Archon~

I'm a huge pro-fan-canon advocate, but I don't think this should be known, especially since Toa use different tools now and then.

The whole point of most toys is to give kids something to play with, not use them to hammer our views into seven-year-olds. :I

Honestly, if I wasn't so annoyed with Wally's response, my wirds would be much more civil I guess I'm sorry?

Anyway, the poster above explains my feelings on the issue with a more calm standpoint.

 

With that, peace I'm out. Wanna debate gender equality systems? PM me please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

especially with the overly feminized society we're approaching to today.

this sentence is so ridiculous and untrue I had to single it out so I and other members could laugh uproariously at it.

 

Anyway, your whole point this entire topic has been "kids shouldn't know about social issues so we should stop debating poor gender decisions to protect them from it" so I'm not really sure it warrants the end of this line of discussion. Yes, it's a line that is mostly aimed at young boys. But if all you toss at young boys is lines that primarily have boy characters (and especially go as egregious as to have solely male characters or even primarily male populations) then that's what young boys will expect and thus it forms a self-fulfilling prophecy of marketing dynamics.

Wow you're one pretentious gal. If you really want to debate how society is slowly turning into fem-centric feel free to PM me about it I don't want to argue with you on this haywire topic, especially with the flamatory diction I've noticed you like to use. So yeah, feel free to dive into my DMs.

 

On the other hand, yes it's a positive feedback effect for marketing, but it happens in girl toylines (MLp, Barbie, new Lego Friends theme) as well and I don't see you barking up that tree advocating that it needs more male characters. And frankly, as this positive feedback loop will keep building, I DOUBT that Lego will ever change their production standards, no matter how much you wish it into being. So feel free to argue why something should, or shouldn't be, but know in the back of your mind why it won't be.

get a load of this marketing genius. :v

 

girl-populated things don't need more male characters because the overdose of male characters from literally everytihng else is already poisoning the air like the dreaded Jörmungandr on it's way to end life as we know it.

 

meanwhile boy-oriented, male populated. "mainstream media" could certainly use a heavy dose of vitamin-positive-female-reinforcement to dispell the horror that is internalized male-centricism.

It's incredibly sexist of you to be applying this double standard. Girl oriented themes don't need male characters, but boy oriented themes need more girls, because of some idea that mainstream media is more male-centric? I think you're just chosing to see what you want and ignoring the fact that TLC exists. If that's not female- overpopulated mainstream media, I don't know what is. My point is let the creators of their shows, toys, games and art focus on whatever sex they want if they have a preference and stop trying to pursue your own agenda.

 

especially with the overly feminized society we're approaching to today.

 

this sentence is so ridiculous and untrue I had to single it out so I and other members could laugh uproariously at it.

 

Anyway, your whole point this entire topic has been "kids shouldn't know about social issues so we should stop debating poor gender decisions to protect them from it" so I'm not really sure it warrants the end of this line of discussion. Yes, it's a line that is mostly aimed at young boys. But if all you toss at young boys is lines that primarily have boy characters (and especially go as egregious as to have solely male characters or even primarily male populations) then that's what young boys will expect and thus it forms a self-fulfilling prophecy of marketing dynamics.

 

Wow you're one pretentious gal. If you really want to debate how society is slowly turning into fem-centric feel free to PM me about it I don't want to argue with you on this haywire topic, especially with the flamatory diction I've noticed you like to use. So yeah, feel free to dive into my DMs.

 

On the other hand, yes it's a positive feedback effect for marketing, but it happens in girl toylines (MLp, Barbie, new Lego Friends theme) as well and I don't see you barking up that tree advocating that it needs more male characters. And frankly, as this positive feedback loop will keep building, I DOUBT that Lego will ever change their production standards, no matter how much you wish it into being. So feel free to argue why something should, or shouldn't be, but know in the back of your mind why it won't be.

How are accusations of patriarchy still a thing in this topic? I thought we were past that.

 

And honestly, I still can't believe how dense some of my fellow members are on here. What part of toyline intended for boys don't you get here? It's a smart move for LEGO to give them characters that they can relate to, especially with the overly feminized society we're approaching to today.

