An open letter to Greg Farshtey (and the fanbase)

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

Please read this first. Some people have already misunderstood this post, and I have a feeling that many other people will misunderstand this post and its message. I want to make it clear, at first, that I am not thinking, or talking, about a comeback for the toyline, if that is what you're talking about My main goal of this post is to talk of my belief that the fanbase, even more than Greg, should do something to keep the fanbase itself alive. I am kinda scared that the decline that we're seeing right now will at last put an end to the whole thing you see. Also, I have to add that I am not the best writer, and sometimes I state things that are not necessarily right. Someone have already misunderstood me because I'm somewhat bad at wording things sometimes.

DISCLAIMER: I don't have anything against Greg Farshtey, I acknowledge the fact that he is a busy person with a lot of different commitments, some rather pressing such as being Chief Editor of the LEGO Magazine. I also enjoy some of his writings, so this is not meant to take him down, merely to provoke thoughts. And hopefully some action.

First off, I am not even sure if Greg can read this, being banned and everything But here I go! He could just read it when he return I guess. If he does return Also, I hope that I have worded everything well enough in the post, and most of it doesn't come out as too much forced. You know, as something that I have tried to sound too sophisticated and such... whatever, let's carry on with:

AN OPEN LETTER TO GREG FARSHTEY

(AND THE FANBASE)

I still can't believe that LEGO ending BIONICLE would result in the state that the BIONICLE storyline, and the franchise itself, is in at the moment. Sorry, but it's sort of heart-wrenching for me. And please don't feel offended at that statement before you have read my whole post, for it may reveal that, in this case, it has another meaning than you might think. Let me stalk out by saying a few things about the ending, and about Teridax: I do not feel that his death was as "disgraceful" as others have expressed, though to be honest it was rather anticlimactic, but that is not the point of this post at all. However, I will have to use Teridax as an example a few times throughout the thing, because he is a menacing, mysterious and somewhat interesting individual, even if what we don't know, or the little we do know about him, or the fact that he's such an intelligent mastermind of a character that we may never understand, with his complex mind that was like a labyrinth, all twists and turns and places that have seen no light in centuries that would boggle our feeble minds with the amount of planning... for even setbacks, while still being able to hold his secrets and what he feels and thinks a close secret, is what makes him interesting. And BIONICLE is good at mysteries and secrets. Because that Mr. Farshtey have confirmed that it is not possible for Teridax to return, though we've seen it happen before, and that is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is the fact that even though we've known him, and seen him throughout the whole story, we know almost nothing about him. I just don't get why it seems LEGO and Greg has been so against giving many characters enough screen-time, for as we know, there do exist children's fantasy, and science fiction, that has done a better job at it. To be honest, I agree the Matoran Universe were overflowing with boring cliché archetypes and stereotypes, though there were exceptions, and it was actually not always the personalities that made a character interesting in the story, but let's look at some brief examples of rather archetypical/stereotypical ones anyway: Tahu being the hot-tempered warrior, Gali being the motherly person, Takua being adventurous and somewhat immature. Though there was still something charming about these individuals, and maybe it was because we've been with them ourselves throughout the whole story. But I do think that is not quite enough. And I hope that Greg will this read this open letter I made, so that he will realize, if he hasn't already, that going going back to revisit characters and give them an even more memorable arc and lifetime's story, is somewhat crucial. We, or at least I, yearns to know more about these people more, besides simply hearing where they have been and how they saved a universe, because during these events, we were never told a lot about who they were as actual individuals. What we have gotten now may not be enough, it seems, and it also seems like BIONICLE is being forgotten more and more every day. The franchise and the story is in need for a comeback. I do agree that with a kind of storyline that BIONICLE uses, some mysteries should not be revealed, and likewise not too much about the individuals that we meet in them, because knowing too much can ruin the whole, or part, of the picture in some ways.

A lot of people have expressed their belief that Mr. Farshtey is a "subpar" writer based on what we have seen. It is not known if this is due to being controlled by others, such as LEGO, though many agree that he has given the fanbase worse (not bad) material when he was given more control himself, which I don't feel like I would be able to judge. I don't know if he is that good or bad, because we haven't seen any real/actual (and I know that "real" or "actual" is not relative concepts in this case) works from him, or it might be that we simply don't know and might not have seen his best possible effort yet. It might come. He is a good plotter I think, and I think a lot of people agrees with this statement. Or should I say idea-maker? Many of the functions that he has constructed for the Matoran Universe, some ideas of which have been developed alongside the help from higher-ranking BZPower members from what I understand, have helped to make everything make much more sense. And a lot of them are just plain cool. Or maybe I should interesting, intriguing, and mysterious in the sense that they always spawn another question. The Matoran Universe is for me like the Earth is for scientists. I always want to know more about it. I even dream of visiting the place, or perhaps living there, but I know I would miss Earth and the fantastical stories that the artists of our own world is so good at creating haha, so I'd just be here at the sideline, observing, instead. I got a little side-tracked there, sorry about that… When Mr. Farshtey writes it can sometimes come out looking like many of the characters are the same people. Quite often actually. Maybe that IS a side-effect of being controlled by a company like LEGO.. I don't know. Some people call him subpar and says that the limited time-frame that he has for each story, and the amount of characters he has to write about in each story, as well as the fact that most of the franchises he writes for are aimed at 7-year olds and not some literature critics, is not a justification for writing stories that are good and actually rather character-ridden, while other defend him and uses those circumstances to support their counter-arguments. I don't know if that was actually the reason that we didn't get as much character depth, but at the same time I am inclined to agree that we need the depth of these individual characters characters. This was also meant to be one of my points with this post. This all brings me to something that I have always wanted to tell the man himself, and that is a suggestion. I suggest Mr. Farshtey should remind himself that with the discontinuation of the BIONICLE toyline, most of the fanbase is more mature at this point. Not as many fans are joining in, since it is harder to find out about the series and franchise without the usual advertisements everywhere. And if Mr. Farshtey is reading this open letter, he should take this into consideration when he may decide to continue with the BIONICLE storyline for the fanbase that are still here, and we all know that it is not dead. A big part of it is merely asleep, sort of like Makuta Teridax put Mata Nui to sleep

In all seriousness though, I got to add that the characters are still memorable as they are now, for one thing the setting that they live and breathe on are very, very memorable, and it is a widely known and acknowledged fact, that often in fantasy and science fiction stories, the settings themselves become characters in a sense, with all the explicit detail to the architecture(s), cultural differences, symbolism associated with them etc.. But there have to be a balance in a way, and an author have to be able to always keep everything up-to-date and maintained, or else characters can, and everything else in a story for that matter, can lose their own relevance in some sense, and their uniqueness as well. This unfortunate kind of outcome is strongly connected to both the maturity of a current fanbase and times. Also, he, and all of us, have to remember that BIONICLE is a franchise, and franchises have to be maintained to not be forgotten, and built upon in some way. Fleshing everything out and maintaining every possible aspect of the story is necessary. Look at the fanbase of Star Trek as an example, and believe me when I say it is a very good example. With the Star Trek fanbase, they decided to never let their fandom go and die, even when there wasn't much going on with the actual franchise. Not many stories being told, not a single film being made, or even TV series. Because they believed in their fanbase and franchise, and because of the word of mouth, it was possible to bring it back to life, with the 2009 theatrical live-action feature film simply titled Star Trek. Furthermore, and this is just some extra trivia, did you know that the 2009 Star Trek brought more interest to the franchise than any series or movie had done before it? That's what statistics show. This is not meant to sound like a hint at what we could do to bring back BIONICLE as a towline though, it is merely making a point. The point is that both sides have to make an effort to keep something like this up to standards, or better yet higher than the common standard. I think that we were on the right track not long ago, after all those unfortunate downtimes of the website. Before that we were engaging much more often in storyline theories and conceptions, writing much more fanon and fan fiction, and helping to keep alive all of it in general. Build upon it.

