Ferromagnetic Protosteel?

[Regitnui]

I like long words. Simply put, could a Vo-Toa (electricity) magnetize protosteel by running a current through it? This would have to be done at close range and requires contact for maximum efficiency, which would explain why the Brotherhood of Makuta didn't genocide the Vo-Matoran, but it would be an ideal trick for a Toa Tool.

 

Thoughts? 

[Mailli]

Electromagnets need a spiraling current, so maybe it could work.

But maybe protosteel doesn't magnetise like normal metals...

[NuvaTube]

I think it's entirely possible, I'd assume it's the case (although Protosteel may work in unforeseen ways). I don't understand what you mean by it explaining why the Brotherhood didn't eradicate the Vo-Matoran though? A Vo-Toa wouldn't be able to do anything with the magnetised metal anyway. At best, they would be able to magnetise a non-ferromagnetic metal in order for a Fa-Toa to do something with it, so not really a direct threat in terms of magnetic attacks...

[Regitnui]

Exactly my point. Though the Vo-Toa Could magnetize armour and tools, It wouldn't be as strong or as deadly to Makuta as the Fa- or Fe-Toa. HEnce why the BoM would leave them alone.

 

Would this be a good question to throw Greg's way, BZP?

[bonesiii]

I'd say yes and no...

 

It absolutely needs to be possible, logically, in terms of basic physics, since normal matter is confirmed to exist there, and this is one of the basic systems of physics that makes atoms, etc. possible. However, the Great Beings certainly could have included a limit against it if they didn't want Lightning to be overpowered and make Magnetism moot. So... could go either way really.

[The Meta Knight]

I'd say protosteel more than likely could be turned into an electromagnet by a toa of electricity unless, like Bonesiii said, the great beings put a limit on her powers. But something else that should be taken into account is the fact that a toa of lightning would have to know how. Unless she somehow knows that a spiraling current of electricity can make a type of magnet out of her metal toa-tool, the only way she'll use her powers through her toa-tool is by firing bolts of lightning or electrical jolts, and it is arguably unlikely that a Vo-Toa would stumble upon such a skill accidentally. So unless their is an explanation as to how a Vo-Toa could have learned such a skill, (not that it would be hard for a learned Ko-Matoran scholar to explain it to her,) she'll probably never be able to create a magnet out of a protosteel weapon.

Edited October 26, 2014 by The Meta Knight

[Regitnui]

The justification I came up with is that it's either an inherited technique, learned from her turaga and her turaga's turaga, or an inherent property of one particular weapon (Roodaka's Catcher Claws, eg.), that it can channel electricity in that way.

[Mailli]

Thinking over it, an electromagnet would pretty useless for a toa because it would stick to themselves before anyone else.

[The Meta Knight]

Thinking over it, an electromagnet would pretty useless for a toa because it would stick to themselves before anyone else.

 

That's another disadvantage for a Vo-Toa, as well as an interesting observation on your part. A Toa of magnetism could easily control the magnetic field so that it would only be attracted to whatever he needs it to be attracted to, whereas a Vo-Toa would have a really hard time controlling the magnetic field created by the magnet, if she could control it at all. I suppose that's the determining factor: whether or not a Vo-Toa could manipulate the flow of electricity in her protosteel toa-tool in such a way that would create a sustained and controllable electromagnet, and can control the flow of electricity in such away that she could control the magnetic field itself  is what determines the answer to the initial question. If not, then I'm gonna have to say the answer is no, but I really don't know if it would be possible to control the magnetic field by controlling the flow of electricity. Clarification anyone?

[bonesiii]

I really don't know if it would be possible to control the magnetic field by controlling the flow of electricity. Clarification anyone?

Direct control over the field no, but there's another physics detail relevant here -- can they quickly shut down the field if it becomes a danger to them? I'd say (if Vo-Toa are even allowed to do this) that if they are making a magnetic field directly by just creating spiraling lightning in the air in front of them, the moment they switch off the electricity, the field should disappear pretty much instantly. However, if they're doing this in metal, even if it's not the kind of metal that gets permanently magnetized, magnetic fields have a strong tendency to resist decay. That's why real electromagnets tend to remain magnetic for a few seconds, fading out.

 

So, if they were approaching instant death as a result of their field in metal, I'd say that in general they would still likely die. (For example, if the field suddenly pulled them toward the metal and they were moving at a speed that would make impact deadly.)

[fishers64]

Stopping the flow of electricity could stop an artificially created electromagnet. It would be like pulling the plug on a vaccuum cleaner.

 

The thing is, though, electricity either magnetizes something or it doesn't. Electricity doesn't control how something is magnetized as much as whether it is or not, I think, so manipulating magnetic fields I think is out. I'm no physicist, so could be wrong - what I'm remembering is the common electric motor diagram of the current changing to spin the thing.

