Canama

I guess I have to just take this one day at a time.

On 12/18/2021 at 11:17 PM, Mushy the Mushroom said:

This is my favorite blog title on the whole site.

it used to be "why is this blog so wide" before recent developments

On 12/24/2021 at 10:23 PM, V-Dawg said:

Did anything actually change?

for reasons i never figured out, my blog's main page was rendered really, really wide. like, there was a scroll bar for scrolling left and right, and it was loooong. this went on for a while. then one day in december 2021 i checked in and it had shrank back to normal blog proportions

good god was this really after my very first infusion? thinking back i'm pretty sure it was.

still getting em more than eleven years on. the more things change...

It's funny how I went from loving the game when I made this entry to detesting it now

It's funny because rereading this now I don't think I was hard enough on that game

Deus Ex is best game

Articulates it a lot better than I could.

It was an analogy for demonstrating the helpfulness of the responses, not for comparing the errors that led to them. Whether the person is bad at math or ignorant and deceived, shouting at them does not educate. Shouting is not public outreach.

But it was a poor one, as I detailed. The problems are not in the same neighborhood, and equating them is offensive and wrong. Don't.

Here's an analogy that might help with the discussion:

 

A math teacher asks her student what five times five equals. The child tells her, "Twenty-four!" How should the teacher reply?

 

There are two primary ways. 1. "Actually, [insert name here], the answer is 'twenty-five'. But that was really close! You see, just think of it this way: there are five sets of five, so it goes five...ten...fifteen...twenty...twenty-five. And there you go!" 2. "Are you stupid? The answer is 'twenty-five'. Are you literally incapable of functioning at the level of your classmates? They have it figured out, but you can't even figure out a simple times table!"

Those are not equivalent scenarios. A child making a simple mistake in mathematics cannot be considered equivalent to hatred, bigotry, and the denial of one's rights to live as an individual. In fact, it's both absurd and insulting.

 

Canama, I essentially agree with you, and you pretty much accused me of siding with the KKK. I just don’t know how to respond to this. I’m sorry that we don’t see eye to eye, but please keep the discussion civil.

 

Thank you and goodnight.

You misread what I typed. I said that asking us to not treat homophobes like bigots is like asking us to not treat a member of the KKK as a bigot. I made no specific accusations towards you or anyone else.

That goes to B6, too - I made no specific accusations anywhere in that post.

 

Canama, if you truly believe that certain BZP members, like members of the Ku Klux Klan, harrass people, shout demeaning slurs at them in public, burn crosses in their front yards, murder them, and generally comport themselves in a manner that qualifies them as a terrorist organization, I'm going to have to ask for some evidence on that front. If you can provide none, then I will have to conclude that you are not being asked to make peace with the Klan. You're being asked to make peace with your fellow BZP members, and to handle your new duties in a calm, rational manner. If someone who makes an ignorant comment in coming to you to get a better understanding of something automatically triggers the "this person is equivalent to the KKK" response in your mind, then I have some serious concerns.

The KKK is still around, you know - they don't kill people anymore or do other terrorist stuff (mainly just rallies now), but they are still active as a hate group. I think it's a pretty apt comparison.

 

Let's say that someone makes a homophobic comment. Whether or not they did so purposefully is, for the moment, irrelevant. Let's just say it happens. If our first response is to call them a "bigot" and accuse them of hate crimes, it's unlikely they'll come to a place of understanding. All it will do is rile up emotions and pit people against each other.

I sort of wanted to touch on this particular statement.

 

When someone posts something discriminatory against a group of people, that individual -- whether they like it or not -- is acting like a bigot. Sometimes these people are bigots and it's relatively obvious to tell the difference between the two. Calling someone a bigot is not an "insult" it's a correct term applied to a person acting in such a manner. If they wish not to be called a bigot, or equated to them, then they ought to heed the posts telling them off and actively apologize and try to make right with those wronged. If they don't do this and just complain that they're being insulted when, in actuality, they are not... then they wouldn't attempt to learn even if they were approached without the term.

 

Calling someone a "bigot" is definitely not even close to the scale of even just regular insults, barring hate-speech and slurs. It's a real, real, real term used to describe a particular mindset and behavior. It's -not- an insult. If you think it is an insult and someone calls you it, then figure out how to correct your behavior so the label is no longer accurate to describe your behavior, mindset, or outlook.

 

"Sexist" is not an insult, either. It's another term applied to describe a behavior, mindset and outlook displayed by a person. People can be, and are, sexist. Just like there are those who are bigots.

