Making Sense Of The Nonsense Ending Of Bionicle.

[The Captain]

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and have had the same gripes since early 2010. My head canon ended where 2008 ended - anything past that was like EU via Lego.2001 - 2008 Bionicle = Star Wars Episode IV - VI (maybe Episodes 1-3)2009-2010 Bionicle = Star Wars EU2010 was an unbelievable mess and kind of an insult to the seven years of fantastic and above-average story telling, especially for a toy brand.I know a lot of it was last-minute decisions and minimal planning, but for a story that prided itself on intricacy and detail, everything just went out the window as soon as 2008 ended.

[fishers64]

2010 was an unbelievable mess and kind of an insult to the seven years of fantastic and above-average story telling, especially for a toy brand.I know a lot of it was last-minute decisions and minimal planning, but for a story that prided itself on intricacy and detail, everything just went out the window as soon as 2008 ended.

That's because they were trying to get away from all that complexity and get to something with less detail. The backstory and detail was getting too much for younger kids to get. Thaf's what they were trying to do. I won't say that that was the best thing, because it didn't work and Bionicle was canceled.

[bonesiii]

The Captain, it's good for you to have your personal dislike of the later years -- I kinda agree personally too in fact -- but it wasn't meant by LEGO as an insult, okay? They were having (quite understandable) trouble getting newer fans (who, remember, drive LEGO's financial health) to get into Bionicle. So as fishers says, it's basically something they were forced to do.Also, I don't think the end was anything close to a major mess. It was a little sloppy, but considering it was being ended sooner than planned, they actually did a wonderful job of it IMO. And the giant fight and such was pretty cool, no? (Maybe you personally disagree, though, and that's fine. Everybody has their own tastes. )

[The Captain]

The Captain, it's good for you to have your personal dislike of the later years -- I kinda agree personally too in fact -- but it wasn't meant by LEGO as an insult, okay? They were having (quite understandable) trouble getting newer fans (who, remember, drive LEGO's financial health) to get into Bionicle. So as fishers says, it's basically something they were forced to do.Also, I don't think the end was anything close to a major mess. It was a little sloppy, but considering it was being ended sooner than planned, they actually did a wonderful job of it IMO. And the giant fight and such was pretty cool, no? (Maybe you personally disagree, though, and that's fine. Everybody has their own tastes. )

I will clarify - I do not think Lego was insulting us, nor do I think they intended too. However, I feel that after the reboot in 2009, (whether they knew that had a year left or not), I feel that a lot of the logic behind the series had left. I understand the need to simplify the series for newcomers (which ironically wasn't needed, or perhaps killed the franchise because it was cancelled the next year), but simplifying does not equate to dumbing down, and it certainly felt dumbed down. The setting and environment weren't very believable or original (the over-use of Latin was a bit corny too, but that's a bit nitpicky), and the laws of physics that applied to a lot of the pre-2009 years (even the elements followed certain common rules) seemed to just fade out of existence as soon as cancelation was imminent.It was like, they knew what would be the coolest idea (giant robot fight), but they didn't really think about the repercussions and just threw it together. Even Greg didn't seem that thrilled about it. The repercussions were very clearly explained in this topic.I find the insult in the abandonment of intellect present in the story, not the simplification of the narrative. An unfortunate side-effect of cancelation and rushed timetables, but avoidable, I think, and regrettable.

[bonesiii]

Well, I don't think there was an abandonment of the thought behind most of it (although Tuma being so wimpy in TLR comes to mind lol), for reasons I gave in my posts here. I think it's more that, like it had done for a long time, Bionicle requires thought to properly understand it. You're talking about implications; are you including earthquakes, for example? I can see how at first glance, that can seem like LEGO didn't think it through, but as fans we can think a little and realize there probably had to be systems built in to dampen those effects.I dunno if this is the sort of thing you are referring to, just an example / question. :)Also, apparently it was that the simplification didn't work enough, so didn't save it. It wasn't that the simplification caused its early end; the problems that brought the end were already known before the simplification. Which is why they did that. (Again, basically the new fans wanted "new factor", not just a simpler story. They wanted a whole new story, franchise name, etc.)

[Aanchir]

As for entering the body to wreak havoc on it, it would be a bit silly to expect that entering through the feet you could reach vital organs quickly enough-- if not for the fact that this sort of intercontinental travel is part of the reason the Mata Nui robot has its chute system. Granted, in 2006 when the Toa Nuva and later Jaller's group of Matoran had to get from Metru Nui to Voya Nui, the chute system was damaged and couldn't get them much farther than Karzahni-- the robot's shoulder area. But this could have been the equivalent of a neck injury (which would explain Mata Nui's potentially-fatal coma) and not a sign that the chute system further down the robot's body was badly damaged. Additionally, the Staff of Artakha, mother of all plot devices, had been used in late 2007 to repair all of the Matoran Universe's major injuries. At that point, getting between continents of the Matoran Universe would have probably been an incredibly quick and easy task.

There's a chute system in the Mata Nui robot beyond Metru Nui? That surprises me that you would suggest that, seeing as in further years that Dark Hunters and Makuta and others traveled by boat (And some of this was before the Great Cataclysm *points to Legacy of Evil*). I'm thinking that they wouldn't bother doing so if they could just hop in a chute. Also, there is no mention of chute wreckage beyond Metru Nui, or any characters in the lower regions using them. I think chutes are unique to the Metru Nui area.

I think most beings didn't know about the chutes, but I think some of the underwater chutes did go from Metru Nui to other islands and maybe the northern continent. The Visorak were said to have come to Metru Nui by those chutes. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they couldn't have gone down to the feet 'cuz they were made by Matoran, but it was stated (if bad memory serves) that no Matoran had been in the legs.