This post is starting to get rather long now, but I have one last thing to say about maturity: A more mature audience might not be nearly as satisfied with the works that he has created anymore, but will want more character development and perhaps complexity, but not to a point where it is convolutiveness. Though that may differ. I like complexity and convolutiveness (is that even a word?) actually. Anyway, I got a little side-tracked with that comment, so let me get straight what I mean about a more mature story, franchise, fanbase, community (and keep that in mind as well. A fanbase is essentially a community. And communities need care to survive) etc.: Something that is not as simple as what we've got before while still carrying that certain BIONICLE charm, the mystery, the atmosphere... I don't know if that is what we need, but I feel like we need to do something, or at least more than is being done now. So, Greg Farshtey, and the rest of the fanbase, I hope that you have gained something from my "little" post that you may be able to use. Or at least find interesting.Stay creative,Best,- Lukas

EDIT: I asked some fellow BIONICLE fans that haven't lost hope. One of them said that perhaps Greg haven't done much with the story because he doesn't know if there's still an audience. Do you believe that?

EDIT: Maybe I'm going to be adding some more stuff to this letter as the discussion goes on, though I don't have to, but I feel like these few things fit it very well. As you can see not far below, I've stumbled upon some Greg quotes that look strangely familiar,

"Keep in mind that if Star Trek fans had, as a group, said, 'No point in talking about this anymore, it's never going to come back,' it never WOULD have come back."

-- Greg Farshtey

"Once Star Trek ended - pfft! - the network didn't care about it anymore, nobody cared about it anymore and it was the fans that kept it alive until finally someone turned around and said "You know what? There's a whole mess of people out there who like this. Let's do something with it again. It was a lot of years - a lot of years went by - before that happened. But if the fans shrug their shoulders and are like "Pfft! I don't care about this anymore and I'll just forget about it," then everybody else is going to forget about it, too. So the only people who - the Lego company can't do it - the only people who can keep the flame alive is the fans ... It's something only fans can do."-- Greg Farshtey

DISCLAIMER: I don't have anything against Greg Farshtey, I acknowledge the fact that he is a busy person with a lot of different commitments, some rather pressing such as being Chief Editor of the LEGO Magazine. I also enjoy some of his writings, so this is not meant to take him down, merely to provoke thoughts. And hopefully some action.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

Neelh · May 15, 2013

This is more of a personal thing, and should really be uploaded to a blog or such.

(also, you misspelt subpar as supbar)

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

I can't. Only Premier members can have blogs. And it won't let me pruchase it for some reason.

And sorry about the typo, I'll edit it now.

Also, I don't really see why it's more of a personal thing than a fact. The fact is that the fanbase have stayed more quiet than ever, and that we should do something to bring it back. I've met many people who share the same belief actually. The franchise and fanbase are certainly not dead. Greg's even been answering some questions. But it is not the same as it was before. Which is not bad, for as you can see in the post I talk about maturity and its relevance to these kind of things, and especially in our case.

EDIT: Let me quote some things that Greg has said before,

"Keep in mind that if Star Trek fans had, as a group, said, 'No point in talking about this anymore, it's never going to come back,' it never WOULD have come back."-- Greg Farshtey"Once Star Trek ended - pfft! - the network didn't care about it anymore, nobody cared about it anymore and it was the fans that kept it alive until finally someone turned around and said "You know what? There's a whole mess of people out there who like this. Let's do something with it again. It was a lot of years - a lot of years went by - before that happened. But if the fans shrug their shoulders and are like "Pfft! I don't care about this anymore and I'll just forget about it," then everybody else is going to forget about it, too. So the only people who - the Lego company can't do it - the only people who can keep the flame alive is the fans ... It's something only fans can do."-- Greg Farshtey

It's funny how these quotes are so similar to the ones I always use when people talk about BIONICLE's end haha I always use Star Trek as an example. Cool coincidence huh?

EDIT: Just to make it clear, I am also talking about the seemingly enormous decline in the overall fandom and community. It seems like it's dying and going away, though I believe it is not. And it's not just this community. There are less and less content being made. And of course, again, I am not encouraging the belief of BIONICLE coming back as a LEGO line, though only the future may show us if that's going to happen, but it seems like a lot of old fans, along with some very respected die hard ones, are even encouraging others to give up on BIONICLE and "let it go" or "die." I think that is very problematic. I thought that there were still a relatively large fanbase left, but I'm not sure if that is true. But as it stands now, I believe there must be done something. Perhaps some kind of advertisement sorta thing whose main purpose would be to encourage people to return to BZPower and other fansites, encourage the "practise" of the fandom. Doing things so that we don't actually forget about it.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

**bonesiii** · May 15, 2013

Well, Luka, I've seen probably hundreds of topics in this basic category in my time here -- we could call it complaint topics, or better yet attempts at constructive criticism; seeing a perceived problem and trying to suggest a way to improve. But there is one thing most of them have had in common that has been... well, to be positive let's word it as, less precise than they could be. I don't want this to be a negative post.

And that is basically confusing "need" for "want."

And I hope that Greg will this read this open letter I made, so that he will realize, if he hasn't already, that going going back to revisit characters and give them an even more memorable arc and lifetime's story, is somewhat crucial

I hope you understand that absolutely nothing we got from LEGO at all was crucial, needed, or necessary. See, what I don't like about that attitude (again, not sure if you mean it literally, though), is that it makes it sound like Bionicle isn't something special, "above and beyond", but merely something like feeding an addiction. What I mean by this is like this -- say there's a certain level of entertainment you need just to feel "okay". If you make the choice to have an attitude that something someone else produced is necessary in some way for you, then everything Bionicle did merely brings you to the "okay" level, and you never really enjoy it. It never goes up to "fun" or "wonderful" even. And that to me would be very sad!

What is really crucial is to understand that (again, with the disclaimer that hopefully you weren't being literal) this is a choice of attitude. It's basically about taking it for granted. You have to keep in mind that we aren't owed any of this at all. The "okay" level should be "zero content at all". And then we can better judge what was produced by how far above "okay" it is.

And there's a second mistake that is usually made, and not sure if you are making it here but I feel it's important to bring it up -- you also have to keep in mind that different people do have different personal preferences and tastes, and what might feel like subpar writing to one person may be better to others.

I do think there are some things that are legitimately objective quality though and I do think you touched on some of them, more than anything subjective, so this is probably just a "standard caution" in your case. However, one big reason it's important is to keep in mind that LEGO wasn't necessarily intending to produce the same objective quality as something like the Lord of the Rings for example -- it really was just a toyline.

Third, the point I really want to make is, personally I feel that considering it was "just a toyline" the story we got was far above just "okay" from the perspective of reasonable expectations at least, and at times way into the wonderful territory. And not everything has to be wonderful all the time. So basically I really don't feel that much serious negativity is warranted about any part of it, especially not the end. It's all about how you choose to look at it. Some can choose to see nearly anything as bad, and for some their tastes might actually make it less enjoyable, but for example to call it a disgrace is... well, I'm trying not to be negative... so I'll just say that I think that attitude could be improved greatly.

And what I'm saying is, there is NO actual "need" to revisit, revamp, rehash, etc. Bionicle. It had a great run with a cohesive, sensible, and fun story (though reasonably flawed as was expected), and it drew to a satisfying close. No matter how much expansion, elaboration, or alteration was done as you advise, someone could still want more more more, so you really have to draw the line somewhere. Why not draw it at "the story is done now"?

