fishers64

You won't find anything in The Legend Reborn like this, I'm sure.

That movie is underrated. Not saying it was great, but it is really hated on a bit much.

It's not like there is too much hidden meaning in TLR, however. It mostly is what it is. Also, it is not available on [snip], so I would have a hard time reviewing it, because I would have to do it from memory. :-(

No. Not likely.

Epic/Short Story: Anything I wrote :DComedy: Tough Choice, but I would have to say Fun with Taka and Tahu by the Bionicle Hero. Close runner-ups would be The Bionicle Channel by Baron Von Nebula and Useless BZPower Junk that You Must Have by Toa of Nerds.

Unlikely, not enough topics on BZP anymore, and RPG isn't my thing really...

Then make some!At 500 posts a year, twenty years will be my day. I am certain that I will reach it sooner than I like, and I spend too much time posting on here...

It isn't like the other films, where there was this mystic feeling and lots of symbols and hidden meaning. Most of this one is analysis of character's intentions, because there is no meaning to this, it foreshadows nothing, and it is insane - hence the title. It's also why it was shorter.I was tempted to skip this one and TLR largely because of that, but since I had something to say and WoS analysis was corrupting the LoMN topic...this happened.

If Bionicle didn't have a story...I wouldn't even be a fan of Bionicle. At all. There are those few who don't care about sets who buy books, ya'know?Of course, that's a minority, but still...

I personally disagree. I want it to come back. Sets and all.

I agree.

Probably they'd just keep it in Karda Nui.

I second this. But it was the Toa Nuva's destiny to awaken Mata Nui from day one, so I don't think this is relevant.

I know it's frustrating, but at the moment there really isn't too much we can do about it. Contacting Greg directly is out of the picture for normal members, and at the end of the day he really doesn't have any obligation to keep going with the story besides the fans' requests. Yes, we all want to see more, but we need to accept we're low priority. All we can really do is hope that LEGO doesn't pull the plug on things as a whole.

Haven't they already pulled the plug?

Greg has confirmed that Teridax is dead. Thus the powers of the Author have blasted him into oblivion, which transcend all possibilities and impossibilities, time and elements, conivery and trickery...

What LEGO could get away with does not equate to what should be in a TV series. Personally, I prefer the Hero Factory story to be somewhat lighthearted, even if it doesn't need to be throwing corny jokes at us all the time. I don't think anything darker or edgier than the BIONICLE films would ever be necessary for Hero Factory or any other LEGO TV show.

Adding more violence surely wouldn't help. It would hurt Lego's image. Somebody could even sue if it gets too bad, and there are better ways to add story line complexity. I think the most important thing is to remove the cheese.

The funny thing is that WoS was actually one of two favorite Bionicle books (the other being Time Trap). The other movie tie-in books were mediocre I thought. That goes to show you how much voice acting actually contributes to (or detracts from) the quality of a movie .-don't touch my pocket protector

Actually, there are a number of major differences between the novel and the book, like the reason Vakama betrayed the others, the role of Onewa and Whenua in the story, etc. It is the movie that deviates the most from its novel.Also, using my Create-a-Topic powers, I have magically redirected criticism of the cheesecake WoS here.It's what you've all been waiting for.

Bionicle Web of ShadowsTheme: There are four themes to this movie:1. Pride goes before a fall; it doesn't pay to be overconfident2. It is best to consult with others to avoid walking into a trap (Matau)3. “I only lead those who choose to follow me. That’s the difference between being a leader, and a tyrant like you.”(Vakama)4. “Unity, Duty, Destiny. It starts with unity.” –Rahaga NorikThe directors tried to create a movie with multiple themes and universal application, much like Shakespeare or Crime and Punishment. What they got was a mess, completely incomprehensible. There is also what the characters interpret theme #1 to be, side themes that only apply to certain characters, and themes that are expressed that don’t even apply. One example of that is Rahaga Norik’s conversation with Vakama: “That is something you can’t change.” “Watch me.” And then Vakama does exactly what he says he would, except not quite in the way he imagined when he was talking to Norik. The key to defeating all the Visorak was having Vakama in charge of them and setting them free, which tatters a lot of the other themes stated above. If Vakama hadn’t done what he did, the whole story would fall apart, leaving any themes to the contrary with a giant hole in them.Main Character: MatauSurprised? Who is the first person who we see after the Toa land? Matau. Who is the guy who shows up after the transformation? That would be Matau. Who saves the day at the end, and practically hogs the camera the entire movie? Three guesses. This movie, unlike the other two, is told in third-person limited, with the camera jumping between Vakama and Matau. This nicely explains all of the other film’s peculiarities, like the other Toa practically not existing for most of the film, because in Matau’s mind, they don’t. We have just logged on to the All Matau, All the Time channel for most of the film – and now a word from our sponsor, Sidorak…which is portrayed precisely as Matau views him. That’s probably where the credit music came from, and the whole thing was a nightmare in Matau’s head. The best way to interpret this film as that, and consider the novel Web of Shadows (which was vastly better than the movie) as what really happened.