Even if no Matoran lived in or explored the legs of the Great Spirit, the entire robot body had been built with Matoran labor. Assuming that they might have built a chute system there doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me. Especially when you consider that part of the reason the southern parts of the Matoran Universe were not explored was because of dangerous Rahi, and the Matoran Universe would not likely have been fully populated with Rahi at the time of its construction.Perhaps the reason why the southern islands got associated with dangerous Rahi is that, having been completed very early in the Matoran Universe's days and not needing frequent maintenance, those were a largely unpopulated area of the universe where the Brotherhood of Makuta felt free to release their unneeded "experiments". Perhaps some of these "early experiments" were similar to the primordial Rahi that Mavrah later chose to study in Onu-Metru.

[The Captain]

Well, I don't think there was an abandonment of the thought behind most of it (although Tuma being so wimpy in TLR comes to mind lol), for reasons I gave in my posts here. I think it's more that, like it had done for a long time, Bionicle requires thought to properly understand it. You're talking about implications; are you including earthquakes, for example? I can see how at first glance, that can seem like LEGO didn't think it through, but as fans we can think a little and realize there probably had to be systems built in to dampen those effects.I dunno if this is the sort of thing you are referring to, just an example / question. :)Also, apparently it was that the simplification didn't work enough, so didn't save it. It wasn't that the simplification caused its early end; the problems that brought the end were already known before the simplification. Which is why they did that. (Again, basically the new fans wanted "new factor", not just a simpler story. They wanted a whole new story, franchise name, etc.)

Again, I'm speaking about my own opinion, not the logistics of the fall of the franchise. As a fan, I personally thought the end of Bionicle was nonsense, from a narrative perspective, like the originator of the topic. I understand the logistics, and I understand the constraints. That does not mean the disappointment of the last year fades away.I think this topic was meant to get some of that disappointment out as fans, not as a complete ignorance of actual logistic and financial issues of Lego's most beloved franchise. As many pro's as there are to be found in the 2009-2010, I find the cons outweigh and outnumber them too much to be comfortably "okay" with the end. So my head canon ends with 2008.

[fishers64]

@ Aanchir: Even if the Matoran did construct chutes down there, which I find to be an unlikely proposition, they likely would have suffered from lack of maintence and use. They would have likely been forgotten by most MU inhabitants. Further, Gresh did not know about them, so how he could have known how to use one to quickly get to the robot's core is a little sketchy. @ The Captain and bonesiii: I think the "simpfication" is what is responsible for the 40 million foot tall robot. Litte kids ask such questions like "How tall is the robot?" and 40 million is a nice round number as opposed to the numbers I've seen in this topic, something like 27, 172 feet or something. :)As for the ending details, I was ticked off about it myself at first. Most of my complaints centered around the fact that Mata Nui did not get enough character development of a realistic order. We spent 8 years or so developing the character of Makuta Teridax out to be this strong, smart, mega-super bad guy, and he ultimately gets defeated by what feels like a rookie with less combat experiance than Gresh. You have to read into it and step back to realize that Mata Nui is Makuta's real match, that he is just as good, smart, and powerful as Makuta. It's a classic case of "show, not tell"; we were told back in 2001 that this story was about Mata Nui versus Makuta, that Mata Nui was Makuta's equivelent, his match. We are told of Mata Nui's history, his strength and character traits, but we aren't shown them the way we were with Makuta. The story, in this one critical aspect, tried to live up to this promise and fell short, at least on the surface.

[bonesiii]

Even if no Matoran lived in or explored the legs of the Great Spirit, the entire robot body had been built with Matoran labor. Assuming that they might have built a chute system there doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me.

Hm... Good point... Alright, conceded. Unless the chutes were made later (as I had thought, but I guess we don't know that).Well, "assuming" isn't the right word. Theorize, yes. It comes down to when the chutes were built. But it does make more sense that they'd be built early, before the seas covered them.

Again, I'm speaking about my own opinion, not the logistics of the fall of the franchise. As a fan, I personally thought the end of Bionicle was nonsense, from a narrative perspective, like the originator of the topic.

What I'm basically asking is, are there any specifics you still think don't make sense, after considering my and others' answers in here to the points raised by jimmybob, or others he didn't mention, etc.? I do get, though, that our answers in here can't change the fact that you didn't think it made sense when you first saw it. Just curious about the details. ^_^In other words, it's not just a matter of the real-world logistics, IMO. I have seen many people saying certain things don't make story sense, when IMO they really do, and some of them are pretty clear. (Like the quakes thing.) Also, in the vein of LOST, I don't think it's wrong for a story to require more thought to make sense of. LOST would often do things to intentionally confuse, for example, and not everyone likes that, but I love it. And maybe your reaction to that can change. At least in the here and now; obviously we can't change the past. Wouldn't that be good, if we could improve that? :)Another thing I'm driving at is, I really think most of the dislike of the details of the end are probably just redirected frustration with the mere fact that it was ending. Or ending early. Are you certain that wasn't all that it was? Because personally I was fine with it ending, and (probably as a result) I didn't have many issues with how it ended, in the story (and again, I'm not just talking logistics here, but specifically the details in the story).fishers, are you talking about the length of story spotlight time spent developing Mata Nui's character? Because I would say that at least in the later years Mata Nui got some of the best character development. The later years focused on him primarily as the main protagonist, and he faced tough challenges, both psychological and practical, and made hard choices, etc. Where was his character development lacking, in comparison with others in Bionicle like Makuta?Keep in mind the mysterious nature of the story required us not to get to know Mata Nui personally until near the end, so he couldn't get as much spotlight time as the main antagonist. I would argue that once we met him personally after 2008, it was very much shown, not just told. Especially in the comics and the Mata Nui Saga. Edited March 29, 2012 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

Where was his character development lacking, in comparison with others in Bionicle like Makuta?

