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Protodermis


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#1 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Feb 12 2013 - 06:46 PM

1) Energised ProtormisThe kind of protodermis all other protodermis is derived from.Theory:Energised protodermis is, as the name suggests Pure Protodermis which contains a super poderfull type of energy. When the EP comes in contact with a substance most of its energy goes in the Changing(Mutation/Destruction) of the substance depending on the exact structure of it(destiny). The rest of the energy is then used for the creation of more Pure protodermis. And so Energised protodermis loses it's powers after use, begause off the loss of the Mutagenic Energy.Evidence: The Nuva/Takanuva were able to crawl out of the EP without further changes because the EP lost it's energy and turned into normal Protodermis, otherwise they would've kept changing till they were fully dry. (2 Pure ProtodermisTheory: It's the most pure essence in the world, far purer than water, the by product of the Mutating via EM and the material suited the best for storing that Energy.Evidence: The other other fluids we saw containing the, what I call Energised Protodermis Energy(EPE), weren't as perfect as this one. The full energised protodermis is linked to destiny comparing to Mutagen which mutates at random. Also they can contain power as seen in Toa, Kanohi and Kanoka, crafting the protodermis special causes the power to be channeled and focussed towards one goal.3) Energised Protodermis power.Theory: The power source of the Great Spirit Bot, perfectly stable. When in high concentrations in contact with a fluid turns Mutagenic. The Great Beigns derived the power of the Great Spirit bot from EP trapping the energy used normally for Mutation and keeping the by produced Protodermis as Builing Material.Evidence:  When Karda Nui "leaked" energy the Black Water gained many properties of EP but not fully the same Black water is less pure than protodermis. It is know Energised Protodermis provided a stable power source, what if it is a reference to the Power being derived from Protodermis.3) Mutagen(Mahri Nui)Theory: Quite the same as EP,  only less pure and by so mutations aren't anymore linked to destiny.Evidence: The leakage of Karda Nui let power(EPE) radiating into the Black Water turning it Mutagenic.4) Mutagen(Karda Nui)Theory: Same mutagen as Karda Nui only due more power radiating and even less purity(Organic Mess) Causes life to start excisting out of nothing. Evidence: Same as Mahri Nui, and on which other way would so much plant life form out of nothing.


Edited by Dual Matrix, Feb 17 2013 - 02:25 PM.

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#2 Offline -Jaller-

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Posted Feb 12 2013 - 07:56 PM

That is actually a good theroy when you think about it. And you have your proof to back it up Very smart :)
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#3 Offline Krane

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Posted Feb 13 2013 - 08:40 AM

I agree. It makes much sense.


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#4 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Feb 13 2013 - 09:48 AM

Looks solid enough. I can't find any flaws here, since it doesn't seem to contradict any existing facts whatsoever. Did you hear the Key to Nongy approaching as well?


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#5 Offline Nicotheory

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Posted Feb 13 2013 - 03:21 PM

That makes a lot of sense. Nice find!


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#6 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Feb 13 2013 - 05:02 PM

1) Energised ProtormisThe kind of protodermis all other protodermis is derived from.Theory:Energised protodermis is, as the name suggests Pure Protodermis which contains a super poderfull type of energy. When the EP comes in contact with a substance most of its energy goes in the Changing(Mutation/Destruction) of the substance depending on the exact structure of it(destiny). The rest of the energy is then used for the creation of more Pure protodermis. And so Energised protodermis loses it's powers after use, begause off the loss of the Mutagenic Energy.Proof: The Nuva/Takanuva were able to crawl out of the EP without further changes because the EP lost it's energy and turned into normal Protodermis, otherwise they would've kept changing till they were fully dry.

Actually, I would argue that it's implied that Energized Protodermis can somehow achieve a sort of "perpetual motion" effect in its mutations. This is evidenced by the fact that the Great Beings used Energized Protodermis as the primary ingredient in Mata Nui's power core, which somehow auto-regulated the system - the most likely theory is that it somehow mutates the usual power core waste, which normally builds up and explodes, into re-usable fuel. In my opinion, it's more likely that EP has some way to detect its target's destiny (it is sentient, after all), and is only capable of transforming them once. Your theory is equally valid here, though, as there's equal evidence for both yours and mine.

