Mysteries of the Past

[ALVIS]

Do you guys recall any weird or unexplained events in the history of the Matoran Universe? I don't refer to events that the Matoran didn't fully understand -- I refer to events that we, as an audience, didn't understand and still don't. Little unresolved mysteries and loose ends... aka plot holes.

 

You see, I have an idea pending for an epic that includes characters subtly manipulating the MU since the Time Before Time, and I figured I'd use this opportunity to try and make sense of the plot holes and mysteries. Thus far, I've got "who hid the Great Disks?", and that's it.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Angel Bob

[Mampt]

I was always kind of confused by how Matoran lived on Voya Nui before the Great Cataclysm.

[CaT in Rogue]

Well, considering the fact that Voya Nui was just another part of the Southern Continent before the Great Cataclysm, it's fairly safe to assume that they simply lived like the rest of the Matoran on the Southern Continent.

[Zox Tomana]

Do you guys recall any weird or unexplained events in the history of the Matoran Universe? I don't refer to events that the Matoran didn't fully understand -- I refer to events that we, as an audience, didn't understand and still don't. Little unresolved mysteries and loose ends... aka plot holes.

 

You see, I have an idea pending for an epic that includes characters subtly manipulating the MU since the Time Before Time, and I figured I'd use this opportunity to try and make sense of the plot holes and mysteries. Thus far, I've got "who hid the Great Disks?", and that's it.

Artakha, or someone at his bidding, did the hiding some time within 2500 years of the Great Cataclysm. They were apparently teleported in, according to BS01.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Zox

[ALVIS]

Ah, yes, but that's the trick -- we were never given complete confirmation that it was Artakha's doing. And if, say, this mystery manipulator had a great interest in the Kanohi Vahi being forged by someone on Metru Nui, well...

[Katuko]

Regarding Voya Nui, I found that island strange as well. A piece of the mainland broke off during the cataclysm, probably because it laid over Karda Nui and thus had thinner ground underneath it, but then it rocketed upwards stayed on the surface of the planet. However, the only thing that keeps it from sinking is a (hollow!) cord of cooled lava. How did the island float upwards in the first place if it sinks without support? How can a comparatively thin rock formation keep the entire island afloat, when it sinks instantly and rapidly when the cord is broken? How can there still be erupting lava on Voya Nui, if the cord is hollow and no longer has lava pumping through it? I know the Piraka tried to drain the entire volcano, which implies that the supply of lava is finite - despite frequent eruptions over the last 1000 years apparently not doing anything meaningful to empty it.

 

But most importantly: How did any inhabitants of the island even survive the trip to the surface? The island had to tear through the outer shell of Mata Nui, which should have flattened the entire top of the island (though apparently it left its toll, with mostly desert and rocky capes left on it). The trip would likely have drowned or crushed everything on the way up. Official story said the few Matoran living there survived, but does not say how. They probably went into shelter before the island flew up, so I suppose their superhuman resistance to physical trauma explains how the G-forces of impact didn't splatter them. Let's just say it's a good thing this area was sparsely inhabited, though, or else it would be much harder to justify a zero death statistic.

 

 

Regarding the Great Disks, I did find it a bit strange that such artifacts were just kind of scattered around the city. Did they have a purpose beyond shooting the Morbuzahk? If they were always intended to become the Vahi, why couldn't Artakha craft it himself? He does seem like the kind of person who creates just to create, and when he's done he places the items somewhere they might be needed. I guess he saw less risk in distributing a set of Kanoka that were a bit more powerful than the standard ones, than he saw in creating an actual Mask of Time.

[fishers64]

@Vahi/Great Disks stuff:

 

 

First of all, I want to thank you for those 2001 throwbacks in the latest chapter of Dark Mirror. I was very happy to see the Vahi and infected Hau again.

