bonesiii

This wording doesn't seem to help either, since I said that presumably something else starts the explosion... It sounds like what you really are driving at is that the EP might not have exploded at all, and just happened to be blasted away as a side effect when something else exploded (and only it exploded). Which would help explain how the EP isn't obliterated and is in space. Otherwise it doesn't seem likely so far. Well, I just looked it up right now, and it looks like that's actually the section that the idea was based on, that he doesn't know the coming results. Notice: And a little earlier: So, he does what you'd do if you didn't know (why experiment if you already know?), and he didn't expect them because of destiny but just that people of their group were interacting with the pools (and apparently he means he expected any representative, not those specific individuals). Then at the end: I don't see anything implying the opposite. He does at one point say he "is" every molecule of EP, but that already makes sense from his earlier statement that he could appear in any pool, and even if he means it literally it just means he inhabits every molecule, not controls destiny. I don't recall saying first, and as I mentioned above, I actually said presumably the opposite a few posts back... Sounds like you simply misunderstood. But I did mean that the EP apparently exploded, which still seems like the best explanation since we do know it's explosive and the key image associated with knowing the Shattering was coming shows an explosive reaction. It's clearly drops of silver liquid going onto the table. Look more closely: http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/f/f6/AOSR_Energized_Protodermis_Testing.png And all they had was a small vial anyways. There was no pool.

Eh, I don't know how to take this, since "or whatever" would cover just about anything, no? EP is in the core, and it's explosive, and it's the subject of the Shattering quotes and story mentions as far as I know. I don't see what's being assumed? What's the alternative to "EP was in the core in some amount"? (Other than no EP?) Interesting. I don't think anybody's ever posted that quote in anyplace I've followed. So the EP was, itself, not obliterated (or not all of it?) and "froze" certainly implies it can be solid! (But only if at cold temperatures, so I guess the EP in the core would probably be liquid as previously thought.) Okay, that's got me curious. What specifically made you think that? Just the part in the last sentence here? (Now maybe we had a quote confirming he doesn't know the results, I don't recall.) If the last sentence, I don't see why that means he must know the results. The "not letting" would be his guarding the pool, no? So allowing would be letting them use the EP for experiments, maybe getting lucky results, or finding something like Kraata. (Of course, he probably knows many examples of Kraata-type things, so from experience he MIGHT know a lot of the results. But I mean in terms of controlling them.) Nobody said it blows up everything it destroys (and didn't we see examples where it only acted like acid?). We're talking about one particular (unidentified) substance having that as its Kraata-equivalent predictable result. Never said it was -- I said it seems like the Ockham's razor possibility. (And am I just too tired or that was a typo... or did you say the table being dropped? It was EP being dropped (or dripped) onto the table. ) Yeah, heh, but good idea for another possibility. Doesn't really fit that image though. (Unless the table was an oven or something.)

Not sure what you're asking -- are you asking if antimatter and matter cancel each other out versus explode? (Depending on how you define "cancel out", no. They basically release the energy that makes up their mass, and that loosed energy explodes. Which I'm bringing up because a singularity apparently results in loosed energy too, but the gravity normally contains it.) Also a nitpick, I wouldn't refer to black holes as "closing", to avoid the confusion with taking "hole" literally. Dissipating or words to that effect would work better. Anywho.

