The Official OTC TBRPG Planning and Organization Topic

[Havelock Vetinari]

Well yea I know, but it's seams that's a problem. I'm not knocking the whole idea, I fully support this RPG idea. Just that Im not too fond of RPGs that use logic. That's why I play RPGs on here lil kid Icarus, Rise of the Rockets, because they don't need to logic, and logic doesn't way it down. That's just my opinion.But I am willing to help out with this RPG idea, namely the whole idea of Magic vs Machine, and it makes me wonder, who will win? What will happen?

Logic enhances things, makes them better. It doesn't weigh anything down. You can have the best sprinkles in the world, but if you don't have ice cream to go with them, they're just pretty colors. That's the difference between fantasy fulfillment and serious RP's.If you want an answer that dwells in reality, look over the debate we've been having. Machines win. Easily.EDIT: I realize that Humva. But the explanations provided thus far are the typical "shut of your brain" arguments. I and other RPers rather like our brains. They enhance good RPing experiences. Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk

[Blessed Blade]

It is possible to have a fantasy RP and have it be intellectually fulfilling. The difference between good RP's and pure fantasy-fulfillment is that good RP's operate on logic or at least, some form of it.Dark Pit seems to be going for a serious RPG, not fantasy fulfillment. Serious RP's demand a certain amount of logic.

Lemme go back to DBZ for a moment. And let me list everything that they have against them, logic wise:They can shoot energy.They can fly.They can become giant apes.They can turn their hair gold just by yelling.They can survive things even as a normal human that would kill anyone in real life in the first two minutes. (See: Videl incident)They have aliens.They have magical balls that can grant wishes and bring people back to life.They can destroy planets with huge balls of energy.They can travel through time. (See: Future Trunks)People can be eaten, but somehow still be intact and freed without having to be revived with the Dragon Balls. (See: Super Buu, Cell)Am I missing anything? As much as DBZ is awesome for all that, you can't say it doesn't break logic from the first arc, and just keep going. And yet, it's supposed to be serious, considering all the times that they encounter death and destruction. (Poor Krillin...)/EDIT:

Machines win. Easily.

Try telling that to the Androids in DBZ. =P Edited July 22, 2012 by Pit: Arrow of Light

[Havelock Vetinari]

Am I missing anything? As much as DBZ is awesome for all that, you can't say it doesn't break logic from the first arc, and just keep going. And yet, it's supposed to be serious, considering all the times that they encounter death and destruction. (Poor Krillin...)

Key word was supposed to. I can't get through an episode because my mind shuts down halfway through and I forget to breath. :PDBZ is a bunch of pretty colors and excuses for fights. Compare it to say, Dragon Age. One is G-modding fantasy fulfillment in RPing terms, the other is fleshed out and a serious RP. Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk

[Blessed Blade]

Well, which episodes are you watching? Some were comedic, so that everything wasn't constant 'fight, death, fight, death'; but the Buu Saga was, with the exception of Goten and Trunks, one of the msot serious arcs in DBZ history, with the exception of Future Trunks' story.

[ZTG]

I know, I just edited that last post of mine. I understand a good RPG needs logic to fulfill it, but it seems this RPG is being weighed down by it. I understand Machines need logic, but magic doesn't need to be explained. You need rational rules in order to keep the RPG running smoothly. My only concern about this is that because of the machine stuff, logic is being applied to much. It might just be me though. Then again, if machines win, where's the fun? That's pretty much one of the few flaws in this RPG.

[Havelock Vetinari]

I know, I just edited that last post of mine. I understand a good RPG needs logic to fulfill it, but it seems this RPG is being weighed down by it. I understand Machines need logic, but magic doesn't need to be explained. You need rational rules in order to keep the RPG running smoothly.My only concern about this is that because of the machine stuff, logic is being applied to much. It might just be me though. Then again, if machines win, where's the fun? That's pretty much one of the few flaws in this RPG.

Look, I'm trying to help. I suggested making it Steam punk, I suggested toning down the tech to the level of say, the 1500's. My suggestion was ignored and they kept going for future tech. I had to explain why that wouldn't work. When you bring technology into something, let alone future technology, people are within their rights to question how it works and to argue if the explanations provided don't work. Fantasy authors and Sci-Fi authors, the good ones, go to a lot of trouble to convince us that these worlds operate on some form of logic, to trick our brain into believing it.It's all in the world-building. Such things can make or break a serious RP.