I doubt Bionicle will release a wave of female sets, count on 1-2 female per wave, the most.

 

And honestly, if you feel so strongly about all this "patriarchy is evil" stuff then go argue it on other parts of the internet, as I'm sure there are plenty places for that at this time, and not get your frustrations out on a children's toyline. Let the kids have it; don't ruin it for them before the sets are even released.

 

Also, to those who have not seen my more detailed explainations regarding the issue, look to the previous pages where I have stated my opposition and ratification strongly and clearly.

I think it's probably worth posting Greg's opinion on the matter.

 

The way I look at it is that it could work on the KD, and he simply did not use it. In any battle, especially in comics, the hero might four or five ways they could subdue the villain. They don't use the same one every time. If Kualus was in the middle of a real melee, with destruction all around, he may not have been able to focus sufficiently to use the mask correctly. He may not have wanted to risk being distracted and the KD suddenly "coming to" and attacking his team.

I see nothing anywhere to indicate the mask would not work on the KD, I think it was a case that Kualus chose not to use it or simply thought doing something else would be more effective. I think you can look at the masks worn by the Nuva and see plenty of instances where they could have used their powers to deal with a situation, but didn't ... in the same way that there are instances where Superman could use his strength to win a battle, but has used heat vision or super breath instead.

 

Six Toa against two enormous Rahi when it previously took eleven of them for one? I'm... skeptical that Kualus would simply choose NOT to use his mask power, when it's very clearly the most effective tool he could have, but I guess it'll boil down to a case of "what works for the story".

 

That said, wouldn't the opposite also apply? Especially for support characters (like the Toa of Green, although apparently not him anymore), who are busy focused on the non-combat aspects, they perhaps wouldn't have the opportunity to use their masks, but it wouldn't mean they didn't have it; again, a direction for the story, if not the only one available.

 

That is a good point, however one should keep in mind that both of these Rahi were probably well exhausted and tired from fighting each other (and avoiding becoming mountain food), and that maybe a team of 6 experienced elite Toa would have been just enough to finish off the job? Maybe both of the Rahi were so hyper-focused on each other that the MoRC couldn't even get to them if Kualus attempted to use it? Really, there are so many hypotheticals, but Greg seems to have stated his, and I think we should respect that, and point out the reasons why we think the MoRC wouldn't have worked. I've listed a few, and so have you, Dorek.

I never really minded it being Naho's, but since that's not in the books...

 

The poetic nature of it remaining unknown is really too appealing to want to vote right now.

 

~|ET|~

The only problem I see with this is that is seems that we'll find out all the Kanohi Mangai soon, so we just want to make sure not to leave this intiguing mask behind. :/

 

 

 

Given all that, it shouldn't be hard to see why I'm right that (within reason), allowing people to have things like the Toa Mangai established in canon, and those who happen not to like that version should "ignore" it and headcanon it differently, is the best solution. Note that this applies to some extent with all canon in any story!

 

Make sense?

ET has pointed out the problem with this reasoning several times and it doesn't seem to have stuck, so maybe an actual example will help to demonstrate why this is far more easily said than done. You can tell people to "ignore [the aspects they don't like]" all you want, but that does not work when you have the same people pushing for all of these canonizations simultaneously correcting other fans' interpretations as if they are wrong. And speaking as a role-player, writer, and MOCer, I can tell you that it happens a lot, and there is no logical way to conclude that adding in more details like the Mangai's masks and tools is going to make it happen any less or that it'll be any easier to just "ignore" those details--it can only exacerbate the problem since there'll be more and more details for fact-purists to "correct."

I think that this one example of a certain, generally overzealous member (which still blows my mind but whatever), doing something that is unacceptable should not be taken harshly and applied to the rest of the community of fans who would like to know such little details. Boidoh is... an outlier. For lack of a better term.

 

Most of us, such as myself, do not want to bother anyone in the art department with these little details or stunt anyones creativity, I will assure you of that. I personally believe that if you want to present Tahu as wearing a Kanohi Jultin in one of your shorts stories, well go ahead! ###### what is or isn't canon, if it's your art you have ultimate control, and that's just the way I see it.

