The Best Display Name

So the smart thing now to do would be for every player to claim their role to the dead innocents, but the problem is everyone would be too lazy.

You're forgetting one thing--we've been doing this for what, forty plus games now? We know exactly the capabilities of someone who's not alive. It's been quite beneficial. "Isn't beneficial" as in makes the game imbalanced, not helps the town out. Edit: But then again, after thinking about it, since the dead people don't know everyone's roles, then it's a smaller difference than I thought, since that's something I didn't consider. If detective claims to dead person, and mafia also claims detective, and if they keep feeding reports, that's the same sort of idea as detective claiming in the topic, except, the mafia can't see the detective's reports, so can accidentally clear some innocents by innocenting some of the same people as detective. Actually, yeah, I still think it's imbalanced, but not as bad as I thought it was.

If the detective dies, he is not able to reveal what he knows. If he's getting lynched, he should tell people he's detective, and if people won't change their votes (which they should, unless there's a counter claim to detective), he should out his reports before he dies. That's one of the reasons why you want to out him so he doesn't die, or can evidence out earlier. The doctor doesn't need to PM him, the doctor just needs to anonymously heal him, because as you said, there's no guarantee that the person who PMs is the real doctor. Yes the mafians can get plain lucky and kill the detective or doctor. That's one of the reasons detective outs day one. Also, that's when play gets a bit different, but since I didn't want to confuse everyone, I didn't go into scenarios where either doctor or detective dies. I'll try and go through what happens when detective claims day 1 and a villager has died. If mafia counterclaims: Don't lynch either detective, get them to tell guilties when they have them, and to reveal all reports on lynch or lose. In the meantime, doc will try to save those who didn't claim detective, and town can judge people for their reactions and who they vote. In scenarios with smaller amounts of players, yes it's more acceptable to lynch a detective, but I won't go into that. If mafia kills detective, you lynch the counterclaim, and it's 1 for 1. Since there's a lot of players and few town power roles, this is a bit unbalanced for town, but this is the part where you rely on doctor/scumhunting. Power roles are useful not just because of their abilities, but because they can make themselves confirmed innocent by claiming, or making it 50/50 if someone counterclaims. If mafia doesn't counterclaim: Detective leads the lynch each day, making sure the town doesn't lynch his innocents. Doctor continuously heals the detective. The detective, keeps his innocents secret until the day when outting all reports will mean autowin. This is heavily townsided and is exactly why mafia should counterclaim. Edit: But yes, "where do you draw the line" is an issue, and that's why mafia is usually way fairer and funner realtime.

If there is only one detective claim, it either means the detective has claimed or that a traitor has claimed and the detective has not (because of lack of skill). And he shouldn't get killed because doctor should immediately save him. If the doctor doesn't save him, it's because of a lack of skill. I don't doubt that some of the players here are the best of BZP. And I'm sure you have won your side over, but I'm sure at the beginning of the game it was random lynches and you had to hope with all your heart that doc and detective didn't die. It's fair to talk about the game to other people who are dead, but it's unfair for the living to use the dead to further them in the game. I'm taking advantage of the fact that there's no rule against this. I figure if it causes town to win quickly, you may consider why it isn't beneficial. So I'm not saying it's not fair that people shouldn't talk when they're dead, but they shouldn't give away information that influences the game. The problem is that it's so subjective to what is giving away things, that it's completely fairer to have dead people not talk in the topic. So the optimal situation is to have dead allowed to talk, but not influence the game and give advice. Extra roles make the gameplay different, I'll agree on that, but it doesn't stop dead people revealling stuff they shouldn't, otherwise.

It's not the game, it's just frustrating when you're trying to tell me that BZP mafia is different to any other mafia because of players who don't care, I explain why, and then you tell me "it's just a game", as if saying that somehow justifies what you've been saying this whole time. I'll use an example. It's like me telling you "1+1=2" and you say "no it isn't". I explain why and you say "no no, this is BZP math, this is different because people here don't take math seriously." I then explain why it doesn't matter, and then you say "you take math crazy seriously more so than is needed."