Well, which episodes are you watching? Some were comedic, so that everything wasn't constant 'fight, death, fight, death'; but the Buu Saga was, with the exception of Goten and Trunks, one of the msot serious arcs in DBZ history, with the exception of Future Trunks' story.

That's the problem I have with anime in general. Most of them can never decide if they want to be serious or a comedy. But moving on, the very concept had to make the viewer shut down their brain. It's then that strays out of the territory of logic and into the territory of pure fantasy. Which is fine for a cartoon, but not for an RP like the one Dark Pit is trying to make. RP's, RP's where technology plays a large part, where it's expected that these civilizations are somewhat like are own, have to operate on logic or else people will shut down their brains and the RPG will suffer for it. Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk

[Blessed Blade]

Well, I guess that answers the question of whether people want another DBZ RPG... Which, was one of the longest running RPGs in COT for a time, until it died and everyone didn't care anymore...The only problem with Steampunk is; where do you draw the line? Sure, you have robots running on steam; but then that takes away from the meaning of the city, which is that the citizens just lay back and do nothing, because everything's handed to them on a silver platter by their robot slaves... Which means that the entire city would have to be edited.

[ZTG]

I know, I just edited that last post of mine. I understand a good RPG needs logic to fulfill it, but it seems this RPG is being weighed down by it. I understand Machines need logic, but magic doesn't need to be explained. You need rational rules in order to keep the RPG running smoothly.My only concern about this is that because of the machine stuff, logic is being applied to much. It might just be me though. Then again, if machines win, where's the fun? That's pretty much one of the few flaws in this RPG.

Look, I'm trying to help. I suggested making it Steam punk, I suggested toning down the tech to the level of say, the 1500's. My suggestion was ignored and they kept going for future tech. I had to explain why that wouldn't work. When you bring technology into something, let alone future technology, people are within their rights to question how it works and to argue if the explanations provided don't work. Fantasy authors and Sci-Fi authors, the good ones, go to a lot of trouble to convince us that these worlds operate on some form of logic, to trick our brain into believing it.It's all in the world-building. Such things can make or break a serious RP.It's all in the world-building. Such things can make or break a serious

I also suggested the steam punk idea, but before you I think. Not saying who said it first, but we both had the same idea.I'm saying, my only fear of the RPG is the possibility of it being to realistic, like magic has such rules and limitations, or machines can only do such and such.I agree that an RPG needs a decent amount of logic to keep is running. Steam Punk seems to be the best solution for the RPG, or machines powered by magic, but if Technos using only machines like DP said, no magic then. So yea, steam punk is the best idea for the technology level. How about we stop this argument of logic before something happens.

[JiMing]

Your sugesstions were ignored because they completely goes against the whole basis for this RPG.For the people living in Technos, it's similar to The Giver. Now picture The Giver kind of society, only 100 times more advanced in terms of technology, and have the people do nothing.Look, all I'm trying to do is make an original RPG. I noticed most (not all) RPGs here were based off of some franchise. I want to offer people an original idea.Also, I never said machines were going to win. I never said magic would win either.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Dark Pit: Servant to None

[ZTG]

I tried with Dream World, but I'd rather improve it and use later on.Franchises already have a lot of the required stuff, it's easier for a lot of people. I will be working on Dream World, but I'm gonna ask which RPG people think I should work on.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Your sugesstions were ignored because they completely goes against the whole basis for this RPG.For the people living in Technos, it's similar to The Giver. Now picture The Giver kind of society, only 100 times more advanced in terms of technology, and have the people do nothing.Look, all I'm trying to do is make an original RPG. I noticed most (not all) RPGs here were based off of some franchise. I want to offer people an original idea.