I really don't think that these canonizations should affect anyone's art at all, and if any members scrutinize said art due to what is canon, then I believe certain action should be taken to assure that said member does not repeat something like that again.

I agree it wasn't necessarily the best example, but it was fairy convenient to use since I happened upon it earlier. And I don't mean to imply that everyone who is for canonizations is like that--not by a long shot--so I apologize if my wording came off that way.

Ahh, I see glad we're on the same page ther.

 

But the fact does remain that these canonizations have more of a negative impact on the imagination-inclined side of the fandom than a lack of canonizations has on the fact-based side. Leave a blank space blank and a given fan's interpretation is just as valid as anyone else's--there is no room for someone to come in and tell that person that their interpretation is "wrong and this is what the canon actually shows." When something like the Mangai's masks and tools suddenly become set in stone, you now have that issue. Not everyone will do it, and not everyone will feel that their stories are invalidated now that there's a canon description, but the fact that it happens at all is a problem that cannot be fixed or helped by more of these out-of-the-blue additions, only worsened.

I think it can also have a really positive impact, perhaps if some artists wanted to represent the character as he/she is in the actual story. Know what I mean? And again, if there even is room for snobby members to come in and say "hurr durr it's not canon" then that's a problem within the individual members themselves, and should be treated as such. I don't think anyone should feel that their stories are "invalited", because it's their own universe after all! Also, correct me if I'm wrong I don't spend too much time in the Library section, is the population of people who would be hurt even considerably large or no? Actual question haha

 

bonesiii keeps on saying that people can stick to their headcanons, and that's all well and good, but the same exact thing can be told to many of the people wanting to canonize little details like the Mangai's masks and tools. All things considered, it's fairer to the fanbase as a whole to keep those details unspecified--at least then no one can lord their interpretation over anyone else if it happens to match with what is officially decided, or obnoxiously correct other people who personally decide on something different.

See that's the thing with you imaginative types: you have a gnarly enough of an imagination for headcanons. I honestly envy you, because as a person who can't come up with good headcanons unless discussed throughoutly with other members, I don't really have anything to headcanon, thus leading me to seek for a canon explaination to facts. And again, if people seriously bully other members over what's canon or canonize things for fame or lordship, then they really meed to reconsider their motives and if they're on the right forum. I can't personally guarantee to punish those people in anyway since I don't have thoe privelagea, but I can guarantee that I will keep my fellow members in check and hold them accountable for their words. Again, I'm sorry to any artists if these minor canonizations are messing with your art, and I invite you to join us when the new polling practices are established. Expect that topic to be up Wednesday.

I still think the problem of wether or not this Kakama was the "normal" mask of a Toa should have been adressed before launching that poll. And that's a problem I brought up before the poll was launched.

 

In BA8, chapter 4, it is shown that great masks were forged for the Toa Metru even before they came into being, so that's highly probable the Toa Mangai had some spare masks.

 

On a side note, I don't think it was ever stated if Suva were often used - the question never seems to have come up in the old OGD. We didn't see them being often used, that's not the same thing: most of the existing Toa were never seen.

I think that dealing with potential secondary masks is getting out of hand and isn't appropriate for minor characters. I think it should just be assumed that they had one primary mask, or at least that what we're voting on is the primary mask.

 

I'm all for canonizations but this is too much.

 

Given all that, it shouldn't be hard to see why I'm right that (within reason), allowing people to have things like the Toa Mangai established in canon, and those who happen not to like that version should "ignore" it and headcanon it differently, is the best solution. Note that this applies to some extent with all canon in any story!

Make sense?

ET has pointed out the problem with this reasoning several times and it doesn't seem to have stuck, so maybe an actual example will help to demonstrate why this is far more easily said than done. You can tell people to "ignore [the aspects they don't like]" all you want, but that does not work when you have the same people pushing for all of these canonizations simultaneously correcting other fans' interpretations as if they are wrong. And speaking as a role-player, writer, and MOCer, I can tell you that it happens a lot, and there is no logical way to conclude that adding in more details like the Mangai's masks and tools is going to make it happen any less or that it'll be any easier to just "ignore" those details--it can only exacerbate the problem since there'll be more and more details for fact-purists to "correct."

