Noxryn

 

 

 

 

I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.

I grew up with Bionicle. It didn't teach me that men are better than women, or that women can't be heroes. If anyone "learned" that from Bionicle, then please let us know.

 

-snip-

Are you suggesting that I am unaware of what I'm being taught? Do explain further.

 

If you've ever taken a basic psychology or sociology course, you get to learn through case studies and content that yes, people do learn things they don't realize they are being taught (and teach things they don't intend to teach). There's a reason why a lot of time is spent analyzing media, because media plays a role with regards to how people perceive the world (amongst other influences). Fact of the matter is: Bionicle seriously dropped the ball with female characters -- that's not even an opinion at this point as there's sufficient evidence to back up the claim and point out how the story team treated female characters so much differently from the male characters in the story. Evidence that can be found throughout this thread. 

Bionicle, as a line, has not treated their female characters the same as their male ones (redundant statement of the day, I know), nor has it given as much time to their female fans as to the male fans (and it's unnecessarily gendered, like... you realize girls and women can love this story and get really into it and are a legitimate part of the fandom, right? So why couldn't it be marketed towards both groups? Or more?)

I already iterated that even if every single female character was entirely unique (which they weren't) that's still getting only... an incredibly small handful of female characters per year, where usually a singular personality trait dominates the perception of them in the story for that year (since there's such a small amount of them in the first place). We don't get a bunch of wide, varied personalities and unique interactions and positions for them to be in -- there are literally 0 female Toa leaders who made it into the main story, let alone getting a set (and who aren't insane or evil or what have you). So, the suggestion to fix it is to introduce more varied, unique, well-written female characters and have them more common in the overall story and perhaps even have some female leaders in the future -- treating them on par with the male characters, basically. I don't understand how doing that and wanting that is blown so far out of proportion by some people, or why it's seen as the ruination of Bionicle in some cases, or why that specific idea is ridiculed and mocked... but, whatever. 

muaka and kane-ra

always wanted one of those infected haus

Took me a while, lots of debating and looking at gameplay and customization and PvP and the maps/vehicles and so forth... but I might pick it up (especially since other people I know are). Technically I was invited to the beta, but due to not feeling well and playing other games and betas with other friends (too much Archeage, Guild Wars 2, and League of Legends @.@) I never redeemed the code or downloaded the beta client (I mean, I was also too lazy to ever update my FFXIV account info on my PS4 so there's that). 

Dunno how much the game itself will grip me, nor how often I'll have to play it (between classes, medical appointments, outside time, creative writing, other games, etc...) but if I do I'll prolly be running that light armor class (I forget the name of it) as that's usually just my playstyle. 

But, uh, come launch and you see a Spinkiepie running around (I'm assuming it goes off PSN name?) then that's most likely me and I'm most likely going to be staring at scenery. Still sorta hoping there's more colorful locations in the game, but I like some of the atmospheres (like the totally dark area someone went in a LP). 

Usually not terribly big on shooters, but if I can be a neon colored cybertronic creature I'm down with it. Sorta hoping the story doesn't end up being one of those "We take ourselves so seriously, we deal in the dark, our adventures are gritty, dangerous and filled with death" since I still feel like those stories are rather overdone and trite at this point. But if I do get it and like the gameplay and that is the story, I'd likely just outright ignore its existence and make up an elaborate headcanon for everything. 

And prolly make a fun-based character if there's ever RP that sprouts up around it (kinda like I did in GW2 to offset the... incredible amount of dark, dangerous mercenaries/assassins/grizzled warriors x.x)

Well, this debate has gone well. I put my idea on the table, and now on Tumblr I have been called out as a racist, said that I had a 100% [redacted] oppinion, simply because I made the rhetorical statement of saying that if there was an equal amount of males and females in Bionicle, we should have an equal amount of Black and White characters, to show that biomechanical creatures are in fact not human, and there are a lot of factors involved in representation since this is a toyline after all.

 

Great to know the community is great in BZPower.

