Is Teridax one of the greatest and best fictional villains ever?

[ALVIS]

That's precisely it, though. When you're a super-powerful Makuta with 42 Kraata powers and a mishmash of other ones that the authors decided to give you because why not, it's almost always going to be easier to just kill everyone in your path. Always.

 

That doesn't mean you should do it.

 

I don't know how this argument is supposed to convince me Teridax wasn't a psychopath. Is it because Teridax didn't kill for pleasure, just for convenience? It doesn't matter whether he got any particular enjoyment out of it. The very fact that he consistently chose to snuff out the lives of hundreds or thousands over the course of his life, all to further his own ambitions and plans, is why he's a reprehensible and horrifying villain.

 

Excuse me for getting worked up over this. I just honestly don't see how "it was easier to just kill 'em all so he could go back to making Rahi/killing his alternate self" is supposed to be an excuse.

[MT Zehvor]

No, and he's nowhere close.

 

-MT

[Archer Vonn]

his plan was certainly ambitious but when you dumb it down like you have, it sounds ridiculous

 

also, the fact that hannibal lecter didn't make your list suggests to me that someone with a more appreciative view of villainy should've written that list

[fishers64]

That's precisely it, though. When you're a super-powerful Makuta with 42 Kraata powers and a mishmash of other ones that the authors decided to give you because why not, it's almost always going to be easier to just kill everyone in your path. Always.

 

That doesn't mean you should do it.

 

I don't know how this argument is supposed to convince me Teridax wasn't a psychopath. Is it because Teridax didn't kill for pleasure, just for convenience? It doesn't matter whether he got any particular enjoyment out of it. The very fact that he consistently chose to snuff out the lives of hundreds or thousands over the course of his life, all to further his own ambitions and plans, is why he's a reprehensible and horrifying villain.

 

Excuse me for getting worked up over this. I just honestly don't see how "it was easier to just kill 'em all so he could go back to making Rahi/killing his alternate self" is supposed to be an excuse.

It's not an excuse. Rather, an explanation. (Also Alt. Teridax did not use those powers to kill the Toa, rather the warhammer he happened to have on hand, but that's beside the point.)

 

 

psychopath  

noun

a person with a psychopathic personality, which manifests as amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.

Amoral behavior: check. Antisocial: check. Lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships: check. Extreme egocentricity: Maybe. Failure to learn from experience: No, he thought around his failure while stuck in that cage.

 

I don't know if any of those apply to alt. Teridax. But you were probably thinking of this definition:

 

 

psychopath

— n

Also called: sociopath a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts

Granted, that's true of both of them.

 

My issue is not with that though, it's with this:

 

The core of Teridax is not scheming or planning or anything devious like that... it's just a sheer, callous disregard for other beings' right to life and liberty.

But notice that both Teridaxes didn't kill people just because - (that's my real point) - but killed to advance their own personal ends (i.e. plans, schemes, objective of the moment). Otherwise Makuta would have killed Vakama in Time Trap and singlehandedly wiped out all the Matoran on Mata Nui, etc, etc. Their killing or lack of killing was tied to their plans. Frankly, I could see Teridax doing good things if he could find a way to benefit from it. He wanted admiration and respect, and his plans were designed to get it.

 

Alt. Teridax wanted to kill Main Teridax (setting things right, as it were), and his plans were designed to do it. If it would have helped him to leave the Shadow Takanuvas alive he would have done so.

 

The plans - and what they want at any given moment - is why they might not regard other beings' life and liberty as important. Therefore the plan is at the core.

 

And having 42 Kraata powers doesn't make the decision to kill/not kill any easier. What if you can get them on your side, and thereby have an advantage? What if they have information you might need later? What if, believing that you don't want something to happen, they do something you want (as in the case of the Toa Nuva)? For a planner, those factors must be weighed, and Teridax didn't kill most of his enemies, probably because of these factors. He probably killed off more of his "allies" in the end.

Edited May 3, 2014 by fishers64

[ALVIS]

Ah. Thank you for clarifying. In that case, then I see where you're coming from.