But...that's gg for mafia. Detective claims to me with reports. Doctor claims to me. I tell doctor who detective is. I tell everyone guilties and not innocents until lynch or lose. Easy mode. But people will say "oh it won't work because detective won't PM me." Then it just comes down to bad players, and that's the only reason no one can reason their lynches or what they want. BZP mafia is getting rid of an important rule just because people get bored and they're not smart enough to autowin because it's not there? That's unbelievably frustrating. BZP Mafia is just proper mafia with people who don't take it seriously. The reason this setup is so straightforward is because of the lack of roles. Just because BZP players don't take mafia seriously doesn't mean I'm inexperienced in any way. You talk about mafia here as if it's different just because people aren't as good. The only way you can win with players who don't care on your side is luck. I don't like playing a game of luck, I prefer playing a game of skill. Edit: Or you're only saying all this because you're mafia. I hope that's it.

Yay, I looked so smart I was killed! I've also been through this. This is what is supposed to happen. That way, the mafia can't kill the real detective without revealing their detective claim as fake, unless the sacrifice is worth it. The doctor keeps healing someone who isn't a detective claim. The detectives reveal when they have a guilty, not an innocent, because mafia can just kill the innocent. Yes, you don't know which detective to trust 100%, but that's where skill comes in. At lynch or lose, the detectives reveal all their reports and the town can make a evidence based judgement. This where the skill comes in. Some people may be clear if the detectives both say they're innocent, which helps narrow it down, and helps in later days. This isn't some special plan I've come up with, this is standard play. The only reason it has less chance of working is because of inexperienced players who don't yet understand how mafia works, and that's the exact reason I'm trying to explain. What happens shouldn't benefit town, but make the game revolve around skill, rather than luck. The reason I'm bringing it up is because I know mafia will definitely not know how to respond correctly and will easily be owned. Now if the rules were thought over, they'd specify that dead people don't have the ability to talk about the game.

Detective claims. Doctor knows who he is, and heals him. Detective does not know who doctor is, nor does he need to. There is no risk of doctor outting himself.

Ah, I see what you guys mean, but it just sounds like the situation is dealing with inexperienced or not serious players. In that case, there's nothing you can really do, it just comes down to chance or pure scumhunting, which is kind of lame. If you can't rely on the doctor, then doctor may as well be like a villager. And if you can't rely on the detective, he's pretty much a villager too. Which means we have nothing to go from except looking at rushing, appealing to emotion etc., which are more unreliable than solid evidence. But, honestly, the best thing you can do is try to explain stuff to everyone. Even the not serious players wouldn't mind winning, and the inexperienced just need to be told a bit more. Since we're probably going to lose because of dodgy townies anyway, then we might as well try and play strategically, and nothing is lost. I mean surely if everyone was shouting "DOCTOR HEAL THE DETECTIVE" he'd get the point and succumb to peer pressure right? Right!?

I'm not sure you understand. If detective claims, doctor can just heal him, which means he doesn't die. This is why traitors must also claim detective, otherwise it is an easy win for the town.There is no "the way it works here", there is universal logic that applies even here.

Zakaro, you better put decent roles in your mafia. You won't need a suspect list because the roles will give you solid clues to work with. We just lynched an innocent. Moral? Get the detective to claim. We need evidence to work with, not baseless accusations.

The logic still applies. I release you from this anti-logic spell.

Well, otherwise detective wouldn't claim and we wouldn't get anywhere haha.

This means the detective cannot reveal himself. This is why we have ignored your post. I think it would be a rather boring game if the detective just revealed himself and told everyone who everyone was, then was healed indefinitely until the healer dies. (which can be until the end of the game if lucky) However, it should be clarified whether it applies to just the topic or to PMs between people too. I assume it applies to all things mafia-related. Revealing =/= claiming. Cheating is if the detective gave everyone a screenshot of his PM giving him the role. Claiming you are detective is not cheating, because no one knows if you're actually telling the truth. If it were cheating, then the detective would be pretty much useless, because late game, he couldn't even tell anyone his reports, and can only hint that he wants people lynched, and then you have to consider whether this "softclaiming" is cheating. So, you ask, why did I suggest my plan if anyone can claim detective? Because I was trying to be subtle, and counting on the fact that traitors wouldn't even think to counter claim. So, if both sides are decent at mafia, how the game should go, is that detective claims, a traitor also claims detective, and they reveal when they have a guilty, not an innocent (because then traitors can just kill innocents), and reveal all their reports at lylo (lynch or lose). If both detective claims say someone is innocent, you get a confirmed innocent. And so thus, the game isn't boring if detective claims, it's completely fair, and it isn't cheating. There can be cases where the traitors choose to kill the detective, making their detective claim get lynched, leaving town to rely on the doctor and saves, and that's pretty interesting. A lot of Mafia revolves around roleclaiming. It's a game of lying and deception. There would be no deception if everyone just voted on no basis. Edit: I didn't see Tavahka's post, which confirmed what I was saying.