I’m confused about the Vahi though. In this universe, Makuta never posed as Dume to push Vakama to forge the Vahi. But apparently one was forged in Artakha. In our universe, do two Vahi exist? One in Artakha and one in Metru Nui? Or maybe, in the alternate universe, does Vakama live and work in Artahka, due to his great mask making skills?

 

1) No. In our universe, Artakha put the Great Disks in Metru Nui which Vakama eventually used to make the Vahi. In the alt. reality, Artakha kept the Great Disks and experimented with them himself, and made the Mask of Time.

 

Boing boing. Also this:

 

 

8) Why were the Great Disks even created?

 

8) So that the Vahi could one day be made from them.

 

@Voya Nui stuff: This was discussed in past topics but was never fully resolved. Mostly what I remember is bones' theory that the edge of the island hit the robot hull first, and his crazy theory about a floating island that was alive. I proposed a theory of "super-hot volcano hits first" which got stomped on for some reason. Let me grab my sources real quick...

 

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=3549&p=178667: Arg format errors. *quotes relevant section*

 

 

 

Anywho, moving on...Voya Nui's rocketing up is a subject I'm foggy on now. I know what caused it was something like an overload of the energy storm in Karda Nui (which was directly beneath its former SC location). I don't recall how the heck the Matoran on it survived colliding with the ceiling, or for that matter the force of the island being pushed upward. Another thing that confuses me is how it kept its rather brittle two northern peninsulas. I would expect the whole thing to be shattered into a thousand tiny bits, and maybe a big boulder in the middle, killing everyone.The Mask of Life is probably the key to how the Matoran survived, though. After all, VN is all about the Mask of Life, and it always was. It's possible everything else was predicted, and safeguards put into place, by the GBs who hid it, or by destiny systems (see my Inika Lightning theory open here right now for more of my thoughts on destiny).It's also possible the Ignika itself used clever tactics to ensure the island would remain intact -- and this might also explain the floating. Perhaps it made all the rock of the island alive, and the volcano remained active because the Ignika turned it into a heart for this organism. Perhaps the rock was modified to be more like living cells, but with the cell interiors being bubbles of air, like pumice. Later on, this island-organism may have died of old age, and it was no longer really floating, but the stone cord held it in place.So it would float for just long enough for Mahri Nui to form, fall in, and the stone cord to form connecting the two. The cord would at first act like an anchor for the floating island, but later would become thick and strong enough to act as a pillar actually holding it up.And if the rock was already being made into this living form as it flew upwards, it may be more flexible instead of brittle, explaining how it stayed intact. Perhaps the nature of this change also explains why the coasts are ice. In order to run a volcano on a floating island something obviously must be in operation that is very abnormal. Volcanic heart needs heat; if the "cells" on the outer edges absorbed heat from the environment, channeling it into the heart, this would make the edges cold, and ice would form naturally due to seawater.Another problem is all the new mass of Mahri Nui and the cord, though. Maybe the island had to literally eat itself from the inside out in order to keep this heart running, so by the time the Toa came it was a lot more hollow than before, and had almost no rock left it could draw from. This would support the dying of old age theory.Most of this could work too if instead of the Ignika turning the island alive it was a nonliving set of systems and physics properties assigned long ago by the Great Beings as contingencies. (The physics properties explanation would especially work under my cyberclay theory, as protodermis would then not be limited by the physics of real-world materials.)Still confusing how the Matoran weren't at least swept off the island as it passed through the ceiling though. Unless perhaps the Ignika mentally ordered them to get into caves, or maybe the Order (Axonn, Brutaka) realized what was about to happen and gave that order. The Rahi's survival could, I suppose, also work under either idea.The Mahritoran surviving is harder to explain, yeah.I think again we can appeal to the Ignika's presence. It may have sensed that people were drowning and wanted to stop that, so it temporarily held them alive even though they couldn't breathe. It's also possible the "airweed" itself was actually created by the Ignika just so they'd find it, since it couldn't hold them alive that way for long.The idea of appealing to the GBs or even the Order doesn't seem to work for this one. This may be evidence that the former problem was solved by the Ignika too; that it has been a lot more active in events surrounding it than we previously thought.