And the one thing I absolutely reject is any negativity about the fact that it ended, even when it ended. I've never liked complaints about that -- it's their property, not ours, and why should not a story like this have a climax and end? I always expected and even wanted a final showdown. I even say, why should not that end come a little earlier than expected, given real-world constraints? Complaints don't change those constraints, if you will, so seem pointless to me. The only thing that would serve is to ruin your enjoyment of the ending, which would miss the point. Now, we can acknowledge what is unfortunate about this, don't get me wrong, but just don't take that too seriously is my point.

Finally, keep in mind that those of us who do want expansions on what was there can (and do) write it ourselves, our own way, as fan fiction.

To ask Greg to remake Bionicle in our own personal image is really not reasonable, even if you are trying hard to avoid personal bias, because it's just so impossible to avoid. Yet, to ask each fan who really is serious about this kind of thing to at least think about writing it themselves is very reasonable. Who better to really pull off the image as you envision it than you? Then other fans can judge it and see if maybe we really would like it better. Or, as I would hope, see it as a complement to the canon story, not a competition per se.

That's part of the reason I'm writing my Bionicle history retelling, for example, or my other Bionicle fanfics. I think it's good that the canon leaves much to be desired (and ultimately that would always be the case anyways; since how much it gives and how much it doesn't is arbitrary, the most reasonable thing to do is be satisfied with whatever we were given) -- that means there's potential for us to expand on it.

And by the way, in my own writing I personally try to do some of the things you advised, so you might be interested in that regard. [/shameless promo] For example I'm trying where I have room to get more into the characterization and psychology. I do agree that Greg often missed opportunities to do so. I wish he would have more often made it about the effects events had on the characters' psyches (and less about giving little updates on whatever every character was doing). On the other hand, there is some of that and where it's there it's usually good. That's unfortunate, but at the same time it gives me room to play it my way.

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

Great Bones Very good and elaborate reply. Though I want to make something clear. As you suspected, I didn't mean the thing about crucial literally. I should have worded it differently actually... that was a mistake And when I say revisit, I don't mean rehash or revamp, but it would be interesting to go back to see how people were, perhaps, before it all happened, or at least get some more characterization out of them in the future, on their adventures in the new world of Spherus Magna. But as I said in some edits above, I am also talking about the seemingly big decline in the overall community. I am literally scared by that... :/ Oh, and by the way, I don't think Greg is subpar, which was also one of my points. We don't know if we've seen the best he can do yet. It would be very interesting to see him do something with BIONICLE again in my opinion. I think you agree in some way.

But I still feel that Greg should take into consideration that a lot of us are more mature. I am not saying that it should be Lord of the Rings, but I think he should keep it in mind Though I'm not asking for a Nolanverse-ish BIONICLE movie hahaha.

But now, tell me, don't you, at all, feel the same, in any way, about the decline and smaller interest in the overall fandom? Have you noticed it too? And do you also think that we should try and keep it alive? After all, it's very nice to have people to talk to who share the same interests. It's one of the things that made BZP very interesting before all the downtimes, I think. There were a lot more storyline theory-talk going on.

EDIT: Custom Bionicle did address this issue at some point, and so did someone with a blog named I Hate Everything, or something along those lines. The guy who wrote that post sounded a little... negative, though. But the fact still stands that there is, or seems to be, a decline. Or perhaps the fandom is getting reborn? Or reawakened? I certainly hope so. And I think we should try and help it along then

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

**CeeCee** · May 15, 2013

EDIT: Just to make it clear, I am also talking about the seemingly enormous decline in the overall fandom and community. It seems like it's dying and going away, though I believe it is not. And it's not just this community. There are less and less content being made. And of course, again, I am not encouraging the belief of BIONICLE coming back as a LEGO line, though only the future may show us if that's going to happen, but it seems like a lot of old fans, along with some very respected die hard ones, are even encouraging others to give up on BIONICLE and "let it go" or "die." I think that is very problematic. I thought that there were still a relatively large fanbase left, but I'm not sure if that is true. But as it stands now, I believe there must be done something. Perhaps some kind of advertisement sorta thing whose main purpose would be to encourage people to return to BZPower and other fansites, encourage the "practise" of the fandom. Doing things so that we don't actually forget about it.

Of course its dying. Its a dis continued toyline. People have "grown out of it" so to speak and its only the dedicated fans that still love it. Ill admit a return of Bionicle would excite me, but im quite happy to let it be. Sure, I write like a lot of people on the site. Like bonesiii says, only you can know what you want best. Thats very important you never forget that when writing. Im writting a certain epic at the moment that changes a lot of key parts to Bionicle becuase thats the story I want to tell. My writing needs to improve, of course I could never deny that. But do you think people are happy about my changes? Of course not. They'd be much happier if I made my own chars up instead of using real ones. Will I do that? No. There is a big difference between improving yourself and changing yourself for others. So, if you want to write your own expantions of thew Bionucle universe then feel free and dont let anyone drag you down. But its not up to us to tell Greg what to do or what other people should say to other people ab out Bionicle.

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

Wow, I'm sorry, but people keep misunderstanding me. I don't mean necessarily a story expansion. I mean people have just slowed more and more down even talking about BIONICLE. You do know that a lot of the fans are not necessarily LEGO fans right? I don't think that it being a discontinued toyline is relevant to the survival of the fandom itself. I thought that most people were interested in Bionicle because of the story, too, and not just the toys? Sorry, I just think that the argument about it being discontinued toyline is even more negative than people demanding a "better" story. And no, I do not hate Bionicle's story and Greg's writing I love it. And from the part of my text that you quoted, I am sure I made it clear that I was not talking about demanding a better story, or a continuation of it for that matter. EDIT: I want to make it clear that I think there is a difference between the toyline and the fandom. There are people who do not care about Bionicle only because of the sets. I'm not saying that you're like that, don't worry Bionicle is a franchise, remember? A franchise is more than just toys. Same with Bionicle, I believe. Looking back at how Bionicle has been treated, like in the storyline theories section of the website, I would be inclined to say that Bionicle do and/or have meant more to many people than just being toys. It was an unique storyline with brilliant settings, more unique, in my opinion, than The Lord of the Rings, though not better-written literally of course. The fact that there are some people that remain to take all of it, both toys and story, serious is fantstic. The fandom is certainly not dead, for fandoms can only be considered dead if there is no communication between fans at all. I think it would be interesting to see how many fans in the sense I just used, remain, not only here, but on other sites and such. It would also be interesting to see what Greg thinks of all of it, both the fandom and Bionicle itself, and what the story and franchise means to him.By the way, I do actually write my own Bionicle fanfiction, you just haven't seen it yet

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

Lewa0111 Nuva · May 15, 2013

Well said, Luka. I'll admit I haven't been nearly as active on BZP as I'd have liked to be, and only part of that is because I'm getting older. Without some kind of change or addition to the storyline, something to keep us fans intrigued, it becomes harder and harder to stay "active." There's only so many times we can retread the same conversations in the forums before we run out of things to say. Even after BIONICLE ended at first, with the story serials still being updated and new things being revealed (like the disguised Great Being and the stuff about the Red Star) there were still things to talk about and interesting revelations that kept me (and others) active and intrigued as to where the story and this fascinating universe would go next. But then it just...stopped. And as a result, a lot of fans, myself included, started drifting away.

If Greg or anyone important were to read this, the only concrete suggestion I would make (besides the obvious one of finishing the current serials) would be a revisit to the "alternate-2010" storyline. We've seen a few glimpses of it with Greg's alternate treatment of the ending to TLR and even if there wouldn't be any full-fledged novels or sets any more, it would still be fascinating just to see where the story was planning to go with it. Even just stuff like character bios and some background on Bota Magna would be enough to start the fandom's imagination-wheels turning again.