There wasn't enough of a change. Okay, let's say I have an arena. There are six good guys in the arena, and one principle main antagonist. The good guys are fighting on behalf of the mystical ruler of the universe, who is napping and dying. So the protagonists have to save Mata Nui, ruler of the universe. They have to save him from death, then wake him up, because he just so happens to be the ruler of the universe and they can't live without him. Mata Nui had to be saved. He's weak. He doesn't get the threat coming from his own body. He's stupid. (at least, this was what I thought at the time, ) The Toa are the people in the position of strength, having to save Mata Nui from his own stupidity and weakness. So obviously the Toa would be the people to beat Makuta, in my mind. But after a few easy battles with the Skrall, finding a mystical power source and learning a thing or two about friendship, Mata Nui powers up a robot and takes on the Big Bad himself while the Toa are reduced to using a magic suit to destroy little yellow beasties with sticks.Bionicle's ending was awesome. LOL. Misconception? Sure. (I garner it was because I failed to realize how the giant robot worked with the Matoran being nanotech) But I had trouble seeing after eight years of watching the Toa fight the Makuta, that Mata Nui could beat Makuta after about a year of story. I'm starting to see how that could be possible now - facts are starting to come out of my mind to show me how that's possible, and I am able to place the Toa as Mata Nui's minions fighting Makuta's minions - although there are exceptions to that rule. Oh, and Mata Nui has commanded a giant robot before, so he has zen fighting skills. :)Usually the protagonists you start with beat the antagonists, no? (At least, in a story that isn't a tragedy ) Mata Nui's been there since the beginnning, but he isn't what we see.Not wrong, just a little different. Of course, it took me two years to get this, which goes to show how much depth the ending has. I like depth; it's fun, but sometimes it can be frustrating when you don't get it.

[The Captain]

Even if no Matoran lived in or explored the legs of the Great Spirit, the entire robot body had been built with Matoran labor. Assuming that they might have built a chute system there doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me.

Hm... Good point... Alright, conceded. Unless the chutes were made later (as I had thought, but I guess we don't know that).Well, "assuming" isn't the right word. Theorize, yes. It comes down to when the chutes were built. But it does make more sense that they'd be built early, before the seas covered them.

Again, I'm speaking about my own opinion, not the logistics of the fall of the franchise. As a fan, I personally thought the end of Bionicle was nonsense, from a narrative perspective, like the originator of the topic.

What I'm basically asking is, are there any specifics you still think don't make sense, after considering my and others' answers in here to the points raised by jimmybob, or others he didn't mention, etc.? I do get, though, that our answers in here can't change the fact that you didn't think it made sense when you first saw it. Just curious about the details. ^_^In other words, it's not just a matter of the real-world logistics, IMO. I have seen many people saying certain things don't make story sense, when IMO they really do, and some of them are pretty clear. (Like the quakes thing.) Also, in the vein of LOST, I don't think it's wrong for a story to require more thought to make sense of. LOST would often do things to intentionally confuse, for example, and not everyone likes that, but I love it. And maybe your reaction to that can change. At least in the here and now; obviously we can't change the past. Wouldn't that be good, if we could improve that? :)Another thing I'm driving at is, I really think most of the dislike of the details of the end are probably just redirected frustration with the mere fact that it was ending. Or ending early. Are you certain that wasn't all that it was? Because personally I was fine with it ending, and (probably as a result) I didn't have many issues with how it ended, in the story (and again, I'm not just talking logistics here, but specifically the details in the story).fishers, are you talking about the length of story spotlight time spent developing Mata Nui's character? Because I would say that at least in the later years Mata Nui got some of the best character development. The later years focused on him primarily as the main protagonist, and he faced tough challenges, both psychological and practical, and made hard choices, etc. Where was his character development lacking, in comparison with others in Bionicle like Makuta?Keep in mind the mysterious nature of the story required us not to get to know Mata Nui personally until near the end, so he couldn't get as much spotlight time as the main antagonist. I would argue that once we met him personally after 2008, it was very much shown, not just told. Especially in the comics and the Mata Nui Saga.

First of all, there is no greater LOST fan than I, so I definitely am one to enjoy complexity and confusing stuff worth discussing and figuring out. :PThe ending of Bionicle was really anything to discuss or theorize about. It was definitive and a bit "too perfect." You got your physically impossible giant robot fight, the bad guy died (despite his near invincibility, which I know has been discussed to death already), you got the unification of the planet with magic glue (because gravity fixes broken planets), and all the different cultures merge and live happily ever after with random stuff going on with Greg's abandoned blogs. If you liked it, that's fine. If you didn't, that's fine. I personally didn't like it. I thought it was a very large shift downwards from the quality of years prior. Different tastes and preferences is all. Can't please everyone.But I do agree with the point of this topic, in that, for the most part, without serious assumption and guesswork and retconning, the finale simply doesn't work out when you put numbers and thought to it.

[bonesiii]

You got your physically impossible giant robot fight

What makes it physically impossible to you? If it's the defined sizes, I'm with ya. But other than that, it seems that Bionicle powers should make it quite possible.

the bad guy died (despite his near invincibility, which I know has been discussed to death already)

But we had been told already by that point how Makuta can be (and some had) been killed, and that manner of death was like that times a thousand. To sum up what has been said while discussing it to death ( ) impact spreading him out, impact generating heat to burn, and his mind was in the machines at the time, which were obliterated.

you got the unification of the planet with magic glue (because gravity fixes broken planets)

I had a theory on the old forum about this that I stand by (still linked in my old sig); basically, it's crystal clear IMO that Mata Nui had a reforming power. He had to have had one. It wasn't just gravity, most likely. The story merely said that gravity got them heading on the way in. It didn't say that was all that he did.Granted (as was pointed out earlier in here), the story would have helped itself if it just said so, but then I wouldn't have the fun of theorizing it. LOST lesson again.

and all the different cultures merge and live happily ever after with random stuff going on with Greg's abandoned blogs.

