Opinions On Organic Species

[Loading...]

I had a question for the community on the introduction of organic, natural species in Bionicle's recent history. My question is basically this: For a majority of Bionicle's history, it has had bio-mechanical characters for its main figures. However, when Bara-Magna/Spherus-Magna was introduced, Bionicle gained fully organic or at least naturally organic characters. In my opinion, this was a bad idea. Creating organic species has, for me, defamed the Great Beings and the semi-robotic inhabitants of the MU. It may only be me, but did anyone else feel this way? Would you have rather had the Agori, Glatorian, Skrall perhaps also be creations of the Great Beings from long before the creation of Mata-Nui? What are your opinions?

[The Iron Toa]

I think it was a nice explanation of the origins of the Matoran Universe. Also, the Great Beings were referred to kind of like gods. But there isn't supposed to be any religion mentioned in Bionicle, so I think what you consider defaming them was necessary to show how they could create a world and just be natural living beings.

[Loading...]

I think it was a nice explanation of the origins of the Matoran Universe. Also, the Great Beings were referred to kind of like gods. But there isn't supposed to be any religion mentioned in Bionicle, so I think what you consider defaming them was necessary to show how they could create a world and just be natural living beings.

I have to agree with your second statement, making the Great Beings natural living beings was a good idea in my book. There was just something I didn't like about all of the older characters being robots, that weren't even meant to become as sentient as the did, and having all the other natural characters.Maybe it still just needs to grow on me.

[fishers64]

@The Iron Toa: The Agori/Glatorian were not created by the Great Beings. I like the fact there are more "natural" characters in Bionicle, and would not have liked to have seen more robotlike beings, because their were already so many of them. I like the variety; it's another world to explore and makes Bionicle less boring.But it had to grow on me, as well - at first I was kind of annoyed, because it threw in another complication to the hard-and-fast rules of Bionicle characters. As for the Great Beings being defamed, well, the MU was pretty much defamed in 2009. It was just a giant robot, a piece in a bigger picture. I don't think the organic characters did it as much as the revelation that the universe was a robot, and that it was created to do something - massive task, but not so massive as the details of the universe we had just spent 8 years learning about. The Great Beings were reduced from mystical creators to robot makers to bumbling problem-solvers who didn't seem to get things right. I like it now, but not so much then.

[The Iron Toa]

Yeah, I know the Agori and Glatorian were natural creatures, but I didn't mention it. That, along with the existence of a universe outside the MU, also 'humanizes' the Great Beings - they didn't create this 'real' world and the beings that inhabit it. I don't mind having the Matoran Universe being built for a reason and knowing that reason. But all the inventions gone wrong did make the Great Beings look like screw-ups, didn't they? Though the story wouldn't be as exciting if the the scientists' failures all ended in machines not functioning and creatures dying instead of going rogue.Maybe their first invention was something that made all their future inventions do something interesting, even if it's not what it was meant to do.

[toa kopaka4372]

I'm actually glad we got to see more characters outside the Mu, learn its origins, etc.Having both organic and biomechanical characters did, as fishers said, add variety. Also, the Bara Magnans were different enough from humans to be their own species, so it's all good. If there is anything I felt that defamed the MU characters, it was that whole AI-glitch thing, which I still find very annoying.It made the MU characters seem like nothing more than robots who happened to gain emotions, despite LEGO stressing for years how lifelike these guys are. I though that whole plot revelation was mostly pointless, and it resulted in people, when talking about MU beings, to discuss them as if they were no different from software or computers or whatever.. but they are, because they are actual living beings with free will and powerful emotions. That's what differentiated characters like the Toa from Vahki, who were real robots, and the story always stressed that difference. I just found out from the "Afterlife" topic that the AI that's in the MU characters is different from anything here on Earth, so it's something we can't imagine. That makes the whole thing a bit better, knowing it's not AI the way it's traditionally understood on Earth, but it does still irk me.That's enough rambling for now.

[Loading...]

@toa kopaka4372The feeling you had with the unintentional AI glitch was basicly how I felt when Greg started referencing the fact that the MU matoran were so robotic. It removed the feeling that they were living things for me.