(2 Pure ProtodermisTheory: It's the most pure essence in the world, far purer than water, the by product of the Mutating via EM and the material suited the best for storing that Energy.Proof: The other other fluids we saw containing the, what I call Energised Protodermis Energy(EPE), weren't as perfect as this one. The full energised protodermis is linked to destiny comparing to Mutagen which mutates at random. Also they can contain power as seen in Toa, Kanohi and Kanoka, crafting the protodermis special causes the power to be channeled and focussed towards one goal.

Actually, the type of Protodermis which is used in Kanoka is artificially purified, not initially "pure." Nor is it produced by Energized Protodermis in any way; the Matoran of Metru Nui manufactured Purified Protodermis but were unable to synthesize EP.

3) Energised Protodermis power.Theory: The power source of the Great Spirit Bot, perfectly stable. When in high concentrations in contact with a fluid turns Mutagenic. The Great Beigns derived the power of the Great Spirit bot from EP trapping the energy used normally for Mutation and keeping the by produced Protodermis as Builing Material.Proof:  When Karda Nui "leaked" energy the Black Water gained many properties of EP but not fully the same Black water is less pure than protodermis. It is know Energised Protodermis provided a stable power source, what if it is a reference to the Power being derived from Protodermis.

This part really doesn't make much sense to me. Remember that Mata Nui was able to use a non-EP-regulated power core in his prototype body, albeit very briefly. I've always assumed that the power generator builds up some kind of reactive waste, which eventually results in an interior explosion - the idea being that the Energized Protodermis constantly transforms the waste into re-usable fuel.

3) Mutagen(Mahri Nui)Theory: Quite the same as EP,  only less pure and by so mutations aren't anymore linked to destiny.Proof: The leakage of Karda Nui let power(EPE) radiating into the Black Water turning it Mutagenic.

I've always assumed that the Pit Mutagen was a result of Karda Nui's radiation (or that of a secondary generator) leaking out through the gap in the seafloor. It's possible that Energized Protodermis was mixed in with the salt water as well - by far the most likely theory.

4) Mutagen(Karda Nui)Theory: Same mutagen as Karda Nui only due more power radiating and even less purity(Organic Mess) Causes life to start excisting out of nothing. Proof: Same as Mahri Nui, and on which other way would so much plant life form out of nothing.

Actually, the mutagen in Karda Nui was just Pit Mutagen, carried down through the hole in Mata Nui's chest via the Great Waterfall. There is a lot here that I agree with, though - the Pit Mutagen is obviously a result of some sort of power or EP leakage mixing with the Black Water, and Purified Protodermis is almost definitely the type of Protodermis used for Kanohi and Kanoka.

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#7 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Feb 13 2013 - 05:20 PM

Lets bring your arguments down, I brought backup :)
Actually, the type of Protodermis which is used in Kanoka is artificially purified, not initially "pure." Nor is it produced by Energized Protodermis in any way; the Matoran of Metru Nui manufactured Purified Protodermis but were unable to synthesize EP.
Yes it was, all Protodermis know to exist was derived from EP, this is confirmed. Pure protodermis is a type of protodermis that was once made messy and was artificially cleaned up again. In my theory means the purer the more focussed the power which it can contain is: the purer the Kanoka the more Powerfull. Why weren't the Matoran able to create EP, because they had no acces to a big enough amouth of what I call Energised Protodermis Power(EPE), so I assume if you have acces to Pure Protodermis and EPE you can recreate the exact EP that was used to form it.
This part really doesn't make much sense to me. Remember that Mata Nui was able to use a non-EP-regulated power core in his prototype body, albeit very briefly. I've always assumed that the power generator builds up some kind of reactive waste, which eventually results in an interior explosion - the idea being that the Energized Protodermis constantly transforms the waste into re-usable fuel.
He wasn't, remember the energy source he used was actually the power source intended for the second robot, which means it would also exist out of EPE like the one in the Spirit Bot did.
Actually, the mutagen in Karda Nui was just Pit Mutagen, carried down through the hole in Mata Nui's chest via the Great Waterfall. There is a lot here that I agree with, though - the Pit Mutagen is obviously a result of some sort of power or EP leakage mixing with the Black Water, and Purified Protodermis is almost definitely the type of Protodermis used for Kanohi and Kanoka.
Yes and which energy was housed again in Karda Nui? Yes the energy from the power source, which would in my theory be EPE (NOT to confuse with EP). Water and protodermis are almost the same, only the latter being purer and so more capable to store EPE in a better way. What I state here is that the Mutagen is almost the same as EP(Not EPE) only a bit less pure and by so mutations occur at random.
Actually, the mutagen in Karda Nui was just Pit Mutagen, carried down through the hole in Mata Nui's chest via the Great Waterfall.
I sead so didn't I, I only assumed it to be stronger due actually being inside of Karda Nui.Nice try to poke holes in my theory, I only think you messed EP up with my EPE

Edited by Dual Matrix, Feb 13 2013 - 05:26 PM.