 

However, I still disagree with you to some extent. It doesn't matter whether Teridax killed people "just because" or to advance the plan. Note that when he fought the Barraki, he didn't have a plan -- they were his inspiration. He didn't (attempt to) kill them to further the plan, he (attempted to) kill them because he wanted to. That's why I label him a psychopath (and yes, I use the latter definition of the word; not sure if that's medically accurate, but whatevs).

 

That definition also applies to alt. Teridax, as you've noticed, which is why I find it very hard to swallow Greg's definition of him as a "good guy". The way I see him, he's a Teridax who's already got a pretty comfy position of power in his home world and gets plenty of respect and admiration. The main difference is that alt. Teridax seems to actually care, at least a little bit, about the imbalance of light and shadow in the core dimension. In that way, he's slightly more moral than our Teridax, since he's technically trying to help the core dimension. That he goes about that plan by killing people, though... that's where he and I have to disagree.

 

And now I hope I've made my position clear.

[fishers64]

Ah. Thank you for clarifying. In that case, then I see where you're coming from.

 

However, I still disagree with you to some extent. It doesn't matter whether Teridax killed people "just because" or to advance the plan. Note that when he fought the Barraki, he didn't have a plan -- they were his inspiration. He didn't (attempt to) kill them to further the plan, he (attempted to) kill them because he wanted to. That's why I label him a psychopath (and yes, I use the latter definition of the word; not sure if that's medically accurate, but whatevs).

That seems to be because of Brotherhood law. "There could be only one possible fate for such traitors." City of the Lost says. Also, that's the Barraki's belief that they would be killed by the Brotherhood. When Teridax defends himself to Botar, he says "They are my prisoners." He seems to enjoy toying with them - he might have left them to rot in jail. Who knows? (Especially given that they had tried to overthrow the Great Spirit...anyway.)

 

The book says he later "hopes they are dead" but doesn't explain why. Maybe its because he doesn't want the information they have in the wrong hands. Later when they do prove an obstacle to the Plan he doesn't waste time toying with them and tries to kill them.

 

That definition also applies to alt. Teridax, as you've noticed, which is why I find it very hard to swallow Greg's definition of him as a "good guy". The way I see him, he's a Teridax who's already got a pretty comfy position of power in his home world and gets plenty of respect and admiration. The main difference is that alt. Teridax seems to actually care, at least a little bit, about the imbalance of light and shadow in the core dimension. In that way, he's slightly more moral than our Teridax, since he's technically trying to help the core dimension. That he goes about that plan by killing people, though... that's where he and I have to disagree.

[Quisoves Potoo]

That definition also applies to alt. Teridax, as you've noticed, which is why I find it very hard to swallow Greg's definition of him as a "good guy". The way I see him, he's a Teridax who's already got a pretty comfy position of power in his home world and gets plenty of respect and admiration. The main difference is that alt. Teridax seems to actually care, at least a little bit, about the imbalance of light and shadow in the core dimension. In that way, he's slightly more moral than our Teridax, since he's technically trying to help the core dimension. That he goes about that plan by killing people, though... that's where he and I have to disagree.

I think there's more to his morality than that. While he may not be up to the standards of the Toa Code, he seems to genuinely care about unity, duty, and destiny, three things that the Core Universe Teridax had little regard for. As for the Takanuva, they were threatening his life. Perhaps it's not a good thing that he's matter-of-fact about killing them, but is he really showing an outright disregard for life?

I think that this exchange from "Reign of Shadows" is telling:

"If they died, maybe it was a mercy," said Teridax. "Maybe they are better off not seeing what their universe has come to."

"Now you sound like our Teridax," said Mazeka. "I guess you two aren't as far apart as I'd like to think."

Teridax shook his head. "A turn to the left instead of the right, a wound received or avoided, rising from slumber an hour too early or too late ... these are the little things lifetimes hinge on, Mazeka. Your Teridax took a step on a path that circumstances allowed me to avoid. If circumstances had been different, who knows?"

