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Combination disks.


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21 replies to this topic

#1 Offline Tanu Toa of Earth

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 09:47 PM

Two questions. One, if a disk of, for instance, Speed, was made, what (if anything) would be used to mark it as such, seeing as they don't have numbers for combination powers. Would the disk ID look something like "1(8+1)7"? Because useful combination disks like the aforementioned Speed disk, Levitation, and Increase Weight, would probably need some kind of identificative notation.

 

And two, the question that more likely has answers other than "they don't do that," how exactly would some of the stranger combination disk powers work, particularly those (like Rahi Control or perhaps Illusion) that require user control after the power first activates?


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#2 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 10:25 PM

I don't know if numbers would be used, but I have theorized that they would paint or inscribe a relief sculpture of the shape of the mask that labels the power, as seen with the Disk of Time. :)


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#3 Offline Tanu Toa of Earth

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 10:50 PM

Oh, and another question... if two Kanoka from different Metru are combined, does the resulting disk get a reduced version of both "flight powers," a random one of them, or none at all?


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#4 Offline northmarch

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 11:06 PM

It could be that fused discs use an alpha-numerical code, like what was molded onto the inside of the original kanohi. 4-CR for example. Mult-metru discs could have completely different flight Patterns too. A Ta/Ko disc could tern intangible to avoid obstacles?
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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 02:18 AM

Just from (bad) memory, my understanding of the Flight powers is that they happen because of the Matoran who makes the disk, and/or the Metru it's made in. Assuming they mix a disk by melting the ingredients together, in that case I'd say that determines the flight power. If they merge a disk the way Vakama did with the Great Disks though, the same answer could work I guess. But unsure of any of that.

 

Assuming that were true, for sake of argument -- that the flight power depends on the Matoran that fuses them -- then maybe the labeling just puts in some kind of "blank; see shape-label carving above" symbol for the power, and just puts numbers for the flight power and power level?

 

Edit: Looking at the 199 of the DoT -- maybe "9" isn't actually directly the indicator of the time power but rather the "see the mask-shape image above" symbol, and since the symbol is of the Vahi (the shape Vakama had already chosen for Time as seen in failed attempts to carve the shape earlier), the 9 means time in that case. 9 makes sense as the indicator for "any mixed power" since they would be "higher on the list" than 1-8, and multiple digits for that wouldn't make much sense. The alternative is zero, or a non-numeric symbol.

 

The 1 for Ta-Metru isn't really accurate if it goes by physical location; he fused the disks while on the run in other Metru if memory serves. So that could be evidence that it's the Matoran/Toa's element that matters (though I wonder what they'd do if someone of one of the rare elements makes a disk??). And the other 9 is the power level; that's already clear.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 24 2013 - 02:23 AM.

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#6 Offline Chro

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 09:02 AM

The first number, 1 in Vakama's case, could be a sort of signature to show which district the maker hails from... *shrug*


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#7 Offline Toa of Italy

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 01:55 PM

My theory as far as the second question is concerned (about how powers that need to be controlled by the user would work) is that some kind of mental bond is established between the user and the disk, so that its effect is controlled by the former. We know, after all, that Ga-Metru disks can be influenced by the user's thoughts, so it's not impossible that the user can exploit a similar mental link to control powers such as those you suggested. 

 

The questions, at this point, might be two. One is how far that control can extend: does an Illusion disk, for instance, create a single illusion according to the user's wishes, or does it actually give the user the power of illusion for a short span of time and only over the target? (I'd tend for the former).

 

The second question is what happens when there is no single user. I have always thought, for instance, that ships and other vehicles used in war might be equipped with Shielding Kanoka in the hull, just as airships use Levitation and Increase Weight disks. This would create a Star Trek-style shield around the craft in question. But how would the problem of the user being aware or not of the attacks work in this case? If the vehicle carried more than a single passenger, who would actually have to notice the attack?


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#8 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 05:10 PM

I would think for mind-related powers, the target is affected by the power. For example, if I shoot an Illusion disk at a target, an Illusion is placed on the target. If I shoot a Mind-Control Disk at a target, the target's mind is controlled by me for awhile; Telepathy, I gave access to the target's thoughts, and whatnot. 