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#8 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Feb 13 2013 - 09:12 PM

Yes it was, all Protodermis know to exist was derived from EP, this is confirmed. Pure protodermis is a type of protodermis that was once made messy and was artificially cleaned up again. In my theory means the purer the more focussed the power which it can contain is: the purer the Kanoka the more Powerfull. Why weren't the Matoran able to create EP, because they had no acces to a big enough amouth of what I call Energised Protodermis Power(EPE), so I assume if you have acces to Pure Protodermis and EPE you can recreate the exact EP that was used to form it.
...Okay? I didn't deny that Protodermis is artificial and initially synthesized using Energized Protodermis, but I did oppose the idea that Energized Protodermis was "purer" Purified Protodermis. It seems to me to be a different process, with EP able to "purify" other substances and grant them Protodermic powers but without undergoing such a process itself.
Yes and which energy was housed again in Karda Nui? Yes the energy from the power source, which would in my theory be EPE (NOT to confuse with EP). Water and protodermis are almost the same, only the latter being purer and so more capable to store EPE in a better way. What I state here is that the Mutagen is almost the same as EP(Not EPE) only a bit less pure and by so mutations occur at random.
I sead so didn't I, I only assumed it to be stronger due actually being inside of Karda Nui.Nice try to poke holes in my theory, I only think you messed EP up with my EPE
Hold on, I think I may have mixed up a bit of the theory here. Let me recap real quick to be sure I've got it right.According to your theory, Energized Protodermis can be divided into two components: Purified Protodermis and a sort of energy (I'll follow your lead in calling this "Energized Protodermis Energy" or EPE). The Purified Protodermis was used by the Great Beings to make all subsequent forms of Protodermis (possibly because it becomes into some sort of programmable nanomachine/a shell which can be made into a nanomachine a la bonesii's theory), and the energy was used in the Great Spirit Robot's power core (Karda Nui). The EPE, however, is highly reactive with any substances (Protodermic or not) and essentially gives them Energized Protodermis-like properties once it mixes with their molecules.Do I have it all right so far?

Edited by Meta-Mind, Feb 13 2013 - 09:16 PM.

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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 02:00 PM

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Disclaimer: The Gold Key to Nongu Award does not certify theory accuracy. The sponsor of the Gold Key to Nongu Award does not neccessarily endorse and/or oppose said theory. The sponsor of the Gold Key to Nongu Award remains ignorant of the exact meaning of the word "Nongu." The originator of the term "Nongu" may or may not be insane. Not available in some domes, void where prohibited.

 

This makes a lot of sense, and you explained it well. One formal nitpick: I would avoid using the word "proof", in favor of "evidence", for reasons explained in the S&T One-Stop pinned topic, under the Theory Definition section.

 

 

Proof: The Nuva/Takanuva were able to crawl out of the EP without further changes because the EP lost it's energy and turned into normal Protodermis, otherwise they would've kept changing till they were fully dry.

IMO the EP around them likely was still energized, but the mutation process may have a residual effect that could imitate the energy around it, making them still temporarily have a "charge" even though that energy has just been used. Actually, the temporary part is not even necessary per se. Under this explanation, prior to entering the EP pool, they would have zero charge, and the pool would have, just for sake of convenience, let's say "100" charge (as in percent as defined at that moment).

 

As soon as they enter, there's a charge differential and some of the charge from around them has to enter them, similar to osmosis. This does the whole check destiny, then destroy or mutate thing. Momentarily they and the whole pool would even out to around (rounding by tens for convenience) 90% charge, because 10% (or much less, likely) of the charge is "destroyed" in the mutation charge. After that moment, they go back to zero charge and the pool around them is 90.

 

Then (this is the key to what I'm theorizing here), the aftereffect of the mutation would allow still more charge to enter but not do anything to them. Now the whole charge in them and the pool would both be around 80%.

 

They then leave, and the pool is stuck at 80%. Maybe it would eventually go back up if other nondestined things fell in, to be destroyed (converted to energy), so recharging the pool. Or not. Point is, the pool would not necessarily go down to 0% or even close to it.