Sure, lol, but things that are very strange for real life are common in Bionicle (and the whole science fantasy genre). As to your idea for the core itself shattering and being solid, that does seem more plausible. But again it's supposing an unknown -- solid EP. Seems unlikely to me. Depends on how it's made. If you're imagining they were limited to "normal-physics" mechanical devices, I doubt that. We were never told exactly how, but I've got two main candidates for now: 1) Version in my retelling, for the gravity absorption megaplanet, where a "lake" (compared to the Great Sea) was started transforming by a bit of the first artificial proto and/or EP, into the rest of protodermis (and various machines and people then made pieces and put them together). 2) A power materializes pieces (which are then put together). This one works regardless of the size and gravity of the planet. And no, we weren't given dates for the Core War and IMO it's best that way. And that core was made of EP (wasn't it?). We don't know details, and Greg isn't, pretty much, ever going to give them on such subjects. We don't know if it was pure EP in a hollow core or a mixture or what, but it was all about EP. Now if somehow the common knowledge that the core is energized protodermis is unfounded, that would be one thing, but basing that assumption on not happening to find a quote confirming it is not enough to show that. Common knowledge has been based on false rumors before, but usually such well-known things aren't. It's worth looking into more. The part I bolded here is simply a misunderstanding. I didn't say or mean to imply that it's unpredictable, and the example of Kraata that disproves that was even in my post. I said we can't make sweeping assumptions like the one I was replying to. It does react predictably to certain substances or things which would certainly be easy to test by scientific experimentation -- which is right up the GBs' ally. My retelling has an explanation for that. Tied into the big themes and mysteries of the story, so I can't get too detailed, but what I can say is that canonically we know that they can add destinies, and possibly change destinies that they added, but whether they can affect destinies they didn't add, we don't know (and this would strongly suggest not or not easily enough). Please note it's thought that the Entity has no (conscious?) control over destiny. He seems to inhabit EP, not control every aspect of it. But that would be one valid route. I presume you're typing as you read, but in case my explaining this later isn't clear, same reason dyamite stored together might all go up at once, but a stick far away won't blow up every other stick in existence. (Of course, this is also the substance that the Entity claims he can appear in any pool of, actually implying some kind of connection like that, but evidently explosions don't use that, or Vakama would have blown up all EP!) I was going to mention too but ran out of time that it wouldn't make sense that the Makuta go extinct or whatever you mean either! I doubt they personally did the work, but even if they did, they'd probably get blasted backward, but survive. (Assuming there were no holes in their armor for the flames to burn up their antidermis or assuming they were far enough away the heat wouldn't... etc.) Actually we do, though only as an apparently implied theory we're supposed to deduce, by that image. The razor interpretation is that the image shows the very experiment where the GBs learned what would happen, which means somehow contact with that substance (or in my retelling's version, electrical circuit running through it, but that's not likely canonically) is what the Fire Tribe did wrong. I think it's comparable to lead, how it used to be used in common building materials and the like because it was cheap. Probably the Fire Tribe couldn't economically replace that substance or whatever it was. Anyways, the point is, that image shows flames. The rule as it actually is, yes -- that "final answers" while Bionicle was ongoing stand, against forgetcons now, and specifically that they are indeed moons. I didn't suggest the misconception of the rule that "old is always better". Make sense? I interpreted Munty as saying a solid crumbled, basically. I was actually going to mention this alternate possibility earlier (since their warriors carried elementally-charged weapons in the war), but it's unlikely due to the table fire image and the "due to draining" quote. Maybe something related is behind it though. Maybe the substance in question is common to the Fire Tribe, maybe an alloy they make or something they mine (in places EP wouldn't normally contact... or something). (Note: The one thing we can apparently rule out is exsidian since it's part of the protodermis-exsidian mix that is EP-proof... just in case anybody thinks of that.)

Depends on what counts as a straw. Retconning one obscure unnamed guy, after originally being told he should be female (so that was itself a retcon), to make it less imbalanced... what's the problem? Yeah, I realized after posting it was probably not just the Matoran, but do we know the average ratio of the other species in total? I have no idea what it is. Vortixx is just one. Makuta ratio is no help, if I recall correctly -- I forget the exact number but it was small. The "base" ratio is 5 to 1. It may go down to 4 point something, or 3... I find 2 or 1 point something to be unlikely. (We'd have to know the ratio of other elements in population to the main six, and then the "aliens" to Matoran.) Munty, please calm down -- this is a sensitive subject. Please try to remember that -- and people not staying calm in the past on this subject hasn't ended well. To this -- I'm pretty sure we've seen that most people aren't happy with G1 on this detail. But we can resolve this one pretty simply with a poll. I can see an argument that it's too late to change the general rule, although nobody has ever complained about my changing it in the Paracosmos. (It could have been changed easily in the early years, but they didn't opt for it.) But this only changes one obscure scene, right?