 

The real challenge would be things like telekinesis (mind-moving the stuff I hit? Perhaps high power levels would allow me to move the disk itself with my mind and do a Matilda.) water-breathing (is that a self-hit power?) Crast, Kakama (self-hit?), Faxon (???), Elda, Rode, any elemental disk of Psionics, Iden, Calix, Accuracy, any Mask power from 2006-07, Summoning, Olmak (dim. portal appears around target and is transported to another random dimension?). 

 

I'm guessing that for these mind-somewhat-related powers, the target is granted the power to do whatever the disk is. For example, hitting a Matoran with a Calix disk would give him the power to do the near impossible for a few minutes, and then he would return to normal. Hitting him with an Iden disk would give him a "spirit trip" for a few minutes. (This is starting to sound like comedies forum material.) Of course, who knows what would happen if I hit a chute strut with a Calix disk...

 

But I'm guessing that these powers are somewhat expensive, and so the disks are often made into masks. If only because having that mask on your face is better than running out of Kanoka energy in the middle of a battle. 


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#9 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 07:05 PM

I would think for mind-related powers, the target is affected by the power. For example, if I shoot an Illusion disk at a target, an Illusion is placed on the target. If I shoot a Mind-Control Disk at a target, the target's mind is controlled by me for awhile; Telepathy, I gave access to the target's thoughts, and whatnot.

Sounds likely. What we need to know, though, is how this mental link with the disk even works. I can imagine that the launchers have something to do with it, especially since Matoran lack the capacity to use mask powers and such by themselves. In real life we have rocket launchers containing a laser to help guide missiles to the target. A more sophisticated sci-fi version could probably help transmit the user's thoughts to the projectile as it flies.

In fact, if it weren't for the disks themselves being described as containing the Metru-specific power, I'd have thought it would be the launchers that were constructed with such flight pattern modifiers. The disks look exactly the same and are mixed based on protodermic powers, so whatever the disk-forgers do to make the Kanoka follow these flight patterns it must be added independently of the base Kanoka power. Like, Ta- and Le-Metru disks should be straightforward. More weight in the disk or more power in the launcher to make the disk capable of knocking others out of its way or flying further. Po-Metru disks could probably be made magnetic in some way to home in on other disks. The rest are much harder to explain.
 

I agree that other Kanoka may simply grant the user a power for a limited time. Invisibility, for example, or Night Vision. A Regeneration disk applies its effect upon striking the target, after all, so that shooting your armor with a disk is actually a way to fix it rather than breaking it more. A Disk of Kindred, though, if suh a disk has been made, would be much harder to predict.
 

Of course, who knows what would happen if I hit a chute strut with a Calix disk...

This one's easy. The strut back-flips over a Le-Metru building and catches the Matoran about to fall out of his vehicle on the other side. Duh.


I wonder if anyone has ever gotten a crack on their mask, then grabbed a Regeneration disk off a shelf and smashed it into their face? Possibly been out in the field when a Nui-Jaga struck, and then been forced to load a disk launcher, awkwardly prop it up against some rocks, and then trigger it to nail themselves with Remove Poison?

Edited by Katuko, Dec 24 2013 - 07:08 PM.

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#10 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 04:05 AM

I wonder if anyone has ever gotten a crack on their mask, then grabbed a Regeneration disk off a shelf and smashed it into their face?

I LOLed out loud.

 

The first number, 1 in Vakama's case, could be a sort of signature to show which district the maker hails from... *shrug*

Right -- that's sort of what I meant, except only indirectly; the Ta-Matoran happen to come from Ta-Metru just because that's the place designed for them. A Ta-Matoran could live anywhere else and presumably the disk would still get the Ta flight power. And a Ta-Matoran living for example on the Southern Continent who makes a Kanoka would also impart the Ta flight power.


Wonder what they do for disks made by Matoran of other elements? (Of course, we don't know a thing about how that works... Maybe there are only six total flight powers possible.)

 

In fact, if it weren't for the disks themselves being described as containing the Metru-specific power, I'd have thought it would be the launchers that were constructed with such flight pattern modifiers. The disks look exactly the same and are mixed based on protodermic powers, so whatever the disk-forgers do to make the Kanoka follow these flight patterns it must be added independently of the base Kanoka power. Like, Ta- and Le-Metru disks should be straightforward. More weight in the disk or more power in the launcher to make the disk capable of knocking others out of its way or flying further. Po-Metru disks could probably be made magnetic in some way to home in on other disks. The rest are much harder to explain.