 

That's the "living island" theory.

 

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=3549&p=181097 <--- That one's me, lol, so readable. The last couple of images are the "volcano first", and "core breach is smaller than VN so it blasted up lopsided".

 

Yes, basically, it's that topic...most of the stuff is there in shorter posts if you keep scrolling down.

Edited February 17, 2014 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

This topic is kind of post-it-herey, but I'll allow it as at least you have a constructive purpose in mind and at least one specific in firstpost...

 

Unfortunately, if I tried to answer this, my answer would be better summed up as "all the stuff I theorize about in my retelling." The hiding of the Great Disks happens to be one of 'em. Although probably not the most interesting one -- it's "somebody connected to Artakha" after all, if not him personally. Somebody doing his bidding.

 

Regarding Voya Nui, I found that island strange as well. A piece of the mainland broke off during the cataclysm, probably because it laid over Karda Nui and thus had thinner ground underneath it, but then it rocketed upwards stayed on the surface of the planet. However, the only thing that keeps it from sinking is a (hollow!) cord of cooled lava.

No, the cord (which came much later) prevented the "magnetic"-like force caused by the amplified repair staff from pulling it "home." It was floating on its own before that, and would have after the cord was broken except that that force had already been switched on. Prior to the sinking of Mahri Nui there was no cord, ergo it cannot be the sole cause of its floatation.

 

I know the Piraka tried to drain the entire volcano, which implies that the supply of lava is finite

Their purpose was more likely to lower the top of the liquid inside, not to use up the entire finite supply of lava (though I agree it is most likely finite). It's akin to poking holes in the side of a water tower, thus lowering the height the stored water can reach, without implying that the pump that feeds water into it stops working or has run out of supply.

 

Now quoting myself from fishers' post:

 

I don't recall how the heck the Matoran on it survived colliding with the ceiling

FTR, having now pretty thoroughly reviewed the canon sources for 2006, I can confirm that at least in those sources it doesn't say. Only question is if Greg ever commented on it, but I suspect he'd invoke the old "don't overthink it" kind of reasoning.

 

I think one thing that seems definitely most likely is my "it flipped upside-down" theory. If it was going fast enough, the initial acceleration would give the Matoran momentum, so that they would keep going up too, then the momentum of the whole place would make it puncture the robot like a bullet. And finally, something I don't think I mentioned before, but the shape would create cavitation in the water, allowing air to temporarily get dragged up along behind the giant bullet, so the Matoran wouldn't drown or just get pulled off due to water. It would need to rocket a little into the air above, and then spin before landing.

 

Both flips actually seem necessary given its shape, incidentally. It's only symmetrical one way; the side without the hole would have more friction, likely inducing spin at first as it accelerated, and then as it slowed down as it reached the surface.

 

And yes, retelling has several more details helping to explain it, that are spoilers. I actually present a couple different ideas, some that end up not being needed because the Ignika was already handling them, just to cover my bases. Why it might be shaped that way is covered too.

Edited February 17, 2014 by bonesiii

[Katuko]

No, the cord (which came much later) prevented the "magnetic"-like force caused by the amplified repair staff from pulling it "home." It was floating on its own before that, and would have after the cord was broken except that that force had already been switched on. Prior to the sinking of Mahri Nui there was no cord, ergo it cannot be the sole cause of its floatation.

True enough, though the cord still managed to keep the entire island up against the strange pull. Look at the map of Voya Nui and see that tiny little stream of lava that runs down where Mahri Nui once was. Compare the size of the stairs to the size of the island. It's a thin thread holding back immense weight. How this can oppose the island - whether it is sinking or being pulled - is beyond me.

 

But I suppose the next question is "how did it float beforehand, then"?