The stories I read after that told about how they didn't live so happily ever after. But then, the main villain was dead, so it does make sense it would be better. That's a happy ending, and a realistic one. Also Mata Nui had already prepared the Agori/Glatorian to get along with the Toa, and thus Matoran, etc. and there's no reason for the Matoran to want to cause trouble about this; they need a place to live now and this is the Agori/Glat's world. I don't see how that doesn't make sense.Again, with bumps along the way, certainly. Also, the fact that the story doesn't define all the bumps doesn't imply you're supposed to conclude there are none. (I imagine species like Skakdi would have major problems getting along; they always have.)Agreed about numbers, though. Mostly, anyways. Edited March 29, 2012 by bonesiii

[The Captain]

When it comes down to it, it's always the numbers that are the issue (4815162342)

[bonesiii]

Alright, then, thanks for clarifying.

[toa kopaka4372]

Where was his character development lacking, in comparison with others in Bionicle like Makuta?

There wasn't enough of a change.Okay, let's say I have an arena. There are six good guys in the arena, and one principle main antagonist. The good guys are fighting on behalf of the mystical ruler of the universe, who is napping and dying. So the protagonists have to save Mata Nui, ruler of the universe. They have to save him from death, then wake him up, because he just so happens to be the ruler of the universe and they can't live without him. Mata Nui had to be saved. He's weak. He doesn't get the threat coming from his own body. He's stupid. (at least, this was what I thought at the time, ) The Toa are the people in the position of strength, having to save Mata Nui from his own stupidity and weakness. So obviously the Toa would be the people to beat Makuta, in my mind.But after a few easy battles with the Skrall, finding a mystical power source and learning a thing or two about friendship, Mata Nui powers up a robot and takes on the Big Bad himself while the Toa are reduced to using a magic suit to destroy little yellow beasties with sticks.Bionicle's ending was awesome. LOL. Misconception? Sure. (I garner it was because I failed to realize how the giant robot worked with the Matoran being nanotech) But I had trouble seeing after eight years of watching the Toa fight the Makuta, that Mata Nui could beat Makuta after about a year of story. I'm starting to see how that could be possible now - facts are starting to come out of my mind to show me how that's possible, and I am able to place the Toa as Mata Nui's minions fighting Makuta's minions - although there are exceptions to that rule. Oh, and Mata Nui has commanded a giant robot before, so he has zen fighting skills. :)Usually the protagonists you start with beat the antagonists, no? (At least, in a story that isn't a tragedy ) Mata Nui's been there since the beginnning, but he isn't what we see.Not wrong, just a little different. Of course, it took me two years to get this, which goes to show how much depth the ending has. I like depth; it's fun, but sometimes it can be frustrating when you don't get it.

I'd just like to add that we were actually given a look into Mata Nui's personality when he totally outsmarted Teridax regarding the Toa Metru. I don't know if you read Time Trap, but in the book it's revealed that Mata Nui knew Makuta would be watching the stars to read the names of the six new Toa so he can interfere with their destiny. Keeping this in mind, Mata Nui changed the stars to show the names of Vhisola, Ahkmou, and the other 4 Matoran. Then he planted the names of the real destined Toa into Makuta's mind, which Makuta planted in Lhikan's mind. Makuta thought he had come up with the names himself and outsmarted Mata Nui, not knowing he was doing exactly what Mata Nui wanted. On top of all that, Makuta never knew he was outsmarted.Pretty neat. As for my opinion on the end, I'm mostly happy with it. The final book was one of the best books in BIONICLE, if just a little short, and I liked the Stars. The main thing I'm bitter about is that BIONICLE didn't get a full year for its ending. We didn't get enough CGI animations. I'm especially bitter we never got real footage of Makuta fighting Mata Nui, that would've been awesome. Also, several books for the final final battle would've been cool; we didn't get to see much action outside of the battle for the Golden Armor. I know it was because of a limited budget, but still.At the end of the day, I just wished 2010 had been a full year, that's all. If it had, I'd have had no complaints. Unfortunately, 2008 was slightly more climatic than 2010, although the scope of 2010's climax was larger, it didn't feel like that due to the aforementioned lack of animated media and length. Also, 2010 felt too close to 2008; there was only a year separating the biggest battles of the BIONICLE story. This made the Bara Magna feel slightly tacked on, after eight years with the MU. The serials that continued the story were sort of remedying this problem, but we saw where that went.Oh, well. I still like the ending, just wish it was longer. I really do like the idea that it took Mata Nui, after all the failed attempts of the Toa, to bring Makuta down.

[fishers64]

I'd just like to add that we were actually given a look into Mata Nui's personality when he totally outsmarted Teridax regarding the Toa Metru. I don't know if you read Time Trap, but in the book it's revealed that Mata Nui knew Makuta would be watching the stars to read the names of the six new Toa so he can interfere with their destiny. Keeping this in mind, Mata Nui changed the stars to show the names of Vhisola, Ahkmou, and the other 4 Matoran. Then he planted the names of the real destined Toa into Makuta's mind, which Makuta planted in Lhikan's mind. Makuta thought he had come up with the names himself and outsmarted Mata Nui, not knowing he was doing exactly what Mata Nui wanted. On top of all that, Makuta never knew he was outsmarted.Pretty neat.