Ok, I'll bite.

It isn't BIONICLE's job to be 100% equal and teach kids to be 100% nice and fair.

Should we have black and white Bionicle's so we don't upset any different groups?

So, you're saying you see absolutely nothing wrong with this statement? You preface it by stating that Bionicle isn't the place to look for equal representation, or for 100% nice and fairness and then proceed to write "should we have black and white Bionicle's so we don't upset any different groups?" On one hand, there is no race in Bionicle like there is in real life so immediately your point holds 0 water within this discussion. Secondly, you're acting like putting in other demographics is some sort of equality-favor that media shouldn't be held accountable for, since media doesn't have to be "100% nice and fair."

Yeah, it's a poor opinion since it brings absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand and its existence relies on shutting down discussion and others' opinions on what they would like to see in Bionicle going forward. On top of that, it can definitely be seen as racist insofar that you stated Bionicle doesn't have to be "100% equal" and then state as if excluding other races and so forth would be fine if they all did have real-world races -- meaning, cutting down representation for other groups of fans and people and making it harder for them to identify with the characters and, if this were criticized by those fans, I'd imagine you'd just pull out this opinion in that instance ("Bionicle doesn't have to do anything you like, they don't have to be 100% fair")?

Either way, your position definitely seems to be against including a larger female presence in the series going forward (which is what a lot of fans want), along with shutting down the statements others hold about where Bionicle messed up with its female characters in the past and pitfalls the writers shouldn't fall into again. But in conflating that with race, the entire statement you made comes off as at least somewhat racist, in terms of that it appears you are saying it'd be fine if Bionicle excluded other races (if they did have actual races in the story) on the basis that it doesn't have to be "100% nice and fair."

So, basically... it's just not well thought out, nor is it well worded, and it's maligning a lot of people and when an opinion maligns people it's really not a positive one to hold.

Also, don't bypass the word filter (you can get in trouble for it, future reference).

i usually just type out whatever emoticon i want to use, easier and no giant lists

and more options

=)

:> :> =>

five for the price of one

1, 2, 3, 4

Happy, happy birthday
From all of us to you
We wish it was our birthday
So we could party too
Happy, happy birthday
May all your dreams come true
We wish it was our birthday
So we could party too

There were also a lot of real-world, controversial issues that people began to apply to BIONICLE, Hero Factory, and Ninjago which bordered on political discussion without quite reaching that point. 

Bionicle, Lego, etc... don't exist in a fantasy void completely separate from the real world. They're pieces of media people consume, kids consume, that put forth values and lessons that those kids then learn and allow to become a part of how they think later on when they interact more with the real world. As a result, it is a positive thing to make mention of the negative things Bionicle and other lines do that potentially (or flat out do) malign other people of the fanbase (even if they're a minority in the fanbase), so that others understand that it's a flaw with the line and isn't a message to be taken from it. And people didn't "apply" it to these lines, the writers of the lines applied it themselves in practice -- they're the ones who made the blunders and errors.  

In most cases, though, Pomegranate's more or less right in terms of that a lot of members held various forms of those opinions when they were younger and getting into the line (for example, being a young girl and enjoying the line and upset that there weren't more characters for you to identify with and that the theme felt incredibly boy-centric when it didn't need to be). So, undoubtedly, there would be future kids who'd feel similarly if Bionicle trudged onwards the same and unchanged and I'd have no issues for those kids expressing their concerns, their desires to see themselves represented and so forth. I do express concern for those who would try to tell them they can't feel that way, think that way, that their discussion is less valid, that they're too immature to have that discussion or take part in it. The latter are honestly the people who turn those discussions negative. 