That said, you were absolutely right when you said the fandom is really just "asleep." I'm inactive but even I would love a revival of the story or more opportunities for discussion. (And with Gresh and Lewa Newva sitting on my desk at this very moment, I can't say I've stopped being a fan of the sets )

:mirunu: Lewa0111 Nuva

Edited May 15, 2013 by Lewa0111 Nuva

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

Just to make it clear, when I made the comments about fleshing it all more out, I mostly meant cleaning up, tidying up, making sure that we know what is canon and what is not, though that is not necessary I think. But it would definitely be ineteresting to get glimpses of the past once again, even of the times that we already know of. It would also be interesting to revisit the Matoran Universe, even if it is not in the same sense. Perhaps the parts inside of the Mata Nui robot could contribute to the industrialization of Spherus Magna, or the city could be built upon it. I don't think we're quite done yet with the robot. Or at least the people of the Universe is not, I believe. And as Lewa01 said above, there are so many opprotunities for Greg, but also opportunities for us, as a fandom. We could write fanfiction about these universes if we want. One thing I think we should do is at least get the current Bionicle-related contests done. Then perhaps new ones could be started. I heard that the KanohiJournal guys, before all the issues we had with BZP and such, were going to hold some interesting contests actually, including one that was to be used to canonize the look of Artakha and his Mask or something like that. Not that we need that, but I haven't heard much from those guys, and their site went down. I think they didn't have the funding for it, or perhaps people lost interest there too...

**bonesiii** · May 15, 2013

But as I said in some edits above, I am also talking about the seemingly big decline in the overall community. I am literally scared by that... :/

Literally? Why? It's natural for people to move in their lives. You might not realize this -- I don't know how long you've been with BZP -- but we have always had a high "turnover" rate. That is, within a year, usually, a large percentage of the currently most active members would move on and not spend much time here anymore. While Bionicle was going on, naturally they were replaced by others over time, but now that it's over, it's just as natural that most of them wouldn't be (though there are exceptions). I've seen so many "generations" come and go now here since I started here that I'm quite used to that.

Also, IMO it's simply leveled off. It's not like it's getting exponentially less. There was an average level while active, and there's a lower average level now that it's ended. For a while it went down (I would not say "declined" because that assumes that any particular level is right or wrong in terms of quality; arguably slower may be better as it's easier not to be drowned out in a crowd, so that's subjective), as it needed to get down to the new level. And now for over a year it seems to have settled into that lower level and be pretty stable there.

And do you also think that we should try and keep it alive?

Well, we are, aren't we? We've changed to a LEGO-in-general focus to keep things current, etc. As far as BZP goes I think we're doing a lot. I personally have been doing a lot to keep it going. But at the end of the day, yanno, we survived before Bionicle and its community, we would survive without it (or if not, then that's a bad habit we need to be weaned from). We need to keep it in perspective and realize it's an "extra".

Although, granted, in terms of friendships and the like it can go beyond that. But that need not be dependant on Bionicle, I guess is the point.

As far as Bionicle continuing goes, I don't think it's about "should" per se but about "keep your expectations low so that if it happens you can enjoy it better".

There were a lot more storyline theory-talk going on.

This depends on you guys. As leader of S&T there's only so much I can do to foster discussion -- if yall want it, ultimately yall have to start it. The forum is sitting there open to any relevant topic being posted -- whether there's activity depends on you guys, including you, Luka. Any questions you have, any remaining mysteries you have a theory about, post! That's how you get talk. ^_^

You do know that a lot of the fans are not necessarily LEGO fans right? I don't think that it being a discontinued toyline is relevant to the survival of the fandom itself. I thought that most people were interested in Bionicle because of the story, too, and not just the toys?

And yet, the story only ever existed to help sell the sets.

Also, personally it's kind of a pet peeve when I encounter someone who doesn't appreciate LEGO itself. I doubt that is very many, but once or twice I've seen it. Maybe this is just my personal bias, but I grew up on LEGO and I was always a LEGO fan. When Bionicle was successful, I was happy about it for LEGO's sake (and of course my own ).

Now, I understand that others naturally don't have my personal bias and might have grown up only with Bionicle and maybe not have the tastes to like System line like Ninjago, or less epic stories in the buildfig category like Hero Factory. I get that, but still it seems to me to be a flawed argument, intuitively, to base any argument on someone not being a LEGO-in-general fan, when we're talking about something that is inherently LEGO.

The fandom is certainly not dead, for fandoms can only be considered dead if there is no communication between fans at all.

Gotta nitpick that, though -- "fan" means someone who feels fondly toward Bionicle, as your definition implies at the end of this sentence, so "fandom" is not necessarily dependant on talk. I get what you mean, but to me fandom just means the total group of people who love Bionicle, whether they happen to be talking about it at any moment or not.

However, your definition does work if we're talking about a particular Bionicle community being alive or dead. But chew on this -- you're judging what state is like death based only relative to some previous state (that probably isn't fairly comparable since at that time Bionicle was still being produced). But we could also judge that state of activity in relation to some hypothetical even higher state that never occurred, and say the fandom was always nearly dead, or, to take it the far better opposite way, we can judge even the slowest day of activity in terms of an even older state -- before Bionicle existed -- and say it's thriving.

The point is, these are all relative terms anyways, and I very much question whether we need to judge now relative to something that's not now. Today is what it is because of factors that led to today. It's different -- it just is. Yanno?

That said, no reason we can't try to improve it. I'm just saying, it kind of irks me when people assume that it's "dying" or "nearly dead" or such things based on such questionable comparisons. What's "empirically" true is merely that there is less activity now than at times in the past. The emotional connotations you attach to that are ultimately your choice. As for me, I prefer to look at it as positive.

One thing I think we should do is at least get the current Bionicle-related contests done.

Yeah, yeah, I'm getting around to mine.

May I just add that ironically, I now spend more time working on Bionicle-related activities than I used to in its "heyday" lol. But mostly I'm working alone on fanfics and various things like the contests (slowly, admittedly... but it's mostly other Bionicle stuff that is delaying those ), versus posting so much.

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

Well, isn't that all the point of what I am saying? I don't want to sound rude Bones, but you're pretty much saying what I am saying: That we just need to do it. But I don't think that there would be anything wrong with trying to attract people in any way. I know that I am already actively doing that, and I would love to see more people do it I really miss all the elaborate graphs and maps people made in those theories... and all the numbers, physics-applying, making sense of it all, and I think it was great that some BZP members even contributed to the canon of the series, even working together with Greg in some sense.

And please don't let that irk you. For in some circumstances, for example when those sayings are associated with a call for action or something like that, there's not really a need for it I think By the way, I do think we should be able to compare it with back then and now. Look at the Greg quotes about Star Trek. The franchise was actually "dead," so to speak, but the fanbase was not, and it resulted in a comeback, but that is not necessarily the reason for a fanbase. The reason and meaning of a fanbase is having people to discuss what they're fans of, but we all know that I guess...

Oh, and I forgot to add that my letter was actually written from a more perspective that was not as much mine as any others'. I've seen and heard from many people who are sad about this, and who don't get why people are "declining" and so on and so forth. But at least we're still here.

About continuing... when it did run as a toyline, that would have been a lot different, as companies such as LEGO listen to the consumers' requests and try to work them into what they're doing, or they would give the public what they were mostly asking for. With only one author, though, it is a lot different, though I don't think we should let ourselves stop suggesting things to Greg, asking him stuff, coming up with theories and all that fascinating stuff. It is never a good idea to limit one's imagination or creativity. Those things need to be taken care off too or they will also "die," or "fall asleep." It is like a memory. Scientific studies have shown that if you don't think about a memory for a long while, it will actually be erased and cease to exist completely, with no way of retrieving it. But now I'm getting off-topic

Bones, would you be interested in keeping the fandom going though? You are a fan, right? Just curious.

