Katuko

To quote the comic where they fight Vezon:

 

Jaller: "He went down, and took the Mask of Life with him. I'll have to go in after him."

 

Hahli: "Are you crazy? You won't last two seconds in that cauldron!"

In the book version of the fight, it goes like this:

 

"And took the Mask of Life with him", added Toa Jaller. "I'll have to go in there after it."

 

"Jaller, no!" said Hewkii. "You won't last more than ten seconds in that cauldron!"

 

"That's ten seconds longer than any of the rest of you would," the Toa leader answered. "With my natural resistance to heat and flame, maybe I can buy enough time to reach the mask and toss it to you. After that... take over as leader, Hewkii. Keep the team together and get the Mask of Life wherever it has to go."

It's clear that even with heat resistance, none of them thinks Jaller would last even a minute. The next few sentences has him reminisce about lava surfing in Ta-Koro, where he makes it even more clear that falling into lava is not safe and not at all pretty to watch.

 

We see the same in Mask of Light: Takua has trouble even touching the Mask of Light after he picks it out of the lava, and Tahu uses his mask to shield them from the wave that washes over them. None of them wants to touch it, even when on a surf board. The lava would certainly warp metal and burn muscles even if if didn't melt anyone instantly.

I'd actually really, really like for this guy to get a tool made out of metal if he is to get one. If it was made of wood he might as well not carry one at all, because he could just make one out of thin air when needed. He'd have to do it often as well, fighting a dragon, I mean. Plus, try hitting through metal armor with a tool made of wood, and try blocking fire with it. A wooden weapon wouldn't do much. He would have to rely on his actual plant control powers.

 

I find it likely that he'd be carrying either some generic sword/machete, or a projectile launcher of sorts. A Kanoka launcher would give him a decent pool of options, I think.

 

 

EDIT: And yes, let us please stick with basic tool names and nothing more.

Bleh, he became Green. Oh well, he can still be useful, so Mask of Healing it is.

It's on this blog entry.(Near the top!)

Thanks, but the link in the post is dead.

 

Somewhere in on-topic lands, I don't know, the speaking aspect of the Mask of Conjuring kind of falls under the "why not?" sort of reasoning. I think it would come from a fantasy trope - the wizard has to speak the spell to make it work, he can't just think it. Feels kind of odd in Bionicle where mentally activated powers are a dime a dozen, though.

Yeah, it's like... I don't want a wizard-type power where you speak spell descriptions. I've got that in a lot of other series, and this one has so far worked fine (10 years, plus plus!) with mental triggers only.

And discussion has also tried to go into the math of it, though offhand I can only recall one.

The point would be that the mask itself has an simple definition, and all you need to know is that it keeps the user away from harm if they are aware of the incoming attack. The exact details would start falling into technobabble, which is fine for fans to speculate in, but not something I like to see crammed into canon when it's hardly even important. Makes sense?

 

Yeah, and that's intentional, methinks. Or at least Kongu agrees with it. But it could still serve a purpose, and the point is its having that downside doesn't make it useless, as it has an upside too.

Remind me, what is the actual upside?

 

"why feel the need to leap outside the established frame of mental commands?"

 

Because the power was inspired by a spoken language being a programming language.

But as I mentioned, the nature of a programming language is somewhat different from the nature of a language used for communication. There are rules to them both, but if they were speaking and interpreting an actual programming language you'd have to expect that the words they speak would have a direct effect upon the recipient, as the code was run through their hardware.

 

I'm talking about your idea to have a mental "safety", if I'm reading it right, to make sure your thinking of the definition first isn't mistaken for (or accidentally used by you as) sending the power. This isn't there in other masks.

I disagree. You consciously decide which commands to send with a Komau, and you consciously decide how to make your illusions act. If you can make illusions walk and talk while still doing other things, I see no issue in having a more complicated set of instructions be possible - but require greater focus. My version of the Conjuring power does not have the silly weakness of stating powers out loud in detail, but it requires you to stay still and focused on your programming task. It's not something you'd be able to do in the middle of combat, or even on a whim when faced with an entirely unknown situation.

 

It could be, but it needn't be, and it's less clearly connected to the original inspiration to the mask.

The thing is, I don't think it's good to get so hung up on the original inspiration or idea that the resulting mask ends up as just another curiosity to throw on the pile.

 

Plus since now it takes a telepath/mind-reader to 'overhear' you defining it, I think it becomes somewhat OP that way. Emulation has a limit to what power it will make and opponents can guess the power based on this. Your way it seems like Conjuring wouldn't have that kind of limit so easily. And if you take away the mental backlash idea to make it even safer, then you really get OP.

It would still have the mental backlash if you try to exceed your own capabilities. I wish for the mask to be limited due to the time and concentration it takes to create a power. I see the whole "speak out loud" gimmick as unnecessary, programming language or not.

 

Appropriate if you make if a Legendary but that wasn't the point of that project at all; it was to make Great and/or Noble powers that would be likely to have Matoran versions on those Matoran's faces.

The shape could easily have another power, for that matter. Take care to kill your darlings sometimes, as the saying goes. You yourself have a giant list of powers you have thought of, so if one does not work all that well it's not that hard to come up with a different power that could fit the same shape. It could be limited Weather Control, for example, if we are to throw another Kraata power into a mask. The design on the front looks kind of like water droplets.

 

Yes, and those powers aren't nearly as flexible as Conjuring so there's no need for them to have this kind of extra limitation.

Manipulating someone to do your will is not flexible? Is it not mind-based and also dangerous, with inherent limits?

 

"I don't see why actual voices have to enter the picture"

 

They don't really have to (nor do they have to not...), but we've been over a reason why it helps -- this way enemies can know what power to expect better.

And again: Other weaknesses could work just as well from a story balancing perspective.

 

You've been mentioning things every mask has, but almost every mask also has some relatively easy way for enemies to tell that, by their shape or in the case of emulation by what powers are around to copy. (Similar for the Faxon, etc.)

