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Rahi


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#1 Offline Baron Von Nebula

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 04:04 PM

I've been having some trouble lately understanding what a Rahi is, and what the Rahi Control power is.

Here, I've tried to define both of these.

 

Rahi is Matoran for "not us".  However, the term is not applied to Vortixx, Skakdi, etc.  It almost always refers to animals- non-sapient beings.  There is no issue when creatures like Muaka or Energy Hounds are referred to as Rahi.  The confusion comes when creatures such as Tahtorak, Krahka, Artahka Bulls, Keetongu, and the Bahrag are called Rahi.

These creatures are all intelligent and more like beings than animals, as they are stated to have Matoran-level intelligence.  As such, they should not be defined as Rahi, if Rahi are just animals.  I have thought of a different trait which they share with the unintelligent Rahi which could differentiate all Rahi from non-Rahi.

Rahi are biomechanical organisms whose species do not form complex societies as civilizations are defined.

A one way of deterimining this for each species would be their participation in cities.  Krahka and the Artahka Bulls live on their own, and neither take part in nor form civilized structures such as cities.  Because of the Tahtorak's size, they must migrate to find food, and therefore could not have settled down or built cities (assuming they had the dexterity to do so anyways).  Since Keetongu's species used the Tahtorak as mounts, they presumably lived a nomadic life as well.  Finally, the Bahrag lived alone in the Bohrok nest, if you discount the impersonal Bohrok who lack minds of their own.

Thus, Rahi can be defined as species in the MU which do not form the same types of societies and structures as species like Matoran, who therefore refer to them by the term "not us".

 

The Rahi Control power, however, must be using the definition of Rahi as "animal".  The power first appeared as a Kraata power in 2003, before the term Rahi had ever been applied to an intelligent being (I don't think the Bahrag were said to have been thought of by the Matoran as Rahi until later).  At the point that this power was made, Rahi were always animals.  In BA 10 (Time Trap), Keetongu and Makuta Teridax fought.  Teridax won, but he had to actually fight, which implies that he could not simply use his Rahi Control power on Keetongu.

Later, in Into the Darkness, Karzahni attacked Teridax with his army of Manas.  Teridax took control of half of the Manas to make them attack the other half, before threatening to have the surviving Manas attack Karzahni.  This shows that a powerful user of the Rahi Control power can control many very powerful Rahi, but not a single intelligent Rahi.

In addition, the fact that Teridax only controlled half the Manas suggests that there is a limit to how many Rahi he could control at once.

The idea that more powerful (but unintelligent) Rahi are harder to control would make sense, when the battle between the Toa Mangai and the Kanohi Dragon is considered.  It would be ridiculous to suggest that a single Toa with the right Kanohi could have stopped the Dragon- if this was the case, why would eleven Toa show up to fight it?

 

Thus, the term Rahi does not refer to the intelligence of the species like the term animal does.  On the other hand, the Mask of Mind Control uses the "animal" definition of Rahi, and this power is limited by the intelligence, number, and power of the target(s).

Sorry if this was too long.  Thoughts?  Criticisms?


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#2 Offline Toa of Anarchy

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 04:50 PM

Good question! I looked up the mask of Rahi Control on BS1 and it seemed to give the idea that it is sort of like the mask of mind

control, except only for Rahi. While reading one of the Bionicle books (can't remember which one) Onewa tried to use his mask of mind control to control a Rahi. However, he was blocked by a wall of soild emotion. I guess this implies that a more intelligent Rahi is easier to minipulate then a smart one, however, it is able to get around the emotional and primitive barriers in the Rahis mind. Hope that helps.


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— Vezon, Federation of Fear

 

"Where are we going? Why are we going? Are we going at all, or just sailing in a big circle? Or is it a spiral? I went down a spiral once: a big stone tunnel that went down and down and down, and ended in Zyglak. Whoever built it had no decorating sense at all."
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#3 Offline Baron Von Nebula

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 07:46 PM

Good question! I looked up the mask of Rahi Control on BS1 and it seemed to give the idea that it is sort of like the mask of mind

control, except only for Rahi. While reading one of the Bionicle books (can't remember which one) Onewa tried to use his mask of mind control to control a Rahi. However, he was blocked by a wall of soild emotion. I guess this implies that a more intelligent Rahi is easier to minipulate then a smart one, however, it is able to get around the emotional and primitive barriers in the Rahis mind. Hope that helps.