 

Their purpose was more likely to lower the top of the liquid inside, not to use up the entire finite supply of lava (though I agree it is most likely finite). It's akin to poking holes in the side of a water tower, thus lowering the height the stored water can reach, without implying that the pump that feeds water into it stops working or has run out of supply.

The art I've seen of Mount Valmai makes it look like it would be counter-productive to make a tunnel near the top. It is rather thin and unstable, and the shape is more likely formed by cooling lava after the eruptions started. The comics show another entrance somewhere in the Green Belt, while the aerial view we have of the volcano from the Voya Nui map makes it look like it has a lot bigger crater and less sharp of a slope. Also, the backstory mention the Great Beings blasting their tunnel into the side of the mountain. They most likely did not start inside the crater.

 

Regardless, the Piraka did not know where the tunnel was, but they somehow came to the conclusion that it lay below the lava. Drilling holes near the bottom of the crater may very well have served to empty it in a few weeks - judging by size of the volcano vs. size of holes - though it would be extremely risky (not that the Matoran were in any position to refuse)

 

 

 

I think one thing that seems definitely most likely is my "it flipped upside-down" theory. If it was going fast enough, the initial acceleration would give the Matoran momentum, so that they would keep going up too, then the momentum of the whole place would make it puncture the robot like a bullet. And finally, something I don't think I mentioned before, but the shape would create cavitation in the water, allowing air to temporarily get dragged up along behind the giant bullet, so the Matoran wouldn't drown or just get pulled off due to water. It would need to rocket a little into the air above, and then spin before landing.

Hm. I find this extremely unlikely to avoid casualties. Before their piece of the mainland hit the ceiling there would be no water at all, leaving the Matoran at the mercy of regular air as the island first flipped. Even bullets lose a large amount of momentum when impacting solids (water can actually stop them dead in just a few meters, as proven by Mythbusters) so Voya Nui's size and apparent ability to float by itself is the only thing that keeps it going after first impact. Unless, of course, the robot's outer shell is so thin compared to the internal island piece that it can rip straight through as if it was wet tissue paper. Then the impact would be comparatively negligible.

 

 

Both flips actually seem necessary given its shape, incidentally. It's only symmetrical one way; the side without the hole would have more friction, likely inducing spin at first as it accelerated, and then as it slowed down as it reached the surface.

Spinning sounds like it would tear off the prongs. Then again, the official map which shows the Southern Continent does not show any prongs -- then again it also shows the island as being the size of most of the continent, so we must take this illustration with a grain of salt. IF the hole was that big, the entire ocean would flood in so fast that Karda Nui would also be completely submerged.

 

 

I actually present a couple different ideas, some that end up not being needed because the Ignika was already handling them, just to cover my bases. Why it might be shaped that way is covered too.

The shape is easy to explain. It's a magical lucky horseshoe, which is the real explanation why no one died.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

True enough, though the cord still managed to keep the entire island up against the strange pull. Look at the map of Voya Nui and see that tiny little stream of lava that runs down where Mahri Nui once was. Compare the size of the stairs to the size of the island. It's a thin thread holding back immense weight. How this can oppose the island - whether it is sinking or being pulled - is beyond me.

I think the fact that it's floating on its own is enough to make the difference. At that distance, the restoration power's pull must have been so slight as to only barely overcome the natural floating. So the stone cord just pushed it over the balance of forces.

 

it would be counter-productive to make a tunnel near the top.

Why do you say near the top? I don't really recall it being said that was the case. I assumed they were drilling in near the base of the part that extends above the ground. Though they may have started higher at first just to prevent the outflow from being catastrophic (since that might entirely eliminate their useful slave population).

 

I find this extremely unlikely to avoid casualties.

There were casualties. Many Matoran, and Turaga Jovan.

 

Before their piece of the mainland hit the ceiling there would be no water at all, leaving the Matoran at the mercy of regular air as the island first flipped.

