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I do tend to agree more with the detractors of the original post than the supporters, but both have some good points.

 

I personally believe that G2 does have central themes, including many that have carried over from G1, but does not conveying them strongly. At least not yet.

 

 

I always thought that the main theme for Bionicle was "Trying to end an age of decline, the heroes try to return things to how they were in the past, only to discover the way to a different, better future." 

 

The story of both generations are set in ages of decline Even in flashbacks, Metru Nui is in the middle of being corrupted, Bara Magna had apathetic leaders and war that was out of control, and Makuta grew jealous of his brother Ekimu.

 

Heroes try to end or prevent the decline, sometimes failing (Toa Metru, '08, Ekimu knocking off the Mask of Ultimate Power) and sometimes succeeding (Matoro and the Mask of Life, Journey's End, Clearing out the City of the Mask Makers).

 

Villains also try to make a better world, whether for themselves or for everyone, but do through unacceptable and misguided means (Makuta thinking that he can be a better Great Spirit than Mata Nui, the Bohrok, the Barraki trying to retake the MU, G2 Makuta thinking that he can better society and show up his brother by dabbling in forbidden methods).

 

And in the end, even though the world has irreversibly changed, they end up in a better world. Spherus Magna is whole, wild, unexplored, and alive. The Agori are no longer consumed by petty in-fighting and wars. The Matoran are free from tyrannical rule. Both civilizations unite and make a better future than anything accomplished in the past. I'm sure that G2's ending will have similar notes.

 

Even though G2 is weaker at conveying themes at this point, I think it is completely unfair to compare it to the 9 year long, largely complete story of G1. And while there are some fair comparisons to be made of the first year and a half of G1 to G2, there are some areas where G2 has G1 beat.

 

The funny thing is, if you asked me in January, I would have probably agreed that G2 was largely lifeless with its unbearably slow start. But post Revenge of the Skull Spiders, Journey to One, and especially Battle of the Mask Makers, I think that G2 is full of life with characters that are defined through the story and not G1 nostalgia or just the sets.

Edited by J46 Nui
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Thank you for this thread man, thank you. I hope this sheds light on the fact that alot of us are displeased with the new bionicle.

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Wasn't Time Bionicle G2's theme? One of the producers even said that, if I recall correctly.

That's a good point. And with the Mask of Time taking a more prominent role, I think we're starting to see that theme bear fruit.


Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

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Wasn't Time Bionicle G2's theme? One of the producers even said that, if I recall correctly.

Hey that's actually pretty interesting and can be expanded to maybe TIME TRAVEL? you have to admit that's a cool idea.


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Thank you for this thread man, thank you. I hope this sheds light on the fact that alot of us are displeased with the new bionicle.

I don't think that's news to anybody. A lot of people have been displeased with pretty much EVERY era of Bionicle, and quite vocal about that. There's nothing making the gripes people have about the Okoto sets and story any worse than the gripes people in the past had about the Metru Nui or Voya Nui sets and story. Edited by Aanchir
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Wasn't Time Bionicle G2's theme? One of the producers even said that, if I recall correctly.

That's a good point. And with the Mask of Time taking a more prominent role, I think we're starting to see that theme bear fruit.

 

Wait, how is "time" a theme?

 

I could see "Striving to preserve the good in the world despite the ravages of time" as a possible theme. Did you mean something like this?


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Wasn't Time Bionicle G2's theme? One of the producers even said that, if I recall correctly.

That's a good point. And with the Mask of Time taking a more prominent role, I think we're starting to see that theme bear fruit.

 

Wait, how is "time" a theme?

 

I could see "Striving to preserve the good in the world despite the ravages of time" as a possible theme. Did you mean something like this?

 

Well, it's not so much a narrative theme (i.e. an overall message or moral) so much as a conceptual theme. Time as a concept has been woven through a lot of the story, from explicit plot elements like the Mask of Time and Temple of Time to the description of the Toa as "timeless heroes".


Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

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Wasn't Time Bionicle G2's theme? One of the producers even said that, if I recall correctly.