 

I think that this one example of a certain, generally overzealous member (which still blows my mind but whatever), doing something that is unacceptable should not be taken harshly and applied to the rest of the community of fans who would like to know such little details. Boidoh is... an outlier. For lack of a better term.

 

Most of us, such as myself, do not want to bother anyone in the art department with these little details or stunt anyones creativity, I will assure you of that. I personally believe that if you want to present Tahu as wearing a Kanohi Jultin in one of your shorts stories, well go ahead! what is or isn't canon, if it's your art you have ultimate control, and that's just the way I see it.

I really don't think that these canonizations should affect anyone's art at all, and if any members scrutinize said art due to what is canon, then I believe certain action should be taken to assure that said member does not repeat something like that again.

I've laid out most of my points elsewhere. In DiD, the Toa Hagah battle against two enormous Rahi, one of them being the Kanohi Dragon, and defeat them without the apparent use of the Mask of Rahi Control. So it wouldn't necessarily have an effect on the outcome of the battle with the Toa Mangai.

 

However, on the flip-side, there's clearly some very different battle conditions (why did it take the Hagah only a few days vs a whole month for the Mangai?), so it's hard to draw a perfect analogy. But I think it's applicable enough, especially since the Mangai were said to have assembled specifically to deal with the Dragon; the Hagah didn't really have the luxury of knowing which mask was most effective since they were literally the only ones for the job, but you'd think the Mangai would try and pick applicable powers (since, y'know, they got FOUR Toa of Ice!).

To add to the difficulty of the analogy, you could argue that the Toa Hagah were quicker due to the fact that they were an elite team that has been together for a looong time, while the Mangai (seemingly) just came together and were probably fairly inexperienced with working with each other?

 

I think of it like this: Rahi with a stronger willpower can resist total control, but they would still notice the effects. The mask doesn't go, "Oh, this Rahi's too strong. Better quit now." No, if you try to exert control, it has to turn its attention towards resisting, meaning while the Toa may not be able to command its actions, they can still distract it enough to allow the other Toa to subdue it. 

Pretty simple, really.

That actually makes sense, on more mentally powerful Rahi it's more of an annoyance, or sort of "buzzing sound inside of head", rather than actually controling them.

Awkward, I just made a topic that deals with the Kanohi Dragon vs Mask of Rahi Control issue.

Since we would be discussing that in this topic, along with the polls, which have their own topics, doesn't that make this one a.... 4-way double?

I have seen in many of the Kanohi canonization topics arguments for and against the Mask of Rahi Control to be included in the list for potential Kanohi.

 

As suggested by bonesiii here, in this topic we will discuss and come up with an argument that we can present to Greg Farshtey on LMB.

 

I also want to include some quick-links from BS01 for people that want to be a part of this debate:

• Kanohi Dragon
• Mask of Rahi Control
• Dwellers In Darkness
• Kualus

 

I personally think it would be fine that one of them has the mask, since it's described to work better on insects and that some Rahi have the willpower to resist control, evidence of this seems to be shown in Dwellers In Darkness, since there's no mention of Kualus using the mask during the Godzilla Kanohi Dragon & Tahtorak situation.

 

Happy debating!

Wow, keeping that in mind it even makes more sense for the Onu-Toa to be the one with the mask, since he needed to seal up the gate somehow, and I assume Earth powers would prove usefull in this respect.

I just want to point out that in the case of one of the Ko-Toa not winning the Kakama Poll, we might have a problem becase some member's votes will basically be thrown out, since Greg said that none of the Toa would have same masks.

 

I'm not zealously saying that we should redo the whole thing again, even though I think that would be best, however I do think the Kakama poll should have been done first and this just shows that, again, these things have been poorly organized and I preach that the polls of the future are made with more thought and less spite.

 

 

I think Kodan should be put in this poll as well... I mean honestly, he was sent out with 2 of the Toa and I think it would be WAY more awesome if he was the one who's mask was left behind.