On numerous occasions a character has been caught off-guard by masks, powers and abilities they did not recognize. Heck, some powers are designed to make you undetectable or to strike without the victim noticing. "Seeing the shape" has never been much of a balancing factor, and if you wish to speak of in-character reasoning "telling my enemy what I'm doing" is a very bad idea. The shape is there so that you know which mask you get when you pick it out of a pile of Kanohi, it is not there because people feel the need to inform everyone else of exactly what they can do.

 

"It should not need to be turned from digital to analog via the sound emitter, then re-recorded, translated and interpreted by the mask."

 

We don't know that their brains are digital. Their psychology seems to be akin to ours (which has some features similar to digital but it's more complicated than that). Anyways, this is an assertion, but on what basis do you get to "should"? I think the above reasons support that it should be spoken, if anything.

On the basis that if they are speaking a programming language and also using mentally triggered powers with precision, then they already have the language formalized in their brain. If they speak the same programming language that can be used to make new powers, then they are already using it in some form internally whenever they activate a power.

 

My notion here is the basis for a lot of system development: If the formalization is in place, then the machine should not need to go via a different channel. In this case, in order for the Toa to speak, their mind must already have arranged the words - made up on programming language - in the sentence before it is emitted as sound waves in whatever manner. if the mind can form these words into a sentence and speak them, it should also be perfectly capable of forming them into a sentence and feeding them into the mental power that is waiting to "record".

 

But the problem I saw was not just that it's "just as easy" but "even easier". My idea was more that if you said it wrong, the mask would just not work at all for a while. Greg's addition adds an extra level of danger (which makes a lot of sense). And BTW, implies strongly that it IS a mental command, but being spoken at the same time is a way to tell the mask with no room for doubt at all "this is my final answer". You seem to be missing that.

I am not missing it, I just find it very silly to read a power definition out loud to a device that you otherwise operate mentally. Deep concentration is enough of a downside in my book. It'd be like a trance/meditation, and if you are interrupted the power creation fails.

 

Another thing is that in our minds, we don't tend to limit how we think only to words. We sometimes just think in the concepts behind the words, without bothering to form complete and proper sentences in our minds. That especially makes sense for mask usage. But we are accustomed to forming sentences that we speak, so it would use familiar neural pathways and minimize the risk this way too.

In order for you to speak the sentence, you have formed the words in your brain and decided to vocalize it. "Decide to vocalize it" is identical and easily replaced with "decide to record it" in my book.

 

You can look at the speaking aloud as a way to force your mind to be reminded to speak properly/carefully. (And also to require a downside so enemies can hear it, which makes sense since enemies can use the power too; checks and balances.)

If someone wishes to speak aloud to focus, by all means, let them do so. But I find it silly to make it a required part of the power itself.

 

"I have already told you why I think it is not, but OK."

 

K, it's not debatable that Matoran as a spoken language and programming language is part of Bionicle as produced by LEGO.

It is also not debatable that no other mask power in the series requires verbal or somatic components to activate, whereas mental triggers appear on all of them.

 

BIONICLE has also made several questionable decisions in the past, which are debated at length, so I see no problems in questioning this one as well.

 

 

Oh, and I'd still like a link to your game (I usually enjoy RPGs).

 

I'd also like to mention that your posts in the EM topics are still pretty messed up from the forum-wide formatting issues we had in the past, so you might want to go through and add some line breaks.

"If you are aware of the incoming danger, it is blocked. If you are not aware - such as because you do can't see it - it goes through. That's it."

 

Well, MOL called that into question. Because Tahu was aware of the Rahkshi attack, he projected the shield. Had he not been, evidently the shield would not appear. If it's up, and an unexpected attack comes, will it still block that? Or would it slip through that shield? There's been debate about this. I'm not really talking about whether any particular answer is canonically confirmed, I'm just saying it gave potential to get complicated as past discussions have shown.

The portrayal in MoL does not differ from any previous portrayals. Tahu looks at the incoming danger, and it gets blocked. The movie also took the artistic liberty of having him flung through a wall from the force, but the shield never failed to deploy. We see it get used the same way in the MNOG, where Onua looks at something and brings up the shield before he gets hit. If the shield is up and he can conceivably tell that the attack coming, he can block it. If it comes from outside his field of view, he cannot.

 

"But most I have seen has "summon specific monster" or "summon chosen monster" or "summon monster of a certain size". The Zatth is completely out of the user's control."

 

Well, I suspect that, too, was out of a concern that having control over it would make it overpowered. This way you can generally bet on either a distraction or a dud, but the distraction might end up being worse for the user.

"Either a distraction or a dud" is... well, pretty bad as far as masks go. I am of the mind that a mask power should only fail if it was ill suited to the situations, not because it worked but the result was entirely random. A major limit is already inherent in that you can't actually control the summoned creature. If it's usually like summoning a cow into a firefight, I do not think that it also needs to have a random chance to summon something entirely useless instead.

 

"I'm sure it could also have been a Mask of Power Scream, befitting it's open mouth."

 

Sure, but any mask shape could have been used for other powers besides what was chosen.

Which is exactly why I wonder why "Undeath", of all things, got approved.

 

"How is that over-complicating it? You are adding spoken commands, whereas mental commands would already be inherent in literally every single other mask power."

 

Well, I answered this in the quote you're replying to there... I'm not adding the concept of spoken commands. It comes from the idea of Matoran (spoken) being a programming language. And yes, the power has this unique to it (although given functionally infinite powers, undoubtedly there are others that involve speech; it was also partly chosen due to the mask shape's similarity to the Great Rau, which involves speech too; it should be simply seen as rare, not totally unique). Powers generally have things unique or mostly so to them. You're just picking out one of them here.

As said, I think that one mask with spoken commands is already stretching it. We have infinite possibilities when it comes to creating powers, so why feel the need to leap outside the established frame of mental commands? The setting is already filled with dozens of esoteric abilities and gear, so why cram vocal programming into a Kanohi?