Something similar to water cavitation happens in air, however. If you've seen those wind tunnel experiments where smoke trails are added, a bubble of slower moving air will form behind blocky shapes like the flat "top" of the cone of Voya Nui.

 

Even bullets lose a large amount of momentum when impacting solids (water can actually stop them dead in just a few meters, as proven by Mythbusters) so Voya Nui's size and apparent ability to float by itself is the only thing that keeps it going after first impact.

The only thing we could be sure of, that is. Keep in mind too that the giant robot's upper surface was near the ocean surface, because the face was actually above the water partially. So there was not much water to cut through, compared to the mass (and thus high momentum) of VN.

 

Spinning sounds like it would tear off the prongs.

Part of the Ignika-effect theory (and another in my story) is that the alteration of the rock made it far less brittle. Although I don't see why the prongs would tear off just from spinning; more likely from the impact.

 

 

 

Yes, I presume whoever made that bit on the map had no idea what they were doing, and I consider VN to only be a tiny dot, not even resolvable with its U-shape on a map of that scale.

 

Also, I didn't lol but it was funny enough anyways.

Edited February 17, 2014 by bonesiii

[Katuko]

Why do you say near the top? I don't really recall it being said that was the case.

"Lower the top of the liquid inside" plus the water tower analogy made it sound like you thought the Piraka only needed the volcano half-drained, not drained all the way to ground level.

 

There were casualties. Many Matoran, and Turaga Jovan.

I suppose I should reformulate to "any survivors at all", but I get the point - many died, so the trip wasn't entirely magical. I forgot Jovan even existed, I must admit.

 

Something similar to water cavitation happens in air, however. If you've seen those wind tunnel experiments where smoke trails are added, a bubble of slower moving air will form behind blocky shapes like the flat "top" of the cone of Voya Nui.

I'm just not certain if the physics involved would make the island sustain enough force - whether by air or otherwise - to keep people from being torn off the surface. Clinging onto a tree or something would likely work until the island hit the outer shell of Mata Nui, but I imagine that whatever insane force made an giant piece of rock rip off and fly skywards through a giant metal robot shell would be more than the force needed to fling someone straight through a tree or a hut, even if the island was spinning.

 

Part of the Ignika-effect theory (and another in my story) is that the alteration of the rock made it far less brittle. Although I don't see why the prongs would tear off just from spinning; more likely from the impact.

When being ripped loose from the Southern Continent, the material that became the prongs of Voya Nui must have experienced a lot of stress. When something spins, the outermost parts are traveling at a higher velocity than the center, meaning that compared to staying in the bay, the worst of the force would be felt at the tips of the island. After impact, and then traveling through the resistance of water, I can only imagine how much pressure there must have been on the rather thin prongs.

 

Yes, I presume whoever made that bit on the map had no idea what they were doing, and I consider VN to only be a tiny dot, not even resolvable with its U-shape on a map of that scale.

I agree. When I think about it, the waterfall that Matoro fell through was decidedly not island-sized. The island left a crater when it took off, but only the tip of its underside (like, say, an upside-down mountain of sorts) actually poked "through" the Core roof to begin with. Still, the island must have been much, much smaller than it was on the map to even make sense.

[bonesiii]

"Lower the top of the liquid inside" plus the water tower analogy made it sound like you thought the Piraka only needed the volcano half-drained, not drained all the way to ground level.

The volcano itself goes way, way below ground level, so in a sense, they were only "half" draining it (actually probably far less than that). They were hoping the mask was in a place in the above-ground part.

 

I'm just not certain if the physics involved would make the island sustain enough force - whether by air or otherwise - to keep people from being torn off the surface. Clinging onto a tree or something would likely work until the island hit the outer shell of Mata Nui, but I imagine that whatever insane force made an giant piece of rock rip off and fly skywards through a giant metal robot shell would be more than the force needed to fling someone straight through a tree or a hut, even if the island was spinning.