 

With that, I say you restart the poll and add Kodan in the option. After asking the Big Man of course.

No, don't. Determining that the mask was from Kodan would completely undercut the message of the scene. The Shadowed One's entire little speech is based on the assumption that the mask belonged to a Toa of old, and learning that it didn't would make a previously poignant scene look pointless and more than a little silly.

Ahh I see. Well my apologies I wasn't 100% sure on exactly how the scene with that mask went.

 

Well Toa of Earth for me then!

(I'm not counting combiner sets that weren't sold as a set themselves, nor am I counting promotional sets.)

 

This si ahrd to put in order, but roughly speaking, starting from worst going to less bad things.

 

 

Umbra, a gross colour scheme, awkward build didn't really look imposing or wise or feel like he had any personality or anything, & generally just looked like an ugly set with no soul. The no soul bit could have worked brilliantly from a story perspective, but in the story he wasn't really that interesting either, so there was practically no incentive to buy him at all...

 

Turaga Dume and Nivawk, was a truly terrible set, the best thing I can say about it is that it has a good pieces per dollar... ^{(also bad because it gave the impression that Bionicle sets can't risk being too technic heavy, were I think Nidhiki shows that it can work wonderfully)}

 

Gali Mistika, Onua Mistika & Tahu Mistika, all three of them looked very poor, I didn't particularly like the Toa (Nuva) Phantoka

 

Basically all of the 2008 Matoran, useless chunky pieces. The Shadow Matoran conveyed the feeling well, but they still had the same bad central body piece & the limbs still weren't great. Radiak & Vican can probably be exempted because the former at least had soem differant pieces, & the latter was alright price wise & cam with Mutran who I thought was alright ^{(I didn't mind Chirox either)}.

 

Most thing in 2009. Can't look at properly, makes me weep.

 

Honestly I think the Piraka, the Toa Inika, & the Toa Mahri, were all horrendous sets all for the same sort of reasons. ^{The Vahki & Visorak weren't great, but I don't think they were horrible, the Toa Hordika looked cool and had nice useful pieces, the Toa Metru were alright, although Vakama & Onewa were very bland and were on the worse side of things.}

 

Makuta Icarax, looks very awkward, silly weapons, & it looks like a patchwork, without a consistent feel to it; the Kraahkan looks very out of place as the design is out of character compared to every other group of pieces used.

 

Brutaka was also very meh in my eyes, & for anyone that saw how much they asked for him in Australia... He certainly looked impossing but he like Keetongu just looks like a bright blog; although Keetongu had a good selection of pieces, Brutaka had cool aspects but other than his weapon and claws, there weren't any pieces I really wanted; if i owned less Bionicle sets at that point &/or I could buy form elsewhere I may have got him, but honestly he didn't look great to me, & didn't really offer much piece wise compared to other sets scaling for price etc.

 

Kongu Mahri, warped body, boring mask.

 

Krika, looks far too weak and spindly all over.

 

2008 Takanuva, Toa Ignika, both just looked wrong... smooth or technic-y inconsistent, gold, colour scheme is..? who thought those masks looked not-horrible?

 

All of the Bohrok-Kal, simply because six clone-y sets were now twelve; but if the Bohrok weren't ever released they would have been fine, a bit too much silver for my tastes (& I would rather be able to see the Krana than the decal); but if the Bohrok-Kal were released before the Bohrok, I would still prefer the Bohrok ^{(although Lehvak is probably on the same level as Levak-Kal for me)}.

 

Maxilos and Spinax, Maxilos has the same issues as Hydraxon, but it's worse becauseit means I can't by Spinax by itself which was a cool set, but not cool enough to justify the extra $ wasted buying Maxilos as well.

 

Bitil, what did they do to you?

 

Hydraxon, so bland it's almost painful. & what went wrong with that Mask? & why the 'wings'?

Are there any sets that you do like? /sarcasticjoke

They were all awful unposeable shrimps.

 

Tahu got my vote only because of the 2 Hau with axels.

