - to nail Hikaki - large fire lizard Hika (Maori) - to rub violently (to kindle a fire) Takea - shark Takia (Fijian) - small outrigger canoe Kewa - large bird*[13] Kewa (Maori) - name in Maori myth (whale) Fusa - large kangaroo rat Fusa (Swahili) - attack, beat Husi - ostrich Husila (Rotuman) - woodpecker (bird) Maha / Mahi - goat Mahi (Maori) - to work Mahi (Hawaiian) - farm Kahu - great hawk Kāhu (Maori) - hawk Kahu (Maori) - cloak Nui-Rama - giant flying insect Rama (Pascuan) - bunch of dry leaves used as a torch when lit Rama (Rotuma) - beware of; to shine Rama (Tahitian) - torch used by fishermen Ramu (Tahitain) - mosquito Nui-Kopen - great wasp Kopena (Hawaiian) - hornet, wasp Kofo-Jaga - small fire scorpion Nui-Jaga - giant scorpion Kofo (Rotuman) - to smoke, to emit fire Reumajaga (Rotuman) - earwig (insect with forked tail); scorpion ('akrava is more specific) Tarakava - giant water lizard Tarakuero (Pascuan) - a fish Tarakona (Maori) - dragon Turukawa (Fiji) - legendary hawk who created humans Tara-kaka (Maori) - bold in robbing Tara (Maori) - tooth (of a comb); rumor Tara (Fijian) - to catch Kava (Fijian) - fish Kawa (Maori) - sour, bitter Muaka - great tiger*[14] Mua (Maori) - god who consumed blood sacrifices Mua (Fijian) - to head for (place, direction) in traveling Ka (Hawaiian) - to hit, strike, throw, smite with a quick hard stroke 'aumakua (Hawaiian) - a family god, often takes the form of an animal (also rocks and people) Kane-Ra - great bull*[15] Kane (Hawaiian) - diety who gives life to dawn, sun and sky. Father of living creatures. Kana (Fijian) - to eat Kanakana (Fijian) - cow pasture Ra (Rotuman) - bough, branch Ra (Maori) - sun, day, sail of a canoe Ra (Fijian) - below or downwind (as a suffix for place-names or a prefix for word combinations to indicate direction); West Ra (Fijian) - "sir" as a title for animals in fables (eg. Ra Vonu = Sir Turtle) Kuma Nui - giant rat Kuma (Rotuman) - baby rat Mana - giant crab Mana-Ko - king mana Mana (Maori, Hawaiian) - authority, supernatural power Mana (Fijian) - mud lobster Mana (Pascuan) - spiritual force; to suddenly appear (as if by magic) Mana (Rotuman) - miraculous; supernatural power; superhuman; power Ko (Hawaiian) - to gore, stab, kill Brakas - monkey*[16] Moa - bird Moa (Rapa Nui) - poultry Vatuka - stone monster Vatu (Fijian) - stone Ka (Fijian) - thing VILLAGERS The original word "tohunga" was replaced with "matoran" after the Māori controversy with LEGO. Many of the early Tohunga names are based around Pacific words respective to their elemental regions. Takua, Nuparu, and Hahli were later additions to the canon, and may not follow the same naming scheme. Later Matoran names, especially those that appear in Templar Studios' Mata Nui Online Game 2, are based on elementally themed words from various languages. Spoiler Tohunga - villagers Tohunga (Maori) - to be expert, proficient, adept Tohunga (Maori) - priest, wizard, skilled person Lhii - legendary surfer Wii (Kamilaroi) - fire; firewood Ihi (Tahitian) - skill, wisdom, dexterity Taipu - Onu-matoran Taipu (Maori) - heap, pile, stack; sandhill Kapura - Ta-matoran Kapura (Maori) - fire, flashlight Huki - Po-matoran Huki (Maori) - to roast on a spit; to avenge Hukihuki (Maori) - to contract suddenly, as the muscles (shake) Huke (Maori) - to dig up Tuki (Maori) - to hammer, beat, pound with a stone; header (soccer) Huki (Rapa Nui) - to strike, or digging stick Maku - Ga-matoran Maku (Maori) - be wet, moist, damp; dampness, moisture Onepu - Onu-Matoran Onepu (Maori) - sand Kongu - Le-matoran Kongu (Maori) - to be cloudy, overcast Tamaru - Le-matoran Tamaru (Maori) - to be shady, cloudy Matoro - Ko-matoran Matoro (Maori) - to woo, visit, investigate Matoro (Hawaiian) - to approach on hands and knees before a chief Matoru (Tahitian) - to be inured to hardship Kopeke - Ko-matoran Kopeke (Maori) - cold, winter Jala - Ta-matoran Jala (Rotuman) - to set fire to (grass), to burn Kotu - Ga-matoran Kotutu (Maori) - basket used for catching fish Hafu - Po-matoran