 

The Toa may remain at 80% (neutralized) charge, making them permanently immune to EP in the future, or this could slowly go down by the same osmosis effect since they are now in a 0% environment, until they and the environment are both roughly 0% (a little over it).

 

Whatthink?

 

 

Actually, the type of Protodermis which is used in Kanoka is artificially purified, not initially "pure." Nor is it produced by Energized Protodermis in any way; the Matoran of Metru Nui manufactured Purified Protodermis but were unable to synthesize EP.

First sentence here is correct; was going to point that out too.

 

As for the second, the Matoran were not as highly scientific as the Great Beings by any stretch. Most of their accomplishments were because the powerful nature of protodermis itself could already do many things that made it much easier. If producing such a thing via EP requires technical know-how quite a ways beyond them and isn't aided by protodermis itself (as far as they've discovered), then maybe it could be produced that way?

 

 

Remember that Mata Nui was able to use a non-EP-regulated power core in his prototype body, albeit very briefly. I've always assumed that the power generator builds up some kind of reactive waste, which eventually results in an interior explosion - the idea being that the Energized Protodermis constantly transforms the waste into re-usable fuel.

Good point about the nonregulated power source (as far as I recall, a bit fuzzy on that part). Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean, by itself, that the theory doesn't work. This could simply describe part of the process of regulating it.

 

Maybe something fusing both your theories and my above one with the recharging thing could be the case? We have to keep in mind that EP will destroy matter too. It seems logical to me that it would make a highly efficient power source if you 1) feed nondestined matter (solar wind, nebulae, etc.?) and/or energy (sunlight?) into it, charging it up, 2) pull that charge out somehow, and 3) some other reaction that's highly technical may be needed to pull that charge out. That other reaction could itself function as an unstable power source, and combining the two systems would stabilize them both. Probably mainly due to the apparently easy recharging nature of EP.

 

 

I didn't deny that Protodermis is artificial and initially synthesized using Energized Protodermis, but I did oppose the idea that Energized Protodermis was "purer" Purified Protodermis.

I thought what he meant was that EP's physical material was pure protodermis, and that it seems "purer" due to the energy added to it.

 

 

BTW, "EPE" acronym is already used for the EP Entity. Maybe use EPC? Energized Protodermis Charge?


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 17 2013 - 02:04 PM.

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#10 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 04:22 PM

According to your theory, Energized Protodermis can be divided into two components: Purified Protodermis and a sort of energy (I'll follow your lead in calling this "Energized Protodermis Energy" or EPE). The Purified Protodermis was used by the Great Beings to make all subsequent forms of Protodermis (possibly because it becomes into some sort of programmable nanomachine/a shell which can be made into a nanomachine a la bonesii's theory), and the energy was used in the Great Spirit Robot's power core (Karda Nui). The EPE, however, is highly reactive with any substances (Protodermic or not) and essentially gives them Energized Protodermis-like properties once it mixes with their molecules.
Exactly I'd only say it mixes only with fluids of a watery kind.
IMO the EP around them likely was still energized, but the mutation process may have a residual effect that could imitate the energy around it, making them still temporarily have a "charge" even though that energy has just been used. Actually, the temporary part is not even necessary per se. Under this explanation, prior to entering the EP pool, they would have zero charge, and the pool would have, just for sake of convenience, let's say "100" charge (as in percent as defined at that moment). As soon as they enter, there's a charge differential and some of the charge from around them has to enter them, similar to osmosis. This does the whole check destiny, then destroy or mutate thing. Momentarily they and the whole pool would even out to around (rounding by tens for convenience) 90% charge, because 10% (or much less, likely) of the charge is "destroyed" in the mutation charge. After that moment, they go back to zero charge and the pool around them is 90. Then (this is the key to what I'm theorizing here), the aftereffect of the mutation would allow still more charge to enter but not do anything to them. Now the whole charge in them and the pool would both be around 80%. They then leave, and the pool is stuck at 80%. Maybe it would eventually go back up if other nondestined things fell in, to be destroyed (converted to energy), so recharging the pool. Or not. Point is, the pool would not necessarily go down to 0% or even close to it. The Toa may remain at 80% (neutralized) charge, making them permanently immune to EP in the future, or this could slowly go down by the same osmosis effect since they are now in a 0% environment, until they and the environment are both roughly 0% (a little over it). Whatthink?
Pretty smart theory here, only the permanent thing couldn't work due to it is confirmed a being can change multiple times. But that fading away theory is impossible to poke holes in. 
Maybe something fusing both your theories and my above one with the recharging thing could be the case? We have to keep in mind that EP will destroy matter too. It seems logical to me that it would make a highly efficient power source if you 1) feed nondestined matter (solar wind, nebulae, etc.?) and/or energy (sunlight?) into it, charging it up, 2) pull that charge out somehow, and 3) some other reaction that's highly technical may be needed to pull that charge out. That other reaction could itself function as an unstable power source, and combining the two systems would stabilize them both. Probably mainly due to the apparently easy recharging nature of EP.
 Good, this hower couldn't work since it'd be quite impossible to get the destiny thing right, I mean, you wouldn't want something randomely to form and mess up your generator. What could hower work is if they used some kind fluid as container for the EPC to disable the destiny function. As nessecairy mass, it would be easier to just break small chunks of the planet you visit and use that as fuel. That could also work for Matoran and such instead of eating like us they convert mass to energy in their core(heartlight) to provide energy. This would also disable the need of oxigen to burn, so no blood, but possibly oxigen was used as destroy mass itself. This could also mean the aging of Matoran and the need of their regulation for the Bot, having the energy sources slowly destroying the being who carries it. Thanks for that key by the way, I'm very proud.I changed proof to evidence too.