While I am on the subject of novels, I have to admit that this movie deviates the most from its movie novelization. This is just an opinion, not really an insight, but I think they should have told this story like they told LoMN, and included scenes from that epic Challege of Hordika Battle. The deviation on the chronology between book and movie is so bad that different reasons are cited for Vakama going out and betraying the others.Secondary Major Character: Vakama (duh!)While Vakama exhibits some of the characteristics of taking the lead again, and having to have the theme explained by Matau, which is usually the secondary character’s role, but because nothing is as it should be in this film, I’m just going to throw it out. Web of Shadows is vastly different from the other ones in almost every other respect, so why not this one? And I’ve already explain the whole Matau-as-main-character thing. The story is so sad, demented and messed up, that it even tears up any whiffs of theme and narrative structure. At least, any that make sense. Oh, and also we must establish that Vakama owns the world, even though he is chewed at the expense of the theme, but not really. We have gone back to the Fire-bashing of MoL, because it is easier.All that above nicely explains why nobody liked this movie: Vakama is beat up, nobody can get what the theme is, and nobody likes Matau. The End. Oh, wait, we still have to do the film.The Very First Scene

· So we start off with a giant silver fingernail slicing into Makuta’s now red prison. Red, and thus fire, is on the Dark Side now, kiddies. This is supposed to tell us that Roodaka is our Makuta rep in this film, and unlike the previous two films, His Dark Lordness fails to put in an appearance. Also, it is a symbol of Roodaka’s damage to Vakama, harkening back to the Red Toa Rock in the last film, and basically saying that there is a Makuta trapped inside Vakama, which is a theme from 2005 that otherwise didn’t make it in this film – the darkness inside yourself, remember that?

· Web of Shadows is a really strange title. It could refer to the actual physical web, or the web of deceit Roodaka spins around Vakama. The Visorak aren’t much more than Roodaka’s third arm. The name Visorak goes back to the sun-sheilding “visor”. They are a shield from the light, particularly the light of truth. That’s part of the reason we don’t see any visions in here, and it is their Hordika poison that keeps all those wonderful AI glitches from happening. Also, it might be important to note that Visorak and Vahki are enemies of Vakama, and it is kind of a giveaway that the Visorak end up being Vakama’s instruments. When you see a V, look for a connection: Vakama, Vahi, Voporak all have to do with time; Velika is a foil of Vezok and Vezon, (the guy who gives unexpected wisdom vs. the two crazy cool dudes, and the centrality of Voya Nui is likely the fulfillment of the prophecy given to Vakama in Time Trap, and it goes back to the “daggers of death” = enemies (like the enemies of Vakama). Not all beginning consonants are significant; M and T are overused so much that they worthless. But that is another topic altogether, and it is probably a list of funny coincidences.

The Storm to the Fall

· In case you haven’t interviewed Kongu lately, you know that all Toa of Air love water, especially wild, turbulent water. So, the perfect way to start off the Toa of Air’s worst nightmare is: a rainstorm, a crash, and having to be bailed out by Whenua. Keep in mind Matau is driving; that is important later.

· Matau really doesn’t like wild animals either. Remember that the Toa’s base of operations in this whole sequence was Le-Metru: he probably doesn’t like his neighborhood being run over by it.

· “We faced the Makuta and won. I doubt a bunch of crusty relics are going to give us much trouble, right?” The ultimate statement of pride, but it is pretty stupid since the Visorak aren’t “crusty relics”. And Matau’s comment about walking into a trap doesn’t really make sense, since they walked about two hundred feet onto the island, only to get nailed. Our Main Character is already espousing themes that don’t make since, and we are only a few minutes in. As Nokama would say later, “This is not Vakama’s fault.” Well, it wasn’t.

· Introducing the picture of overconfidence who conveniently gets killed at the end: Sidorak. The pride-goes-before-a-fall theme is rather pervasive – this movie attacks self-reliance and independent action. Lego failed to consider its audience, a lot of people who believe in independent creativity. This movie is almost anti-Lego.

· You’ll notice that the Champion Complainer Onewa’s mouth is muffled by the web, a slight against his personality.

· Also, if you go by the books, Nokama is a foil of Roodaka. Her dialogue in this movie is a lot like she has lost Vakama to Roodaka. (there is a lot of bad romantic connotations in this film, too) Roodaka is a little friendly towards Makuta; and we know how Matau feels about Nokama, so the movie is a complete shipper’s paradise.