It appears that it only looks hard to you because you're thinking they're not actually powers, but canonically it seems clear to me that they are. The disks looking the same (other than the number) is irrelevant -- a disk of Freezing main power and a Disk of Regeneration main power also look identical other than the number. The power is in the protodermis molecules. In fact this is the first I've heard anyone suggest they might not be actual flight "powers" but some simpler technological addition.

 

Why there's a secondary power involved and how the Matoran discover it, I've got theories in my retelling that I guess I'll save for readers. :P

 

As to how each works, I think like with most powers it all boils down to different, very specific uses of telekinesis of either objects or energy. Note the Ga one for example:

 

Could change direction in mid-air according to the user's thoughts.

That's clearly telekinesis. So if that's used for one, logically it's easily possible for the others. So they're actually powers, not just like magnetizing them or making one have more mass or the like. In that case, it really is irrelevant whether the power is in the disk or the launcher. (My retelling comments on why it would be in the disk too, though -- it does make sense.)

 

 

As for all these questions and ideas of whether the mental-control ones give it to the firer or target, I just seem to recall Greg saying that mental control by the firer was possible. I forget if he gave any specific examples, but I think the Disk of Fire would be one. So, add that in the mix to make things even more confusing. :P

 

If that is more common than target-based control, then for example, throwing an Illusion Disk could still let the one holding the launcher control what illusion appears, and the impact would merely be the trigger. Seems awkward for a disk, but then remember this is just a protodermic power, originally intended for masks more than disks. (Disks were not invented until very recently.) Another thing is to look at whether the mask power version operates on self or target.

The Huna for example is strictly on the self. That one could get confusing -- you fire it across a vast field and hit another Matoran, yet you turn invisible? I doubt it... but I wouldn't be sure that's not what happens, because if you fire any disk that Greg would say does give the user the control, the distance and point of impact shouldn't matter too much. But the disk version of the Garai seems straightforward by contrast -- the target is the thing affected, while the firer controls what happens to the target.

 

Maybe the Huna would make the impact target turn invisible but the user decides when to switch it off, unless a time limit runs out? I dunno. It's a tricky issue. Probably part of why the canon avoided it for the most part.

 

It may also just be that there's no guarantee that the disk versions work logically at all, since the powers were made for masks. A Calix Disk might just do nothing at all. In that case that might actually help explain why that one was apparently not common on Metru Nui -- Matoran couldn't test the disk to discover what power it had; you'd need a Toa to test it, and who would risk testing an unidentified power? What if it randomly reconstitutes the user permanently for example? And Toa weren't common in Metru Nui. :shrugs:

 

Thoughts for food.


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#11 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 09:29 AM

I know that they are powers in canon, I just felt that it would be more intuitive, in a way, if the Matoran had as little to say as possible in how the disk actually operates. Mental control does sound very much like telekinesis - and telekinesis is a power I'd have expected a Matoran to lack the mental capacity to operate. I guess it's been reduced to a simple enough level that it barely requires thought, though. Whereas even a Noble Matatu requires you to focus on the target, the disk power may actually do all the focusing for you; auto-targeting the launcher and then just keeping track of rudimentary mental processes to determine where the Matoran is looking or willing the disk to go.

Matoran can't use Kanohi powers etc, so I suppose the disks have to be as the program compared to the programmer's source code - the end users have no idea how their media players read binary data and actually converts it to sound, but they are still able to drag-n-drop a file (maybe even record their own) and have it play.

I agree that the effect of a launched disk would have more to do with the Matoran who created it than the district it was created in, but that forces us to read deeper into each Matoran breed and start asking questions. Would Onu-Matoran from outside Metru Nui also create the flight pattern of an Onu-Metru disk, where they to forge one for the first time? Would Vo-Matoran have another unique flight pattern, or would they fall within one of the ones we know the number for? Would Metru Nui inhabitants have a system in place for such an occasion, since there are 15-16 elements but they only label disks up to 9? With the hexadecimal numbering system (including the letters from A to F as digits) well established in computer science, you could conveniently label a disk from 0 to 15, but I don't think Matoran use this system.