Hafu (Rotuman) - brick; made of stone; jewel; slate writing; tombstone Nuparu - Onu-matoran Paru (Maori) - dirt, mud, earth; sewage; (stative) dirty, muddy Hahli - Ga-matoran Hali (Hawaiian) - to carry, fetch, bear Takua - Ta-matoran Chronicler Takua (Tongan) - to mention, call by name Takua (Maori) - a kind of goatfish, a good bait for dropline fishing Kua (Hawaiian) - the back of a person GA-MATORAN Spoiler Kai Kai (Hawaiian) - the sea Kailani Kai (Hawaiian) - the sea Lani (Hawaiian) - the sky, heavens Marka Marka (Finnish) - wet Marka (African name) - steady rain Pelagia Pelagos (Greek) - of the sea, marine; a genus of jellyfish Okoth Okoth (Kenyan Name) - born when it was raining Amaya Amaya (Arabic name) - night rain Shasa Shasa (African name) - precious water Nireta Nireta (Greek name) - from the sea Nixie Nixie (Germanic myth) - shape-shifting water spirit Vhisola Visola (African name) - longings are waterfalls PO-MATORAN Spoiler Golyo Golyo (Hungarian) - ball Kamen Kamen (Slavic) - stone Kamen (Japanese) - mask Ally Ally (Celtic name) - stone, harmony, noble Piatra Piatra (Romanian) - stone Kivi Kivi (Finnish name) - stone Bour Bower (African) - rock Pekka Pekka (Finnish name for Peter) - rock Epena Epena (Hawaiian name) - stone Gadjati Gadjati (Serbian) - to pelt with stones Ahkmou Akmuo (Lithuanian) - stone A'mou (Rotuman) - to make firm Podu Podu (Romanian) - the bridge Podu (Telugu) - clearing forest by burning to provide cropland TA-MATORAN Spoiler Aft Aft (Albanian) - warmth from a fire Agni Agni (Hindu god) - fire Aodhan Aed, Adhan (Old Irish, Scottish Gaelic) - fire Brander Brander (English) - hot iron used for marking Brand (Dutch) - burner Keahi Keahi (Hawaiin) - fire Maglya Maglya (Hungarian) - bonfire Nuri / Nuhrii Nuri (Hebrew) - my fire Tiribomba Tiribombe (Romanian) - firecracker, also carousel/ferris wheel ride Tiritiri (Rotuman) - signal bonfire Vohon Vohon (Ukranian) - fire Kalama Kalama (Hawaiian) - flaming torch LE-MATORAN Spoiler Boreas Boreas (Greek god) - god of North wind Kumo Kumo (Japanese) - cloud Makani Makani (Hawaiian name) - wind Sanso Sanso (Japanese) - oxygen Shu Shu (Egyptian god) - god of air Taiki Taiki (Japanese) - air, atmosphere; could also mean "big tree" Taiki (Maori) - wicker basket Tuuli Tuuli (Finnish) - wind Vira Uvira (Tahitain) - lightning*[17] Vira (Swedish) - to wind or roll*[18] Vira (Czech) - faith Orkahm / Orkan Orkan (German) - hurricane ONU-MATORAN Spoiler Aiyetoro Aiyetoro (African name) - peace on earth Akamu Akamu (Hawaiian name) - red earth Azibo Azibo (African name) - earth Damek Damek (Hebrew name, form of Adam) - earth Dosne Dosne (Celtic name) - from the sand hill Kaj Kaj (Danish name) - earth Mamru / Mamoru Mamoru (Japanese name) - earth Tehutti Tehuti (Egyptian god Thoth) - scribe of the underworld Zemya Zemya (Bulgarian) - land Nobua / Tamariki Tamariki (Maori) - children*[19] Nobu (Japanese name) - faith Nabu (Fijian) - gift brought to a teller of tales, ancient stories, usually by appreciative youngsters KO-MATORAN Spoiler Arktinen Arktinen (Finnish) - arctic Jaa Jaa (Finnish) - ice Jaatiko Jaatiko (Finnish) - glacier Kantai Kantai (Japanese) - frigid zone or belt Kantai (Finnish) - bear Kokkan Kokkan (Japanese) - severe cold Kylma Kylma (Finnish) - cold Lumi Lumi (Finnish) - snow Pakastaa Pakastaa (Finnish) - freeze Talvi Talvi (Finnish) - winter Toudo Toudo (Japanese) - frozen soil Ehrye Eira (Welsh) - snow*[20] SOURCES https://maoridictionary.co.nz/ https://books.google.com/books?id=9KUTAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false http://wehewehe.org/gsdl2.85/cgi-bin/hdict?l=en http://kohaumotu.org/Rongorongo/index.html http://www.rotuma.net/os/English-Rotuman_wordlist.pdf https://books.google.com/books?id=61JF9QEzfrkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=P9VIDPfc6LQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false https://www.dnathan.com/language/gamilaraay/dictionary/GAMDICTF.HTM https://archive.org/stream/tahitianenglishd00davirich/tahitianenglishd00davirich_djvu.txt [1] It is possible that the names of Akamai and Wairuha had been switched by accident. [2] It is possible that the names of Akamai and Wairuha had been switched by accident. [3] Needs better translation. Could be referring to a general apex/point/peak situated atop an outcropping, dome, or mountain. [4] Kauae was the original name of Le-koro's bay. It was later changed to Kanae. [5] Needs better translation [6] It is possible that Matau was a named considered for the Turaga of Water, since "fish hook" seems to appear as the most common translation. Although the Fijian and Rotuma translations could imply that he carves boats from the jungle trees. Whether these are used for crossing swamps or seas, by Le-matoran or others, is unclear. [7] It is possible that the Kanohi Rau is named after the water related trades of its most notable wearer: Turaga Nokama, rather than the power of translation. [8] It is possible that the Kanohi Komau is named after the tool/staff belonging to the most notable wearer of said mask: Turaga Onewa, rather than the power of mind control. [9] It is possible that the Kanohi Mahiki is named after the elemental powers of the Turaga of Air, Matau (its most notable wearer), rather than the power of illusion. [10] Could be named after the shape of the mask, rather than its power. [11] I'm not convinced this is the translation that inspired the name, but it is close. [12] Needs better translation [13] Needs better translation [14] Needs better translation. [15] Could mean "Mr. Cow" in Fijian [16] Need translation. [17] Incidentally, the Tahitian word Uvihi means "light whistling of the wind" [18] Possibly mistaken for "wind/breeze" [19] Tamariki was original name of Nobua in Legend of Mata Nui PC game. [20] Not convinced this is taken from the translation. Edited August 30, 2022 by chuckschwa Consolidated info so this post isn't so long 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emily Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Thanks for posting this, looks like it was a lot of work and theres a lot of cool stuff in there! The Fijian ra does sound really likely to me for Kane-Ra since they had a habit of calling it the Bull of Legends - just a stone's throw from 'Sir Bull.' Edited January 13, 2020 by Peri 2 Quote believe victims. its actually not that hard, and youd look kind of bad if you were to, say, side with an abuser because theyre your friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) Takanuva: Possibly a mix between Maori taka- "sense of revolution" and Ido nuva "new" Takutanuva: A mix between Maori tākuta "doctor" and Ido nuva "new" I think these characters' names derive from the names of the characters they came from: Takanuva = Takua + Nuva (Takua became a Toa who looked like a Nuva) and Takutanuva = Takanuva + Makuta (the characters who fused to form him). Plus Maori wasn't being used by 2003. Edited January 18, 2020 by Sir Kohran 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bionicfrog Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 So my post is less relevant to the Maori etymology of words in the bionicle universe, but rather the etymology of the seemingly made-up words "matoran" and "matoro". "Matoro" sounds alot like "matoran", right? But Matoro was given his name even before the change from tohunga to matoran. So did the word "matoran" have anything to do with the pre-existing name "matoro" or were both words simply derived from "mata" (maori for spirit, I believe) like in the Toa Mata or Mata Nui? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Keksalot Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 19 hours ago, bionicfrog said: So my post is less relevant to the Maori etymology of words in the bionicle universe, but rather the etymology of the seemingly made-up words "matoran" and "matoro". "Matoro" sounds alot like "matoran", right? But Matoro was given his name even before the change from tohunga to matoran. So did the word "matoran" have anything to do with the pre-existing name "matoro" or were both words simply derived from "mata" (maori for spirit, I believe) like in the Toa Mata or Mata Nui? Check the OP. "Matoro" means "to investigate" in Maori. "Mata" means "face." "Matoran" is probably derived from "Mata," or it is just a nonce word. Quote Rule #1: Always listen to Kek. Rule #2: If you break rule #1, kindly don't. Rule #3: EVERYBODY TYPE IN THE CHAT "AVAK IS A STUPID TRIGGER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 So did the word "matoran" have anything to do with the pre-existing name "matoro" or were both words simply derived from "mata" (maori for spirit, I believe) like in the Toa Mata or Mata Nui? Probably the second and the similarity to Matoro is just coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Imperator Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) On 2/10/2020 at 2:18 PM, Sir Keksalot said: Check the OP. "Matoro" means "to investigate" in Maori. "Mata" means "face." "Matoran" is probably derived from "Mata," or it is just a nonce word. It's the former. In-universe the change to Matoran was because "the Tohunga realized they were one people." Before Matoran became the standard word, villagers were referred to as Onu-Koran, Le-Koran, etc., (later changed to Koronan, probably because it's not a good idea to have the name of the Islamic holy book in Bionicle), so there's a precedent for them being named after their homes. Along those lines, Matoran would be taken to mean "people of Mata Nui," named after their home/great spirit. The resemblance to Matoro is coincidental, the same way Maku has nothing to do with Makuta. Edited February 12, 2020 by The Shadow Imperator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 In-universe the change to Matoran was because "the Tohunga realized they were one people." A slightly weak reason for it given that 'Tohunga' was already the term for them as one people. Before Matoran became the standard word, villagers were referred to as Onu-Koran, Le-Koran, etc., (later changed to Koronan, probably because it's not a good idea to have the name of the Islamic holy book in Bionicle) I can't check right now, but I think Koran and Koronan are used a bit interchangeably throughout the MNOLG, I'm not sure if a big *change* happened with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putyikazs Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) Hi guys! Regarding the problem, that we don't know what the meaning of the name 'Takua' is, I have found that the word 'takua' in thai means lead (metal). I do not know if it could be connected to him. A southernwestern region of Thailand is named Takua Pa, because it had rich ores. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takua_Pa_District) I also found (however it is very far-fetched) that when lead is burnt (fire=ta matoran) in the flame test, it colors the flame pale blue. Takua's mask was pale blue, but I don' t know if he was originally going to have that color. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead) Edited November 10, 2020 by Putyikazs New information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kohran Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Interesting enough, but I doubt they used Thai when coming up with the names. I still think 'Takua' was simply made up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Inika Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Sir Kohran said: Interesting enough, but I doubt they used Thai when coming up with the names. I still think 'Takua' was simply made up. The story team had Andrew Francis holler random assemblages of syllables and picked the combination that would sound most comical in an animated movie. Quote "You are an absolute in these uncertain times. Your past is forgotten, and your future is an empty book. You must find your own destiny, my brave adventurer." -- Turaga Nokama Click here to visit my library! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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