NS, you misunderstand -- it's not that tiny black holes that evaporate naturally couldn't happen in theory (if you could make one), it's that the driver of the collapse breaks in this case long before actually reaching the singularity point, and what was pulling it in was being artificially generated by that body being intact. This is something not found in real-life black hole calculations, lol. Well aware of what you said (and it's been discussed in topics on here since 2003 ). Another problem with that old theory is that it's thought that mass turning into a singularity rips apart its status as matter in a way similar to antimatter explosions, and the gravity is what contains it from exploding. It's been said that a shirt button of antimatter (combined with another of matter) would destroy a continent. So with that gravity gone (beyond the body's natural, tiny amount of gravity), if he had actually reached that point, rapid evaporation probably means BOOM. (And slow might mean falling into the planet's core and eventually Vulcan Reboot.) However, it's still valid to call it a black hole because until the body broke, it was generating enough gravity to bend light in. (Presumably.) (Disclaimer: Greg probably doesn't get most of that and would just appeal to it not being real-world physics... but the timing of the gravity stopping being generated seems to make sense in Bionicle physics, so yeah.)

But we know it was the EP... ? It wasn't exsidian or Thornax. Yes, which was the EP exploding, since it has explosive properties. No no. This is a destiny-based substance that has a wide variety of effects, and they were taking it from pools anyways, not the core of a planet! That's a bit like saying "if putting a slug in EP creates a suit of armor, then putting Frost Leeches in should create a business suit." You can't generalize like that with EP. All that needs to happen is for one bit of EP to start exploding, for whatever reason, and since other EP is physically connected, chain reaction follows down the line -- and since that is the core of your planet... BOOM. Bits of EP in vials taken from separate pools in the MU aren't at all like that. One pool can blow up, and others are fine. While that would be a valid story, it's seeking out another source of explosive power when we already have one, so Ockham's razor applies here, I'd think. And it really sounds like another way of saying the same thing; it's just changing exactly how the explosion starts; once it does, the EP goes too. Something that isn't EP had to trigger the explosion, probably (unless it just decided it was destiny to explode then or something ). Regardless of where it was or what it was. Look at that image of the table bursting into flames again. That's not an implosion. I do think "draining triggered it" is a worse explanation, hence my retelling's version, but it's not that much of a stretch. Mining explosive stuff could trigger it in any number of ways. I dunno what specific way Greg had in mind, but yeah. If the destined destruction thing is the explanation, it could be just a matter of what substance they use for pipes! No, because it was about LMB answers years after Bionicle ended and his memory would be expected to go down. By no means did it mean that answers from while they were still figuring things out stand over later more definite answers while Bionicle was still going. (This myth has popped up in the last month, not sure why, but let's please not let it spread. That would mess up TONS of things!)

Note also that it's incorrect that we don't know where black holes are. Besides that they show up as a distorted black region when something passes behind them, we can see their accretion disks (when they have them). They are not just mathematical theories anymore than wind is. As for the gravity Kal, the black hole was generated by a power and once the source of the power was crushed, it would instantly evaporate, not due to Hawking radiation but because the gravitons themselves stop being generated by the elemental power. That would be enough to save the planet... what else gets saved depends on timing, though. I always thought the comic portrayal had it last way too long for the cavern and surroundings to survive. I portrayed a more realistic version in the Paracosmos.

I'd be very curious to see that math, because the main six elements are more common than other elements, so if it's based on total population, that doesn't sound accurate. Anyways, I'd vote for this.

Bohrok have brain-launchers built into their heads. I'm just not sure if he did that. The animation and comic certainly don't create that impression; if he did, he flipped the case back closed right away and then started dying, just in time to miss the "snapshots" of the comic art and somehow offscreen in the animation version (of course, wouldn't be the first retcon of such portrayals but yeah). (Even so, a black hole really would destroy everything around it... but comic book physics strike again. )

I agree -- but when EP destroys something, it's gone (witness Plantzahni). The planet wasn't entirely consumed, just broken to pieces, so whatever reacted to cause the explosion wasn't "the planet" (though a destiny-based destruction of a particular substance is certainly possible).

I agree they may be "floating trial balloons" as it were (just as 2001 did). Part of the reason for that is tied up into what I'm talking about; you have to keep in mind that there is more content out there -- and that's why I don't see laziness here. Just more to do, and the same amount of time people always had. That means if you want people to watch your stuff, you have to (at least at first) demand less time from them, because they'll already be trying to keep up with a lot more than typical kids during G1's era. In G1, content was mainly produced (though it was already changing at the time) by a small amount of people with a lot of resources like LEGO. Now they're competing with YT and other things, so it makes sense to cater to a style more in line with that. And it's also worth keeping in mind that as the premier toy company in the world (depending on who you ask, but definitely near the top), LEGO almost certainly has people paying attention to these societal changes -- professional marketers, etc. Regardless of the causes and whether that different setting is good or bad, they do have to take it into account.