Especially with a potential reboot on the horizon, these are important discussions to have, important critiques to make, since nothing would ever change in any story if no one gave their criticisms and opinions. I am still hoping Lego chooses to make some more of the Mata female (since they seem to be rebooting with them), as that'd right a wrong that existed from Bionicle's inception and would open up the line to a larger audience without alienating so many people for no reason. 

as a fan and junk, part of me does wish it wasn't as constrictive as it is since like... talking about stuff is fun 'n all

but, the reason behind it is Lego informed BZPower of their leaked content policy (like, don't spread it and so forth) and BZP's just complying with Lego's wishes... and it is Lego's content, so ultimately they have the right to give or rescind permission to distribute it (and i figure going against their wishes wouldn't elevate BZP in the company's eyes). 

either way, there's other places to chat about it so it's not a horrible hindrance. 

So, if I don't agree with you, I must be wrong? If you think that Bionicle is a sexist story about men oppressing women then that's fine by me. I am not sexist simply for believing that Bionicle is not sexist as for disagreeing with you. I think that Bionicle is fine and people should focus on the story rather then the genders of those in the story. How can people turn Bionicle into a feminist argument?

Read that post, it essentially details precisely why you are incorrect and why your "opinion" isn't an opinion in the same way preferring one color over another is an "opinion." As, regardless of what you think, opinions can have affects on the world and there are opinions that cause unnecessary harm, discrimination and perpetuate harmful beliefs that belittle others -- those types of opinions are wrong to have, if you want to have a better society for everyone.

By the way, Gender is in the story: it's how the viewers, the readers, the kids who are interested in the story, identify and insert themselves and pick out role models and characters they can compare themselves to, or even aspire to be like. It's important, it's incredibly important, but of course you miss that because this lack of representation didn't affect you and you refuse to empathize with those who it did affect (granted how many times you try to shut them down, say their opinions aren't important, that their feelings are irrelevant, that this is just some overreaction).

Also, I don't really care what you personally believe, but if you constantly feel the need to say "hey, I'm not sexist BUT... " you need to re-evaluate what you are saying and think a bit more critically about your own rhetoric.

And I'm sorry if I come off a little sharp here, but it really rubs me the wrong way whenever someone barges into a discussion people would like to have and then proceed to try and invalidate the discussion by pushing off these members' opinions as unimportant and of little value. Again, whether you choose to believe it or not, it is a fact that poor representation in media bothered a lot of fans and they have just as much validation to discuss this aspect of the story as anyone has any validation to talk about any other aspect of the story (otherwise we'd just remove this entire forum, because in the end it would be entirely pointless, right? I mean, it's only a toyline.).

But again -- Bionicle having an entire tribe dedicated to only females (out of six) is a show of discriminatory actions towards female characters. Having only one female character per wave of sets (sometimes not at all and in a set of seven [Piraka] there isn't one) is detrimental and maligns female fans who would like to have a variety of characters to identify with, to enjoy and read about and aspire with and even roleplay with -- male fans get 5 for every 1 female character, that's 5 different characters with different personalities whereas the 1 female character is all there is and retains one personality (And let's say they were all unique, we have Macku/Hahli/Gali and Nokama year 1. Um, how many differnt males did we get again? At least 20 [Hewkii, Jaller, Takua, Tahu, Lewa, Kopaka, Onua, Pohatu, Onewa, Kopeke, Matoro, Onepu, Nuparu, Matau, Vakama, Whenua, Nuju, Kapura, Hafu, Kongu]).

The ratios are terrible, the representation is terrible, and it's a completely valid thing to critique since there are female fans and they are not less important than male fans. They deserve representation, they deserve characters they can identify with, they deserve characters who have interesting and unique personality that has some depth. And the kicker? It wouldn't "ruin" Bionicle, it wouldn't hurt the line, it wouldn't do anything negative to the line itself -- so what's the argument here? Is the argument just people not wanting the term "sexist" related to Bionicle? Well, what the writers as a whole did with the female characters it can definitely apply, granted female characters were treated drastically different than male characters (Sidorak was never leering into Vakama's ear and seductively whispering that he could become his king, now was he?) and there's even an internal issue where the Great Beings were written as sexist -- they made females nicer and gentler canonically, they did that, a writer wrote that, someone in the real world wrote that facet into the story that only ended up creating an even larger line between the female and male differences that already existed. (Oh yeah, and there were some deviations, but usually shown with extreme violence... where's the level headed female leader? Where's the up front and center female leader who gets a set? Is that fair? Is that treating female characters and male characters the same?)