With the Onewa example, it could be because his mask was not specified for Rahi.  I think an actual Mask of Rahi Control or the Kraata power is more effective when dealing specifically with unintelligent Rahi.


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#4 Offline VakamaMetruNui

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 08:09 PM

I'll add my opinions into this discussion.

 

First I just wanted to help clear a few things up. First of all the Bahrag are not Rahi, the Matoran would consider them to be because of their monstrous appearance, but they are intelligent. The Matroan do the same with Zyglak, Krana and Kraata. They seem to jump to conclusions on a few things :P

 

Second is I am fairly certain that the Komau is more effective on dumber Rahi than smart, as it is a simpler mind to control. Although I believe there are Rahi that are too dumb that cannot be controlled by it. I am guessing that the Mask fo Rahi Control's upper hand is it can control those Rahi, as it is contorling Rahi and not minds.

 

The next thing Baron is that you see Teridax not using his power on Keetongu as him not being able to use it. Remember that Makuta have 42 different Kraata powers, along with the power of shadow, their masks powers and incredible brute strength. In Antroz's own words:

 

The challenge of being a Makuta is choosing which powers to use to destroy your enemies. It gets boring using the same ones all the time. Variety is the spice of destruction, after all.

 

So while it is possible that Teridax could not control Keetongu, I find it more likely he did not want it to be over so easily, and so used his other powers instead. Same goes for him controlling the Manas. Maybe he couldn't control all of them, but he is also so sadistic that he probably turned them on each other just for the laughs.

 

Now that that is out of the way, your theory does make some sense, but there is a hole. Kraata and Krana do not form civilizations, yet they are not Rahi, and thus I would not think Rahi Control would work on them, although I do not believe this has been proven. Also, BS01 says that most Rahi do not have the willpower to resist the Mask of Rahi Control power, with possible exceptions of Krahka and Keetongu. So I'd say the answer might be in there, that the deciding factor is willpower and not intelligence. For example, gorillas are intelligent, but they don't really have the same willpower that we do in being able to push their bodies through pain to do things, resist a sort of mental invasion, etc. And it seems like possibly even Krahka and Keetongu wouldn't be able to resist it. I hope that all made sense :P

 

VMN


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#5 Offline Baron Von Nebula

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 08:28 PM

I'll add my opinions into this discussion.

 

First I just wanted to help clear a few things up. First of all the Bahrag are not Rahi, the Matoran would consider them to be because of their monstrous appearance, but they are intelligent. The Matroan do the same with Zyglak, Krana and Kraata. They seem to jump to conclusions on a few things :P

 

Second is I am fairly certain that the Komau is more effective on dumber Rahi than smart, as it is a simpler mind to control. Although I believe there are Rahi that are too dumb that cannot be controlled by it. I am guessing that the Mask fo Rahi Control's upper hand is it can control those Rahi, as it is contorling Rahi and not minds.

 

The next thing Baron is that you see Teridax not using his power on Keetongu as him not being able to use it. Remember that Makuta have 42 different Kraata powers, along with the power of shadow, their masks powers and incredible brute strength. In Antroz's own words:

 

The challenge of being a Makuta is choosing which powers to use to destroy your enemies. It gets boring using the same ones all the time. Variety is the spice of destruction, after all.

 

So while it is possible that Teridax could not control Keetongu, I find it more likely he did not want it to be over so easily, and so used his other powers instead. Same goes for him controlling the Manas. Maybe he couldn't control all of them, but he is also so sadistic that he probably turned them on each other just for the laughs.

 

Now that that is out of the way, your theory does make some sense, but there is a hole. Kraata and Krana do not form civilizations, yet they are not Rahi, and thus I would not think Rahi Control would work on them, although I do not believe this has been proven. Also, BS01 says that most Rahi do not have the willpower to resist the Mask of Rahi Control power, with possible exceptions of Krahka and Keetongu. So I'd say the answer might be in there, that the deciding factor is willpower and not intelligence. For example, gorillas are intelligent, but they don't really have the same willpower that we do in being able to push their bodies through pain to do things, resist a sort of mental invasion, etc. And it seems like possibly even Krahka and Keetongu wouldn't be able to resist it. I hope that all made sense :P

 

VMN

With Teridax and Keetongu, Teridax was trying to deal with TSO, Voporak, and Sentrahk.  He was desperate to regain the Vahi, or at least keep it out of TSO's hands.  As such, I don't think he would play around or take his time in dealing with Keetongu.