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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 11:48 AM

and telekinesis is a power I'd have expected a Matoran to lack the mental capacity to operate

I think your other comments explain this pretty well, but I'd just say that since the canon says they can, they can. :P It's a bit unclear in canon what kind of "mental capacity" is meant when it's stated that they can't use Kanohi. I don't think it means Matoran are stupid. I think it's more of a vague extra area of the brain that we as humans probably can't relate to. The Kanoka powers probably just use normal thoughts, comparable to what we could do. Toa probably just have an extra part of their brain for "weird Kanohi stuff" that is highly specific in how you use it, rather than taking more capacity, if that makes any sense. IMO. :shrugs:

 

[Edit: What I mean is that probably what Toa have simply activates masks, but the power control itself IMO is probably using the same part of the brain as the Matoran. So a Matoran could do everything needed to use a Matatu, except activate it. With Kanoka, the impact handles the activation instead. I guess.]

 

With the hexadecimal numbering system (including the letters from A to F as digits) well established in computer science, you could conveniently label a disk from 0 to 15, but I don't think Matoran use this system.

I was thinking of that kind of system too. Could happen.

 

They might also not worry about having only three digits, since this could only increase the maximum to four digits. (Two for element-of-maker, two for the other things.)


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 25 2013 - 11:50 AM.

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#13 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 12:26 PM

Toa probably just have an extra part of their brain for "weird Kanohi stuff" that is highly specific in how you use it, rather than taking more capacity, if that makes any sense. IMO. :shrugs:

An M-PCU - "Mask Power Control Unit" - is probably a part that were installed in some species but not in others. :P If BIONICLE was really hardcore on the sci-fi terms, I can easily picture such a term popping up.
 

They might also not worry about having only three digits, since this could only increase the maximum to four digits. (Two for element-of-maker, two for the other things.)

If they used dashes, they could just stamp a mark like this: 13-2-5. As long as there is space on the disk, you know. Heck, since the Metru emblem already indicates the flight pattern and the lines around the rim shows the power level, you might even use an entirely different print to show the power. Just print "KUALSI", for example, in the case of teleportation. The number is not really needed at all, and we don't see it in the promo disk animations or on disks such as Vakama's.

In Legends of Metru Nui the disks are even less distinct, yet Vakama takes the time to select a specific disk to use when he aims at the statue of Lhikan, and is capable of doing so. He doesn't actually say anything when he does it, so I'm not certain if the scene was meant to show him discarding the Great Disk he was carrying in favor of a normal one, or if he chose a power such as Weaken from his supply of regular Kanoka.

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#14 Offline Chro

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 01:17 PM

I wonder if anyone has ever gotten a crack on their mask, then grabbed a Regeneration disk off a shelf and smashed it into their face?

* facedisk *


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#15 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 06:40 PM

 

I wonder if anyone has ever gotten a crack on their mask, then grabbed a Regeneration disk off a shelf and smashed it into their face?

* facedisk *

 

Introducing the brand new Crack-B-Gone Kanoka disk! Apply directly to forehead!

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Quick and easy regeneration, every time!

Note: Look for authentic "7" power digit before use. Crack-B-Gone and its associates are not responsible for any disk misuse that may lead to side effects such as sudden growth, random teleportation and/or accidental removal of poison.


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#16 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 08:10 PM

^That actually makes me wonder if any lazy maskmakers smashed a regen disk into masks they had accidentally nicked.

 

Anyway, I thought Kanoka disks were more like this: *point* *shoot* *power happens*

 

Whereas a mask power would allow for more pinpoint control. For example, if you smashed a Huna disk into your knee, you would be invisible for a while, until the power wore off. Unlike with the Kanohi Huna, when you can become invisible or un-invisible any time you want to. 


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#17 Offline Chro

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Posted Dec 25 2013 - 10:34 PM

For example, if you smashed a Huna disk into your knee, you would be invisible for a while, until the power wore off.

Or your knee would become invisible and freak everyone the heck out.


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#18 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 26 2013 - 04:04 PM

 

For example, if you smashed a Huna disk into your knee, you would be invisible for a while, until the power wore off.