Realizing that there is an issue doesn't mean it's a terrible series. Everything has flaws, and this is one major flaw Bionicle had with its treatment of characters and with how the story was written -- it alienated and ignored a significant portion of fans. Whether they meant to or not doesn't matter anymore, what matters is what happened: it happened. It's a thing that happened. You can't deny it occurred. Like, to do so would be akin to saying stars are made of marshmallows (Spoiler; they're not :c). What do we do about unintended sexism? We critique it, call it out, and hopefully get it fixed. We don't kick it under the rug as unimportant: that does absolutely no one a service. 

Now lemme put something out here: You're only sexist if you mean to be. 

 

I don't really have the time right now to get into everything else (and not entirely well enough), but I would like to say that this statement isn't true. Anyone can be sexist, on purpose or not, if they do something that is sexist (like discriminating against women, for example ascribing an often stereotyped personality to women as a whole -- regardless of intent, is sexist). One doesn't have to create intended harm to create that harm regardless and will likely be called harmful for causing that harm, again if it's intended or not. 

And Bionicle has a lot of unintended sexism, but it's still there since it's treating female characters differently than how male characters are treated (like, confined to one village at the start, only 1 out of 6 in teams released, most female characters share same/similar personalities, etc... Like, I doubt whoever came up with those ideas was all "let's malign female fans" but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, or change the nature of those decisions). 

I don't see the hype behind Destiny.

It just seems like an over glorified MMO.

ehhhh it's not really what a glorified MMO would be, though. It's a MMO shooter and there's not really a ton of those around ( i can only think of Destiny and Defiance, and Defiance was kinda terrible), so when one done like this comes about it gets hyped and talked about (like, it's not part of an older genre of games that have many entries under their name that are well-known, well-played and created/recreated ideas that became a core to the genre over time and isn't a new entry in that genre that holds itself up as "revolutionary" or "will put this most famous monster game down" with a bunch of fans claiming it has no faults and will be the best thing since sliced bread... like a lot of MMORPG's do). 

it's just different, which is what seems to draw a lot of people to it (that and it's done by Bungie, who created the popular Halo series and other series, so there's some expectations there)

tbh im not terribly interested in it -- i'm not big on shooters in general anymore (and the colors seem kind of drab, unless i just saw the wrong images -- i liked Halo a bit more 'cuz it was visually brighter and more vibrant and comparatively it had a decent story).

But i might get it eventually, though it sorta depends if it takes enough steps away from the overdone FPS theme (gritty broody dudes doing gritty dirty things in gritty and dark and stale environments complete with a terrible story/backstory)

but i mean like if they make a hot pink costume complete with a gun that fires rainbow lasers, yeah I'd prolly buy it just for that (re: reasons I bought GW2, even though I never did get The Dreamer). and also 'cuz then i can bring back my halo MP-character (giant pink Spartan with a giant heart on their armor). 

kewa

for first set (not like, Mctoran 'cuz i got one of those before after a soccer game when i was tiny) it was like... i think my family and i spent the day at the Mall of America? we used to live literally like forty minutes away from it, and i loved the aquarium (i vaguely remember petting the sea pancakes [manta-rays]) so we were spending a lot of time there and after we went to... one of the stores, i forget whcih one it was??? but it had a few rows of the Bionicle sets (like they were brand new and stuff, so there were a lot sold out already) and it was basically just tons of Onuas and Galis. 

almost got Onua there, but dropped one of the canisters and it only had a mask and two claws and i remember thinking "that's lame" and not "someone shoplifted this can in particular" but then again iw as like what, six? so i got Gali instead, i also liked the whole water theme she had going and the kaukau was one of my favorite masks (i really liked the translucentness). 

it took me five hours to put her together cuz like what are ball joints and why do they hurt so much)

hello there hope you have fun on these here forums o/

If they keep to the original story and make the new Bionicle a continuation of the old, I'm wondering how they're going to handle all of the plot points that were left unfinished when the serials ended. There's a long list of conflicts that need resolving: surviving Skakdi warlords, any remaining Visorak, the Baterra, Marendar, the Element Lords, the Skrall Remnant, the Shadowed One, the remaining Barraki and their respective armies, Velika, and the Golden Being.