 

Spoken Matoran would also need to be functionally a protocol for communication and instructions, not a full-fledged programming language, just throwing that out there. Their minds may run on a different setup.

 

"You like to act as if thinking it is more complicated than speaking it"

 

I'm saying it seems more dangerous. As long as you keep your mouth shut you know you're safe. Brains, at least for humans, can slip easily, yanno? You have to add some sort of a mental safeguard to get around this, which other masks like Komau or the normal mental triggering of powers don't have either. You're adding a "safe thoughts" and "final answer thought" idea that is foreign to just about anything, but thinking before speaking is a normal concept, already inherent in the idea that a spoken language is a programming language.

It is not foreign. It already exists in every other mask power. You trigger it mentally, and you shut it off mentally. In-between it runs its script, which in Conjuring's case would be a sophisticated recorder. This does not change whether it's vocal or mental, it still has to distinguish between your own commands and random background noise. I find it safe to say that the people who created the Komau and the Suletu should find it easy to let the user decide which words/thoughts end up being used by the power. It has to do with concentration, and I do not find it much different from what we already have.

 

If the Komau did not have a safeguard, how do we avoid it killing the target by overloading their brain with a stream of commands? How was Kongu able to filter through the stream of voices in his head, if it does not have a built-in "channel tuner"?

 

And if we've established that Matoran speak programming language, and that Toa can learn to activate/deactivate masks on a mental trigger, I don't see why actual voices have to enter the picture. I think you as well

 

"They should not need a mask to do it if they are really speaking a programming language - the commands would already be valid software for the hardware they are running."

 

Not sure what you mean here. You need some kind of input for the spoken programming language to control anything. The Conjuring power is one such input, granting limited control over powers.

I mean that if they speak the programming/protocol language, then they already have the syntax ready to go in their system. It should not need to be turned from digital to analog via the sound emitter, then re-recorded, translated and interpreted by the mask. If the Toa can generate a stream of "programming language" vocally, then their bodies should just as easily be able to route that very same (finalized, ready-to-speak) mental stream directly to the mask.

 

"Again, it's personal taste on your part as well."

 

Yes it is... Why do you mention this, since I've already said that? (It was mentioned in the quote this is replying to, too.)

I mention it because you appear to repeatedly bring it up as a point to defend your idea; that it's just my limited personal taste that gets in the way.

 

"But what you feel is inspired by BIONICLE is different from what others feel is inspired by BIONICLE."

 

?? But the thing that inspired it is part of Bionicle!

I have already told you why I think it is not, but OK.

 

Actually, the Mask of Truth evidentally actually does have an always-on listening and will in that sense be activated by hearing speech (and then give the user the sense of whether it's true or not, presumably with a telepathic addition, yes).

I will concede that the Rau works with spoken languages, but the Rode always seemed to me to be based entirely upon analyzing the target's psyche. It sees through disguises as well as lies.

 

The Rau also translates information that exists outside of the user, whereas a power that you trigger yourself (mentally, I want to add yet again) has no reason to take external input when all the input is already formalized in a stream of data within the user him/herself.

 

But even without that, having a unique feature doesn't prove it's bad. The Hau alone makes energy walls, and the Kaukau alone lets you breathe in water, etc. etc. (Unless you get those through Emulation or Conjuring type of powers. )

It's all well and good that it is unique, but as I've said I do not like the particular brand of unique you've brought to the table here.

 

Keep in mind too that once the programming is complete, normal mental control takes over until the power wears off.

Which works fine, no objections there.

 

Like I said, it's only taking long because somebody is bringing up lots of attempts to argue against it. But that could be done against any power; would that prove those powers are hard to grasp? No. And as I mentioned, that's happened in the past for some of them. But the basic idea is simple. Just don't overthink it lol.

 

Also works both ways. Katuko is saying his alternative is simpler, but taking many sentences to defend it. (Not that I'd use that argument, I'm just illustrating why the logic doesn't really work.)

Honestly, I don't think your logic works either, which is why we are debating.

 

"The wearer concentrates deeply on a power, which the mask will create for him. This power can only be kept for a short time, and will have inherent weaknesses based upon its design. Care must be taken, for a wrongly designed power may also cause a psychic backlash on the user when triggered. After a power has been used the mask must take time to recharge, and can thus not create a new power for a short while."

 

I can't help but think that it is simpler and more elegant than vocal commands, stating the time duration, forcing the user to speak their own weaknesses, etc. It keeps the power-making aspect, it can still have Trivia flair that mentions that it was inspired by Matoran being a programming language, it can still work on a syntax, you can still have someone who speaks the words out loud to concentrate better, you can still have people who make books of "spells" that work to bring with them.

I only ever saw the Bohrok --> Boxor thing as a machine being rebuilt into another machine, nothing more. Av-Matoran turning into Bohrok was kind of a stupid plot twist, but then they are still utterly dead. It's not like the Bohrok silently hopes the Toa will kill it so that it can end its miserable existence as a temporary slave worker.

 

If they did that would be pretty metal, though. Pun intended.

Like, to continue the analogy, discussing the exact sheild strength of the Hau, and what counts as being surprised, how (pun lol) the shield works (do unexpected things slip through and why? Or does the shield snap on like movie form, etc.?). Note that complex discussions about that have happened! And since it's basically a Star Trek shield (by description anyways) with an extra weakness "patched on", it's also "technobabbley".

If you are aware of the incoming danger, it is blocked. If you are not aware - such as because you do can't see it - it goes through. That's it. Simple in concept, simple to describe. We've seen it illustrated multiple times. The shield always turns on in time. This is not technobabble.

 

It would be technobabble if we started describing the radius of the shield, or the number of seconds you can keep blocking a continuous beam, or the amount of force in tons which it could resist before breaking.

 

-What's a fitting downside works the same way we as fans would judge these things for any power to make sure they're not OP. Use your imagination in specific cases.