Or your knee would become invisible and freak everyone the heck out.

 

Possible, if it was a power level one Huna disk or something like that. 

 

Although the difference between the Noble Huna and the Great Huna is duration of invisibility, not how much invisible you are. So a power level one disk could turn you invisible for two minutes, whereas an eight would have you playing Johmak for a day.  


Edited by fishers64, Dec 27 2013 - 03:31 PM.

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#19 Offline Chro

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Posted Dec 27 2013 - 08:03 PM

That gives me a thought... what if Jerbraz's condition was a result of being hit with a ridiculously high power level invisibility disk? :P


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#20 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 28 2013 - 03:00 PM

I don't think the Order of Mata Nui would be using disks directly, but it stands to reason that their experiments would have involved a form of protodermis containing the power to turn people invisible. I don't think it's been stated exactly how the powers are "refined", but we do know that Matoran mine out protodermis which is then purified and molded into disks. The disks can then be further shaped into functional Kanohi masks by a skilled craftsman. I've sometimes wondered why the Matoran don't just skip the Kanoka stage and pour molten protodermis straight into Kanohi molds, but I guess it's harder to get the shape right.

Because Kanoka power levels 1-5 become Matoran masks, level 6-7 results in Noble and level 8 results in Great masks, we may conclude that the mask forging process wastes roughly 5 levels worth of power. We might then guess that because only Toa and beings of similar power can handle Kanohi of Great rank, creating a mask of higher level would not be useful even if they could (by pouring Level 8 "regeneration"-powered protodermis straight into a Kiril mold); or perhaps that the mask would be perfectly usable, but even a Legendary being would not be able to create a stronger effect no matter how high the power level is. A Great Hau is already a near perfect shield, after all, since it can block just any attack that the user can conceivably block.

Still, even if this speculation is correct - that a mask forged directly from Level 8 protodermis would not be able to yield any higher effect than one where the energy drops to Level 3 - that still brings up the question of what we could do with a Level 3 protodermis batch. If you skip the Kanoka stage and go straight for a mask mold, would the protodermis be able to become a Great Kanohi?

Or is there perhaps more to the mask-making process than just reshaping the metal? Perhaps there is some fine-tuning of the material that is needed in order to make the mask work on a mental trigger as opposed to the Kanoka's activation from impacting a target. Otherwise we might see a Toa's mask accidentally activated when an enemy hits them in the face. If it's only heating that causes the energy leak, then melting the purified protodermis in the first place should waste a lot of energy during the disk-making process. Or do they mine out solid protodermis, and then hammer it into disk-form? The disks look molded rather than hammered to my eye, but I have no idea how good disk-makers are at their work. Hewkii was allegedly the best disk-maker in Metru Nui, and he came from a district of carvers, not forge-workers.

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#21 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 06:45 PM

I think it would be more likely that invisibility proto was fused into him somehow and something inside of him is keeping the power active. Or it could be a Zamor-style virus. :shrugs:

 

I've sometimes wondered why the Matoran don't just skip the Kanoka stage and pour molten protodermis straight into Kanohi molds, but I guess it's harder to get the shape right.

It's been confirmed by Greg that they can do this, but I think that Kanoka stage tells you how much power and what it is, as an easy reference. That way you get less mask-making mistakes. If you customer orders a Kiril, you don't want to mix the proto wrong and get a Rau by accident. Better to use/merge the correct disks together to make sure you have the right power combo for a Kiril.  


Edited by fishers64, Dec 29 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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#22 Offline Tanu Toa of Earth

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 09:13 AM

 

 

I wonder if anyone has ever gotten a crack on their mask, then grabbed a Regeneration disk off a shelf and smashed it into their face?

* facedisk *

 

Introducing the brand new Crack-B-Gone Kanoka disk! Apply directly to forehead!

lematoran_facedisk_by_katuko.gif

Quick and easy regeneration, every time!

Note: Look for authentic "7" power digit before use. Crack-B-Gone and its associates are not responsible for any disk misuse that may lead to side effects such as sudden growth, random teleportation and/or accidental removal of poison.

 

Holy Mukau... Best thing that's happened in this forum for a long time.


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