Edited by Dual Matrix, Feb 17 2013 - 04:23 PM.

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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 07:32 PM

Good, this hower couldn't work since it'd be quite impossible to get the destiny thing right, I mean, you wouldn't want something randomely to form and mess up your generator.

An excellent point lol. Although, wasn't it stated that Mata Nui could set destinies? If an engine system automatically set the "fuel intake" substances/energies as nondestined along those lines it should prevent an issue.

 

 

What could hower work is if they used some kind fluid as container for the EPC to disable the destiny function.

Yeah, that could work.

 

 As nessecairy mass, it would be easier to just break small chunks of the planet you visit and use that as fuel.

I thought of that, but I would hope that the GBs would not allow it for inhabited planets, limiting it to, say, moons of obscure gas giants or asteroids. This is because continued use of your own world's mass (or someone else's) to convert to energy gradually reduces the planet's total mass and eventually it could become a problem for surviveability. But anywho, either way, the physics of the fueling process should work, yeah. I just focus on "space gas" because it's the least likely to be needed for life to survive. And, I would think, least likely to have any kind of destiny. :shrugs:


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#12 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 03:35 PM

Good, this hower couldn't work since it'd be quite impossible to get the destiny thing right, I mean, you wouldn't want something randomely to form and mess up your generator.

An excellent point lol. Although, wasn't it stated that Mata Nui could set destinies? If an engine system automatically set the "fuel intake" substances/energies as nondestined along those lines it should prevent an issue. 
Probably, but I think, or at least theorise that only counts for GB/Mata Nui creations, the destiny of a normal stone of a planet couldn't changed by him, it would be above his might to do so. Otherwise he could say like "Hah you little planet, your destiny is to explode in like 10 minutes or so" or go even beyond and say "The Destiny of the Universe is to be void of evil right now!" so I guess big things, powerfull beings and outsider stuff won't let their destinies to be  

 As nessecairy mass, it would be easier to just break small chunks of the planet you visit and use that as fuel.

I thought of that, but I would hope that the GBs would not alloEw it for inhabited planets, limiting it to, say, moons of obscure gas giants or asteroids. This is because continued use of your own world's mass (or someone else's) to convert to energy gradually reduces the planet's total mass and eventually it could become a problem for surviveability. But anywho, either way, the physics of the fueling process should work, yeah. I just focus on "space gas" because it's the least likely to be needed for life to survive. And, I would think, least likely to have any kind of destiny. :shrugs:
Asteriods would be logical, I imagine there must've chrashed a lot againt that thing. I just don't like space gass :) Oh I found some evidence for our mass to energy theory, Makuta ejected the mask of life out of the Codrex, that hole to outside was already there so I imaginee it to be a fuell entrance.

Edited by Dual Matrix, Feb 18 2013 - 03:37 PM.

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#13 Offline Krane

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Posted Feb 19 2013 - 06:09 AM

Congratulations DM! You got the Key to Nongu!


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#14 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Feb 19 2013 - 01:06 PM

TEST

Congratulations DM! You got the Key to Nongu!

 

Yeah thanks, the essence of protodermis bothered me so much I decided to start a theory about it it took me a week to figure out, but that key is definately worth it!


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