· The fall scene: Like the two movies that repeat stuff at the beginning and the end, this repeats the fall itself.

· “I can’t just change” says Vakama, and then he does, turning into Hordika.

· Most of Matau being the Main character comes from the fact that Greg wanted Matau to betray the others, not Vakama. In that situation, Vakama would probably fight Matau to get him back using his zen persuasive skills which he doesn’t have. (that’s Nokama’s and Roodaka’s domain) Switch the roles, and you get WoS, with Matau pushing Vakama over the edge, Matau relizing his awful mistake, learning some hard lessons and trying to convince Vakama that he’s changed. That’s why that keeps getting brought up.

· The fall is a representation of the Toa’s fall from glory into ugliness. Roodaka and Sidorak, our examples of pride and conniving disunity, observe. Nokama is the last to fall, indicating that there is still some good left in her. (one of the best music sequences ever).

Vakama’s leaving, the Great Temple, and Roodaka.

· Before you dis the Rahaga’s propellers, it’s a symbol. The Toa are the lead weight, indicating that darkness within theme again. The Rahaga have not been weighted down or have fallen from glory, and they can move up and down the range from nobility to foolishness with ease. Height is a prime symbol…overcoming darkness moves you up in height, which is why all the protagonists fly or climb up at the end. The Rahaga can already go up there, but they have come down to the Toa’s level to help them.

· Roodaka magically gets a huge Makuta Rock in her private chambers. Even though the tiny heartstone had to be painfully cut from the Makuta prison, a giant Makuta communication stone can easily be bought in Vortixx Mart.

· The next thing is Matau complaining about Vakama, and everyone trying to calm him or stop him. Then the Rahaga appear and explain their condition. This is important: What splits up the team is not Matau’s earlier comments, but the idea that the Matoran’s Rescue should be postponed in order to cure the Toa’s affliction. All the other Toa want to find Keetongu first; Vakama does not. All Vakama cares about is the Matoran; he is completely selfless when he leaves. His “I’ll show them all” comment is his expression of wanting to prove that his position is right. It is Roodaka’s influence that warps his better-than-Matau’s intentions. This is misunderstood by everyone in the film, especially Rahaga Norik.

· All that explains Rahaga Norik’s comment about the Matoran being in the most capable hands: the fact that Vakama was willing to sacrifice everything for them, even his own sanity, shows that he will be the paramount person to keep them safe. Even Rahaga Norik’s comment about the Toa needing Vakama to lead them is factual; Vakama doesn’t care about the others as long as the Matoran get saved. In fact, Vakama would probably love to leave them behind, especially Matau. The whole thing is exacerbated by Hordika venom and misunderstandings.

· Remember that scene when the Toa were trying to get to the Great Temple and were stopped by Vahki? That’s usually the Toa trying to return to their value system, to try to do what is right. This time, it is the venom that won’t let them in; only the Rahaga, who transcend the levels of good and bad, can get in.

· According the novel WoS, Vakama is trying to two-time Roodaka into giving him command of the horde, than use it against Roodaka. This isn’t evident here, giving the audience the impression that Vakama is crazy. He does succeed, however. Remember, Vakama owns the world, even when crazy.

· Vakama destroying the Great Temple is pretty much his statement of saying that his values don’t matter to him anymore.

· Then, in a complete failure to get the point, the other Toa decide to expedite their search for Keetongu in order to save Vakama, who left them over that very thing. And then we slide over and show something out of Disney.

· And in a complete contrast to Disney, Vakama bangs on Sidorak’s door, with a few imprisoned Rahaga to add to the picture.

· “To save Vakama, you must use your new skills and ablities, not be rid of them.” No duh. Can’t listen to your leader who has been telling you that for the last 30 minutes.

The End

• [*]Vakama is sick and tired of recalcitrant Toa who won’t listen to him, so what comes out of his mouth is “Bow down and pledge your allegiance…to me!” If he hadn’t added the addendum, “And…to Sidorak”, I’m almost certain that the other Toa would have done exactly as he said. Still running, Toa?[*]“Put me down.” Don’t pull me up to the level of truth. I don’t want to see what is. And I definitely don’t want you to either, you traitor.[*]In the final piece of irony, the first time Sidorak says something not prideful, he gets destroyed.[*]Then we have the second fall, which is stopped by Vakama, not by the Rahaga.[*]And then there is that famous Vakama quote: “For some reason, he doesn’t scare me anymore.” Makuta fought against his destiny; but Roodaka twisted and corrupted it. Roodaka is worse than Makuta; where Makuta failed to get Vakama to switch sides and become evil, Roodaka succeeded.[*]And then the magically appearing airships, which provide that round linkage of Matau driving something, which is exactly how we started.[*]End Matau’s Dream and Movie Three

Recently, I have been wondering about the role of Matoran in Mata Nui. The tasks that the Matoran in Mata Nui performed were supposed to sustain Mata Nui's mind. How did that happen? Why were those six elements needed?Also, what is the breakdown of Matoran elsewhere in the robot? Are they all of non-traditional elements? You would almost think that you eould have to have some Ta Matoran down there, the idea that Ta Metru can make masks for the entire robot is a bit far-fetched.