O_o Did everyone ignore my post? I'll try and make it simple. 1) Detective should tell everyone who he is. He should not out his report unless he has a guilty, otherwise the traitors will simply kill the innocent. The traitors cannot just kill him because he will be healed every night by the doctor. Every day he will keep getting more innocents or guilties until we can narrow it down. Eventually the doctor will die, or we will get into a "lynch correctly or lose" scenario, which is when the detective reveals his innocent reports, and we can make a judgement. Also, detective should lead lynches so we don't lead on an innocent. 2) The alibi list thing is kind of meaningless, and shouldn't dissuade people from voting those in it. 3) Random lynching is bad unless there's no other option. Right now, we need to wait for the detective to claim before we kill a random innocent. Edit: If you really must go accusing people without any solid basis, I'll help you out. The traitors will subconsciously try to appeal to emotion, or try to be funny. People who lurk and don't speak often can either be traitor or inactive town, but it is very useful to lynch those who don't contribute, as you don't need to find out if they're mafia or not later when it really matters. The goal at the moment is not to win right now, but to make it easier to win for later. Edit 2: Some extra stuff for people who care: If we get to 4 traitors and 5 townies, we are at lylo (lynch or lose). We cannot not lynch, and we must lynch correctly, otherwise we lose. If we get to 4 traitors and 6 townies, we are at mylo (mislynch and lose). If we mislynch incorrectly, there will be 4 traitors and 5 townies, and then traitors will kill another at night. Usually in mafia, the game ends when traitors are at least half the players, but if the game keeps on going, traitors pretty much have an auto-win. In this situation, the optimal solution is to not lynch, the traitors kill someone, and then we go into lylo. The reason we want to narrow it down is because we have a higher probability of lynching a traitor.

Detective claims with their report. Doctor stays anonymous and heals them. Detective keeps telling us their reports until everyone is clear except mafia. By the time mafia can even get to the detective, we'll have enough information to lynch the guilty. So detective, give us your report. Edit: Also, Tavahka, does one traitor visit the victim or all? If only one traitor visits the victim, then the Matoran who were accounted for mean nothing, because they could still be traitors. If all the traitors visit the victim, then we have three definite clears.

Put the limit down to 20. Or just start with 18. All you need to do is make mafia approximately 2/7th of the town. And hey KK17, it's been a while haha.

@Tavahka: Fair enough. The game will go in three paths:If day 1, villager is dead: detective claims and outs his report. A mafia might counterclaim. If mafia doesn't counterclaim, doctor keeps healing detective who keeps feeding reports. If counterclaim, doctor should heal someone who isn't a detective claim. Mafia can kill the detective, thus sacrificing the one who counterclaimed, and thus stopping reports, leaving the only clear left and only remaining evidence is who the doctor is. If mafia doesn't sacrifice, claims from both sides continue until a lynch or lose situation.If day 1, detective is killed, you have to wait until lynch or lose to narrow down and reveal the doc, unless there are saves. This will still likely end in a game of chance.If day 1, doc dies, you have to hope detective stays alive while reports happen. Once detective reveals himself, he will be counterclaimed. Then you can find out innocents from shared reports, and go from there. This situation is the same as if detective doesn't claim except with one less clear.So no, you don't really need any outside manipulation, but we shall see.

Spot 4 please. "I will give you a few people who have airtight alibis for the scene." I'll see how it goes, but from personal experience, it's a bit more interesting if you add more roles that make the gameplay more interesting. From a certain mafia site I probably can't mention, there's a villager who appears guilty to investigative roles, and a mafia role that appears innocent to investigative roles. There is also a mafia role which makes someone look guilty that night, and a mafia role that makes a fellow mafia look innocent that night. Roles that are especially fun to play with are neutral ones. I'll see what you have planned, I just personally think that the setup needs more roles to spice it up.

Wait...what? I can't see where the editor thing stops and the secret begins. <-Krelsin->

That's kind of unfair. None of the rest of us knew anything about becoming an editor. <-Krelsin->

...and then on the day, BOOM, April Fools... <-Krelsin->

Art Slot: Olmak Splitting Yeah, I'm going to get owned. <-Krelsin->

This would have been one of the best moments of Bionicle. Shame on you Lego. I wish it was canon. <-Krelsin->