That's a good point. And with the Mask of Time taking a more prominent role, I think we're starting to see that theme bear fruit.

 

Wait, how is "time" a theme?

 

I could see "Striving to preserve the good in the world despite the ravages of time" as a possible theme. Did you mean something like this?

 

Well, it's not so much a narrative theme (i.e. an overall message or moral) so much as a conceptual theme. Time as a concept has been woven through a lot of the story, from explicit plot elements like the Mask of Time and Temple of Time to the description of the Toa as "timeless heroes".

 

That makes more sense.

 

 

 

 

Two notes:

1. BIONICLE doesn't have to have just ONE theme.

 

2. I would like to comment a bit on the unity vs 'lone wolf' in BIONICLE. It appears to me that BIONICLE explicitly affirms the value of working together to achieve a goal, especially in the UDD virtues, Toa teams (especially the Toa Kaita), and the later story serials' collection of rag-tag people from all walks of life fighting together against Teridax after he has control of their universe. From 2001-2010, BIONICLE has a dominant, overt emphasis on the value of interdependence. BIONICLE does also contain a number of examples of people doing things on their own. In Time Trap, Vakama retrieves the Vahi by himself, for example. Matoro and Ignika reviving and reawakening the great spirit are also examples. There's also the time in the comics (and MoL film) where Kopaka rescues Onua and Kopaka from underground. Finally I present the MNOLG examples of the Toa showing up to save the day--Kopaka beating the Muaka, Gali beating the tarakava, and Onua saving Lewa (because Onua saves everyone!)

 

I don't think that this means that BIONICLE is inconsistent, but rather that one theme of BIONICLE is not necessarily "work together to save the day" but is rather "interdependence is often essential." Given that we live in a division of labor economy, I think that this fits the cultural context of BIONICLE's creation and growth. In a division of labor economy, people specialize in different areas and exchange their goods and/or services, so that no one has to do everything for themselves. While everyone in the market needs everyone else, each is an independent actor (assuming a measure of freedom) and does some things without collaboration. I can (if I choose) paint my house alone, for example, without needing to assemble a team of heroes to help me get it done.

 

That's my two cents.

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I am working on a tabletop dice-based combat system for BIONICLE sets.

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she quite clearly pointed out what part of the definition she intended to address, using her own words rather than those of the primary source.

The problem was the argument wasn't just using the same definitions in different words; it was seemingly ignoring the definition that was right there, of a unifying idea, or adding something to it without making it clear that it was being added intentionally. Anyway, it's still probably 200 times deeper into story theory than the topics S&T usually gets, so appreciated regardless. :D

 

I... do not see where her argument strays from the definition she stated? She says she intends to address a meaning intended for kids to grasp, goes on to set aside other aspects of what "theme" means, and delves into why she thought G2 did not seem to have a meaning for kids to grasp. I wouldn't agree with all her points, but they seem to be coherently tied to her stated definition. Care to show me where the argument diverges? Maybe you mean somewhere else in the topic? I've read everyone's posts here and, where people are contributing to the conversation, nearly everyone else has also tended to adhere to the stated definition of theme outside of (in my opinion) YJLTG's post and your follow-up to it, plus a couple posts above which point out a, as Lyichir said, conceptual theme rather than a narrative theme.

 

 

That statement "rabbits are the theme of a diorama about rabbits" and "BIONICLE is the theme of the BIONICLE Storyline" are both technically correct by definition 1 and the "motif" portion of definition #2, but neither address fisher's explicit statement about what she intended to address.

I think he was just trying to be witty and a bit subtle, and I (thought I) got it, and maybe others didn't. Then again, if how I took it isn't as obvious as I thought, maybe I misread and he was just being silly for fun. I don't know. (To be fair, if I had thought of those figures of speech I would have tried to give a hint that that's what they were a few lines down or something.)

 

The problem with that is that just beyond his use of the "diorama example" is him saying that both G1 and G2 are meaningless, message-less, and do nothing to engage with some "deep philosophical issue". His given information regarding the true theme of BIONICLE is as follows:

 

There is, in fact, an actual theme to Bionicle.