Yes, I read Time Trap. Sadly, it did not put much of a dent in the misconception I had. In fact, that book made it worse because it put Vakama front and center as Makuta's prime adversary, not helping matters at all. CGI robot fight? I don't know about that. Imagination works better than CGI IMO. Though I would not have entirely objected.

[bonesiii]

fishers, somehow I missed your earlier post in reply to my question, sorry about that lol. I can't disagree with most of that. But I would actually agree that it was a character flaw in Mata Nui you could definately call "stupid" to not pay enough attention to what was happening in his body, and I see that as a good thing because it made him a character with flaws who could grow in story -- and did! -- not just a Mary Sue type who was perfect.I see the story of Mata Nui's character development as the classic tale of a stubborn man who refuses to go to the doctor to get a checkup, and learns better, but moved to a massive scale. And along the way, as you say, learned deeper lessons of friendship (that one is almost the theme of all of Bionicle, at least its front-and-center plots).Yes, I do agree it would have been better to have the Toa do it somehow. Or Mata Nui be more central to the obvious plot. I think this was an artifact of LEGO's choice to drag out Bionicle's story over so many years when it could have been told in three to five years. The producers of LOST said once, when the end was announced -- I can't remember the exact wording lol -- but something like they're not delaying now, not just making excuses to continue as was done in LOST's season three, and as a result its last three seasons felt more "on-topic." Likewise, I think Bionicle spent too much time getting into tangents from the main plot arc. If that had been thought through better Mata Nui, Tahu, Kopaka () or Takua/Takanuva could have been used as the central protagonist.But since that wasn't done, I think the best solution is simply to realize that the type of story genre Bionicle actually was made into, even from the start, was one where there would be no central protagonist to the overall story, but many protagonists, and new ones would take over as time went on. That formula was established well before the end, anyways.

[Axilus Prime]

Well, seeing as Great Spirit Robots can control gravity, it's a rather pointless question to ask why they don't mess up gravity with their size.It's already been CLEARLY established that Spherus Magna is MUCH bigger than than earth. And as for the not stepping on things...Mata Nui was used to being a huge robot, and could use the full potential of its sensors. (Which, incidentally, can look at everything in the universe at once. It can probably work outside the body too.) Makuta, however, did step on basically anything he wanted, not even bothering to use his sensors.

[fishers64]

I think this was an artifact of LEGO's choice to drag out Bionicle's story over so many years when it could have been told in three to five years.

Ahem. No. Absolutely not.At the end of 2003, the Toa had just 'awakened' Mata Nui, but if Mata Nui the robot had woken up again right then,he would have killed some of the Matoran and brought about a pretty steep loss of property. And howwould you get the plot twist at the end with Makuta battling Mata Nui, or the restoration of Spherus Magna?I remember Greg giving a specific reason (though I can't remember the topic, ugh) why they went back and told 2004 story after 2003. The nature of the denizens of Mata Nui indicated that they came from a more technical environment, not like the wild nature of Mata Nui.Their nature indicated that they were not native to the area. So they had to "deliver" through and tell us about Metru Nui. At least, they would have to have told us that the denizens came from inside the robot, which would have raised question after question. Jumping from a mystical island to a robot underneath without actually giving us how that fit in terms of the people on Mata Nui would have been disorienting at best. Metru Nui is the explanation.I can't see the line ending in 2005 either. By the time we gone through the Metru Nui arc, we had gone through a ton of detail and raised even more questions. Raise the Giant Robot then and you raise even more questions. We had thrown in the Order and the Dark Hunters by then, not to mention Visorak and Vortixx which brought up even more unexplored lands. We complain about the serials not being resolved now. Imagine the cacophony that would have resulted if those organizations were mentioned and not explored. 2006 and 2007 and 2008 story did just that. They could have condensed the 2006/07 plot (the Mata Nui is dying plot was uneccessary IMO), but it would have been hard to switch directly from 2005 plot to 2008 plot (without disorienting people major league), and any condensation of that plot would likely have been met with the accusations that Lego rushed things. The giant robot was so much bigger than that area of Mata/Metru Nui, and exploration of the rest of the 'bot made the big reveal make a bit more sense.So yeah, I think they were stuck until 2008. I don't think they could have ended it sooner than they did withoutticking off a bunch of old fans.In addition, I remember this topic from the old forums, and this quote:QUOTE(GregF @ Jan 2 2011, 06:50 PM) Well, BIONICLE probably would have ended in 2003 if not for Rahkshi sales -- so let's do a "what if" it did --1) Only one movie2) Virtually no books3) The grand conflict between Mata Nui/the Toa and Makuta ends with ... a kolhii match4) Only one setting for fan fiction -- the island of Mata Nui5) BIONICLE, ending in three years, becomes just one more LEGO line with a limited shelf life, and nothing particularly special as a result. Pretty much ends up inspiring as much comment/cultural impact as the Knights' Kingdom action figures did.6) BZPower ends probably sometime around 2005 or 2006, if not earlier, since there is way less for members to talk about.Sorry, I'm getting tangential, but I don't think they could have logically ended it before they did. People are already, in this topic, talking about the ending being rushed...[Edit: And yes, I do agree with the rest of your post. No argument there.] Edited March 30, 2012 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