I don't know what you mean, Evergrey. I wouldn't put it down to laziness, though -- life is just different. In Gen 1 days we didn't HAVE smartphones to influence our attention spans. We had books, we had to schedule our lives around primetime TV instead of watching it whenever we wanted (still do for some shows but yeah), etc. And although the net was a thing, the instant and highly effective google searches we now take for granted weren't really there, and many connections were slow. I could go on, but there's no real conspiracy. Just different times, and the same old human nature reacting to those differences in understandable ways.

So, I'm obviously late to this topic, but reading it through real quick, I couldn't help but notice that seemingly almost nobody is talking about the big difference between the two times -- attention spans have gone down. It seems like the assumption is being made that simpler story = younger target audience, by most people. I think it's pretty clear they're aiming more at smartphone-vid culture, which numerous studies and reports have agreed does have a shorter attention span. So I don't think it's really about age, although that's probably a major factor, but about targeting today's society, not yesterday's society.

Spi, where are you getting the part I bolded here? As far as I know, they did not channel their elemental powers through the Toa disks, though perhaps they could have if they wanted to. Anywho, the Inika's theme was really their being lightning-infused, rather than a particular object. And the Mahri being water breathers. Then the Nuva in 2008 having adaptive armor. Each Toa team that was made into sets had something out of the ordinary, but they weren't all objects. Not sure I would really count the Toa Disks as on that list anyways, though. I got the impression those might be fairly common among pre-Great Cataclysm Toa. They do have an association with the setting though since Kanoka were invented in Metru Nui, so I guess it counts. I think the Hordika time is more distinctive, though (although there could be other Toa Hordika), and searching for the Great Disks seems more like a good candidate. (And the Hagah's special thing was their elite job. And I guess you could throw in the Mata's Golden Kanohi.)

Whoa there. It exploded Shattering the planet... And if that isn't proof enough, the GBs tested it and learned that it was explosive, as illustrated here: http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/f/f6/AOSR_Energized_Protodermis_Testing.png Which makes sense for something called "energized." This image, BTW, seems to show that it takes nothing more than contact with some sort of substance (or as I theorized for my retelling, literally tapping into its energy as a power source) to trigger the explosion. Vakama used heat, I would presume, though unsure off the top of my head. Regardless of exactly how it worked, we know it was explosive. To the side of AM thing, I thought Greg confirmed it was tidally locked and the giant crashed on the other side. That's how I've portrayed it in my retelling. It sounds like that was an earlier quote from before they'd really established that AM and BotaM were actually moons orbiting BaraM, as art in the MNS clearly shows (so if that portrayal is canon and you were on the Bara side of Aqua, no way you'd need a telescope to see Bara!). But Greg's grasp on whether they were planets or moons was obviously never very strong for some reason, as shown in the recent forgetcon debacle and ret-retcon. I think the resolution to that probably applies here, and we should go with the answer that it was the other side. Thing is, I don't know the actual timing of that quote, nor do I trust my memory that it says what we've taken it to say for a while.