It's Bionicle itself. That's the theme.

 

If you go to someone who makes a diorama and ask, "What's the theme?", the man would simply say, "It's about rabbits". (We're assuming the diorama included many rabbit figures)

So, using this logic, Bionicle is its own theme.

To further extend his argument, let's say I have no idea about BIONICLE, and you and I are standing at a bookshelf with the all the G1 books and comics, and I ask you "what're these about?" You have, basically, three options here: 1. Tell me that it is a story about bio-mechanical heroes who fight to save a universe. (the basic plot idea). 2. Tell me that it is a story about individuals learning to work together to fight back in the face of overwhelming odds. (the narrative theme of G1 we've basically all acknowledged). and 3. Tell me "It's about BIONICLE." (extremely unhelpful)

 

Well OF COURSE it's about BIONICLE. Of course a diorama with a ton of rabbits is likely to be about rabbits. But saying either of those things tells us nothing about the message of either, intended or unintended.

 

And, again, he goes on to state that he believes there is no message to either G2 or G1, so trying to twist his words into saying he meant that there was a message does not work. Indeed, he himself acknowledges that his statement about BIONICLE being the theme of BIONICLE is not part of the argument at hand about thematic messages.

 

 

And on another note:

 

You may pay lip service to the idea that you change your opinion when you're proven wrong, but you rarely get there

There's more to it than that. Being willing to admit when we're wrong is great, but it's better to think through ideas that come to us and avoid being wrong in the first place, as well as add cautions when you don't actually have sound support for something.

 

That's a double-edged sword, though, because it means you won't often be wrong, so people don't get to see you admitting it, because you're actually getting rid of the being wrong before you even speak, rejecting ideas. Also means others may not have thought of what you do so might assume it's wrong because they missed steps that, again, will need cleared up in further discussion (that part's fine as long as people remain civil and want to find the truth too, since this is a discussion forum, though -- but occasionally I run into people who struggle with that, and I get it).

 

I did have to admit I was wrong a lot in my early days here, though. Life tends to grant experience. :)

 

Well, this is the most pompous thing I've ever read from you. From my view over here, the clear implication here is that you, Bonesiii, are rarely ever wrong,

 

That's a double-edged sword, though, because it means you won't often be wrong, so people don't get to see you admitting it, because you're actually getting rid of the being wrong before you even speak, rejecting ideas.

especially these days,

 

I did have to admit I was wrong a lot in my early days here, though. Life tends to grant experience. :)

 

because you, Bonesiii, think through all these ideas

 

Being willing to admit when we're wrong is great, but it's better to think through ideas that come to us and avoid being wrong in the first place, as well as add cautions when you don't actually have sound support for something.

and so you, Bonesiii, are almost always either right or just unsure. Though I do love how you've hedged your bets so that you can avoid having to admit to these implications. (all emphasis is mine)

 

This general attitude has come across to me in a lot of things, but I see it most clearly here. It is not appreciated. I am not so vindictive as to think you intend this, but you really ought to be aware that this is how you appear.

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Zox, first, to your question, I was talking about the second dictionary definition saying a "unifying idea" without any comment on quality, and fishers (rightly) identified serious quality problems in G2, and seemed to mix that into the definition. I thought I made that clear, but if not, I apologize. :)

 

 

To your rest, I hope people will pardon a bit of a speech off-topic, but this needs said, I think, if only because maybe it'll help somebody else out there who may have similar struggles as me.

 

Yeah, believe it or not, but I see that appearance. I said so in the post you were quoting, though not in detail as it's my job to refocus discussion back on topic. :P But if that wasn't enough, maybe it's time for some more detail. So here we go.

 

It's an age old riddle -- if you actually learn the methods to avoid being wrong, unfortunately then you have less opportunities to be seen admitting to being wrong. It can create an illusion of false pride, of a lack of humility -- even a real temptation to give into those things. You have to know that going in and choose to be okay with it. It comes with a price. It's worth it, but not a cakewalk. And besides that, it also teaches honest awareness of your own flaws. If you'll pardon the bold there. :P It makes awareness of my own flaws even stronger.