You are offering an idea to people, to do that and not expect them to point the flaws they see...I'm not trying to ruin your fun, I'm not trying to ruin your RPG. I'm saying it's going to be a very short war because of the logic that goes with a technological civilization like Technos.The basis of the RPG needs work, I've brought up many points, many examples about why it will not, in it's present state work. Fellows with swords and fellows with lightening coming from they hands simply can't do much against a dug-in technological enemy. They'll lose. Badly.A society like that of the Giver? I won't get into a debate about that. Even they had accurate technology, even they worked on some logical basis.EDIT: Logic and rationality says the machines will win. It would take G-modding and GM bias to do anything else. Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk

[JiMing]

Look, you guys are trying to completely change the RPG to suit your tastes. I'm all for taking suggestions and improvements, but it seems I just can't make the RPG I want to make...This is a planet where magic and technology exist at the same time. How much logic does that need? Sure, some logic is necessary, but really, if this followed all logical sense, this RPG, along with all others on BZP, would not exist.

[Blessed Blade]

The question is; what line is 'too much'; in terms of God Moding?My RPG, my original one, that's worked well elsewhere, is set in the modern day(More or less); and yet the opponents are tech and super strength, versus people who can manipulate energy. Not the most original idea, I understand, even if I throw elements into the mix a little while into the RPG, and then other stuff for the sequel ideas. But just because someone has weapons, doesn't mean they're invincible./EDIT: I kinda have to agree with JiMing... Logic is good; to a point. If we forced logic to everything, we wouldn't have LoZ, because logic dictates that there's no magic or magical triangles. We wouldn't have Pantheon or Disney, the latter for obvious reasons. The only things we'd really have are the realistic ones, or the RTS RPGs, like Strith...

Edited July 22, 2012 by Pit: Arrow of Light

[ZTG]

Please can we stop this nonsense of logic and opinions?!This is turning into this big argument. Dark Pit is right, we should be stating ideas, not controlling it to make it what we want. But he should also be open to ideas.Point is, this is a great idea, but it needs work, people want to help, but we should allow him to control it since its HIS idea.So let's stop please

[Alex Humva]

Could do something to similar to Outbreak, though Outbreak was less warring factions and more government conspiracy.Huh. I wonder if I could boot up Outbreak again, after Strith... Who all would be interested as playing what effectively amounts to the X-Files, Heroes, X-Men, and most other superhero tropes compressed rather densely and spiced with alien conspiracy for good measure?Also, RPGs need some level of logic. Otherwise you have no boundaries, no rules to go by. Thing is, this setting can be logical with minimal change.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Game Master Alex Humva

[Havelock Vetinari]

Look, you guys are trying to completely change the RPG to suit your tastes. I'm all for taking suggestions and improvements, but it seems I just can't make the RPG I want to make...This is a planet where magic and technology exist at the same time. How much logic does that need? Sure, some logic is necessary, but really, if this followed all logical sense, this RPG, along with all others on BZP, would not exist.

No. We're telling you why your idea won't work as it stands currently. Lot's of people have gone through this before you, and they've dealt with it.Magic operates on it's own form of logic, depending on the system. But technology operates on the same logic. Logic I have already explained. The normal reason magic is dominant in worlds of magic is because it retards the advancement of technology. In your RP, Technos already has robots. So that doesn't apply anymore, if Ergas went to war with Technos, logically, they would lose. It's almost predetermined.If you want a tension-inducing RPG where people are wondering who will win, something has to change. Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk

[Blessed Blade]

Could do something to similar to Outbreak, though Outbreak was less warring factions and more government conspiracy.Huh. I wonder if I could boot up Outbreak again, after Strith... Who all would be interested as playing what effectively amounts to the X-Files, Heroes, X-Men, and most other superhero tropes compressed rather densely and spiced with alien conspiracy for good measure?Also, RPGs need some level of logic. Otherwise you have no boundaries, no rules to go by. Thing is, this setting can be logical with minimal change.

Yes, please. I wanted to get into Outbreak, right before(Or after, I forget. >>') you closed the last one. =/Also, to me, it depends on the RPG, for logic. If you have something with multiple dimensions; then logically(=P), logic would go out the window, or you start to run into problems. Sure, you have the group that is obviously skeptical, and won't believe it due to logic, but it just wouldn't work without suspension of disbelief.

[JiMing]

Look, if I was to make it steampunk or something, I would have to completely revise the RPG until it is unrecognizable.That's trying to completely change an RPG to me.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Look, if I was to make it steampunk or something, I would have to completely revise the RPG until it is unrecognizable.That's trying to completely change an RPG to me.

You'd have to change one aspect of it. That's hardly unrecognizable.