EDIT: Not sure if you know that I am talking about the Bionicle fandom and not LEGO fandom... just wondering

EDIT: Also, I've noticed that a lot of the members who left, actually left because they hated the place and how it is being run. I have some friends who thought that way. I don't agree though. Of course there's been some rather nasty stuff and episodes, and no one will agree completely with all rules I guess... but it's still a fantastic place. And we can make it even more fantastic, for LEGO fans and BIonicle fans, and both. Though I have to say that I am glad that BZP still do pay tribute to the line that made the site what it is. I know that it wasn't the majority though, don't worry. And those haters... they have missed out on so much greatness...

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

**bonesiii** · May 15, 2013

What I'm saying that seems different from what you're saying is that we certainly don't need to fear discussion lessening or even going away.

This is not to say that zero discussion would be better, of course. And there are tons of positive mental effects of entertainment and discussion of it, as I've chronicled throughout the years. So I get what you're trying to say, but I'm just saying, be careful not to try to think of this as a duty or anything, as that would take the fun out of it.

BTW, forgetting can be good with stories. That way you can later go back and re-read them as if you were reading them for the first time again and enjoy them even more.

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

What I'm saying that seems different from what you're saying is that we certainly don't need to fear discussion lessening or even going away.

This is not to say that zero discussion would be better, of course. And there are tons of positive mental effects of entertainment and discussion of it, as I've chronicled throughout the years. So I get what you're trying to say, but I'm just saying, be careful not to try to think of this as a duty or anything, as that would take the fun out of it.

BTW, forgetting can be good with stories. That way you can later go back and re-read them as if you were reading them for the first time again and enjoy them even more.

Wow, forgot about quoting

Well, if you read my text again, I never did say that it was dead. I said that it was merely asleep And, you know, even this discussion is pracising fandom I guess. That is if we are both fans... hmmm? I'll be keeping an eye on you. *points two fingers at eyes, then at you.* (EDIT. was being sarcastic there. I don't doubt that you're still a huge fan, otherwise I don't think you would have been given the Storyline Theories section. That's pretty cool btw )

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

**bonesiii** · May 15, 2013

I'm a fan of having fun with it. By that definition, I'm a fan. I'm not a person who wants to be addicted to something, so if that is someone's definition of "fan" I'm not that, as that would be unhealthy. (As I said, though, I see "fan" as simply meaning a person who enjoys something, so we are all Bionicle fans here.)

So what I'm focusing on is the best ways to have the most fun with it because that's the whole point. Any taking it for granted or whatnot that robs fun would thus be unwise.

So, it's a "both and" kind of thing rather than "either or" -- we can both try to increase activity to increase fun, and also increase our positive attitude toward it, not taking any of it for granted, which also maximizes how fun it is. Make sense?

bohrokmaster · May 15, 2013

But as I said in some edits above, I am also talking about the seemingly big decline in the overall community. I am literally scared by that... :/
Literally? Why? It's natural for people to move in their lives. You might not realize this -- I don't know how long you've been with BZP -- but we have always had a high "turnover" rate. That is, within a year, usually, a large percentage of the currently most active members would move on and not spend much time here anymore. While Bionicle was going on, naturally they were replaced by others over time, but now that it's over, it's just as natural that most of them wouldn't be (though there are exceptions). I've seen so many "generations" come and go now here since I started here that I'm quite used to that.

Also, IMO it's simply leveled off. It's not like it's getting exponentially less. There was an average level while active, and there's a lower average level now that it's ended. For a while it went down (I would not say "declined" because that assumes that any particular level is right or wrong in terms of quality; arguably slower may be better as it's easier not to be drowned out in a crowd, so that's subjective), as it needed to get down to the new level. And now for over a year it seems to have settled into that lower level and be pretty stable there.

>>And do you also think that we should try and keep it alive?
Well, we are, aren't we? We've changed to a LEGO-in-general focus to keep things current, etc. As far as BZP goes I think we're doing a lot. I personally have been doing a lot to keep it going. But at the end of the day, yanno, we survived before Bionicle and its community, we would survive without it (or if not, then that's a bad habit we need to be weaned from). We need to keep it in perspective and realize it's an "extra".

Although, granted, in terms of friendships and the like it can go beyond that. But that need not be dependant on Bionicle, I guess is the point.

As far as Bionicle continuing goes, I don't think it's about "should" per se but about "keep your expectations low so that if it happens you can enjoy it better".

There were a lot more storyline theory-talk going on.
This depends on you guys. As leader of S&T there's only so much I can do to foster discussion -- if yall want it, ultimately yall have to start it. The forum is sitting there open to any relevant topic being posted -- whether there's activity depends on you guys, including you, Luka. Any questions you have, any remaining mysteries you have a theory about, post! That's how you get talk.

You do know that a lot of the fans are not necessarily LEGO fans right? I don't think that it being a discontinued toyline is relevant to the survival of the fandom itself. I thought that most people were interested in Bionicle because of the story, too, and not just the toys?
And yet, the story only ever existed to help sell the sets.

Also, personally it's kind of a pet peeve when I encounter someone who doesn't appreciate LEGO itself. I doubt that is very many, but once or twice I've seen it. Maybe this is just my personal bias, but I grew up on LEGO and I was always a LEGO fan. When Bionicle was successful, I was happy about it for LEGO's sake (and of course my own ).

Now, I understand that others naturally don't have my personal bias and might have grown up only with Bionicle and maybe not have the tastes to like System line like Ninjago, or less epic stories in the buildfig category like Hero Factory. I get that, but still it seems to me to be a flawed argument, intuitively, to base any argument on someone not being a LEGO-in-general fan, when we're talking about something that is inherently LEGO.

The fandom is certainly not dead, for fandoms can only be considered dead if there is no communication between fans at all.
Gotta nitpick that, though -- "fan" means someone who feels fondly toward Bionicle, as your definition implies at the end of this sentence, so "fandom" is not necessarily dependant on talk. I get what you mean, but to me fandom just means the total group of people who love Bionicle, whether they happen to be talking about it at any moment or not.

However, your definition does work if we're talking about a particular Bionicle community being alive or dead. But chew on this -- you're judging what state is like death based only relative to some previous state (that probably isn't fairly comparable since at that time Bionicle was still being produced). But we could also judge that state of activity in relation to some hypothetical even higher state that never occurred, and say the fandom was always nearly dead, or, to take it the far better opposite way, we can judge even the slowest day of activity in terms of an even older state -- before Bionicle existed -- and say it's thriving.

The point is, these are all relative terms anyways, and I very much question whether we need to judge now relative to something that's not now. Today is what it is because of factors that led to today. It's different -- it just is. Yanno?

That said, no reason we can't try to improve it. I'm just saying, it kind of irks me when people assume that it's "dying" or "nearly dead" or such things based on such questionable comparisons. What's "empirically" true is merely that there is less activity now than at times in the past. The emotional connotations you attach to that are ultimately your choice. As for me, I prefer to look at it as positive.
One thing I think we should do is at least get the current Bionicle-related contests done.
Yeah, yeah, I'm getting around to mine.

May I just add that ironically, I now spend more time working on Bionicle-related activities than I used to in its "heyday" lol. But mostly I'm working alone on fanfics and various things like the contests (slowly, admittedly... but it's mostly other Bionicle stuff that is delaying those ), versus posting so much.