It may be that the machine (the robot) and the guiding spirit (Mata Nui) are two separate things. However, Mata Nui did not fully know that his mission was to reunite Spherus Magna until he sat in the GB's "power plant" and had a "system restore". See Journey's End. The purpose of the robot was stored in its "memory core" which didn't leave with Mata Nui. Where was that?

After seeing TLR, I don't think Lego should make any more movies.

Unless the writing is very good. And the characters don't make bad jokes all the time.

You know what, I seriously doubt that Lego can restrain itself from making bad jokes in any medium.-don't touch my pocket protector

I'm not sure they did that with some of the Bionicle Legends books. Mostly dark and grim. I would contest that statement - most of the bad jokes were in the movies; at least, the most noticeable ones, and the books were mostly clear of them.

It could still use more of an update, IMO. For one thing, that Glatorian ad could stand to be removed; does it even bring in revenue now that Bionicle's over?

No. But I wouldn't be to persnickety about it; I just want the hot topic indicator back, although leaving it offline does have its advantages.

I'm glad to see this epic back. More chapters, please.

Wow... these are really... deep. Guess I'll think more of these "straight to DVD kids' films." Good luck finding anything this deep in TLR.

Oh, you never know...I was going to come up with a response, but I believe I have been beaten. See below:

You've done it again! This time you've even gone so far as to drag the Miramax logo into your awesome insights. For Web of Shadows, I bet you'll successfully find a way to link the FBI warning into all this!

That made me laugh out loud.And I am sure she will."The FBI warning relates to this, in the sense that this film is not at all stolen, especially not from Star Wars."

You guys are making me laugh out loud. I never intended to drag the Miramax logo in, although, that city that is a part of it is a reflection of what you are about to see. And come on, saying that the "saving Vakama" scene is like Star Wars is like saying that MoL is like LotR. The film was made of cheese, but it had absolutely nothing to do with that.

Do I need to post my review of this movie now?

You do what you want. It was your decision to post your review of MoL, so it is your choice again. I have no part in it.

Matoran Sentience is a pretty steep debate. However, the GBs wanted their creation to survive for 100,000 years, which meant it had to adapt to change. To allow that to happen, they would have to make their creations at least partly organic. This led to emotion (mostly anger at inefficiency, to start)

^ This. This was why I thought they were prevented, somehow. Maybe they resisted destruction or they were created by a crazy GB that would not let the other Great Beings destroy them. That GB might be the one that went into the MU to observe...but now I am speculating.

How realistic are some of these plans?

If I want a theatrical movie, I want it on fresh story, like the future of Spherus Magna. See here.

No, I haven't noticed any plans for a HF movie, mostly because HF has such a shallow story that it doesn't lend itself well to a movie plot.Should there be one? Not in the tradition of the TV series. They are going to have to go much deeper than that for a movie plot - even the much-criticized Bionicle movies have more depth than the HF series. Would I like to see that kind of depth in HF? Absolutely. Could it be done? Sure. If TLG is willing to make a movie with enough depth to make it, then yes. Otherwise, no. As for the rest of what the movie should be like, I have no idea. Probably some muti-level quaza meltdown where the Heroes have to come up with some massively important part or they all die. Something like that.

Nice analysis, I however, doubt the team was so forward-thinking as to do all the above. Keep in mind this was a direct-to-CD production, not even screened in cinemas.

You are forgetting that this whole thing was the one movie overseen by Bob Thompson, the guy who invented Bionicle. He probably wanted to insert some foreshadowing in there so people would look back and say "Oh!".

I think you're over-thinking some of this a little. Lego made this movie to sell toys.What I don't get is why (disregarding how) Takanuva blasts the giant Mata Nui head into a giant Takua head. Was he feeling that conceited today?

I don't think it was a giant Mata Nui head...and I think the Takua head was concealed inside the rock, it was his light that revealed that hidden message, thus being consistent with the theme.

A lot of this is a bit far-fetched. Most of it is looking at mistakes as hidden messages, while the rest is just coincidence. However, I like your observation of the UDD symbol in energized protodermis.

See my response to the first quote. And Toa of Nerds, that is exactly my point. That intro animation was foreshadowing, but most of us would just skip over it for precisely th e reason you stated.