Vahkiti Master of Time

...(Also probably not the wisest idea to use the ERSB logos for something like this too; RP kind of implies that this game has been sent to the board. It's another branding/trademark thing. I doubt you'd get the same type of attention from them as you would LEGO, but that's something to be aware of).

I should also add that the artwork in the first post does not represent anything final, (though for the most part it is very close to it) and is open to any changes that may become necessary in the near or distant future should any legal issue arise for whatever reason. I agree that it is somewhat of a gray area, but not something that can't be sidestepped in a similar manner as the disk should it be necessary to do so.

 

 

This seems pretty interesting. Also, just so you guys know, you can get your own 3D printer. They'd probably take 5 to 7 hours to print something the size of the mask, unless it's almost paper thin. The bad thing is that the area where the model is touching the plane that the printer is printing on might have a grill pattern, but you can remove that.

 

Under most cases, the prints I've made do have something of a grain to them anyways just because of the way 3D printing works. However ordering it in polished plastic seems to get rid of this at the expense of dulling some of the sharper features. (eg: the mask code) That being said, I think injection moulding might still be  a better option, if not cheaper.

 

I also forgot to mention is that, at least with the home-grade 3D printer that I'm familiar with, I don't think you can do multiple colors.

 

Nor can you do that with Shapeways. The backpack isn't being made in three pieces just because. They need to be dyed separately.

This seems pretty interesting. Also, just so you guys know, you can get your own 3D printer. They'd probably take 5 to 7 hours to print something the size of the mask, unless it's almost paper thin. The bad thing is that the area where the model is touching the plane that the printer is printing on might have a grill pattern, but you can remove that.

Under most cases, the prints I've made do have something of a grain to them anyways just because of the way 3D printing works. However ordering it in polished plastic seems to get rid of this at the expense of dulling some of the sharper features. (eg: the mask code) That being said, I think injection moulding might still be  a better option, if not cheaper.

 

Question 1: If you donate $30 or more it is considered a preorder.

 

I addressed the last two questions in the other topic, but I'll reiterate here.

 

Question 2: As a matter of fact, we have spoken to Templar about this and it was fine by them the last time we talked.

 

Question 3: As I've said before, unless we sold MNOLG:CE for a higher price, we will not be making a profit on the bundle, and we don't intend to make a profit on it,l. This is just a fun project for us. All that being said, I do not think there is a problem with LEGO.

 

1. Preorder for the whole thing, I assume?

1a. Also, same vein, you guys said if the goal is met the Kanohi will be of higher quality than before. So will people who get the early masks be getting lower quality Kanohi?

1b. Will you guys be posting status updates are where you are donation-wise?

 

2. Are they aware you guys are selling it with their logos attached?

 

3. Selling something with a logo trademarked by a company is still getting money for using their logos, profit or no profit.

3a. If I bought this bundle, and sold it for the same price, would that be alright? Again, no sarcasm.

 

Yes, the entire bundle would be preordered for that price and up. As for the masks, nothing will be sold until we have a better idea of whether or not we can reach the funding goal. Shapeways is of lower quality than injection moulded parts, but do not take that as meaning that it is by any means BAD quality. Think of it more as the best quality given our current resources followed by top quality second only to Lego themselves should we reach our goal. Status updates will be posted just as with updates to the project itself. We're working out a way to put together a status bar for the top post, but we've all been a bit swamped with other priorities as of late.

Templar is aware of the method with which we're selling the game, they simply cannot speak for the reaction of Lego. However given that plenty of ACTUAL Lego products are sold and resold on places such as Ebay and the like, I doubt selling what basically amounts to a fan art piece would stir up any more controversy. 

Aaand with that addressed for the most part, since the topic has been bumped a bit, I think I'll use this opportunity to deviate slightly off topic and post the latest update the the backpack model. Not much has changed, but the straps have been spaced to fit the Tohunga head, and the shape of the bag has been sharpened a little bit. There will be some minor cosmetic changes involving the strap connector pegs, but overall it's pretty much done now and ready for prototyping.

So, I have some comments and questions regarding this project. (Oh, you knew I would)

 

1. So, after this $2000 kickstarter is funded, are people still gonna have to buy the mask/backpack/box pack? Or are they paying for it in advance now?

2. In what way did Templar approve of this? Did they allow the use of their logos on the packaging? Or will that even still remain?

3. Do you guys honestly think Lego will approve of you guys selling items with their imagery/logos on it? I'm seriously asking this, it's not a sarcastic remark.

 

With that out of the way, my comments will remain at "this looks like some shaky stuff". I can't say I know what the outcome with be, but I am curious to see the answers to the above questions.

 

Thanks.