You know, I still believe BIONICLE isn't dying and As a longtime Fan, I have seen Fan projects outside BZPower aiming to make Fanfilms of BIONICLE. (2001-2010:Journey's end)

Edited May 15, 2013 by bohrokmaster

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

Like Next Generation? Yeah, I know, I'm an admin hehe. And while we've had some problems, it was sometimes due to bad leadership (no offense to the leaders of course!) and their ambitions, rather than any other members'. But we're still working on something here, we will just not announce yet and right here. But the fact that sich projects exist, is proof that the fandom is in fact here. Fandoms would never be the same, in my opinion, without such projects.By the way, Bones, for me entertainment is often more than simply fun, it is, for me, one of the most importnt things in the world, or at least fiction is. You see, I dream of being an author A successful, brilliant and famous one. Abd with certainly things it has a much deeper mening than simple fun. A kinda funny deviantART conversation says it fairly well:"So do you watch BIONICLE then?I breath it.XDXDD"Or something like that.Now please don't look at that in an unhealthy way, it's just a clear picture of how *important* Bionicle is. I do not take Bionicle, its stories and sets for granted, I want to make that clear. It's just one of those little (or big...?) things that are that unique to me. I just wanted to say that.But I do admit that I've had a dream of working on the story, and have, a while back, talked to Copenhagen Advance about doing a certainly project. I'm actually a bit jealous that I didn't come up with it or at least got to be part of the Story Team hahaha. I don't even live far away from Billund.EDIT: Bybrhe way nice signature Bohrok

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

Lyichir · May 15, 2013

You know, I still believe BIONICLE isn't dying and As a longtime Fan, I have seen Fan projects outside BZPower aiming to make Fanfilms of BIONICLE. (2001-2010:Journey's end)

I've seen those too, but I've been generally less than impressed than the results. The reason for this is that many Bionicle fans have a trait the theme itself had from the start: ambition. They almost ALWAYS shoot for the moon. A continuation and conclusion of the Bionicle story! A more mature, artsier reimagining of the theme from its conception through to its conclusion!But, from my experience, fan projects generally don't have the resources to either continue or remake the story of Bionicle. It was such a massive, multifaceted story, and most fan projects are worked on by, at best, a small team, and at worst, a single author. That's not to say that these kinds of projects are a bad idea altogether. But I've seen so many aborted or abandoned partway through that I think many Bionicle fans who want to do such a thing would be better off starting small. Short films! Short stories! Don't feel the need to tie it to a grander mythos from the get go. The story of a single, working-class Matoran in Metru Nui could be as emotional as any epic saga of heroes, and wouldn't have the same risk attached to it.

Lukas Exemplar · May 15, 2013

You don't need any ressources to do so, actually. All you need is a live for Bionicle, knowledge of language, imagination, creativity and a pen and paper. Unless you want to move from fanfic to actual movies. Ever heard of James Roberts' Eugenesis?EDIT: At least we knew about the risks. We were working on shorts. But then came All the downtimes, then the line's end and then the sad declind that we're seeing now.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Luka1184

**bonesiii** · May 16, 2013

By the way, Bones, for me entertainment is often more than simply fun, it is, for me, one of the most importnt things in the world, or at least fiction is. You see, I dream of being an author A successful, brilliant and famous one. Abd with certainly things it has a much deeper mening than simple fun.

Well so do I. That's mainly why I'm here anyways; for practice for that. Anywho, yes, all the other positives we can get out of it, like deeper meanings and moral lessons and inspiration and all of that are awesome too -- the whole point is that we should let it all be positive, rather than turn any of it into a negative at all. That's the idea.

So, if our activity about it ever did cease, we wouldn't feel anything negative, other than little things like boredom. That way we can better enjoy all the positives, yes, even beyond mere fun. But of course, we should keep in mind that fun is what it's all about.

And for what it's worth, personally I'm committed to the long haul for all the Bionicle projects I'm working on, from the Expanded Multiverse to my own fanfics to the contests. I also intend to make at least one quality game (but how quality is uncertain since I'll probably be working alone) as I've said on my blog. And just because others' attempts thus far have tended not to be that great doesn't mean it can't happen. ^_^ Ultimately, it comes back to the "if you want it, work on it" thing. I don't worry about complaining about others' fan works because it's more productive to produce my own.

Not that yall meant to be like whiners or anything, just giving my perspective to add to the discussion. =D

Lukas Exemplar · May 16, 2013

I see boredom as something negative. I have a bit of an workaholic in me. I get so restless during holidays.And this post was actually meant to be positive, but as I said, some of it came out wrong from what I was thinking and wanted to write, or that was what I meant about wording what I meant more properly. It's simply a call to the fans that are silent. I know, but people should be able to enjoy the whole package when we had it. Sets and story. Now that we don't have any new sets I can't see why people can't care about the story anymore. I think that is actually why Greg is not postog any stories recently. I think that he doesn't know if the audience is still there, though I don't know. You, the staff, probably do though. But as Greg said, we just have to love both Bionicle and Hero Factory. Using the Star Trek analogy was rather clever and a good idea, but it's kinda like people don't care anyway. I use that analogy all the time myself. Did you know that Advance Copenhagen still care alot about Bionicle, and they have been helping some fan projects?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Luka1184

Sir Kohran · May 16, 2013

I'm a little confused about what you're asking for here. Sometimes you seem to be talking about Greg Farshtey and asking for more official story to keep Bionicle active, other times you're talking about the fanbase and asking how to keep it alive whilst Bionicle remains inactive. Is it either or both?

I'll just address a few points that stand out to me:

I want to make it clear, at first, that I am not thinking, or talking, about a comeback for the toyline, if that is what you're talking about My main goal of this post is to talk of my belief that the fanbase, even more than Greg, should do something to keep the fanbase itself alive.

The problem is, whether you like it or not, the two are connected. With the franchise inactive, no-one will be finding it for the first time and wanting to discuss it, so the only growth in the fanbase will be those who remembered the franchise whilst it was alive. And those are going to run out sooner or later.

Once Star Trek ended - pfft! - the network didn't care about it anymore, nobody cared about it anymore and it was the fans that kept it alive until finally someone turned around and said "You know what? There's a whole mess of people out there who like this. Let's do something with it again.

This fails to take into account that there was 'a whole mess of people' on here who liked Bionicle in 2009; probably far more than are active here now or will be active in the future. Did they stop Lego cancelling it?

The fact is that the fanbase have stayed more quiet than ever, and that we should do something to bring it back.

The only thing that'll steadily bring in new members is for the line to be active again. And that isn't within our control.

Now that we don't have any new sets I can't see why people can't care about the story anymore.

We don't get any new story now either, so you can't expect people to care about that after a while without it.

I think that is actually why Greg is not postog any stories recently. I think that he doesn't know if the audience is still there, though I don't know. You, the staff, probably do though.

AFAIK there's no definite reason for why he stopped writing Bionicle story. I'd say it was more that he found it overwhelming to carry the weight of the entire franchise in addition to writing for Hero Factory and Ninjago. Also, the fact that Bionicle's central story was already resolved in early 2010 may have made it seem pointless to continue. I'm fairly confident Lego wanted the story to continue more to soften the initial blow of the sets ending than to actually keep the franchise alive.

**bonesiii** · May 16, 2013

Yanno, I've started to wonder whether the Star Trek analogy really fits at all, honestly. I was as happy as the next guy when Greg said it, but let's think this through.

Bionicle was a story that began an arc problem, if you will -- Mata Nui, the Great Spirit (super good guy) has been cast into slumber by the evil Makuta (super bad guy), and various little good guys will struggle against him and his various minions, allies, and pawns, to undo that damage. Without knowing any of the other details, this sets Bionicle up for a beginning, middle and end, and that's exactly what happened. The end goal was clarified near the end as being about Reforming Spherus Magna, which provided a reason for the existence of the super good guy in the first place (and the bad guy indirectly). But the story was finished.

Star Trek was a completely different kind of story.

It was from the start "a series of random adventures", and that could hypothetically go on forever, or it could end at any moment really. It was totally arbitrary. The end that came was viewed by many as too early merely because there was still so much unexplored potential.