 

There's probably some I've forgotten, but that's still a lot right there.

tbh the old story is so super long and convoluted and full of so many side-events and side-plots and so overloaded with characters (and so over-saturated with every little detail canonized by a small community) to the point where i honestly hope they just scrap it and start anew rather than alienating new fans with like "these references the characters make, who they are, etc.. were detailed over these other ten years get cracking."

why am i imagining a flux capacitor going on rad adventures 

sorta just realized this site is like two years younger than my sister

spooky

she looks downright awesome, love everything about it (and digging the shoulder armor design, hope they don't flap around otherwise though )

A friend's older brother showed me in 2001/2ish, I think it was BZCommunity at the time? Since I was so young and didn't understand message boards, and wasn't allowed to join things online back then, I just lurked.

isn't that there the blue rahkshi as depicted in one of them there comics

I know not what to Google. If it's so easily found, humor one unenlightened with a link, a keyword, something.

 

As for the existence of gender, I was never arguing that, in the first place. I'm not really arguing anything, I'm just getting to these questions to see if here, I will finally find a person to answer them.

 

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I googled "Gender identity and expression" first ten or so results was one from the APA here. 

There's some terminology I'm not too fond of there, but after reading the relevant sections I felt it decent enough (And since it's from the American Psychological Association, since if I pulled something from GLAAD or the like I'm sure you would've claimed it an unfit source). 

It is also a few years old, so there might be something that uses better terminology that's a bit more recent (though I didn't see anything). 

But that's my last post on this particular tangent, as it really isn't related to the topic at hand (and I kind of regret not taking this to PM [sorry Mak/Wind and other forum staff!]).

 

because there's more to identity than reproductive organs.

 

-Tyler

 

Don't leave a job half-finished. Do tell me what, please. Skipping anything that shouldn't change with one's gender, obviously.

 

-

 

You're sort of derailing the topic at this point, it's a really easy answer to find by simply doing some research and your argument holds no water here since gender objectively exists in the Bionicle universe. 

(And plenty of people have already answered this for you, anyway)

 

What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

 

the pronouns used to refer to them; ownership or absence of specific organs does not define who is what gender.

 

So, their gender is defined by which pronoun is used to refer to them, and which pronoun is used to refer to them is, presumably, determined by which gender they are.

 

 

-

 

gender is what the character expresses themself as (in extension human beings, though i am keeping this Bionicle related) -- what pronouns they prefer to use, how they prefer others to see them. (Bionicle characters don't have reproductive organs either way so i seriously fail to see what point you're trying to make, if one at all)

but yeah, that bit of condescension there's doing wonders. 

What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

the pronouns used to refer to them; ownership or absence of specific organs does not define who is what gender.

edit: and canonically males and females exist in the bionicle universe regardless, so i dont see much of a point here (though i wouldn't mind seeing characters that don't adhere to that binary honestly, but i sadly doubt it'd really happen :/)

 

 

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.

 

I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

 

The problem with that is that Greg, through his own admission, does not plan ahead; he made up the serials as he went, with no plans of where they were going.

 

I never got the impression that Greg was a bad person, just a poor writer - espcially when it came to structure. Unless he's secretly a misogynist (and I have no reason to believe he is; the gender ratio was nothing more than a marketing decision), I really couldn't see him using his own little soapbox to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about his motives, but I like to assume the best about people.

 

tbh i would doubt he intended to do so, but that it was an unintended consequence of poor writing.