 

Also, I doubt a Vo-Toa would be able to manipulate naturally magnetic metal. Her powers could strengthen that field, possibly, which could be an asset if the resident Gravity Toa is trying to pull her into the giant shredding machine in the factory on Xia, but I don't think she'll be making that go another direction. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by fishers64

[The Meta Knight]

 

I really don't know if it would be possible to control the magnetic field by controlling the flow of electricity. Clarification anyone?

Direct control over the field no, but there's another physics detail relevant here -- can they quickly shut down the field if it becomes a danger to them? I'd say (if Vo-Toa are even allowed to do this) that if they are making a magnetic field directly by just creating spiraling lightning in the air in front of them, the moment they switch off the electricity, the field should disappear pretty much instantly. However, if they're doing this in metal, even if it's not the kind of metal that gets permanently magnetized, magnetic fields have a strong tendency to resist decay. That's why real electromagnets tend to remain magnetic for a few seconds, fading out.

 

So, if they were approaching instant death as a result of their field in metal, I'd say that in general they would still likely die. (For example, if the field suddenly pulled them toward the metal and they were moving at a speed that would make impact deadly.)

 

 

That is correct. But again, you're forgetting that, according to BS01, 

 

 

Toa of Lightning have the Elemental Power of Lightning, allowing them to create, control, and absorb lightning.

Therefore, in addition to being able to create an electrical current, a Vo-Toa could probably almost instantly absorb the electric current she had created, so if she could create a spiraling electric current in a chunk of metal, then she could just as easily absorb the same current. So I really don't think that would be an issue. Interesting point though.

[Akavakaku]

Just want to point out that a spiraling electrical current focuses the magnetic field INSIDE the spiral, not outside it.

[bonesiii]

Meta, I wasn't forgetting that; that's basically what I meant by "switched off". (Otherwise I guess you'd have lightning fly off in all directions or something which wouldn't be very safe... although Toa can only temporarily absorb elements, so it would have to be sent somewhere soon and perhaps they would just send it there from the start instead of bothering with the absorbing stage.)

 

Av, not sure who you're replying to there, but controlling the aim and intensity of the field inside the coil does "focus" the field (at least its polarity and reach) outside it.

[Thormen]

Wouldn't it be extremely difficult to create a spiraling current in the air? Of course we've seen Toa of air or water create hurricanes and whirlpools respectively, but I don't think that compares 'cause creating a whirlpool is as easy as pushing one half of the water in one direction and pushing the other half in the other direction. With electricity you're going to have to worry about creating some kind of virtual insulation around your current so that it doesn't leak every which way and that to me seems like it requires a LOT of concentration and skill. After all, you can just rotate a stick in the water and you'll create a whirlpool, but rotating a cathode and an anode in water isn't going to get you an electromagnet (in fact it's very likely to get you hurt).

[bonesiii]

Good question. I dunno. I normally think of Toa of Lightning just shooting a beam of lightning at a target. My guess is it would be possible, since Greg has said Takanuva was working on holograms, so if even the fastest energy of all, light, can be controlled with such precision, electrons should be possible to control too. But how difficult?

 

That alone might be worth asking Greg.

[Akavakaku]

No, I mean if you wrap a wire in a helix shape and pass a current through it, the magnetic field will be strongest inside the coil and weakest outside it. In a perfect situation where the wire makes infinite loops, there would be no magnetic field outside the coil. Even if a Toa of Lightning took a big wire coil and grabbed both ends of the wire and sent a current through it, she'd STILL have to get her enemy to kindly step inside the coil for any appreciable magnetism to affect them.

I think the Makuta were probably smarter than that.

[Regitnui]

Which is why I thought this ability would be more suited to catching rhotuka or enemy weapons than any real offensive manouevre.

[bonesiii]

Even if a Toa of Lightning took a big wire coil and grabbed both ends of the wire and sent a current through it, she'd STILL have to get her enemy to kindly step inside the coil for any appreciable magnetism to affect them.

No, "appreciable" magnetism enough to pick up huge pieces of metal are made with large electromagnets like those used in some junkyards. All it has to be is strong enough to attract their armor, but they would have to be fairly close already for it to work. They don't have to be inside the coil. It would certainly be less effective than a Toa of Magnetism, though, who could put the field anywhere.

[Akavakaku]

Right, those magnets are huge and must still be more or less in contact with what they're lifting. The best a Toa of Lightning could do in that regard is carry a huge club with an insulated wire coil wrapped around it, and even then all it could really do is stick to armor or weapons when a current is put through it. Which could be useful; it would be like a universal parrying hook, but not a big threat.

[Regitnui]

This would have to be done at close range and requires contact for maximum efficiency, which would explain why the Brotherhood of Makuta didn't genocide the Vo-Matoran, but it would be an ideal trick for a Toa Tool.

I acknowledged that it was unlikely to be as powerful as a Fa-Toa, or even offensively useful, in the OP. I asked, could it be done? And the answer seems to be yes.