 

Why?

 

Because I have to be rejecting bad ideas I come up with all the time!

 

I often find myself feeling really, really silly. Maybe I could stand to talk about that experience more often, huh? :D But it happens a lot. The nice thing is, it gives a good reward. You find that you can come up with ideas (after rejecting many others) that others tell you are very good, more often. Some often tell me they're amazed I can do that over and over. But I know it's not me -- it was just sheer dumb luck that I got to know some of the "tricks of the trade" of truthseeking. I'm as flawed as anybody.

 

But think about it -- that also means these methods can be learned by anybody. :)

 

So, it gives me inspiration to keep going, despite the occasional people who will misunderstand and take it completely the wrong way. I know I can bring some benefit to people, perhaps not very well, but it's better than not trying. And perhaps I can continue to learn from my mistakes and get better at it, you know?

 

I still think I haven't yet found the secret to the riddle -- but I see that some others do seem to have found it, like my grandma. I aspire to someday be able to both avoid being wrong and avoid people thinking that I wouldn't admit to it if it happened. I haven't found it, yet, though, unfortunately. :( As you're showing. :P

 

I might not have the solution yet, but I did learn something that seems to usually help in this situation.

 

Being freely self-critical teaches not just to be aware of my own serious weaknesses, but to recognize that they are balanced by some strengths, and I seem to get by somehow on those -- and more importantly, I can understand that the same is true of you; of everyone. We all have unique strengths and weaknesses. It's part of being human.

 

That was one of the hardest lessons I had to learn -- to appreciate others' strengths and weaknesses being different from mine. I think I see weaknesses on your part, now being directed against me.

 

But even though you would do that, I can still see past them and see unique strengths that are very good. :)

 

You may worry that I wouldn't, because the normal human reaction to criticism is to just reject and be defensive. But I do. I see that you are speaking from a situation where you have a strength you wish others had, and you hope (I hope :P) to be able to teach it to others. That's good. I hope I can learn it.

 

That said, I also think we all need to learn how to be comfortable with our strengths and weaknesses -- our personalities -- being different from others, and be comfortable with others' being different. :) I want to learn from others' strengths, so I can hopefully minimize the harm of my own weaknesses, but I also want to accept my own personality and not try to be somebody else, and accept others for who they are too. So that's my approach to things -- take it as a given that others will be different, but also know that maybe I could still help them improve in some ways. :)

 

Anywho, hope it helps. :shrugs:

 

Now, please, let's get back on topic. :)

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Wasn't Time Bionicle G2's theme? One of the producers even said that, if I recall correctly.

Hey that's actually pretty interesting and can be expanded to maybe TIME TRAVEL? you have to admit that's a cool idea.
No, bad Tahu3.0. Put down the Continuation Theory ball and step away from it slowly. /jokes

 

Also, time travel has the potential to be more of a mess than anything else in the story so far. I think they'll leave it out.

Edited by Regitnui
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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Addition I missed in the previous post -- sorry, I skipped right over the part about You just lost the game's post... Yeah, I didn't catch the later part of his post at the time. Looking at the timestamps, I can't be sure what was actually there, as my next post after his comes before his edit. I do recall the line about me saying conflicts ended in 1v1, and I don't recall saying that, so I don't know what happened there. I wondered if he confused me for somebody else or he was trying to rephrase something from a while ago that I had forgotten.

 

Maybe it was all there, but I was only skimming some posts at the time, as I said, so yeah. I think I did skim that part. I get where you're coming from there. :shrugs:

 

That said, your "let's say I don't know anything about Bionicle" point doesn't really work there, because, again, he's talking to longtime fans, for the most part, who do know a lot about it. Anyway, I wasn't trying to endorse everything in his post, just that a theme can be condensed, in a sense, down to one word or simple concept, if you're speaking to somebody who does know that context behind the word (what the word means), like everybody would generally know about rabbits. And at this point we may be overthinking that one post. :P But FTR.