Of course, but here we assume that it is the character who comes up with their own weakness and state it out loud in clear terms, not that they are working with an intrinsic "feel" of what doesn't work (such as a laser requiring too much energy).

 

-Yes, different stories are different. And each is different from the other.

Indeed.

 

-I don't agree about Zatth; plenty of stories have "summon a monster" powers.

But most I have seen has "summon specific monster" or "summon chosen monster" or "summon monster of a certain size". The Zatth is completely out of the user's control.

 

-I kinda agree about the Mohtrek. I am a fan of temporal mechanics, but since Greg made "no time travel" a rule, it feels like breaking a rule. Although he did say the Vahi could technically do it, so I suppose it works, as an out-story rule rather than in-story (and it does make some sense in a story about destiny).

I believe he explicitly said the Vahi could not time travel, because that's when he was first asked about time travel. But I'm glad we can agree on something.

 

-Undeath -- let's just save that for discussions about the power. Suffice to say that again, in-story it does make sense, and it seemed poetically appropriate for the dead-eyed Matoran shown wearing that shape in World.

I'm sure it could also have been a Mask of Power Scream, befitting it's open mouth.

 

-Defining powers for the other shapes (of the clear ones) that were seen in-story makes sense as explained in past topics, esp. for a worldbuilding story like this. We had noticed that these were being neglected, and it was inconsistent with 2001 defining every mask that was seen. You can dislike it if you want, but fact remains it made things more consistent. In hindsight (as this was before the canonization reforms of the Story Squad), should have thought of letting other fans suggest powers, but hindsight 20/20. We -were- planning a Kanohi contest to give people that chance, and Greg seemed open to it, but we ran out of time before he had to leave BZP.

See, if there'd been a contest, I would likely be more willing to accept some of these things, because then there would have been a period of discussion and votes for each entry. As it is, it's just another random fan-made power that honestly feels tacked on. I know I am not alone in thinking this. See other members in this topic, as well as the comic I linked.

 

-No, it doesn't cite examples of spells, but people should be able to think of them on their own.

We do, but evidently we all think of different things.

 

-With respect, all those "it could still be mental-only" ideas, while possible, seem like way overcomplicating things unnecessarily since 1) it was based on the concept of a spoken language that is a programming language, and 2) we already have "think it first then speak it when you're sure" to do the same thing, plus it adds another necessary way to not be OP that mental-only wouldn't.

How is that over-complicating it? You are adding spoken commands, whereas mental commands would already be inherent in literally every single other mask power. The Komau, in particular, transmits mental commands of sorts to the target, or some equivalent.

 

-Simpler isn't always better. Nothing wrong with that, but this is one power out of many. People can handle a little bit of variety, yanno? But again, it's not so complex as you're making it out to be. This also kinda contradicts the complicated mental thingamabob you're talking about, when just talking is simpler.

You like to act as if thinking it is more complicated than speaking it with a specific syntax, don't you? In a series where mental commands to activate powers already happen all the time but vocal commands do not.

 

-No, I don't see why it would be silly to have a power based on one of the more interesting reveals, that Matoran are always speaking a programming language, and have it be spoken for the power. Again, this is the kind of thing that personal tastes often cause -- it feels obvious to you because you're looking within yourself to judge that, and finding your own tastes inside you. Others don't. Speaking a 'spell' was the whole idea.

They should not need a mask to do it if they are really speaking a programming language - the commands would already be valid software for the hardware they are running. Again, it's personal taste on your part as well.

 

I think you're missing that you're coming up with this because the power as I defined it is inspiring you to think of it as an alternate version. But I wanted all these powers to be inspired closely by Bionicle concepts, like Biomechanics and Rebounding (2001 MNOG disks), where possible. If we'd done that, we'd be taking it farther away from its original inspiration for seemingly no constructive reason. It's another valid version of the concept, but that's arbitrary.

The concept is a not a new one. As you say, other series also allow people to invent their own spells and tech and powers. But what you feel is inspired by BIONICLE is different from what others feel is inspired by BIONICLE. To me, speaking a power definition out loud is not BIONICLE in any way, because every power in BIONICLE is based upon mental activation, or else forging a tech object and triggering it. Great Beings used programming speech, but then they used it directly to the beings they had created. Beings which communicated in this language, making it programming (a set of instructions) for the beings, but not for the powers they wield. The beings activated their powers through internal, not external, commands; something which makes sense. Spoken powers appear in other series I like, but I do not think we need them in BIONICLE when the existing system of mental commands will suffice.

You know what I mean. We don't eat human flesh, and we (usually) don't pick the bones out to build something else from.

I remember that topic. It gave me nightmares.

 

Didn't the Matoran also use the Bohrok's "spare parts" to rebuild themselves...? The whole Bohrok -> Av-Matoran gets creepier and creepier as you think about it.

Eh, it's just the metal shell of a long dead being, it's not like there's muscle tissue left on them. And even if there were, the inhabitants of the Matoran Universe would not find it gross the same way we find blood and gore gross. They don't exactly kill Matoran for the sole purpose of building Boxor out of them. they just reuse parts that could never go back in "the cycle" anyways.

 

If humans left behind a skeleton that never rotted I'd bet we'd be using the material much like they did in the old days with animal skeletons, in order to make tools and other useful items.

Both the power to copy other powers and to cast spells to write other powers are themselves powers.

Again: One is a script that does one thing. The other is a script you write yourself. There is a clear difference, as you make clear. As said, though, the issue is not with the power itself, it is with the somewhat technobabbly description that we could do well to fix.

 

Nobody's arguing differently -- this is missing the point of the argument. The point is that "this has X gain and the downsides that make it not OP are patched-on" logic fails when tested with examples you do accept, so shouldn't be used against ones you don't personally enjoy.