 

With the exception of the Kickstarter question which obviously wasn't applicable back then, I seem to recall XONAR answered all of your questions here in the previous unofficial topic. As such, I'm sure he'll be around shortly to reiterate. To answer your first question however, yes, the Kickstarter is something of a preorder providing they contribute the specified amount to receive a copy.

 

Best I can recall, 2006 is when the oil crisis began. Set prices as a result skyrocketed that year because plastic is a petroleum product. To save costs around 2007, I believe LEGO switched to a cheaper plastic supplier. This on top of the slight changes in part design made for a disastrous combination.

Do we have any actual source for that or is it just speculation? I believe the LEGO Group is still using the same supplier they have been using for years, and have never heard anything to the contrary.

 

I don't recall where the info came from. It was told to me indirectly so take it with a grain of salt. It would make sense however since it was also around that time that colours began to change subtly for no reason. (eg: the grays became more pure with less green, some colours were retired entirely like Pohatu's shade of brown etc.) I'll have to look into it for the actual source.

Best I can recall, 2006 is when the oil crisis began. Set prices as a result skyrocketed that year because plastic is a petroleum product. To save costs around 2007, I believe LEGO switched to a cheaper plastic supplier. This on top of the slight changes in part design made for a disastrous combination.

Will the music go on BioMediaProject?

Providing Templar is still as approving of BMP as they were last I talked to them, yes!

In quite an ironic turn of events, I am actually one of those people now. I guess you could say I took some time off the forum for about 5 years. When I came back recently, I found that I never really have much of anything to say. I generally don't post on a topic unless I have something significant to contribute.

The 3D prototypes look great, but will the backpack fit over the McToran body (without interfering with it or the head)? The render looks like it wouldn't fit with the head (which I had forgotten was so snug against the body until seeing the pics of the Matoran with the prototype mask).

Thanks for bringing this up! For some reason not one of us even noticed this fundamental flaw with the design. I'll bring it to Vrahno's attention immediately. XD

 

 

Since we're planning to dye the masks to light blue after they've been printed in milky-white plastic, could you explain how that process will work?

I http://xonar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/IMG_02032014_141609.png

I'm surprised XONAR is keeping all these screenshots from MY computer.. I would appreciate it if you would stop leaking those out. I will put them up myself in due time if they are necessary.

 

Anyways, I haven't tested it yet, but it doesn't seem overly complicated. Put the mask in the dye, leave it for a few minutes, take it out. I've heard that's how it works anyways, but I won't be able to test until after I move at the end of the month and my finances sort themselves out. All prototyping and testing has so far come out of either my, or XONAR's pockets alone.

 

Alternatively it could be painted like this. It was my first experiment with 3D printing. (The same mask I'm wearing in my avatar, but after being painted) However on a small scale, it might not look as nice and could be easily damaged.

 

Can I buy that or a copy?

 

Unfortunately not.

 

Anyways, considering that Shapeways prints in a very porous, rough plastic that is really nothing like the clean, smooth masks we're all used to, injection moulding is an option we might consider if we had the means of doing so. Given that we'd have a choice of colours, (I think) it would probably save us some money even if it was slightly more expensive.

 

There is a way to smoothen the surface of rough 3D printed parts, you might want to have a look at this:

 

Well Shapeways offers smoothed plastic as well, but in that process, it also dulls some of the sharper details. Either way the mask is going to be somewhat lower in quality than what normal Lego parts would be should we stick with them.

All I can say is that I'm really, really looking forward to this.

 

About the music - I know you've talked to Peter Mack, and he was the one who explained how a lot of the original files were missing - but have you contacted the composer, Justin Luchter, directly? He may know something Mack didn't, or has since made some sort of progress recovering the files. Just a thought.

I haven't, no. I'm not sure how I would get a hold of him directly since I've never found his contact info. I haven't been in contact with any of them for a few months now honestly. They have a tendency to vanish of the face of the earth for extended periods of time.

I think a Kickstarter would be worth a try. Financial backing like that could be a real asset. A reward tier at $30-40 (or however the predicted cost ends up being) could actually be the bundle itself, which might be a good incentive to get people to back you from the beginning. You could then put one a bit higher, at $50-60, which could be the bundle plus another [cool but relatively inexpensive thing]; that way, people are essentially buying the game [plus the thing] but pumping additional funds into the project. There's all the usual stuff like name in the credits, some sort of exclusive (and basic) download content. Maybe one reward tier could include the soundtrack which (if you're doing an updated soundtrack) you could also sell separately after the game's release to help pay for it?