I had nothing to do with any Fikou related weaponry. I worded it as Fikou weapon because I think he suggested either a Fikou Staff or Mace, so I generalized it as a Fikou weapon.

 

As I have a P.h.D in Fikou, I will bless the world with a wonderful description. Give me some time.

 

 

Fikou Mace

 

I'll just say the Fikou Weapon is a Fikou Mace, since I believe someone else seconded the Mace idea.

 

This weapon can be very unique and can adpot some esoteric Fikou information that would otherwise be pointless. This is the best place to implement those. What I suggest for the Fikou Mace to be is a mace, of course, that encompasses the beauty and wonder, yet the ferociety and adaptability of the Fikou. There are many sub-species of Fikou with each having been adapted to a specific environment. What I suggest is to have the Fikou weapon adaptable. The Fikou Mace could change colour and gain a little extra ability depending on location. On land it would be black, as the black Fikou have adapted to underground regions AS WELL as rocky regions, so I assume above ground is rocky. In the desert it would be tan/brown, water would be blue, and so on. It would be more than just a colour change though. The adaptable mace would allow the Toa Mangai of the Green to easily channel his elemental energies to create plants that grow in the area that the mace has adapted to. It would also have a stinger-tail-like thing at the top that would pack some more punch.

 

It would look like a mace, but Fikou designed. I suppose it can also have an additional power where if the Toa was to use additional elemental energies to power it up, its design would change to that of a Fikou-Nui, becoming larger and more powerful, and would be able to be used offensively and defensively.

Hahaha I honestly can't tell if you're serious... I mean, sure go ahead and add Fikou Mace to the polls, but I'll be surprised if it gets more than 2-3 votes.

ANYWAY, I HIGHLY suggest that in the poll one question asked:

1. Do you want the weapon to be known?

 

2. What do you want the weapon to be?

 

So yeah just thought I should restate that and keep it fresh. I think this should be done for all polls but I guess someone still refuses to do that...

I doubt the dust from the desert would get into the upper atmosphere. Also, the desert might actually make things clearer - less water = less water vapor in the atmosphere to obscure the fight.

 

It's possible that the Agori simply have better eyesight then us, or the GBs enhanced it. But even if you saw a blurry picture of two giant legs and an arm and heard a giant robot voice, I'd think you would get the picture rather quickly.

Especially if one of them came crashing down. I say you'd know the shape rather well.

I think Kodan should be put in this poll as well... I mean honestly, he was sent out with 2 of the Toa and I think it would be WAY more awesome if he was the one who's mask was left behind.

 

With that, I say you restart the poll and add Kodan in the option. After asking the Big Man of course. EDIT: Disregard and look at the 2 posts bellow this one.

 

If that's not possible, I think an Onu-Toa (what I picked currently) would be cool with a Kakama mainly due to the fast tunneler idea. I think that would be very useful for the Dark Hunter War.

 

And Sumiki, I actually agree, maybe that option should be there. Maybe that Kanohi belonged to an unknown Toa from the war maybe? If it was confirmed to be from one of the Mangai, then I agree it should be known, especially aince the poll I'm running about Kanohi canonizations seems to be in favor for canonizing, even if by a slight margin. Does anyone have an idea how we can present the poll to the broader spectrum of BZP? I see yall have colored text names help me out here.

I still find it strange that this time around the biomechs reproduce.

 

 

pun intended.

 

Exactly. When the first episode of the BIONICLE stuff comes out, S&T will be flooded with stuff about Gen 2. How long do we have until BIONICLE's official re-launch? 23 days? Can't we enjoy these final moments? Why do they have to be spent arguing?

 

final moments? what is this, a funeral? Is Bionicle dead?

 

I meannnn yes? I like to put it this way: it's on life support. We know it would probably be better off dead but we are so attached to this person we can't let them go. *cue my heart will go on*

I liked the Toa of Plantlife. I think a little more blue on him would have worked better to suit the natural armor better and make the distinction between Toa of Air, but nonetheless, I think it looks good! I'm a fan of the brown ornament you gave him, really inspires a foresty vibe.

Jetrax was awesome, plus it could be made into a bike? Yeah, count me in!