fishers, it may help to go to the "Plausible Rumor" topic in LEGO Discussion (the rumor isn't plausible but it's the topic open now where discussion of Bionicle's end and possibility of a return are on-topic), and read my latest few posts for more about what I mean about ending Bionicle sooner. In short I'm talking about if they had known more about what we now know in hindsight about how long Bionicle should have lasted for set sales, and with that knowledge (if they could have had that knowledge), condense the whole story.2003's plot as it was for example I would probably have removed, and possibly ended 2002 by opening the path to Metru Nui, don't do flashbacks but have Mata Nui be revived in 2003, and probably have a finale year in 2004 with the reveal about the giant robot, Makuta takeover, a second robot being found, and giant battle -- possibly stretching to 2005. Then do a whole new line, like Hero Factory. :)I do not mean to just take 2001-2003 story as it was and slap an end onto that. Let's face it, much of what the story spent so much time on was nothing but delays and distractions from the core events of the plot.To an extent I don't mind that. We did get some cool "side stories" out of it. On the other hand, I can attest as a fanfic writer who has commited to a story that mirrors the main plot, through to the 2010 story that it has been hard for me to bring myself to want to tell about the later years after 2002. I feel that the story began to wander aimlessly to some extent after that (I'm solving this by condensing it, in fact ).But prior to the end of 2002, I feel it stayed on-track to the central mystery of the Great Spirit giant. Some of 2006 did too, the end of 2007, parts of 2008, and again parts of the ending years. The whole flashback time was not necessary, we could have just as easily learned about Metru Nui while returning to it, and that arguably would have been more mysterious.Anyways, I guess I'm getting a bit tangential, but yeah; I think in hindsight the end possibly should have come much sooner. If the main plot had stayed on-track about the Great Spirit, and in the present, probably some of the problems people had with the end wouldn't have come up, even ending with a reformation possibly and especially with a giant robot fight.

Edited March 30, 2012 by bonesiii

[The Captain]

Also keep in mind the toys were built before the story, so they had to wait and see what the new theme (underwater, technological, flying, etc) was for that fiscal year and adapt to it. 2010 kinda stunk too because it was just a rehash of older, shrunken themes that couldn't really be played upon due to shrinking sales and the search for a new audience. I think if 2010 had had normal sized, more complex sets, the story might have benefited as well. The STARS sets mirror the end result of 2010 pretty well, if you think about it.The more complex the sets (2004), the more complex the storyline, it usually worked out.

[Exo-Kahgarak]

Sure, Teridax could negate the effect of gravity on Bara Magna... but why would he want to? He could just choose not to null gravity and all of the Bara Magnans (his enemies) get thrown out into space and die.Also, going with my previous figure of a substance (at least) 17.5 thousand million times stronger than human bone and the fact that it takes about 205 million newtons of force per square meter to snap human bone:17.5 thousand million times the strength * 205 million newtons per square meter = 3.5875 thousand million million newtons per square meter for the moon fragment to break through Mata Nui's head. Going with 119,269.487 square kilometers for Mata Nui's head size (length of Mata Nui island * width of Mata Nui island), it would take 428 million million million newtons to get through Mata Nui's head. That's a lot of force.Assuming that Bara Magna had earth-like gravity, the moon would have been accelerating towards it at 9.8 meters per second per second. 428 million million million newtons / 9.8 meters per second per second = at least 43.7 million million million kilograms in the moon fragment that hit Teridax. The comic shows the fragment to have about the diameter of the robot's head. Assuming a 250 kilometer radius (about half of Mata Nui island, the approximate diameter of the fragment) and that the fragment was a sphere, the moon fragment had a volume of 196 million cubic kilometers. That's a lot of volume, but in order to have 43.7 million million million kilograms of mass it would have to have an average density about equal to that of iridium (the second-densest element on the periodic table; twice as dense as lead). Remember, 1) this is an average density -- because there's water and other stuff a lot less dense than iridium on Aqua Magna, the density of everything would actually be higher; 2) I took the absolutely smallest possible measurements for everything: I compared Mata Nui to a tall human, I assumed the metal it's made of is only as dense as human bone, that Mata Nui's head is exactly the size of Mata Nui the island, that the fragment was as big as Mata Nui's head (in the comic, it manages to fit inside after it hits), and that the moon fragment had exactly the energy it needed to hit through Teridax's skull (no excess energy).Summary: In order for the Aqua Magna fragment to puncture the Mata Nui robot's head, it would have to be twice as dense (on average) as lead.EDIT: For reference, Earth is on average half the density of lead.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Exo-Kahgarak

[The Captain]

I forgot about the AM hitting Makuta in the head. That was awful too, seeing as it was a water planet. Of nothing but water. That he had previously been standing on. *le sigh*

[bonesiii]

Sure, Teridax could negate the effect of gravity on Bara Magna... but why would he want to?

I've been expecting this one. (What took it so long lol. ) I worded my original point on this carefully; notice I said "systems" that would negate it. By that I mean that the GBs probably built in automatic systems to null those effects, that Teridax probably has no (or at least not easy to find) control over.Also, he wasn't the only factor there; Mata Nui would be nulling them too.With the rest of your post I just see numbers, so (to me at least) those aren't relevant. I only have time at moment to briefly skim, but lemme just toss out there that whatever you think your math has proven there, it's quite possibly you haven't applied it correctly -- especially considering this is a fictional substance with fictional physics to begin with, so most of the math is already not applicable. (Other than the unfortunate canon confirmations of sizes and stuff.)The Captain, it was the rock part that hit him. Aqua Magna has never been portrayed as just water. Mata Nui was laying on its rocky seafloor for a thousand years, for example. Also, on that subject you should be helped by going to the old forum, finding my old sig (at least I think it's still in there) and reading my theory about how the end made sense; I explained the plausibility of that in detail there.