I mean that the downsides are patched on by the character him/herself, but this does not really work with either the magic stance (where they should be able to "feel" that something was wrong before it lashed out) or from the programming perspective (where you would either get a failure to run, or a crash on run, but not a crash before you were even finished writing). In a real programming language you would either get a script that doesn't run that all, or a script which runs but crashes. Making a mistake while writing the script itself would not instantly hit you with bad effects. It would only do so if you tried to run the failed program. And how are you supposed to know what the mask will consider a "fitting" downside, for instance? If I say "death laser with 5000 degrees Celsius output and 5 second energy charge-up", is that too much?

 

My taste issues comes from this trying to be magic and tech in one, but I don't feel it fulfills either.

 

I must say, though, it seems unlikely any of those opposing it would really dislike a story featuring it (if written well etc.).

I've said as much. But keep in mind that when you write that story, you evidently do not wish to include all the details about exact time limit etc. Why include the numbers in the mask, then, is my question?

 

I also like wizards who pull spells and cool powers out of their rears, but that is usually a different setting with a different tone, or at least it's established that any character does it. Here it's more... BIONICLE started getting more and more silly powers tacked on. Like, you run out of options eventually, when you make powers rigid and also generic concepts, but I do not think the solution is to make the new masks have less rigid or more extravagant powers. That is just compounding the issue.

 

I can't help but suspect this is coming more out of an anti-canonization preference and had the same power been made by LEGO directly these arguments would be much more unlikely.

I have disliked several canon powers as well, but right now this is mostly about Conjuring. Still, here goes:

- I dislike the Zatth because it is too random. One time it pulls out a useless fish, the other it grabs a leviathan, you have no way of knowing. A tiny change would let this mask fit better in: Let the user pick the nearby Rahi to summon, so that the limits are on range and focus, not on utter predictability.

- The Mohtrek. Why does it have to introduce all the silly timeline continuity issues by pulling clones from the past ad then sending them back afterwards? Have it work like so many other fictional powers and just clone the user on the spot (Naruto and Dragonball, plus plenty of video games, do this). That way you can still have them linked to the same form, and you can still have the injuries of one be mirrored on the others.

- The Mask of Undeath. We have discussed this one before. Do we really need an autopilot zombie in BIONICLE? I don't really think so. It's one of those odd things that are just tacked on.

 

Anything you know how to code right. Given the risk, in practice that means, except in extreme circumstances (where it just might be necessary), likely memorizing a few proven spells (maybe more if you have a book or the like). But yes, in a lot of situations it would (either way) be a last-resort power, which personally I like as I like stories where powers aren't an option, sometimes, yanno?

I'm guess I prefer the type of stories where either everyone has predefined powers ("Guys, you know I'm a vampire, I must wait until the sun goes down!") or the ones where they have purely equipment-based powers ("Sure, my thermal vision goggles are cool, but I can't use them in direct sunlight") or the ones where most people have established wizard magic ("If you give me a day to research the sun I can make a spell to shield you from sunburn"). BIONICLE has been a series in which you have a mix of one and two, and I'm reluctant to accept that any old Toa - who already have so many powers to choose from, options to exchange powers (Suva, Mask of Emulation) and options to recieve powered equipment... that they should even get a power that allows them to make more powers then and there.

 

A fair taste to have. Just remember that the mask image was meant to be on a Matoran's face, and Matoran don't as far as we know normally make Matoran masks in the shape of Legendary Kanohi.

Yes, and this is one reason why I don't like that we are sticking powers onto masks that appeared for a single frame in the comics - especially the ones that were just rough background objects. I'm a bit cynical at times, and I can't help but imagine that we eventually end up as Vrahno predicts here.

 

"is both too undefined and way too defined at the same time."

 

That doesn't really work, yanno. Where it really should be defined, it is.

It defines that you must state weaknesses out loud. It does not cite any examples, which makes it just as much up in the air as just saying that "the finished power will have certain limits and weaknesses based upon its design".

 

The duration is based on similar statements for other canon masks, and the fact that even with ones where it wasn't stated, it's understood that most do have a duration, and then a time to recharge. It also makes more sense for this one because it emphasizes its not being overpowered, that it's a small amount of time.

Yes. Understood, but never put into pure numbers.

 

Telepathic command could be possible, but the power was inspired by Matoran being a programming language, and it's normally spoken. Thought-based control also seems less confined to exact syntax and the like, so I think that would make its risk of that downside larger.

Their brains operate in the same language. When programming I restrain myself to the syntax and the inherent limitations of the program I am making. They can also manipulate the finer aspects of other powers with their thoughts, such as the Mask of Mind Control.

 

Plus, this way there's a clear method of thinking through what you're going to say first to make sure it's right and then speaking it, so you can't accidentally "think too hard" and go insane.

I'd assume that you would think it through, then mentally activate the "record" button, concentrate on the power you want, and then have the mask fix it up. Like VBA, when you turn on the code helper. It helps you with the exact syntax, but that does not mean you can't still mess it up royally.

 

"I believe it would have been much simpler to say that it allows the user to imagine a power, but it takes time and concentration to manifest it."

 

I wouldn't mind that, but if a carefully limited definition is going to get dislikes, I'd think one that sounds more open to the risk of being OP could get them all the more.

People will debate the OPness of anything anyway, so we might as well make it simpler in the first place.

 

Like Dragonball: The writer introduced characters who could read the "power level" of others with a scouter device. It displayed the power in numbers, leading to wild and unnecessary doting about numbers whenever characters fought. Soon enough the numbers became ridiculous, and the scouters were dropped from the series -- a good change in the mind of most fans. One character even joked about it later: "One does not predict or calculate power such as ours", he says to an android which tries to analyze him. He proceeds to destroy it easily after it told him he was obviously too weak to have any chance at winning.

 

I'd say this is such a case: We can debate the power itself until the world ends, but ditch the numbers.

 

Normally I would agree, but the whole idea of the theme for that mask was to place emphasis on precision, based on this being necessary in programming languages.