[bonesiii]

The feeling you had with the unintentional AI glitch was basicly how I felt when Greg started referencing the fact that the MU matoran were so robotic. It removed the feeling that they were living things for me.

They were always living things. You're probably thinking of Greg poetically calling them nanotech, which refers to the role they played for Mata Nui, not to their physical design. They were always biomechanical living beings.

[Loading...]

They were always living things. You're probably thinking of Greg poetically calling them nanotech, which refers to the role they played for Mata Nui, not to their physical design. They were always biomechanical living beings.

Actually I never heard the nanotech comment from Greg. Though I agree it is poetic, and I like term.I was referencing something more along the lines of when Gelu comments on Orde's eyes being mechanical receptors in The Yesterday Quest. Edited September 8, 2012 by Loading...

[bonesiii]

That sort of thing had been true canonically from the start -- if anything, most people thought they were totally robotic. That had nothing to do with the AI glitch.

[Loading...]

That sort of thing had been true canonically from the start -- if anything, most people thought they were totally robotic. That had nothing to do with the AI glitch.

Yes, however their "robot-ness" wasn't as noted or noticeable in the past. For most of Bionicle's history everything was biomechanical, robotic, or plant life with only the few exceptions of organic wildlife. Even though they were always robotic, there was nothing to compare them against and it felt like they were very "human" in areas beyond simply their emotions.Once there were naturally organic sentient species added to the canon, that were undeniably "human", the past biomechanical characters lost part of their humanity.Either way, I must admit that I know I'm biased by nostalgia-goggles twords parts of Bionicle so I apologise for any nonsensical arguments based completely on one sided opinions.

[Nuparu1995]

I definitely did prefer the largely mechanical biomechanical beings from the MU, but the mostly organic SM beings really did add some depth to the story.

[25K Now!]

I rather liked the introduction of organic species, for it showed that there was a wider world out there other than your usual bio-mechanical MU species. I was also rather unfazed by the radical difference, but then again, the Glatorian and Agori looked robotic, like MU inhabitants, which, in the eyes of my younger self, meant they were exactly the same.

[Iku]

Actually, organic species have been there from the beginning of the series. There were a number of organic species residing on the island of Mata Nui, such as some unidentified birds and the trees there. The water was also essentially "organic" because it wasn't made of protodermis.In my opinion, the introduction of organic species was inevitable, yet I was pleasantly surprised at the revelation. It was just another dimension of possibility! I mean, if there were so many different species of biomechanical creatures, how many more were there out there? I absolutely love the variety.

That sort of thing had been true canonically from the start -- if anything, most people thought they were totally robotic. That had nothing to do with the AI glitch.

Yes, however their "robot-ness" wasn't as noted or noticeable in the past. For most of Bionicle's history everything was biomechanical, robotic, or plant life with only the few exceptions of organic wildlife. Even though they were always robotic, there was nothing to compare them against and it felt like they were very "human" in areas beyond simply their emotions.Once there were naturally organic sentient species added to the canon, that were undeniably "human", the past biomechanical characters lost part of their humanity.Either way, I must admit that I know I'm biased by nostalgia-goggles twords parts of Bionicle so I apologise for any nonsensical arguments based completely on one sided opinions.

Actually, you can interpret that as a beautiful irony - the fact that they mostly robot, yet are so human is a testament to their emotional capabilities. Regarding the fact that the Bara Magnans were mostly organic - I think they are anything but human (physically). The BIONICLE universe has already so well established the supposedly alien characters to be so relatable, it seems strange that the Glatorian, Agori, Skrall, and Great Beings would be human. I am actually very amazed at the fact that I even think that, what with the many characters of mainstream media being human/resembling humans, I should be feeling alienated from these non-human characters. Yet their personalities and heroic deeds truly help you feel they are "normal."Passionate fandom.

[bonesiii]

For most of Bionicle's history everything was biomechanical, robotic, or plant life with only the few exceptions of organic wildlife. Even though they were always robotic, there was nothing to compare them against and it felt like they were very "human" in areas beyond simply their emotions.Once there were naturally organic sentient species added to the canon, that were undeniably "human", the past biomechanical characters lost part of their humanity.