[toa kopaka4372]

fishers, it may help to go to the "Plausible Rumor" topic in LEGO Discussion (the rumor isn't plausible but it's the topic open now where discussion of Bionicle's end and possibility of a return are on-topic), and read my latest few posts for more about what I mean about ending Bionicle sooner. In short I'm talking about if they had known more about what we now know in hindsight about how long Bionicle should have lasted for set sales, and with that knowledge (if they could have had that knowledge), condense the whole story.2003's plot as it was for example I would probably have removed, and possibly ended 2002 by opening the path to Metru Nui, don't do flashbacks but have Mata Nui be revived in 2003, and probably have a finale year in 2004 with the reveal about the giant robot, Makuta takeover, a second robot being found, and giant battle -- possibly stretching to 2005. Then do a whole new line, like Hero Factory. :)I do not mean to just take 2001-2003 story as it was and slap an end onto that. Let's face it, much of what the story spent so much time on was nothing but delays and distractions from the core events of the plot.To an extent I don't mind that. We did get some cool "side stories" out of it. On the other hand, I can attest as a fanfic writer who has commited to a story that mirrors the main plot, through to the 2010 story that it has been hard for me to bring myself to want to tell about the later years after 2002. I feel that the story began to wander aimlessly to some extent after that (I'm solving this by condensing it, in fact ).But prior to the end of 2002, I feel it stayed on-track to the central mystery of the Great Spirit giant. Some of 2006 did too, the end of 2007, parts of 2008, and again parts of the ending years. The whole flashback time was not necessary, we could have just as easily learned about Metru Nui while returning to it, and that arguably would have been more mysterious.Anyways, I guess I'm getting a bit tangential, but yeah; I think in hindsight the end possibly should have come much sooner. If the main plot had stayed on-track about the Great Spirit, and in the present, probably some of the problems people had with the end wouldn't have come up, even ending with a reformation possibly and especially with a giant robot fight.

I'm going to have to disagree with this :PI have noticed that of all the years of BIONICLE, much of the story was not totally focused on awakening Mata Nui. The reason I don't mind this is because I don't really see the story as just about a few heroes awakening a giant, powerful being. The length of the story allowed the universe to expand and also introduced many characters, providing ample material for those who write fanfics. This expansive universe is one of my favorite things about BIONICLE. I kind of see the story as covering various different events in the history of this universe, and Mata Nui's awakening is just one of them. In the big picture, out of 265,000 years (in-story), Mata Nui's awakening only concerned around 1,000 years of it. Stuff like the Core War, the Matoran Civil War, the rise and fall of the League of Six Kingdoms, the Zakaz Civil War, and the Toa/Dark Hunter War served to make the universe more expansive and real, with a detailed history. Also, the story continued even after Mata Nui's awakening, so...And IMO, the Metru Nui arc is one of my favorite parts of the whole story. It was done just right, even the Hordika part, and the Toa Metru had some excellent character development, and taking away any of that would have been a huge loss.

[fishers64]

fishers, it may help to go to the "Plausible Rumor" topic in LEGO Discussion (the rumor isn't plausible but it's the topic open now where discussion of Bionicle's end and possibility of a return are on-topic), and read my latest few posts for more about what I mean about ending Bionicle sooner. In short I'm talking about if they had known more about what we now know in hindsight about how long Bionicle should have lasted for set sales, and with that knowledge (if they could have had that knowledge), condense the whole story.2003's plot as it was for example I would probably have removed, and possibly ended 2002 by opening the path to Metru Nui, don't do flashbacks but have Mata Nui be revived in 2003, and probably have a finale year in 2004 with the reveal about the giant robot, Makuta takeover, a second robot being found, and giant battle -- possibly stretching to 2005. Then do a whole new line, like Hero Factory. :)I do not mean to just take 2001-2003 story as it was and slap an end onto that. Let's face it, much of what the story spent so much time on was nothing but delays and distractions from the core events of the plot.To an extent I don't mind that. We did get some cool "side stories" out of it. On the other hand, I can attest as a fanfic writer who has commited to a story that mirrors the main plot, through to the 2010 story that it has been hard for me to bring myself to want to tell about the later years after 2002. I feel that the story began to wander aimlessly to some extent after that (I'm solving this by condensing it, in fact ).But prior to the end of 2002, I feel it stayed on-track to the central mystery of the Great Spirit giant. Some of 2006 did too, the end of 2007, parts of 2008, and again parts of the ending years. The whole flashback time was not necessary, we could have just as easily learned about Metru Nui while returning to it, and that arguably would have been more mysterious.Anyways, I guess I'm getting a bit tangential, but yeah; I think in hindsight the end possibly should have come much sooner. If the main plot had stayed on-track about the Great Spirit, and in the present, probably some of the problems people had with the end wouldn't have come up, even ending with a reformation possibly and especially with a giant robot fight.

[To my shame, I did read that topic. That's where I got the irritated argument in the first place. I simply did not wish to barge into a staff member discussion. But when you bought it up over there, I thought I should say something about it. In view of that, I apologize for getting people off topic - this topic is more about the details of the ending rather than the timing of the ending.]But alas, let's just say that I go with this idea.All of a sudden, the Toa find this island city beneath Mata Nui. If they don't know what's down there, are they going to invite the whole Matoran population back there? That's why I think the 2004-05 story was told; it was firmly established that the Toa would not willingly lead the Matoran into an unknown area where they could be hurt or killed unless they absolutely had to. In fact, I remember Gali actually saying: "We will not go to the City of Legends with mysteries hanging over our heads." For the story to work out, the Matoran would have to return to Metru Nui; it firmly establishes their relationship as Mata Nui's nanotech workers. So the Turaga would have had to have shed some light on the place, at least in the main universe. Now, whether that story needed to be as complicated as it did and span two years is another question for a new topic.[but in the Bionicle Paracosmos that isn't an issue because the Matoran and Toa in there embrace mystery. What works in there may not work in the main universe. For your fanfics, this condensation seems to be an excellent route to take. But it doesn't apply to the main world.]That's the main problem with scrapping the flashbacks. Another problem is the issue of Makuta's characterization - without the "bridge" of 2003-2005, it would be like "Wow, this mystic enemy who we killed is suddenly a evil mastermind who is taking over the universe!" That's a huge characterization leap.The biggest "distractions" I can see are the organizations of the Dark Hunters and the Order of Mata Nui. Those guys could have been cut without issue. But I think they served a purpose - they reinforced how big this universe was, that it was more than just a few Toa and Matoran in a city.[And if you are talking Bionicle return, they expand the possibilities thereof. I wouldn't knock them now.]