I enjoy programming, and I greatly enjoy powers with clear rules and limits, but this one is... well, not clear. It's pretty much the opposite of clear. I feel that it either needs a full library of functions and parameters, or it needs to be a tiny bit more "magic science" and a tiny bit less "do this and this and this, out loud".

 

Here again you're going beyond just taste, though. Again, it may feel self-evident to you that this is 'stupid' but really that just means you don't like it. It need not be seen that way at all. You don't really present any reason to think that; the only apparent reason is your preferences.

But you do see why I think it is silly, do you not? Speaking out loud to yourself to create a mentally activated power? What does the mask care? How does it even recieve and interpret the sound, for instance? If the mask had earphones and a mic I might be more open for this way of doing it.

 

That's again a taste-based argument, where it may feel that way to you but only because of your preferences. Actually the restraints are what they are for good reasons. They make sense with the basic idea of it being inspired by Matoran being a programming power.

Well, I am a programmer, and I know that text-to-speech interpretation is far more prone to errors than direct digital input (in this case Matoran mindwaves) would be. There is no reason to design a system which goes via the human's way of speaking if you can do it directly in the machine's way of speaking. Matoran is a programming language, yes, but again: If you can speak and it happens, then the system should also be smart enough to add the limits to the power by itself.

 

I can especially relate to it personally having taken classes on programming, and done some on the side (like programming for my RPG computer game). You quickly learn that the precision concept isn't forced at all.

Please, bones. I've taken programming classes and done games as well, I know what you are talking about. If you have a link to your game I'd be interested, by the way.

 

Keep in mind you don't really need to know some of the limits, like that it could be overheard or that it takes time; those can be deduced and were explained just so people wouldn't confuse it for being OP. The timing I think in this case you would need to know, and the need for precision. The mental backlash, I would not call essential, but it's a cool addition IMO and it helps make it even clearer it isn't OP.

 

This still leaves it as more complex of a definition than other powers, but again, that fits the precision theme.

I guess I'll just sum it up and say I'd prefer it to be based on deep mental concentration with appropriate limits added semi-automatically, the same way that you can program whatever you like but end up with lag, or something that does something else than what you thought. Taking the "safety label" off - such as making a death laser with no charge time and no cooldown - would just make it backfire on you.

Of course it's also easier to look at something and lift it off the ground, instead of having to shoot it with a Kanoka of Telekinesis and hope it goes where you want it to. I'm fuzzy on the details of how mental control works with disk powers, especially since Matoran could apparently steer disks from Ga-Metru mentally. It was also never clear to me how exactly you "ride" a disk in Akilini. Do you grab on tight, or do you stand on it like a surfboard? Is it launched from some sort of device in the arena, or do you just pick it up and jump? The rules of the game seem to imply that you surf, but I've only seen images of Matoran in chutes clutching disks to their chest, never any art of standing on them.

Teleportation seems like it would be the most useful in daily life, as it'd allow me to be so much more efficient. No more wasting hours in the car to visit relatives or go on vacation, I'd just teleport there. If it has limited range, no sweat, I can spend a few minutes on teleporting multiple times instead. This would also make my traveling more frequent, I imagine, because I could go wherever I felt like without having to set aside time and money for it.

 

Teleportation is followed by Telekinesis. It'd just be so very useful to be able to fetch items from a shelf without having to climb a chair, to move more stuff at once than I could possibly carry in just two hands, to do things at a distance instead of wasting time going back and forth, etc. I could also do things like catch people who slip on ice, or help others up the stairs with their heavy items (or up a floor period, no stairs required).

 

If I got hurt more often I'd choose Quick Healing. If I got the max-level version I could heal others, so that would be more immediately useful, otherwise I guess I'd have fun living my new life as an indestructible being. Presumably you still feel pain, though, so it's not like I could use deliberately it for much except as a safeguard.

It's a shame the old topics vanished away the last time they upgraded the forum, or else I'd link you to a few posts where me and Silverglass discussed the possibility of "zombie" Exo-Toa made from the remains of dead Toa of Light.

I was summoned by the sound of someone who possibly hates the properties of the mask of conjuring as much as me.

Ah, well, I don't hate it completely. I just dislike its design as-is. I'm more concerned about this voting at large because it has so very few voters in total. I've given the link to Reddit and a couple of friends of mine, but I can't help but think that only a miniscule fraction of the community - even the BZP community - knows about this poll's existence.

 

 

If I can't be serious about a toyline that ended years ago - and for which I am way past its target group - then my life no longer has meaning. I am a cold hard shell of a man, who is only filled with warmth when fictional lasers get fired at the heads of equally fictional cyborgs.

Lol. 

 

Although I may point out that the Mask of Conjuring is canon regardless of the result of yonder poll. I now feel like using it in a fanfic just to stick my tongue out at all of yon haters.

 

I mentioned it to bonesiii above: I can think of several uses for it, I just don't like the way it is designed/described. I could very well end up including it in a fanfic, but I'd be axing the precise description of time limits, and I'd definitely ignore the speak-out-loud clause in favor of being rendered immobilized and effectively blind to your surroundings while concentrating deeply on the power to be. I'd also just let the mask handle the limits of the power intrinsically, instead of having you stand there and state them out loud.

 

I mean, as a programmer myself I'd probably be delighted to have it on my Suva, but I do not think it makes for a good story the way it is right now.

 

"I need the power to look through solid objects, with the downside of--"

 

No. Why. Spoken Matoran = mental Matoran. Just let the wearer focus deeply in silence instead, and have a lapse in concentration spell out mental backlash and a failed power instead. Fulfills the same limits in practice, but is less silly when written.

If I can't be serious about a toyline that ended years ago - and for which I am way past its target group - then my life no longer has meaning. I am a cold hard shell of a man, who is only filled with warmth when fictional lasers get fired at the heads of equally fictional cyborgs.