 

You could also think about reward tiers involving some kind of forum badge here or on SolisMagna, or something forum-based like that (not necessarily a badge, it just came to mind as I got one for the FXHome forums after pledging to the Kickstarter for a piece of VFX software). They also offered mouse pads, t-shirts and postcards, but those would probably end up being too much effort and expense when all you're trying to produce is a game!

 

I don't know if this is any use, but it might be worth a read.

 

I've never run a Kickstarter campaign myself, so this is all conjecture from ones that I have seen, and the one project I have backed, but I think if you know what you're doing it's actually quite straightforward. You might want to talk to someone who's run a successful campaign. An acquiantance of mine got full backing (and then some) for his brickfilm Melting Point, and you can talk to him from the links here. I hope all this helps!

 

On a side note, didn't you work on BionicleNextGen at one point? I haven't seen you around in ages.

 

I did indeed, though I had to take a massive hiatus from that (which I ended up leaving) and BZP because of school and later college coming first. Now that both are well and truly over, I'm enjoying being able to spend my free time more...freely. That said, university starts at the end of September.

 

That Vahi is a beaut, by the way. I wish I had a 3D printer now.

 

Thinking about it, if Kickstarter becomes a viable option, you could have a limited quantity reward tier of [a lot of money] where the reward is the bundle and stuff from the others, but also a Vahi. You'd then need to make three or four new Vahis (obviously you'd never send out your own!) but it might work as a reward - a life-size, wearable Vahi.

 

Also, silly silly silly question, but will this work on Mac? I'll have access to a PC anyway by January (I think) but for now, my household is entirely Mac-based.

 

Another silly question that may have already been answered, but will you be updating the music?

 

Sorry if I seem over-eager but this is an awesome project!

Well XONAR seems on board with the whole Kickstarter thing, so I think we will definitely give it a shot! Thanks for all the info. I'll look over the page you sent and try to get in contact with your friend for some tips.

Were you on the 3D team or the 2D team? I never did anything in the way of animation, but I was set to be a voice actor at the time. The Vahi was actually modeled by somebody you might know, 00dude00. Back before I got in contact with Vrahno for this project, I originally shot him an email asking if he'd like to join us, but I never heard back. Doing so likely would have driven up the cost however since he charged me for the Vahi. Vrahno surprisingly is doing this for free. I'll definitely at LEAST send him a copy of the bundle anyways when it's all done.

We would LIKE to update the music. We've been in contact with Templar about a soundtrack release, (through them and BioMediaProject, likely not us. ) and possibly acquiring the original samples for this as well. While they are interested in the soundtrack, and were actually planning a release of their own this summer, last I heard they ran into a snag. Namely the fact that over time, many of the original files were lost, and there's no way to get them back other than reproducing them from scratch, hence our need for sound people if we wanted to update the audio. It's an unfortunate bump in the road, but certainly not one that will ruin the project. 

...What kind of dyes are these? Are they relatively expensive, then?

Each small bottle is approximately $4, but I'll need to buy at least two colours and mix them to get the one desired. In addition, if mass production begins with this technique, I'll need to upgrade to the 5lb jug which bumps up the price of each colour to $77. So I'm HOPING that when we get that far, demand will match the price needed for supplies.  

Since we're planning to dye the masks to light blue after they've been printed in milky-white plastic, could you explain how that process will work?

I http://xonar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/IMG_02032014_141609.png

I'm surprised XONAR is keeping all these screenshots from MY computer.. I would appreciate it if you would stop leaking those out. I will put them up myself in due time if they are necessary.

Anyways, I haven't tested it yet, but it doesn't seem overly complicated. Put the mask in the dye, leave it for a few minutes, take it out. I've heard that's how it works anyways, but I won't be able to test until after I move at the end of the month and my finances sort themselves out. All prototyping and testing has so far come out of either my, or XONAR's pockets alone.

Alternatively it could be painted like this. It was my first experiment with 3D printing. (The same mask I'm wearing in my avatar, but after being painted) However on a small scale, it might not look as nice and could be easily damaged.

 

 

Wow, what kind of printer are you using? That Pakari is beautiful!

 

For the moment, Shapeways. It's rather expensive at close to $17 a mask not including the cost of dyes, but we're exploring other options. XONAR has a store near his location that will do it, possibly for cheaper. We still need to look into that.

 

Actually, since you have the physical prototype (or is it the final product), is casting copies via a mold a possible alternative you're exploring?

 

It is still in the prototype phase. The mask itself is a bit thin, and I'm still debating whether or not it should still be a bit bigger, (the first prototype didn't even match up with the eyes. XD)

Anyways, considering that Shapeways prints in a very porous, rough plastic that is really nothing like the clean, smooth masks we're all used to, injection moulding is an option we might consider if we had the means of doing so. Given that we'd have a choice of colours, (I think) it would probably save us some money even if it was slightly more expensive.