 

These terms are accurate terms to describe a behavior, outlook and mindset. If these people are upset by being accurately described, then they really should figure out what they need to do to make it so it's no longer accurate (You know, by not being sexist/bigoted) and not complain about someone applying an accurate label to their behavior.

 

I am sorry, but those two terms are absolutely not on the level of the standard insult, and are leagues upon leagues away from even being close to some of the slurs and statements I have seen members here make on these very boards, and off of them. While I am totally for education, calling these particular terms "insults", in the end, makes it harder to actually educate.

 

That's what I was getting at with the bit about the KKK, though you worded it much better than me.

Again: the fact that you are comparing bullying to systemic discrimination like they're equivalent is rude and demeaning. Cut it out. OK? I got bullied bad, believe me. A lot of my issues with depression and anxiety stem from it. But that is not the same as being someone who is hated by a large number of people for the "crime" of existing; who gets no respite. We leave school, and the bullying ends. You can't leave sexism or racism or homophobia or transphobia, because they pervade everything.

Second, I refuse to make a concession to someone who refuses to see myself or people I care about as human beings. I'm sure you would agree that a black person would be justified in being angry at the Ku Klux Klan. Well, you're asking us to make peace with the Klan. You're asking us to treat the Klan like a rational entity. Do you see how absurd this is? I'm sure you'd agree that calling a Klansman a "bigot" is a statement of fact; well, so too is calling a homophobe or transphobe a "bigot".

Finally, I'm gonna repeat this three times, in hopes that you finally get it. I'll even put it in all-caps to make it stand out. Here goes:

IT IS NOT THE PLACE OF THE PRIVILEGED TO TELL THE OPPRESSED HOW TO ACT

IT IS NOT THE PLACE OF THE PRIVILEGED TO TELL THE OPPRESSED HOW TO ACT

IT IS NOT THE PLACE OF THE PRIVILEGED TO TELL THE OPPRESSED HOW TO ACT

I think xccj has hit the nail on the head here.

 

Education starts with understanding, and no one is going to want to understand someone who calls them names. I am in no way demeaning the struggles that many people have gone through; I know there are people here who have been bullied and hurt because of who they are, and that is not acceptable. But, like xccj has said, fighting fire with fire will not encourage understanding.

 

Let's say that someone makes a homophobic comment. Whether or not they did so purposefully is, for the moment, irrelevant. Let's just say it happens. If our first response is to call them a "bigot" and accuse them of hate crimes, it's unlikely they'll come to a place of understanding. All it will do is rile up emotions and pit people against each other.

 

If, instead, the first response was to calmly state that the comment was offensive and why it was offensive, without directly attacking the person who said it, the commenter will be much more likely to come to a place of understanding. They don't feel threatened; they realize that they were making others feel threatened.

 

Let me bring in an example from my own life. A friend of mine used to use the word gay in a derogatory way. If something didn't go his way, he'd say "That's so gay!" or something equivalent. When I mustered up the courage to talk to him about it, he was surprised. He had never realized how derogatory it was; it was just a word that he had grown up hearing his family using, and he'd copied them. When he learned it wasn't okay, he did his best to stop using the word in a derogatory context.

 

But if I had attacked him, calling him a bigot and telling him he was a terrible person, how would he have responded? I don't know, but I doubt it would have turned out the way it did. Being attacked would have made him feel like he was the victim, giving him an excuse to justify his behaviour.

 

Granted, there are some people who deliberately hurt others, and those people deserve to be punished. But from what I can tell, most people have no idea of the power of their words. When someone tells them they are being homophobic, they are often genuinely surprised.

 

Confronting their behaviour makes them realize it's not okay. Confronting them, however, makes them feel like they're being attacked, and that puts them on the defensive, and they start trying to justify themselves, which is what leads to arguments. Calling someone's words bigoted is very different from calling the person a bigot.

 

Very often I have seen comments that I agree with, but the way they are presented makes me feel uncomfortable agreeing with them. Someone can be totally in the right, but the way they present their opinion can make them sound completely wrong.

 

Again, I'm not trying to minimize the issue here. I understand many people have been hurt and bullied by homophobic people, and it is not okay. I'm not saying that the victims are the problem: you're not. This is not your fault, and you fully have the right to be angry and hurt because of how people have treated you. Don't misunderstand me here. I have friends whose lives have been ruined because of hateful speech and actions; just thinking about it makes me angry. But if we want this to stop once and for all, we need to start with making them understand. And that can only happen if everybody lets down their defences.