 

If I appear to be cold towards you, that is merely a result of being jaded from years of watching BIONICLE kind of slowly spiral downwards towards its eventual doom, followed by years of people trying to twist answers out of Greg and getting their personal fan theories and ideas canonized.

They do lose power over time, but so do Kanohi.

And even then, Kanoka lose roughly 5 levels worth of power in the process of making them into Kanohi, implying that they should actually last longer than Kanohi do under constant use, unless they blow a ton of energy upon impact in addition to what gets used in manifesting the power upon the target.

Someone do more campaigning for Conjuring...

Please, if we are to have a community vote, at least don't use your own topic to ask people to vote for your personal preferences.

 

I'll try to spread the link to this topic around, though, so that we can at least have more votes total. I'll say it again: Canonizing something with 11 votes and calling it a community effort is really stretching the term. As it is, the poll might actually be better off hosted by Greg on the official LEGO boards.

All powers need to have both upsides and downsides, which incidentally the Conjuring definition mentioned.

The difference is that one is a finished power - even the one that copies other powers - that works a certain way. The other is a power which has its effects made up on the spot whenever it is convenient.

 

If you have the Hau, you always have the shield. If you add the Kakama to the Suva, then you have speed. But if you have Conjuring, then you could potentially be walking around with every power imaginable at once, and because that is such an obvious game breaker you add some heavy downsides to it -- but those same downsides means that the masks' usage is suddenly convoluted. Convoluted in that you have to make a full description of the new power any time it is used, mind, not that it is hard to understand. Compare to Emulation, which also takes time to scan and copy, but which does not require any lengthy design speech. Heck ,the description for Conjuring even says that you must mention weaknesses, which heavily implies that you can't just leave obvious ones unspoken. It's like... it's like the more recent TF2 weapons: a lot of stats and gimmicks applied to a weapon to make it interesting, but a good concept does not necessarily make it good in execution.

 

If you don't like this category of powers, that's fine, but I don't think it's fair (hey maybe biased though) to make it sound like it's somehow inconsistent. IMO it's a likely choice of one of the earliest powers the Great Beings would make, since they had a permanent version of it that they would use when creating beings like Umbra to have powers they assign him. Why not just say it's not to your personal likes?

I did not say I did not like the category of the power. I said I do not like this particular way of having it in the story. I even gave examples - I'd like it as a Legendary mask for the GBs with less restrictions, I like its version in the Mask of Emulation, and I like it as a potential machine that produces masks according to instructions. But I do not like a portable power-making factory strapped to someone's face, because the obvious balancing factors added to it makes it "meh" -- and that is personal opinion, yes.

 

It's also similar to the original idea of masks as being swappable. If this is bad, then a Suva must be bad by the same basic logic. While I think Suva make sense to be rare, they could and did exist. It's just that instead of collecting physical masks with the risks associated with its storage, you collect spells with the constant risks of misspeaking, being overheard and anticipated, being slower than a mask that already has its power defined, etc.

A Suva is bad in that you can deliberately load it with plot-solving powers, but a Suva is still a pre-defined limit. It sotres X number of masks, and you can use one at a time. A great power boost to those that have it, and it does not try to hide that fact. The Suva is designed to boost your abilities with 5 extra powers. Once you have chosen your powers, you generally stick with them, at least, so that the writers end up solving problems in new scenarios through clever use of established powers, rather than inventing new ones on the spot. The Faxon was already borderline for this. Heck, the Faxon is another one that could replace Conjuring, because it already has an ill-defined power pool, but is not bogged down by extra flair that adds nothing except strict numbers.

 

And yes, I know the speed is an issue with Conjuring, but as I said, it appears to either be a do-anything mask, or a do-nothing mask. I'd prefer to have just the "do anything" part, but pump it up a tier on the scale of Kanohi. As it is, it is just slow magic that is both too undefined and way too defined at the same time. It's like it tries to be a mysterious magic mask, but at the same time it's bogged down by too much description about its technical aspects. 15 min duration, must state weaknesses out loud, etc. It feels forced. If a Toa can command the thing to activate with their brain, they should be able to formulate the power in their brain as well.

 

I believe it would have been much simpler to say that it allows the user to imagine a power, but it takes time and concentration to manifest it. Leave all the technical details of the exact power structure and weaknesses less blatant. It makes sense that if you imagine "I want a giant laser", that it will have either a charge-up time, or a cooldown between uses, or it tires you out, or something. You can do these considerations in your mind. It then also makes more sense that messing up will mess with your brain rather than just the mask.

 

Having a character stand upright and clearly state:

 

"I want a [GIANT LASER], that is, a [bEAM] of [PHOTONS AND/OR ELECTRONS], which will fire at [A TARGET] within [LINE OF SIGHT] and [CAUSE GREAT HARM] to my it ii. As a downside to this [iNCREDIBLY STRONG ATTACK], it must spend [A GIVEN AMOUNT OF TIME] on [CHARGING ENERGY], so that it will [NOT DRAIN MY OWN ENERGY] (or [DRIVE ME INSANE] with [bACKLASH], please)."

 

...is rather stupid. No offense to the mask's creator, I hope. I get the distinct feeling that is you, though.

 

Yes it is, just like the Genie in Aladdin fulfills wishes. This again looks like taste talking; it may feel self-evident to you due to a taste against this type of power (with its downsides), but stories can and do feature wishes. It's also like any number of stories where wizards cast spells, and even more limited than usual!

I do not have a direct problem with wish-fulfilling powers in particular, but I do have a problem with this particular version of a wish-fulfilling power. It's both too open and too closed at the same time. The main power makes it appear overpowered if not restrained, but the restraints makes it appear too forced, as if someone desperately wanted to cram the power into BIONICLE but were not sure how.

 

See, this is a great example of the mistake of failing to think in-story. Not all Toa would agree with this. If one had a personality like the one I described where they felt it was worth the risk, the obvious benefits would be something they would desire (as with any power with its pros and cons). It seems to me you do see the worth to them -- wish fulfilment. It's just that for out-story reasons (a personal dislike of this variety of wish fulfilment) you don't see the worth to the story from your perspective as a fan (of your tastes). But that doesn't really work as the story is aimed at multiple tastes.