I just don't accept the premise that adding imagination into a story somehow detracts from the previous, and different, imagination. I hear of this sort of thinking all the time and as a writer it does concern me in the sense of how to avoid readers having such a reaction. But how else can it be avoided other than either adding nothing at all or only adding more of the same, which produces the other type of negative reaction -- boredom?This applies to countless other aspects of a worldbuilding, variety-filled story besides just organic/robot. I do think there is some limit where a story can "jump the shark" and start doing something totally foreign to what made it enjoyable. But I can't help but notice that this complaint isn't even consistent with what was established in-story. We had sapient beings to animal sentience to plants, and we had full robots, we had biomechanical, we had full organic.You can't really make the argument that we didn't have all these things. You can only say, "we didn't have it, except, except, except, except". All those "excepts" demonstrate that it's within the realm of possibility. The only reason I can see to limit it would be to argue against the use of imagination within the bounds already established. And that is done by taking ingredients that are established, and connecting them in different ways.It's true that at the start, those ingredients did not happen to be combined as "organic sapient", but so what? How does adding such a combination change anything about the combinations that were there? It doesn't.Put simply, they didn't lose anything at all. They were never supposed to be human. They share traits with humans, which hasn't been retconned or anything. And they always had mechanical/robotic components. And you never knew canonically if they were always fully sapient or not. So again, nothing was lost. Rather, the story revealed that in the past, what they have now was gained. :)In other words, to some extent, the best way for a reader to avoid this reaction is to change the attitude you approach such fiction with, so that you do not choose to alter your perception of one thing just because something different comes along. That begins as a choice of attitude in you, and can only really end as a different choice. It does not begin, really, with anything an author does. Not that this means authors can't make mistakes or "jump the shark" or the like, but that the reader's chosen attitude plays a major role too. Edited September 9, 2012 by bonesiii

[Loading...]

Actually, organic species have been there from the beginning of the series. There were a number of organic species residing on the island of Mata Nui, such as some unidentified birds and the trees there. The water was also essentially "organic" because it wasn't made of protodermis.

Yes they have been there, but it has only been a few animals, the plant life (the plants of Mata-Nui could possibly be made of protodermis considering the island was created from an energised protodermis spill), and two sentient plant villians (who may have been made of organic protodermis as well, considering they were made by Teridax), not an entire planet of organic beings.

It was just another dimension of possibility! I mean, if there were so many different species of biomechanical creatures, how many more were there out there?

I think that the only new possibilities are more organic beings existing somewhere else in the universe. This is part of why I didn't like the change to organic beings as the natural inhabitants of the world. It means that biomechanical creatures are the very small minority, and there may be no others in the universe.

Regarding the fact that the Bara Magnans were mostly organic - I think they are anything but human (physically). The BIONICLE universe has already so well established the supposedly alien characters to be so relatable, it seems strange that the Glatorian, Agori, Skrall, and Great Beings would be human. I am actually very amazed at the fact that I even think that, what with the many characters of mainstream media being human/resembling humans, I should be feeling alienated from these non-human characters. Yet their personalities and heroic deeds truly help you feel they are "normal."

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant, or I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. I don't think that the Spherus Magna species are actual humans in any way, but I do think that they are more human-like compared to past characters due to being naturally organic and non robotic.

I just don't accept the premise that adding imagination into a story somehow detracts from the previous, and different, imagination. I hear of this sort of thinking all the time and as a writer it does concern me in the sense of how to avoid readers having such a reaction. But how else can it be avoided other than either adding nothing at all or only adding more of the same, which produces the other type of negative reaction -- boredom?

I don't accept that premise either, imagination is good. But there is a difference between adding more imagination, and moving against an original idea that has been created and sustained for almost a decade. Bionicle's story has moved through many different characters and locations, thusly adding imagination and keeping the story from becoming boring. However it has always remained a story about biomechanical beings. This idea about a world made up of "living machines" with emotions and free wills is a big part of what makes Bionicle unique. The change to organic characters disrupted that. Adding imagination doesn't detract from past imagination, but I think that breaking from a consistent theme that made a storyline unique does detract from the past.