 

Also, Kraata are like Krana in that they do not have individual minds/wills.  They act for the good of the Makuta (which theoretically could order them to build a city).  I consider them automatons rather than beings, and as such they would be outside the qualifications for Rahi.  

 

I should have made it more clear that I considered a species not to be Rahi if it was shown that members of the species (not necessarily the whole species) exist within civilization.  Thus, a Matoran could live as a hermit in the jungle, but he would not be a Rahi, since members of his species do build civilizations.  Of course, this would not include exceptional members of a species.  For example, there could be a group of mutated Ussal Crabs which spoke and built a city, and were therefore sapient beings rather than Rahi.  All Ussal would not then cease to be considered Rahi as a result.

 

Finally, would Krahka be able to resist mental invasion if she shifted into something with telepathy or mental shields?


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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 09:24 PM

Just so you know, I very nearly closed this as a dupe of this topic:

 

http://www.bzpower.c...showtopic=10252

 

But I guess you're asking something more specific with Rahi Control so I'll let it go I guess. Just refer to my posts and others there about what counts as a Rahi or not in general; I'd rather not repeat all that so soon now. :P Other than the general declaration that there is definitely some confusion about this from what we were told so far.

 

Thus, Rahi can be defined as species in the MU which do not form the same types of societies and structures as species like Matoran, who therefore refer to them by the term "not us".

This seems reasonable, yes, at least by the Matoran's definition (which it was stated differs from the "real" one, though who defines the real one is also unclear).

 

There could be exceptions -- the Rahaga come to mind, but they're not an entire species, and the Matoran didn't even get to meet them until they had already heard they used to be Toa. But the general tendency does seem to be there, yes.

 

I'm really not sure of your assumptions/thoughts on the timing of some of those things. I think for example Greg only brought up the Matoran thinking of the Bahrag as Rahi because someone happened to ask him. Whether it was established before that or not I have no idea. But I agree that the Rahi Control power is almost certainly using the definition of "animal" rather than "not-us".

 

I also agree about the Kanohi Dragon likely having a mind not easily controlled, although whether the Toa that happened to answer the call would have the right mask is more debatable, especially since it was wreaking havoc in Ta-Metru which is where new masks could be made to hand to those Toa if needed at other times. They also might simply not have found a way to mix that power yet, who knows? (This might be testable, just thought of it off the top of my head. But if not, then we couldn't rule out that it was mixed later, possibly even as a response to this incident.) It might only be a Kraata/Rahkshi/Makuta power, and Teridax was probably fine with the DH's attacks on the city and if someone had sent him requests to help, he probably would have "lost it in the mail". :P

 

With Keetongu... I'm on the fence. Some Makuta made him, so on the one hand you'd think he'd count... but then he's smart and has devoted his life to fighting other things the Makuta made (the Visorak), so it would feel rather unfair to let the power affect him. Perhaps it could affect young members of his species but as they gain experience they cross the bounds into "Minds" not "Rahi". I agree with VMN's points about how we can't just assume that because Terry didn't use that power he couldn't (if we did that there are many situations where we'd have to consider him virtually powerless :P).

 

Now that that is out of the way, your theory does make some sense, but there is a hole. Kraata and Krana do not form civilizations, yet they are not Rahi, and thus I would not think Rahi Control would work on them, although I do not believe this has been proven.

Isn't this mixing up two different definitions? I took the civilization point to be about how the Matoran define things (somewhat inaccurately), but Rahi Control based on a more technical definition. They very well might call Kraata Rahi. They're slugs, after all. Krana I would not expect them to. They would think of them as "creepy brain things" methinks. :P And actually, the Krana very well could be considered as having formed a strange civilization, given all the advanced tactics and everything they handle, like squad leaders and the like. Of course, you could apply that logic to ants... so yeah... I dunno.