While it's true that Bionicle is filled with unexplored potential too, it can't just return in the way Star Trek did. There would have to be a new arc, and let's face it, it would have to be as good as or better than the arc we already had, and our expectations would be so high it may be impossible to surpass them. I really think a large number of fans have been satisfied with the arc we had, even if it was ended a little early and there were some bumps along the road. This really isn't, in hindsight, all that comparable to Star Trek. It really is hard to see how a second arc could work as well as the first, under the same banner of the "Bionicle" title.

Personally I would really rather see, after a break, some new story that's just as imaginative, mysterious, and quality (HF has got imagination but I think if we're honest it's lacking in the other two, comparatively, but I don't entirely mind that because it's giving us a break to relax and maybe get our expectations back down so whatever comes next will seem better ), under a different banner; a new one. Bionicle is already very full of detail, and what IMO it's lacking is really just little things here and there, like "what does Helryx look like?" that probably aren't worth starting a whole new arc to answer (which would most likely just open up even more loose ends anyways).

However, I do think, as I've said before, that in several years there will be an opportunity for a short, three-year-max run of a return, as the majority of the original audience becomes parents of their own target-age kids.

But this arc will likely be far less ambitious, at least in terms of every year having to top what was done the year before. This might be useful in tying up old loose ends without opening up too many new ones, and since it wouldn't try to sustain itself for ten years again it could fly just on the "new factor" (for the kids of that generation who don't remember old Bionicle because they weren't born yet).

Also, let's keep in mind that even Star Trek, when it came back, came back in a very different way. It was movies for a while with the characters older and not doing the average small-scale adventures of the original series and then it was totally new characters. The second TV series introduced arcs, but they didn't last as coherently throughout the whole show, other than Q. The later ones introduced series-wide arcs for the most part, and now we have an "alternate timeline reboot". So if we're basing all this on an analogy, it's vital to keep in mind that a Bionicle return won't likely be what we're used to (maybe everybody here is okay with that, just adding it for the record since I'm already analyzing the analogy ).

Now all that said, the Star Trek analogy is still relevant because when you don't worry about these little details, it still shows that something can come back after an end.

And we should also not make the mistake of assuming that something could only work if it's worked before -- ultimately a return will happen if and only if LEGO thinks conditions are ripe for it, which could happen regardless of past examples of similar returns (in fact, perhaps an over-reliance on this analogy may be part of what's causing ambivalence about it; the Star Trek audience wasn't trusting in some past example; they fueled that return purely on faith and motivation alone, or at least for the most part -- maybe some of us have been feeling too overconfident that a return is inevitable). Just felt like since this analogy has been used so repeatedly and usually uncritically it's worth it to put this out there as food for thought.

Lukas Exemplar · May 16, 2013

I think it is actually irrelevant wether BIONICLE or Star Trek is similiar in any way or not. What I was talking about is the fanbase, not the story So the anology does work here, as it is not used in such a context. But I get what you mean.

**bonesiii** · May 16, 2013

I think it is actually irrelevant wether BIONICLE or Star Trek is similiar in any way or not. What I was talking about is the fanbase, not the story So the anology does work here, as it is not used in such a context. But I get what you mean.

What do you mean? Just to be clear, Greg meant the analogy to be about an official return (possibility) -- not about how active we might be if it doesn't return. The idea being that if we stay active enough it'll naturally show LEGO that there's fans out there for a return.

BTW, though, another big difference is that those of us showing activity here wouldn't be indicative of the target audience anyways, though, and I think most of us have realized that. And it really only works if it's "natural". In other words, if LEGO mostly sees us saying "come on, guys, act interested!" they are going to realize it's more drummed-up (not to be negative, but for lack of a better phrase ) than based on genuinely strong continued dissatisfaction with the end. The fans LEGO would really be targeting won't likely be part of any online Bionicle community already anyways; that'll be new generations.

Anywho, not to nitpick, just realized I was going to add that to my previous post and forgot.

And anyways, I think we're pretty much on the same page, so we can focus on working on fueling more interest if possible (not to motivate a return per se although that would be nice, but for the sake of having fun and meaningful discussion and the like ). Actually this is obviously a big reason I'm writing that history retelling; I've gotten the vibe that familiarity with the story's overall arc has been going down (due to forgetting, etc.) and that will naturally fuel less interest overall. Who knows if it'll help but yeah. Speaking of which I should get back to it. :lol:

Lukas Exemplar · May 16, 2013

The analogy have different meanings depending on how you look at it.

And how drummed up? Business is usually controlled by hype actually. But with the post, I think I was aiming for more of the fans that are not here anyore but may lurk here. I think it's a tradition for fans to sit lurking before registrering. Funny

Oh, and I am very happy that you are so enthusiastic We can do this, but only step by step I think. And I can't wait to see what you come up with.

Sir Kohran · May 16, 2013

Bionicle was a story that began an arc problem, if you will -- Mata Nui, the Great Spirit (super good guy) has been cast into slumber by the evil Makuta (super bad guy), and various little good guys will struggle against him and his various minions, allies, and pawns, to undo that damage. Without knowing any of the other details, this sets Bionicle up for a beginning, middle and end, and that's exactly what happened. The end goal was clarified near the end as being about Reforming Spherus Magna, which provided a reason for the existence of the super good guy in the first place (and the bad guy indirectly). But the story was finished.

...

While it's true that Bionicle is filled with unexplored potential too, it can't just return in the way Star Trek did. There would have to be a new arc, and let's face it, it would have to be as good as or better than the arc we already had, and our expectations would be so high it may be impossible to surpass them. I really think a large number of fans have been satisfied with the arc we had, even if it was ended a little early and there were some bumps along the road. This really isn't, in hindsight, all that comparable to Star Trek. It really is hard to see how a second arc could work as well as the first

This reminds me of the words of a Disney rep in 1997 about the TV series spin-off of Hercules. He said they were setting it specifically before the movie, when the main character was a nobody, saying they'd learned from their experience with the Aladdin TV series (which was set after the movie). When asked about this, he replied that it was too hard to tell stories after the big happy ending.

Could this be the case with Bionicle? With Makuta's defeat, has the story reached the point of "that's it, the end"?

I think it is actually irrelevant wether BIONICLE or Star Trek is similiar in any way or not. What I was talking about is the fanbase, not the story So the anology does work here, as it is not used in such a context. But I get what you mean.
What do you mean? Just to be clear, Greg meant the analogy to be about an official return (possibility) -- not about how active we might be if it doesn't return. The idea being that if we stay active enough it'll naturally show LEGO that there's fans out there for a return.

BTW, though, another big difference is that those of us showing activity here wouldn't be indicative of the target audience anyways, though, and I think most of us have realized that. And it really only works if it's "natural". In other words, if LEGO mostly sees us saying "come on, guys, act interested!" they are going to realize it's more drummed-up (not to be negative, but for lack of a better phrase ) than based on genuinely strong continued dissatisfaction with the end. The fans LEGO would really be targeting won't likely be part of any online Bionicle community already anyways; that'll be new generations.

I'll say it again if you missed it above - the 'idea' doesn't work, because there were many active fans when Bionicle was last around, and yet Lego went ahead and cancelled it. Therefore the activity of fans is irrelevant to whether the line is alive or not. You sort of say this yourself at the start of the second paragraph.

Lukas Exemplar · May 16, 2013

Bionicle was a story that began an arc problem, if you will -- Mata Nui, the Great Spirit (super good guy) has been cast into slumber by the evil Makuta (super bad guy), and various little good guys will struggle against him and his various minions, allies, and pawns, to undo that damage. Without knowing any of the other details, this sets Bionicle up for a beginning, middle and end, and that's exactly what happened. The end goal was clarified near the end as being about Reforming Spherus Magna, which provided a reason for the existence of the super good guy in the first place (and the bad guy indirectly). But the story was finished.