"Meaning that if you took control of this universe instead of him ...?"

"I might be just as wicked," Teridax answered. "It is always a possibility."

 

He resembles the Core Universe Teridax in some aspects of his personality, but he seems to think himself rather different morally. He read Vultraz's mind, and has talked with Mazeka, so he likely knows a lot about his counterpart. So he has an idea of what the Core Teridax is like, and he seems to think that he's not as wicked. Perhaps he has deluded himself, but I think it's worth something.

[Lenny7092]

Although Teridax is a bloodthirsty and heartless evil genius, he does know who he wants to kill and who he will either need for his plans or just toy with them for fun. I mean, Teridax may not have a moral sense in killing people. I think he probably just wants to torture people for entertainment. I also think that Teridax only wants to kill certain people because they either may not be useful to him or go against him, and I think that he relies on how powerful he is compared to the people, either solo or as a group. For example, Teridax killed the Karda Nui Makuta because he knows that they would oppose him if they figured out that they got set up. And also, Teridax mind-controlled the Toa Hagah in the Core Processer into thinking that they defeated him because he sees no threat or need to him because he is more powerful that the whole Toa Team combined.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Lenny7092

[Quisoves Potoo]

Teridax killed the Karda Nui Makuta because he knows that they would oppose him if they figured out that they got set up.

That seems somewhat circular. They were set up to be killed because Teridax did not want them to discover that he had set them up to be killed?

He killed them because he saw them as potential threats to his universal supremacy. If he could overthrow Mata Nui, one of them might do the same to him.

[Lenny7092]

 

Teridax killed the Karda Nui Makuta because he knows that they would oppose him if they figured out that they got set up.

That seems somewhat circular. They were set up to be killed because Teridax did not want them to discover that he had set them up to be killed?

He killed them because he saw them as potential threats to his universal supremacy. If he could overthrow Mata Nui, one of them might do the same to him.

 

Yes, and exactly that Teridax did. He killed the Karda Nui Makuta by telling them to go to Karda Nui, where they would get killed by the Energy Storms once Mata Nui's Great Spirit Robot body is reawakened. This shows how malevolent and strategic can Teridax as an evil, murderous, and mastermind-based villain. I think that Teridax is afraid that he can't kill two or more Makuta in one battle, so as the new Great Spirit, he can as he is no longer afraid.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Lenny7092

[fishers64]

But he didn't kill Miserix, and sent him out to outer space instead. Not that that didn't actually work as a good strategy. Point being is that he's a mastermind first, not a killer, but I think that point has been hammered. (pun intended )

 

I think there's more to his morality than that. While he may not be up to the standards of the Toa Code, he seems to genuinely care about unity, duty, and destiny, three things that the Core Universe Teridax had little regard for. As for the Takanuva, they were threatening his life. Perhaps it's not a good thing that he's matter-of-fact about killing them, but is he really showing an outright disregard for life?

I think another look at the Reign of Shadows might answer this:

 

 

 

Teridax studied the three shadow Takanuva who blocked his path. They had been sent by the Makuta Teridax of this universe – the one who controlled the giant robot inside of which millions lived – to kill him and his companion, Mazeka. It was a good plan. After all, one Takanuva would be a challenge – three corrupted ones were deadly.

Teridax had multiple powers of his own to choose from. In his time and in his universe, he had been a great warrior. No doubt Makuta expected him to pit his energies against those of the Takanuva in an apocalyptic final battle and, outnumbered, die horribly after a few minutes. Mazeka would most likely not even last that long, though the Matoran would make sure his killers remembered the fight.

Ah, Makuta, thought Teridax. We are the same being in different universes, but I am not you. You’re a plotter … a schemer … not wanting to get your claws dirty, if you can avoid it. You would think of all sorts of ways to fight the Takanuva from a distance … all of which would fail.

Teridax unlimbered his war hammer. You would never think of doing this.

 

He thinks of the Takanuvas as minions, pieces in a strategy, not as people. He thinks of them as deadly threats, and well they are.