This applies to countless other aspects of a worldbuilding, variety-filled story besides just organic/robot. I do think there is some limit where a story can "jump the shark" and start doing something totally foreign to what made it enjoyable. But I can't help but notice that this complaint isn't even consistent with what was established in-story. We had sapient beings to animal sentience to plants, and we had full robots, we had biomechanical, we had full organic.You can't really make the argument that we didn't have all these things. You can only say, "we didn't have it, except, except, except, except".

If I said that we never had organic creatures of any kind, then yes, I would have to say "except, except, except." But I'm trying not to say that. (Emphasis on trying)Like my other comment mentioned, we certainly have had organic creatures. But we haven't had main characters, entire species, or a whole planet made up of naturally organic creatures.

[bonesiii]

Yes they have been there, but it has only been a few animals, the plant life (the plants of Mata-Nui could possibly be made of protodermis considering the island was created from an energised protodermis spill), and two sentient plant villians (who may have been made of organic protodermis as well, considering they were made by Teridax), not an entire planet of organic beings.

But don't you see that your argument is not logical? It boils down to arbitrarily picking a date, listing the exceptions to the rule you started with that did happen before that date, and saying only those exceptions are okay, then saying anything after that date is not. We could follow the same logic and simply pick the date of 2011, and say that the Bara Magna organics you're objecting to are thus okay too.Put another way, you're basically saying that only the exact combinations of ingredients we've already seen are okay, even though at the times those exceptions were introduced they were new combinations too. It simply doesn't make sense.Ultimately, the organics you're talking about are supposed to be different. They're aliens, as it were. You may dislike this, but there's really no objective logical argument against it, because Iku's point stands. There were fully organic creatures as clues towards this from the start. Even in the very first comic. Your tastes apparently caused you not to follow that clue along its natural course, but others did. It makes perfect sense given everything else in the story. Robots in a world with some organics --> the robots were made by fully sapient organics. Nothing in the story itself goes against this.Rather, you, as one fan with your own tastes, among a vast fanbase with countless others with different tastes, appear to have formed a preference rule yourself, which you may have confused with something the canon intended to portray. And that turned out not to be accurate. It happens. This is why I always advise against putting proverbial stock in our own theories and guesses as we follow a story, because statistically we are bound to guess incorrectly most of the time. :)Does this help? I'm guessing a bit too as far as what might have led to your dislike of this move, so if I'm on the wrong track, that's okay. Just a possible explanation to consider; only you can know for sure if this is the case. ^_^And if I'm on the right track there, then my suggestion would be to adopt an attitude of "it's cool to be proven wrong!" kinda like the Mythbusters. That helps improve enjoyment of it, which being entertainment is the point, etc.

Like my other comment mentioned, we certainly have had organic creatures. But we haven't had main characters, entire species, or a whole planet made up of naturally organic creatures.

The point is, we should not ever have assumed that those options were off the table. They were never presented as rules to be avoided (like time travel... which then kinda happened with Bitil but anywho...). And they're perfectly consistent with the world as originally established. The phrase "taken to its logical conclusion" should help here. :)And again, we could apply the same thinking to make almost ANYTHING not be okay. Take the first page of the first comic. "But we haven't had these 'Tohunga' things." Take the first comic. "But we haven't had visions of Kaita before." Take the first year. "But we haven't had buglike robots that clean islands before." Etc. They are true statements, but they do not logically argue against doing the things we haven't had before. If anything, they argue for it, lest it become too repetitive. :)I wanna be clear, though, that there is a certain "something" that defines what will tend to produce the most enjoyment in fans who got into something in the start, versus others that won't. So I'm not saying this move is okay just because it's new. But the argument "because it hasn't been done before" should not be used as it's unreliable and if applied consistently would forbid a story from being done at all, period, or at least would prevent it from being a series. :)And to the question of whether this feels "in" the "something", I say yes, as it is perfectly natural from the clues that were in the first. I think it's far more "in" than many other things Bionicle did later. (Some of which I really love anyways, just due to my tastes.) It's worth noting that things along these lines were very popular theories and the like back in 2001, including "made by ancient humans, set in distant future" which was probably the most popular and even often taken as fact erroneously.Also, there no known way as far as I'm aware to ensure that no fan, with their unique tastes, could ever have a "this doesn't fit the old to me" reaction to something. The more I've followed reactions to stories and tried things out myself, the more I've concluded that it's inevitable that at least some will have such a reaction, so the ability to form that reaction alone cannot be the proof that it wasn't the right choice.I have a lot of theories as to what should be used, but still experimenting myself, so I'd rather not try to explain it, yanno? (But it boils down to, "whatever the author enjoys most".)