 

It's late, and I have a feeling I missed something and everyone's going to jump all over me for something I said. I'll just say that I agree with xccj, and props to Princess Grr and the Gender Squad for what they're doing.

What Eyru [a self-referential name] said, which is what I was thinking in better writting.

 

I am curious: Did either of you read what I said at all?

If you did, both of you missed the point. Reread it.

Look.

I know that one of the major goals of this is reeducating people. It's why I signed on. I want the world to be a better place, and if I can just change one person's mind in for the better in my life then I will consider myself successful.

But that does not mean I should have to tolerate intolerance, even if the intolerance is unintentional. It does not mean I should have to put up with being dehumanized, even if the dehumanization is unintentional. It does not mean I should have to put up with being demeaned, even if the demeaning is unintentional.

And you know what? I won't. I refuse to. I'm done.

And you think I've got issues, I have gone through nothing compared to some of the nice folks in our little squad. (For instance, did you know that the author of Attak on Bionicles, one of the comics in the current contest, was attacked offsite with transphobic slurs for having the audacity of being in the lead? Did you know she had a literal, honest-to-God HATE CRIME committed against her?) I can scoot by in life in a position of privilege, more or less. But some of the people whose struggles you are (however unintentionally) belittling live their lives in fear. And you have the nerve, the audacity to tell them they should remain calm about it.

I want you to consider, really truly consider, the implications of what you are saying.

This is frankly sounding pretty victim-blamey.

And again, as I said before:

It is not the PLACE or the RIGHT of the oppressors to tell the oppressed to behave. And finally, criticizing people for actions that are bigoted and wrong does not victimize them. I am confused as to how such a conclusion could be reached.

 

And yeah, to Jinkmeister - it is not your place to tell the oppressed how to act.

I'm speaking from experience. I've never been oppressed the way you have, certainly. But I do go through struggles, such as at work. I have several coworkers that never fail to insult or belittle me when they get a chance...and instead of snapping at them, I just say "yeah, you're probably right". Even if it doesn't stop them, I know I came out on top. And those around me that are actually respectful human beings see it, and those are the people that matter.

 

I can never identify with the struggle you guys go through...but I do know I hate seeing this site, and this world torn apart by these issues. If we focus on being good people, and treating every single person with respect, regardless of where they stand, we're the winners.

 

I haven't been nearly as oppressed as a lot of the people you're belittling. Keep that in mind.

And no, having your feelings hurt DOES NOT COUNT AS OPPRESSION. It is insulting that you would argue that it does.

And if we do not do anything, nothing will change. There is no place for passivity.

There is such thing as righteous anger, yes. But in our culture, we're progressively moving toward a more accepting world...so anger is losing its place in the fight against oppression. It's now at the stage where I feel like name calling does nothing but alienate and degrade people...going against everything this movement stands for. It's time for both sides to be more kind and caring of those that disagree with them. A kind word does so much more than a thousand wicked ones. Besides, if someone insults you, what better feeling then to say "yeah, maybe you're right,". He's now lost all his fuel. Then he really has nothing to come back with.

Allow me to repeat:

You do not have the right to tell the oppressed how they ought to act. If they want to show rightfully-placed anger, who are you to tell them not to?

And finally, anger will and should always have a place in the fight against oppression.

 

 

You may not changed his mind, but now he respects you so much more

 

I have not seen it always work out this way.

I have never seen it work out this way. Not once.

And yeah, to Jinkmeister - it is not your place to tell the oppressed how to act.

So do you actually have T-Shirts?

I wish.

Facebook is viewing this. Maybe I can educate Facebook to stop showing me ads for cleaning products just because I'm a woman.

But that would require people to stop with blatant stereotyping and actually treat people as individuals! We can't have that! Anything but that!

 

 

 

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

 

Saying "there are worse problems in the world than what you're facing, so stop complaining about yours" is not exactly welcoming us with open arms.

 

 

I never said that either. I said there are people dying because of who they are, and we need to work together to stop it.

 

But you also used it as an excuse to say "See, I'm totally tolerant" while at the same time markedly refusing to be totally tolerant. It doesn't work like that. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

I've been fairly silent on a lot of these goings on but I figure that now would be a good time to step in and talk.

I like the sentiment here, but I am also concerned about the 'if you aren't with me, you are against me' mentality. I know for a fact that many people that are on my side of the aisle (the political right) are strongly supportive of the right for gay people to live their lives how they please. We may not all support gay marriage or civil unions, and we may not all see it as 'right', but the vast majority of us will absolutely defend the right for you to live how you please.