...

While it's true that Bionicle is filled with unexplored potential too, it can't just return in the way Star Trek did. There would have to be a new arc, and let's face it, it would have to be as good as or better than the arc we already had, and our expectations would be so high it may be impossible to surpass them. I really think a large number of fans have been satisfied with the arc we had, even if it was ended a little early and there were some bumps along the road. This really isn't, in hindsight, all that comparable to Star Trek. It really is hard to see how a second arc could work as well as the first

This reminds me of the words of a Disney rep in 1997 about the TV series spin-off of Hercules. He said they were setting it specifically before the movie, when the main character was a nobody, saying they'd learned from their experience with the Aladdin TV series (which was set after the movie). When asked about this, he replied that it was too hard to tell stories after the big happy ending.

Could this be the case with Bionicle? With Makuta's defeat, has the story reached the point of "that's it, the end"?

>
I think it is actually irrelevant wether BIONICLE or Star Trek is similiar in any way or not. What I was talking about is the fanbase, not the story So the anology does work here, as it is not used in such a context. But I get what you mean.
What do you mean? Just to be clear, Greg meant the analogy to be about an official return (possibility) -- not about how active we might be if it doesn't return. The idea being that if we stay active enough it'll naturally show LEGO that there's fans out there for a return.

BTW, though, another big difference is that those of us showing activity here wouldn't be indicative of the target audience anyways, though, and I think most of us have realized that. And it really only works if it's "natural". In other words, if LEGO mostly sees us saying "come on, guys, act interested!" they are going to realize it's more drummed-up (not to be negative, but for lack of a better phrase ) than based on genuinely strong continued dissatisfaction with the end. The fans LEGO would really be targeting won't likely be part of any online Bionicle community already anyways; that'll be new generations.

I'll say it again if you missed it above - the 'idea' doesn't work, because there were many active fans when Bionicle was last around, and yet Lego went ahead and cancelled it. Therefore the activity of fans is irrelevant to whether the line is alive or not. You sort of say this yourself at the start of the second paragraph.

Look, this is the point I am trying to make here. I am not talking abut continuening the story as much as I am talking about continuening fandom. Fandom does not mean story. Fandom is the same as fanbase. Though, as someone pointed out, new stories would help the fandom I think.

By the way, everything is possible with stuff like this if it is executed well. If it is not, not so much. And I did like the new stories we got, it's just that when it stopped it felt like a total cliffhanger kind of thing. Meeting Mavrah and then boom, nothing. A bit of a disappointment, but I don't wan to demand anything from Greg. But I am going to say that I do not feel that LEGO let BIONICLE reach its maximum potential. But when it did reach its prime in its lifespan, it was pretty good Stories from Bara Magna and Bota Magna or just Spherus Magna wouldn't hurt the fandom, I think. It if was well-written and well-executed, it would actually help But we all know this. I don't want to be redundant... so, I am sorry that I sound kind of like that.

**bonesiii** · May 20, 2013

This reminds me of the words of a Disney rep in 1997 about the TV series spin-off of Hercules. He said they were setting it specifically before the movie, when the main character was a nobody, saying they'd learned from their experience with the Aladdin TV series (which was set after the movie). When asked about this, he replied that it was too hard to tell stories after the big happy ending.

Could this be the case with Bionicle? With Makuta's defeat, has the story reached the point of "that's it, the end"?

Well, that analogy specifically has two important features -- first, if we apply it strictly, it just means Bionicle would use flashbacks again. And second, Aladdin is a story about the guy named Aladdin, versus Bionicle which could be about a lot of people. Aladdin was also working off of a legend the storytellers didn't invent so had to stay within that style. But I'm probably overanalyzing the specific analogy.

I do think it's somewhat likely it has reached a "that's it" point, though I still think Greg should finish the current serials as an epilogue.

There are story universes that have kept going on a smaller scale after the end. The Dune universe arguably had its satisfying end at the end of the very first book; few people love the others as much, but they kept coming, and having read some of them I know there is still some fun to get out of them.

Star Wars could be analogous to the flashback strategy plus the comeback one now; a lot of us thought the end had come and that was it but now they're making more (we'll see how well).

So it's really impossible to tell. It depends on what LEGO comes up with and how well it's done, etc. I lean towards hoping they might try it at some point, since they took steps to make sure they still kept the copyright, but right now my focus is on hoping Greg will eventually finish the ongoing serials.

Sir Kohran · May 20, 2013

Well, that analogy specifically has two important features -- first, if we apply it strictly, it just means Bionicle would use flashbacks again.

Of the two flashback years, 2004 was largely well-received, whilst 2005 to a certain extent wasn't. That might've been due to the flashback's own self-contained arc (the threat to Metru Nui and the departure of the Matoran to Mata Nui) already having been resolved by the last scene of Legends of Metru Nui, making 2005 a kind of flashback in a flashback, which perhaps many fans found tedious and unnecessary.

There are thousands of years of Bionicle history, and a return of the line could consist entirely of self-contained flashback stories, though I don't know how interested veteran fans would be.

Star Wars could be analogous to the flashback strategy plus the comeback one now; a lot of us thought the end had come and that was it but now they're making more (we'll see how well).

I did think of the upcoming Star Wars movies as a similar example of trying to continue a franchise in which the story had ended. All six existing movies are about the disruption of the Force by the Sith (the problem), and by the end of them, the Sith and the Empire have been completely defeated and the Force is in order (the solution). No movies set after Return of the Jedi were made after 1983 because there wasn't any problem left to resolve.

So now, in making new movies set after the last one, there are two options: either the Sith return, which is an easy and familiar route but undoes the ending of Return of the Jedi, or a completely new threat appears, which in terms of storytelling is more credible but may be too removed from what audiences expect in a Star Wars movie. The latter is along the lines of the 'new arc' you mentioned.

To relate it to Bionicle, if the line returns, either the Brotherhood of Makuta is still active (easy but very contrived), or a new threat to the Great Beings and Mata Nui appears (credible but more difficult).

but right now my focus is on hoping Greg will eventually finish the ongoing serials.

Is there a reason for why he stopped? Is it a case of "can't" or "won't"?

I can't help feeling that the more time passes, the more irrelevant Bionicle becomes and the more involved he becomes in the current franchises.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Sir Kohran

bohrokmaster · May 20, 2013

Personally, I liked the flashback from 2005 (Toa Hordika and Visorak) It shows more of their backstory as the Toa Metru and why Turuga Vakama and his friends knew alot about the bohrok swarms, etc.

**bonesiii** · May 20, 2013

I think the biggest hurdle to finishing the serials is the same basic reason Bionicle was ended; it just became so complicated. It takes work to ensure such a complex story avoids contradictions, because we humans are forgetful.

What I hope for is not so much a complex finish, though -- just a finish that tells some more fun character stories and brings it to a close, telling us along the way how the major loose ends get tied up. I don't need the serials to do what Greg's own answers can do and explain every little detail and backstory, so IMO it's an attainable goal.

Re: SW, good points. IMO Bionicle should be easier to establish a new enemy for a comeback than SW would. Jedi vs. Sith is inherent to that universe, while Toa vs. Makuta is not (and we already went beyond just Toa focus, in fact). There's no inherent physics connection to Makuta, other than his destiny which was fulfilled; he was just the evil mastermind who happened to arise to fill that role. Another could arise and follow a different but perhaps nostalgically evocative path.

The trick is, can LEGO think of such a villain that will both be interesting enough to old fans and different enough that heshe won't feel like a Makuta clone -- whose path will be in the same sort of style but still be difficult to predict? And we have no way to know that; it's a "wait and see" thing.

An open letter to Greg Farshtey (and the fanbase)

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