It means... and there may be no others in the universe.

There may be no others, but that seems highly unlikely to me. Presuming the possibility of a return, or at least that LEGO would want the world to be consistent, surely they would want species that in some way could resemble sets to exist out there on other planets as an option.But the point is, you know as much now about the rest of the universe as you did then, which is nothing. We can't take what exists now as the rule for the way it is on all/most of the other planets. Nor could you take how it was in 2001-2008 as the rule for how it was elsewhere. It sounds like you assumed you could -- that is probably what set you up for a bad reaction, and was what you would have been better off avoiding.

But there is a difference between adding more imagination, and moving against an original idea that has been created and sustained for almost a decade. Bionicle's story has moved through many different characters and locations, thusly adding imagination and keeping the story from becoming boring. However it has always remained a story about biomechanical beings.

But that's not accurate, as you agreed. I think this is a statement of the personal rule you formed. Nowhere did LEGO ever put forth such an "original idea." Rather, the original idea was really to do something original, and that was a rule they kept doing. Every year, every time they did something else original, some people complained as you did, alleging that this new thing was breaking a past rule, but that was never true. It's the same here.Let's also note that the Agori/Glatorian are not purely organic. The origin of that state is different than with the MU beings, but when the story focused on them, they were biomechanical as well. In fact they're closer to the normal meaning of the word "bionic" which is found in Bionicle's title. Furthermore, the title is usually defined as "biological chronicle" anyways, which to me always strongly implied that eventually we would meet fully organic beings of some kind or another. I was excited, personally, to find out that longstanding theory of mine was right. Which may help to illustrate the role that taste -- and just things you happen to think of, personally versus what others did or didn't -- can play in this.

The change to organic characters disrupted that.

Well this is another part of my fundamental disagreement with this less enjoyable approach to fiction; the idea that anything added later can "disrupt" what was done before. It sort of treats "whatever is in the past" as "the whole pie"; as 100% of what's possible in Bionicle. I always take a different approach to fiction. I always assume that "whatever is in the past" is NOT 100% of what's possible, and that different things, variations on themes, are possible.If you will, your approach takes (arbitrarily) the first 8 years as "100%" and then, when a ninth year was added in which something major changed, you see a ratio change to "what defines Bionicle."But I take the 100% as always being a mystery, and treat all of known story as closer to 5% of what's possible. I'm curious to know what's in the 95%, or more, that has yet to be explored.I think that's a far more fun way to do it, yes? Edited September 9, 2012 by bonesiii

[Toa of Nerds]

Personally, I found it a little hard to believe that the Agori/Glatorian were mostly biological given their artwork and set representation. Still, from a story perspective it did not bother me that much. It helped to set the Agori/Glatorian apart from the inhabitants of the MU.-don't touch my pocket protector

[Loading...]

@BonesiiiWell, I have to admit that you're right. I'm making a bad argument, and you pointed it it out to me greatly, without making me feel like a complete imbecile. I still don't feel like the choice was as good as some others that could have been made, but that's only my personal opinion.I hope that opinion will change and the idea of naturally organic characters will grow on me, and you actually have me partially convinced on how to and why, so thanks.

[bonesiii]

Glad I could help. ^_^Another thing that may help is to consider doing fanfics that explore the alternative ideas you have, as I like to do. I find that it can kinda help enjoy the way it was. For example, I always felt that 2001 felt way too short, unsatisfying compared to the potential I had in mind when it started. That spurred me to spend 1/3 of the time of my fanfic series in 2001 (as it is now looking anyways) plot and really try to fill it out, and now I can look to the smaller canon one and feel more satisfied with it being the alternative to how I did it. Hard to explain I guess, but it works for me. Really, I enjoy changing things even that I liked the canon way of, as alternatives are always possible.

Edited September 9, 2012 by bonesiii