I want you to read very, very carefully what you just wrote there, because it's an inherent contradiction. You say that we are free to live our lives as we please, so long as it does not offend your sensibilities or notion of right or wrong. So long as we don't offend you, we are free to do as we wish. So long as we don't do the things you don't want us to do, we have your support.

 

Do you not see how wrong that is? Can you not see how I am being dehumanized? Can you not see how I cannot live my life as a normal human being just because you don't like who I am? Why can't I celebrate the same things that you? Why am I not allowed to experience the joys of marriage just because I would choose to do so with a man. Why can't I experience life like a normal person just because I find girls just as cute as guys? Why do I not feel like a normal human being even though I know I am? Why am I stuck being a second class citizen?

 

Do you not see the lunacy of it? Do you not see the madness? Do you not see how you are essentially saying, "I completely disagree with you as a person and who you are, but I still support you except for basic rights that everyone else enjoys." Do you not see it? You are delegating me to the closet. You are telling me to stay in there. You are telling me that you support me in everything I do, so long as you don't see it because you might be offended.

 

You are not an ally. You are not helping us. Your message is not comforting. It does not make me feel good. It does not fill me with confidence. It does not make me feel normal. It does not make me feel like a human being.

 

Whether you are willing to recognize it or not, Toa Nidhiki05, you are a part of the problem.

 

I've never said any of that. I never said you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend me, and I never said you should hide who you are if it offends me. I really, really don't know where you read that from my comment. You know what? I think you should be able to do whatever you want, even if I disagree with it. You should be able to live your live as you wish, just as I can live life the way I wish. As for the marriage thing, my stance on marriage is exactly what Barack Obama's was in 2008. It may not be 100% what you agree with, but it is far closer than you may think.

 

That aside, your reaction really disappoints me. I'm suggesting everyone team up to stop oppressive regimes in the middle east from executing gay people. How is that not something we should and can work to end? Why focus only on the plight of gay people here? America is not the only place in the world. In virtually every middle-eastern country it is either a crime to be homosexual or you will be killed for it. I want that inhuman barbarity to end. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what is. If you don't want or accept the help of people who may not agree with you 100%, I doubt those problems will resolve any time soon, and that is a crying shame. All that does is spread the alienation between us, and that doesn't do anything to solve problems.

 

Saying "there are worse problems in the world than what you're facing, so stop complaining about yours" is not exactly welcoming us with open arms.

 

 

Because I don't want to read the comments for the last section, I will comment here, and only on what we agree upon.

 

There is definitely a problem with the treatment of LGBT people. Too many people treat them as if they're not people at all. Now, everybody knows what I think about the whole issue, but I am sick and tired of hearing people describe them with curse words and just treat them in a poor manner in general. I don't support what they work for, but given the opportunity, I will defend them from persecutors, just as I would defend someone who is being treated wrong for elements of their religion (for instance, my sisters wearing skirts all of the time, which earns them much ridicule on the part of their soccer teammates and so forth.)

 

And that's as far as I care to discuss the issue right now.

Is this... really necessary right now

 

Like I get what you're trying to say, and congratulations on actually having something resembling a conscience I guess

 

But the whole thing just sort of comes off as "hey everyone I am still a vile homophobe, and I have no issue with directly contributing to the problem in other ways, but I am still sort of a decent person, please believe me on this"

 

Next time you want to sound sympathetic for the stuff LGBT people have to deal with, MAYBE consider not prefacing it with a reminder that you still think they totally suck

 

 

Gonna have to agree with this.

 

For real. It's a copout; it pretends to be apology but yeah not really. It's a refusal to respect Grr disguised a promise to do so.

 

Stereotypes come from a combination of incidents. Everything that depicts it is part of the problem.

 

And no fiction is made in a vacuum.

 

Keep that in mind.

A stereotype in and of itself is not bad though, because it would not have become a stereotype if there were not some truth to it.

 

There is a difference between using a stereotype for comedic effect and using it with the intent to hurt someone, that is what should really be kept in mind.

 

Oh my god, you did not just use the classic bigot argument, the "of course it's true, how'd you think it became a stereotype" one. I'm gonna pretend that never happened, for the sake of my sanity.

I'd argue that there is no distinction in the cases you listed. It promotes compartmentalized thinking about wide demographics. That is inherently hurtful.

Stereotypes come from a combination of incidents. Everything that depicts it is part of the problem.

And no fiction is made in a vacuum.

Keep that in mind.