 

With Teridax and Keetongu, Teridax was trying to deal with TSO, Voporak, and Sentrahk.  He was desperate to regain the Vahi, or at least keep it out of TSO's hands.  As such, I don't think he would play around or take his time in dealing with Keetongu.

Eh.... I don't know about that. I'd have to review that section I guess. But to me, "Teridax" and "desperate" are not generally two words that go together. He might put on a front outwardly for strategic purposes, but inside I tend to think of him as chillingly calm and calculating, always confident in his core. This was also after he'd abandoned his original plan with the Vahi in favor of the Plan plan, after being protocaged. Certainly he still wanted it, but desperate I don't buy. Especially given his lack of use of things like mind reading when facing Vakama later, as has been discussed out in past topics.


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#7 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 15 2013 - 04:02 PM

The Mask of Rahi Control is a Kanohi that allows its user to control one or more Rahi simultaneously. Although it can be used on insects, it is not as effective on them as other kinds of Rahi. Most Rahi do not have the amount of willpower needed to resist the mask-user's control, with the possible exceptions of Krahka and Keetongu.

 

Note that the Mask of Mind Control often can only allow the user to control one thing at a time. The difference could be between focusing a high-powered weapon on a single strong will versus controlling a lot of weak-willed things. 

 

1.) I loved DiD 3. However, I have a question about the Mask of Rahi Control. What advantages does it offer over a Mask of Mind Control? I remember when the Mask of Flight was introduced, everybody assumed the Mask of Levitation was useless in comparison, but then you explained the differences and advantages both offer. So can you do the same here?

Thanks a lotMask of Mind Control can only be used on one target at a time. Mask of Rahi Control can be used on more than one, so for instance, you could use it on a small flock of Gukko and get all of them, rather than just one.

 

2) Rahi don’t have that kind of willpower, other than maybe Krahka or Keetongu. A Makuta most likely wouldn’t need to use it much, since they already have that power. I don’t have a range for it, but it does work on multiple targets at once.

 

4. Is there a difference between the Mask of Mind Control and the Mask of Rahi Control? For instance, if you had the Mask of Mind Control, would you even need the Mask of Rahi Control?

4) Yes, because not all Rahi have that much of a mind to control.

 

I thought I'd bring this in because Rahi Control doesn't state specifically that it controls the creatures' minds. I don't know how else you would control Rahi, though. The protodermis in their legs or something? 


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#8 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Aug 15 2013 - 04:11 PM

Well, that was well thought out and I think I agree. However I think "Rahi" is probably also defined (in part) by the fact Makuta made bascially all of them from viruses. The first Rahi (giant see monsters) were put in the MU by the Great Beings, so they seem to be exceptions to this rule, which suggests this is only part of the definition. However, the Bahrag Queens don't seem to be Rahi...hmm...Not sure about this XD


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#9 Offline DuplexBeGreat

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Posted Aug 16 2013 - 03:25 AM

With Teridax and Keetongu, Teridax was trying to deal with TSO, Voporak, and Sentrahk.  He was desperate to regain the Vahi, or at least keep it out of TSO's hands.  As such, I don't think he would play around or take his time in dealing with Keetongu.

Eh.... I don't know about that. I'd have to review that section I guess. But to me, "Teridax" and "desperate" are not generally two words that go together. He might put on a front outwardly for strategic purposes, but inside I tend to think of him as chillingly calm and calculating, always confident in his core. This was also after he'd abandoned his original plan with the Vahi in favor of the Plan plan, after being protocaged. Certainly he still wanted it, but desperate I don't buy. Especially given his lack of use of things like mind reading when facing Vakama later, as has been discussed out in past topics.
He was almost always perfectly serene and mastermind-y, but I think this is one of the two instances where, in some way, he wasn't in control. The other one was in the Kingdom, right when he realized what Matoro was doing. He knew he couldn't win, and it showed in him emotionally. In the Time Trap incident, he still seemed calm, but he was worried inside, I think, because the big three-way fight wasn't Planned, and there was of course that thing with the possible destruction of the universe later. Even if he was still calm during the first part, I'd think he wouldn't hold back, just in case. He must have known there was a possiblity of something dangerous happening with the power of Time involved.

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