I'm going to have to disagree with this :PI have noticed that of all the years of BIONICLE, much of the story was not totally focused on awakening Mata Nui. The reason I don't mind this is because I don't really see the story as just about a few heroes awakening a giant, powerful being. The length of the story allowed the universe to expand and also introduced many characters, providing ample material for those who write fanfics. This expansive universe is one of my favorite things about BIONICLE. I kind of see the story as covering various different events in the history of this universe, and Mata Nui's awakening is just one of them. In the big picture, out of 265,000 years (in-story), Mata Nui's awakening only concerned around 1,000 years of it. Stuff like the Core War, the Matoran Civil War, the rise and fall of the League of Six Kingdoms, the Zakaz Civil War, and the Toa/Dark Hunter War served to make the universe more expansive and real, with a detailed history. Also, the story continued even after Mata Nui's awakening, so...And IMO, the Metru Nui arc is one of my favorite parts of the whole story. It was done just right, even the Hordika part, and the Toa Metru had some excellent character development, and taking away any of that would have been a huge loss.

The issue here is not whether that should have happened, (the cutting and condensing) or whether it was possible, within the bounds of the story, to shorten it and remove said history to suit Lego's ends. That's the argument from the Lego Discussion topic that I should not have dragged in here.I agree with you that it should not have been done. I am quite glad that Lego did not know what the optimum time span for Bionicle was, that they kept pushing the upper limits of it. Edited March 31, 2012 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

Well, those are good points. But there would be one easy way to get them to go down -- remove the option of a protocage, and the Bahrag actually defeat the Toa, but the Toa discover the path to Metru Nui there, and realize they have a second option. The Toa thus come up with the idea to return, get the Matoran to safety, and upon talking to the Turaga find that they agree.Makuta could be ruling Metru Nui too instead of the door to it, and that's where the faceoff with him could go. After all, the Turaga originally brought the Matoran up to Mata Nui for the same purpose; to flee from a superior enemy.That could be 2003 story, with Rahkshi as Makuta's servants, and then there still (if desired) could be 2004 almost exactly as it was, to flashback and explain this place's history. That way we would have had time to see it as a mystery first, but the Toa still could have demanded an explanation once they were there. Also, I think most fans would have preferred not to do 2005, but somehow have the Toa Metru get the airships at the end of 2004 and flee with everybody. Then cut right to 2006 story for 2005.Anyhow, getting tangential now, but the point is there are ways it could be done. But yeah, this is all hindsight, and I do agree I'm probably missing points that make this not work as well as I think it does, heh.But one nice thing it could have made possible is that Bionicle still could have lasted a while, and the end wouldn't have had to be so rushed. Maybe. Then it might have made more sense to more people, even while being identical to what it was. Even the Golden Armor could have been introed earlier, maybe in 2003, and possibly as a problem first (like LOST's Jughead), so it wouldn't feel like a copout at the end.(And BTW, NOT saying this is how I will do my fanfics; if it was I wouldn't reveal it here lol. )

[Exo-Kahgarak]

The 'physics' I did wasn't even really physics. I used the definition of the meter, the kilogram, and the second; assuming all of these have a meaning in BIONICLE, my math should apply. I could see if I were trying to calculate something that could be different in the BIONICLE universe -- gravitational or electric fields or stuff that depends on universal constants that could be different in BIONICLE -- but I used nothing but units' definitions.On another note, another reason the robots' gravity might not screw everything up and that BM had earth-like gravity: perhaps G (the universal gravitational constant) is very small in the BIONICLE universe; the robots exert negligible gravitational pull, while BM could be the size of Jupiter and only exert the same gravitational force as earth does in our universe.

[bonesiii]

IMO it's unwise to think that the basic formulas of physics are different. Usually changing constants has profound effects on everything else, and since we see most things behaving normally you'd only have to propose Bionicle powers anyways to cancel out those effects. It's tidier to suppose that the basic formulas of physics are the same but that the behavior of things like protodermis (and anything that other powers might effect, especially energized protodermis in Spherus Magna's core originally) balances out things that would be problems on the comparatively small scale.For example, if a giant robot stomping would in our world would create a massive earthquake, it's cleaner to suppose that a power nullifies that specific effect, rather than changing everything (general physics) just to explain that one thing and thus having to come up with countless other explanations for why everything else usually behaves normally. Yeah?Or with your Jupiter example -- if that was so, the gravity on Aqua Magna would still be less than on Spherus Magna by a lot, yet in both cases we always see Earthlike gravity portrayed. So that evidence better fits that a power is equalling out gravity over a certain size, rather than a mere constant being lessened. If your explanation was used there would still need to be a power equalling out things for it to make sense anyways.

[Dwanny]

This was a serious eye-opener.I always knew there was something wrong with the ending, but your calculations pretty much said it all.Now i think i'll go curl up in the fetal position and cry.

[bonesiii]

This was a serious eye-opener.I always knew there was something wrong with the ending, but your calculations pretty much said it all.Now i think i'll go curl up in the fetal position and cry.

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