There is a possible answer or two. Again, I'm trying not to give too complete an answer so as not to give things away that I did use in my story.

 

When something spins, the outermost parts are traveling at a higher velocity than the center, meaning that compared to staying in the bay, the worst of the force would be felt at the tips of the island. After impact, and then traveling through the resistance of water, I can only imagine how much pressure there must have been on the rather thin prongs.

To the first sentence, well aware of this, but I doubt it could be spinning that fast, or else it would also continue spinning due to angular momentum when punching through (and if it spun more than halfway before impact the Matoran would fly off). Your second sentence is a good point, but again, there are options. I would guess that some small percentage of them very well may have flown off. However, assuming the conical shape would like a rocket oppose the spin once it aligned to upside-down, the prongs would be more like long fins cutting through the water, with plenty of front-to-back stability.

[FallenCor]

Okay, wait, the Great Cataclysm caused the energy-storms in Karda Nui to stop and simultaneously sent Voya Nui skyward, right? Who's to say there wasn't one last energy-surge that not only punched the island out like a cork, but maybe went laser-cutter on us and basically sliced a (rough) Voya Nui-shaped hole in the hull of the robot. Boom, that's how everyone avoided a fate that should be kept to bugs dumb enough to fly in front of a car going 80.

[Katuko]

The volcano itself goes way, way below ground level, so in a sense, they were only "half" draining it (actually probably far less than that). They were hoping the mask was in a place in the above-ground part.

I just figured that if they were looking for a door, they'd need it on a flat surface that is not still surrounded by a lake of lava. If it were on the bottom of the volcano they would ahve to drain all of it. If it was on the side of the volcano, they'd need to drain so much that they could approach it without getting fried. Either way, that's a heck of a lot of lava to move.

 

To the first sentence, well aware of this, but I doubt it could be spinning that fast, or else it would also continue spinning due to angular momentum when punching through (and if it spun more than halfway before impact the Matoran would fly off). Your second sentence is a good point, but again, there are options. I would guess that some small percentage of them very well may have flown off. However, assuming the conical shape would like a rocket oppose the spin once it aligned to upside-down, the prongs would be more like long fins cutting through the water, with plenty of front-to-back stability.

It doesn't need to spin all that fast, though, since the sheer size and mass of the island would give it tremendous force anyways. I suppose it'd be quite resistant if it was truly solid rock, but the map implies to me that the island is a bit "chunky". And I still can't quite wrap my head around the logistics of an entire island flying around. It's not exactly something we see in real life.

 

Okay, wait, the Great Cataclysm caused the energy-storms in Karda Nui to stop and simultaneously sent Voya Nui skyward, right? Who's to say there wasn't one last energy-surge that not only punched the island out like a cork, but maybe went laser-cutter on us and basically sliced a (rough) Voya Nui-shaped hole in the hull of the robot. Boom, that's how everyone avoided a fate that should be kept to bugs dumb enough to fly in front of a car going 80.

Nothing, really, except that we must assume that an energy blast which punched such a hole for the island to go through would have to follow the same path. But if the energy came from below the island, it would have had to pass through the island as well. If we go with the spin theory, we could say that the energy burst out of Karda Nui, forced Voya Nui loose and started to spin it around, then passed by and punched a hole in the robot before vanishing into the sky. It seems a bit strange for an energy discharge like that to travel in a straight beam, though, since it should logically start spreading once it hits the underside of the island.

[bonesiii]

Obviously, if I wanted a comprehensive list of plot holes, I should have devoted a day or two of my free time to trawling BS01. Anyway, this thread is way off-topic. If you're enjoying the Voya Nui physics discussion, though, feel free to make a new topic.

The above quote is from a report by the topic starter. I assume this means it's a request for closure. FTR, next time somebody wants to request closure, please state it clearly so we don't have to just read between the lines.

 

Topic closed.