This looks fantastic! How much will the bundle cost, and will you be shipping internationally? I live in the UK.

 

I can't wait to see this come to fruition.

 

Have you thought about crowdfunding via Kickstarter? If you can publicise it well, then you'd get funded very quickly I'm sure. This is something a lot of BIONICLE fans will want to see come alive!

The bundle we imagine will be somewhere between $30 and $40. We won't know for sure until the backpack is done and I can get the printing price off Shapeways. It is a bit pricey, I know, but the Pakari alone minus the cost of dyes is a whopping $17. In any case, as long as the cost of shipping is covered by the buyer as well, I see no reason not to ship worldwide.

We hadn't really thought of Kickstarter, but come to think of it, I'm not sure we'd really have anything to lose by giving it a shot. I'll talk to XONAR about it next time he's online.

On a side note, didn't you work on BionicleNextGen at one point? I haven't seen you around in ages.

If I recall, the whole reason for the transformation into Tohunga form was because the pods damaged them and sapped their energy. The energy level of a Matoran could be determined by the saturation of their colours, but then some regions had lighter colours than others so.. it's hard to say I guess. 

I never finished it honestly. I liked the game that I played, but I found the controls incredibly unintuitive and actually quite painful to use given enough time. It was like playing Burnout on the original Xbox with the super fat original controller, except somehow worse. You know you're doing something wrong when your game is so difficult to play that you require a custom base stand to do it without getting carpal tunnel syndrome. And this is on a PORTABLE console. We're getting into VirtualBoy territory now. It felt like I was playing a third person Metroid Prime Hunters or Bionicle Heroes DS.

Don't get me wrong, I WANTED to like it, but the game itself was fighting against the structure of the human hand and just wouldn't let me, so I ultimately ended up taking it back after like.. the third world. Maybe when there's a 3DS emulator, or Virtual Console service in the far off future where it doesn't take a contortionist to play it, I'll give it another shot, but not today.

Wow, what kind of printer are you using? That Pakari is beautiful!

For the moment, Shapeways. It's rather expensive at close to $17 a mask not including the cost of dyes, but we're exploring other options. XONAR has a store near his location that will do it, possibly for cheaper. We still need to look into that.

Oh really. Funny how that works.

 

I wanted to post this image, originally provided by XONAR in PrismWind's topic, again in this topic.

 

IMAGE REMOVED TO SAVE SPACE

 

I actually have a slightly clearer photo I took today. I was going to post it right away, but I figured the 3D renders would suffice until the backpack prototype was completed. Oh well. Here it is anyways:

As you can see, I still need to buy the proper dyes to colourize the mask. This will likely take place either whenever I move and then can afford to order them, or if anybody can provide the necessary funding before then. Either way, it'll likely be sometime in August before this is 100% completed.

The progress on the backpack is not as far along, but it's getting there. This screenshot was taken before the straps were added, but little has changed to the pack itself since then. Right now, it's more or less just a mockup. It will be hollowed out and streamlined a bit before printing a prototype. It will also come in three pieces: The pack itself and the two straps attaching like the Battle Droid minifigure arms.

 

 

That would be great. Even though it's mainly been a collaboration between you, XONAR, and Vrahno, it's being publicized on SM.com as a core part of the project, and it's in the best interest of the site to be linked to as often as the opportunities present themselves.

 

You know, it's funny. I just took a look at the post in question, and noticed XONAR pretty well copied and pasted that post as the description of the project here. Oh well. Copied or not, it's still descriptive enough I guess. Haha!

 

Are you referring to your first post in this topic?

 

Yeah, with the exception of the legal bit at the end, it's basically the same as his post in PrismWind's thread. As I said, we collaborated on this topic, I just figured he wrote all that from scratch. 

 

That would be great. Even though it's mainly been a collaboration between you, XONAR, and Vrahno, it's being publicized on SM.com as a core part of the project, and it's in the best interest of the site to be linked to as often as the opportunities present themselves.

 

You know, it's funny. I just took a look at the post in question, and noticed XONAR pretty well copied and pasted that post as the description of the project here. Oh well. Copied or not, it's still descriptive enough I guess. Haha!

 

Looks like a great project, but I do have to wonder how legal it is. I guess if the 3D stuff is your own work and the game is free, you may not have a problem, but it's hard to say.

...Vahkiti, you might want to add that the MNOLG:CE will be a release from SolisMagna.com, particularly because it is intended to be our main product for the foreseeable future.

I shall do that when I get home. To be fair though, XONAR did write most of this himself. Chrome crashed before I could post my version of the topic this morning, so we collaborated on this one.