No. I can imagine several scenarios in my head where Conjuring can be used to good effect in a story, but I then see them as muttering a spell-like incantation to themselves, and without stating the obvious, if you will. I just don't think its "speak aloud and with clear pros/cons" description works all that well with BIONICLE. The concept is alright, but the execution is - to say it again - thoroughly "meh" to me.

 

It boils down to preferences, yes, but as you say yourself I could say the same for your preferences as to what fits and doesn't fit the series. You already have an immense amount of effort put into the Expanded Multiverse, and we've discussed aspects of that in the past, but it boils down to that half of the EU stuff is rather at odds with BIONICLE as a whole, depending on who you ask. Don't try to push too much of it into main canon without refining it.

 

 

EDIT: I might be bogging down the actual vote discussion. If you wish to take this to PM instead, tell me so.

It's not even been a week. That is absolutely too early.

I agree. This is not a fan-contest. This is canon. It even irks me if a canonization option wins with a mere 14 votes for it total. Like, does half the site even know about this poll? It's a community vote about canonization an aspect of the old story. Put it on the site's front page in bold letters, for crying out loud. And keep it open long enough that people have a chance to notice it!

 

It baffles me that the Mask of Conjuring, one of the most convoluted masks to get made up all those years ago, is holding any sort of position. Numbers with your positions would be beneficial for those of us who have not voted (yet).

I agree. In my personal opinion it's pretty much a "I want this power, mommy" mask except with obvious rule patches on top of it, and it runs counter to pretty much every other mask, which have a single, pre-defined power each. Not that we can't have a Conjuring mask, but it appears to be bogged down by rules and restrictions just so that it can be available to everyone. I prefer Creation because it's a big-name mask with a big "do anything" power, but it doesn't try to hide that fact.

 

Yikes, that was a little harsh.

If it keeps us from canonizing stuff with 10 votes after a few days worth of non-voting, I say go ahead. Not hating on anyone in particular here, but I agree that a lot seems to be rushed.

 

 

It baffles me that the Mask of Conjuring, one of the most convoluted masks

Well, my response to this may (perhaps somewhat fairly) be disregarded as due to bias (except obviously some others do like it), but I disagree with "convoluted" or the suggestion that the power shouldn't exist in Bionicle. (If it was that, I obviously wouldn't have suggested it.)

 

I'd call that last sentence a fallacy if I ever saw one. I think you know why.

 

First, it's based on some important behind-the-scenes reveals like that the Matoran language is a coding language and that the artificial version of protodermis that the Great Beings made is what generates powers. It makes sense that in addition to random mixing of powers, intentional coding is possible especially since the Great Beings did create some powers themselves. In fact, most likely the intentional programming of a power is the original way and they designed the power mixing system to sort of "hide" the inner workings of the Matoran's reality from them so they couldn't mess it up too easily if things went wrong with them.

I agree with this, but I still see it as too complicated a power to use for a mask. If it was a power/machine/interface used to create and then load powers into a final mask, I might find it more fitting, but as it is it's mostly just a wish-fulfilling power in my book.

 

I would say it's fair to call the evidence that went into this reasoning little-known. Some might use "mocking tone fallacy" to describe it as "obscure." But this reasoning also need not be known at all to accept that the power exists. Tons of super-power stories have powers like this. There's a whole group of these "adaptable" powers, such as absorbing powers you see (Peter Petrelli for example), and wizarding stories especially will have the ability to speak a spell and a specific effect will happen based on the wording (the chosen name for the power alludes to this). The Matrix featured basically this except in a (deadly) virtual world, and simpler versions of various options of forcefields and the like responding to instructions are common in things like Star Trek.

I agree with this as well, but we already have that mask - the Mask of Emulation, which is designed to copy a power it sees being used. As for magic spells, the mask themselves are the incantation - they have been produced with a "program" in them. While it makes some sense that there would exist system development packages for Matoran Kanohi, I don't see the worth in having a mask for it. We already have Mask makers, the Mask of Emulation, the Mask of Creation, and so forth.

 

Giving any schmuck the ability to speak the word and create a new power for themselves - especially when you have to add limitations such as them have to follow strict rules etc. for no reason except to keep the mask power from being overpowered in the grander scheme of the story ... I think that just fails to speak well for the mask that it is so intricate. Having to take your time with making a power is OK, but at the same time it's a magic genie that is worn on your face. That is my main issue with it, I think. Its power is such that it should probably just be a fantastical Super-tier mask once used by the GBs to test-run their universe, but in the process of making it available to the common folk it's "dumbed down" with long cast times and vague "it has to have a weakness" restrictions.

 

 

 

So yeah, I voted for more simple masks that I imagine could be useful for fighting a dragon, like Strength and Flight. I tossed in Healing as well.

 

 

EDIT: I had trouble posting this due to momentary Internet failure. If it suddenly shows up multiple times for some reason I apologize.

May I ask how Takanuva was resurrected at the end of the movie?

Movie magic. We've never had much of an explanation for it.

 

The book version of the movie just had him climb out from under the rubble after the fusion got crushed, IIRC.

I was perfectly fine with not even knowing the entire team's elements, so tossing masks and weapons on top of it isn't necessary at all in my book.

 

Disk of Regeneration: How I like to imagine it works. Most of the disks are only made so that they can then be shaped into masks, I think. It's just easier for the Matoran than trying to pour molten protodermis directly into a complex mold.

Hey, these are pretty good. I might have to borrow your talents to fill in a few missing sprites for my game.

Wha..? I specifically tested group hits, even. With ignition sound on it crashed, with ignition sound off it never did. I just realized that the boss attack causes multiple explosions at once, though, and I forgot to disable those sounds. Sorry about that. :/