Munty, I've been agreeing with mostly everything in many of your latest posts, but the one just after my latest doesn't hit that mark, I'm afraid. I'm not sure how to take a lot of it though because it's unclear where you're coming from or what you're driving at. In parts it looks like you're just trying to analyze one very specific scenario, but you used so many wordings that seemed like absolutes that I couldn't be sure that was actually what you meant. The main thing I'm reacting to is that you seemed to several times assume things about what "everybody" is assuming that I have not seen, and in many cases I don't know how you could know without being telepathic. To begin with, as I pointed out to T1S, there is NO wiggle room in the explosion. It was exactly however powerful it needed to be to put the moons into orbit, not blasting away and not too weak to fall back. But again, since we don't know the actual sizes involved, exact numbers for that speed and related factors can't be derived. (Not for certain.) I don't see what the point is of statements like "it wasn't gigantic". That's a subjective word, and I'd think anything capable of blasting pieces of a planet into space definitely deserves that label. And no matter how you describe it, the balance remains indisputable (and for now it also remains indisputable that we don't know where the balance is in real terms). But several parts of your post also seemed aimed at saying it was multiple explosions. If that was canon, it would then be true. But so far as we know it isn't. However, obviously any explosion could be thought of as having components, as not every atom reacts at once, right? (All explosions of anything besides just two atoms, basically, are chain reactions.) The bottom line is it all averages out to a single central "total" force. Also, trying to make it noticeably different explosions seems counterproductive as now you're just putting chaos back into it that the single-explosion polar theory solved, making a deadly change to Bara's orbit likely. Two equal things in opposite directions keeps the total resulting mini-system in equilibrium. If one goes out first with noticeable time between, even if the other is at the polar opposite end, multiple explosions (unless there's two that are equal and opposite!) could make the whole thing go any number of different ways, and it becomes like hoping for a coin toss to land on the edge. So, why try to push things in that direction, when we already have a much simpler interpretation that works? I'm also not sure why we're still talking about the old "mining pressure" theory when we already know it was an explosion due to tapping into the power. (And siphoning it out would reduce pressure, not increase it.) Mining pressure might have an effect, but it's not clear how that is relevant to your analysis. Could you clarify? Also, the prototype robot was made prior to EP discovery, not as a result. And whether the EP was liquid or solid (and we only know of liquid as far as I know), the core definitely exploded. And having it be solid sounds more likely to blast the whole planet to bits, not burst out two corks. Liquids are good for more "gentle" explosions, so again I say stick with the straightforward Ockham's Razor explanation. Finally, nobody that I know of (as far as I recall them saying) thinks that only three things came out; the dust cloud seen in the movie in orbit would also undoubtedly result from the many smaller bits around the edges. And I don't know if we know whether the AM moon came from it too or was SM's moon originally. There might also be other bodies. Many smaller ones might get enough speed to be blasted away and not fall into orbit. And this is true regardless of whether it's a single event in time in the total or multiple noticeable events! Interesting idea. Who knows, though. I doubt that's what the story team intended. Might be fun to "try on for size" the math that would result if you put Earth's exact size as Aqua Magna and calc SM from there, just to see where that goes.

I think the canon seems intended to imply the desertification had to do with the ocean going away, so messing up the water cycle there (and leaving two giant craters that water could fall down more easily, making what water did rain for a while quickly inaccessible). Also, about the sizes, if AM is to be big enough to accomodate the giant, yet SM small enough to not have completely crushing gravity, it seems like the sizes have to be more similar than different. So yeah, imbalance is an issue. While it could still work out, the polar theory avoids the issue, makes sense of why those two lands broke, and matches the best art -- what's not to like?

But that again is a subjective answer we can only define with exact math. ANY imbalance disrupts Bara Magna's orbit a little according to Newtonian physics. The question is just how much. (So if you say "doesn't disrupt" you actually mean disrupts a small enough amount to not be noticeable.)

Actually, I could see the Plasma Bohrok adding rocket power to his downward fall, but it seems like Greg's forgetting that he would melt himself, like the Gravity Kal imploded himself. Vacuum made sense not to destroy itself. Plasma? No. (Really Vacuum should have been smashed to bits against the ceiling... or really survived just fine but suffocated everybody else in the room... but I digress... )

I don't know what you mean. What exactly are you asking? Because we know they didn't fall back onto the planet, and also got locked into orbit. Whatever the sizes of the bodies involved and their gravity, we know they got that balance right. But we don't know the sizes so anything more specific than that is speculative.

T1, it was confirmed to be an explosion. The poles thing is as far as I know still only theoretical but it makes sense with basic physics -- equal and opposite reactions. If they go out both poles at once, Bara Magna isn't knocked out of orbit. Every other arrangement has that problem (well, aside from the equivalent of poles, like maybe magnetic poles instead of orbital poles). It also seems to make more sense why those two spots were chosen; rotational stress fractures might make the poles the two spots most likely to give way when explosive internal pressure starts. (And the best art showed it as a polar thing. Not proof, but enough to put it on the table.)

I like it. When I'm occasionally in the mood for it.

Shrinking it just takes a retcon -- that would go for anything already canon. (And like I said, we can still figure out what "should" be canon, even if Greg doesn't go for it. ) But thanks for clarifying. I thought you meant something more complicated and not remotely like that... glad I didn't base an answer on that lol.

What do you mean? Get out of what? *is confused again*