 

Also, I should remind you to be careful to stick to our rules of civility. Insulting somebody as you did, whether staff or otherwise, as you know by now I would hope, is flaming and is against the rules. I hesitate to bring it up as it does sound like you're trying to be constructive, but after thinking it over, I do think the reminder needs to be said. If you are unsure where that line is, please PM me. :)

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Yes, it does.

To be a not-as-good reboot of G1 - THAT'S its theme!

 

Though I'm a big Ryder Windham fan. I haven't read any of his books for BIONICLE yet, but maybe he can do something about the story problems.


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I don't think the problem with Bionicle G2 is its theme. I think its following a similar start to G1.

 

My problems would be the character development, simplistic writing in the animartions, weak support characters and villains, and a lack of supporting story material.

 

Unfortunately Bionicle is centralized around the toys. The story is 'tacked on' to support sales. And when the toys ain't sellin, the story ain't developing. Thus we see a very similar story run from 2015 to 2016.

 


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Using the G1 novels as an example, IMO earliest G1 novels written by C.A. Hapka do have an overaching theme (or should I say "message") about Unity and teamwork. Once Greg Farshtey picked up the story, I am unable to pinpoint any particular theme that encapsulates the rest of G1, as some previous posters in this thread has pointed out. G2 is similar in this sense as AFAIK it has yet to significantly explore any particular theme or deliver any particular message across.

 

That being said, if anyone identified any overaching themes for G1, you are more than welcomed to inform me of your findings/thoughts :)


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You have a reasonable point, I'll grant you that.  But consider this:  Gen 1 existed for 10 years, I mean, 10 fricking years!  That's ten years of storyline to establish multiple themes, to well establish the characters, and to flesh out  different things about the storyline.  Now, I won't disagree with you.  At this current point, Gen 2 has no theme.  But if you take a look back at Gen 1, and see where it was by its second season (the Bohrok), then I doubt you'll find a theme there either.  It wasn't really until the Books that the Toa became good understandable characters, and only in the latter part of Season 3 and the Rahkshi was there anything close to a theme.

Also, another point.  When you read a book or book series, do you stop halfway through and think about what the theme of the book is?  Perhaps.  Will it be easy to find?  If you're a decent author, I'd say no.  The theme is the culmination of the entire series or book.  BIONICLE Gen 2 is still on its first legs, and the arc is incomplete.  I would say that, of course there's no theme yet, because the story hasn't ended.  We only know that Gen 1 has a theme because hindsight is 20-20.

A final reminder.  I will admit, Gen 2 isn't quite as good as Gen 1.  Yet.  I'm sure, however, that if you could go back in time and look at Gen 1 during its second year, you probably wouldn't think it was too hot.  There was a lot of special things about Gen 1, but it wasn't like everyone thought it was the most amazing thing on planet earth when it was out.  It was only when everything began to come together that people suddenly realized, "Hey, that was actually pretty cool.  I like it."

As far as I see it, we can complain about Gen 2 until the LEGO Company shuts down, but the fact remains that Gen 2 is incomplete.  Many of the things that people loved about Gen 1--Greg's personal involvment, the online serials, the books like Time Trap that deviated from the storyline being sold on shelves, and even the depth and complication of story--didn't come until 4 to 5 years after BIONICLE started.  We're only on the 2nd year.  If we're patient with the story (and LEGO doesn't end it in 2017), I am confident that Gen 2 will be an amazing tale.

 

 

Yes, it does.

To be a not-as-good reboot of G1 - THAT'S its theme!

 

Though I'm a big Ryder Windham fan. I haven't read any of his books for BIONICLE yet, but maybe he can do something about the story problems.

Also, why so much negativity?  It's not as if LEGO has completely ruined BIONICLE.  While right now it's not Gen 1, that's a matter of perspective.  We begged LEGO for years to bring back BIONICLE, and they did.  Let's give them a chance, buy the sets, and enjoy what we've been given.

Edited by Kessen
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Thought this might be interesting to drop off here (a thread about a year old also started by fishers; it has some nice posts): http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/18374-themes-of-the-bionicle-story/


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