[Blessed Blade]

I don't want to start the argument up again; but technically, he'd have to change a little more, since Steampunk wouldn't exactly allow the type of service for the citizens of Technos, logically, that he's going for... I think that's what he's trying to say.

[Alex Humva]

You don't have to make it steampunk, it was merely a suggestion. Not being steampunk would greatly help the mages, because then they're dealing with howitzers, which means they can generate much more energy to deflect them, which, in turn, makes them much more powerful, and makes them a source of power the Technos would want to tap into.If I do redo Outbreak, I'm going throw it out here now, it most certainly will be a reboot, probably a complete reimagining, rather than what Outbreak: Resurrection turned into, which was basically Outbreak IV.

[Havelock Vetinari]

I don't want to start the argument up again; but technically, he'd have to change a little more, since Steampunk wouldn't exactly allow the type of service for the citizens of Technos, logically, that he's going for... I think that's what he's trying to say.

Hence the one aspect. The aspect of Technos. Orwell had to think out his dystopia and make it work logically. So does Dark Pit.

[ZTG]

I have a question before I continue on any RPG project.Should I continue my RPG idea Dream World (Which is on either 54-56)? Or should I continue with the Kirby idea?

[Advent Child]

Alternative suggestions: Maybe due to the Ergas' constant need to struggle with monsters, perhaps they've become far more physically evolved. Capable of feats most humans would consider ridiculous at this point. Dodging or deflecting bullets with melee weaponry and such. Needing something of extreme force to be able to break or cripple them. Casting magic spells in seconds, though not necessarily of a particularly high power level.Maybe one of the reasons monsters stay away from Technos is because there's some sort of wave emission tool being used that drives them off, as opposed to extremely powerful weaponry. Or maybe the monsters don't try too hard because there's an outer ring surrounding the city filled with nothing but machinery, and the monsters aren't intelligent enough to figure out if they drive deeper, they'll find completely defenseless food. They just get discouraged, and attack elsewhere.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Evolution doesn't work that quickly...or like that. But yes, if they use magic to modify their bodies....That would make things more equal.

[Advent Child]

No one said it had to be a quick process. Ergas as a people could have been surviving and fighting for generations prior to this point in the RPG. And with magic being a core factor of how Ergas works, it could alter the entire theory behind the normal course of evolution.

Edited July 22, 2012 by .:Advent Aeternale:.

[Havelock Vetinari]

No one said it had to be a quick process. Ergas as a people ccould have been surviving and fighting for generations prior to this point in the RPG. And with magic being a core factor of how Ergas works, it could alter the entire theory behind the normal course of evolution.

Two hundred thousand years?Hence why I said "use magic to modify their body". Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk

[Advent Child]

Yeah, but magic to modify their bodies, while a perfectly sound idea, implies that it's also a complete necessity for everyone to rely on the magic users. The idea for evolution was provided so that the people incapable of using magic, the warrior class and such, would be able to throw down without having to entirely rely on mages.Pushing past that, the idea of magic speeding up evolution to tens of thousands of years isn't too farfetched in the grand scheme of applying magic to reality.

Edited July 22, 2012 by .:Advent Aeternale:.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Eh. Not relying on them more like visiting them once in their lives for the right spells that change their bodies biology. Since magic is a central factor, I can see that working.

[Blessed Blade]

Technically, if the RPG goes that way; it could be a process done after the person was born; so that the process could take total effect, and gain the most effect.

[Advent Child]

Fair enough. So it becomes almost like a rite of passage.

Edited July 22, 2012 by .:Advent Aeternale:.

[JiMing]

Alternative suggestions: Maybe due to the Ergas' constant need to struggle with monsters, perhaps they've become far more physically evolved. Capable of feats most humans would consider ridiculous at this point. Dodging or deflecting bullets with melee weaponry and such. Needing something of extreme force to be able to break or cripple them. Casting magic spells in seconds, though not necessarily of a particularly high power level.Maybe one of the reasons monsters stay away from Technos is because there's some sort of wave emission tool being used that drives them off, as opposed to extremely powerful weaponry. Or maybe the monsters don't try too hard because there's an outer ring surrounding the city filled with nothing but machinery, and the monsters aren't intelligent enough to figure out if they drive deeper, they'll find completely defenseless food. They just get discouraged, and attack elsewhere.

Oh my god, that is an excellent idea.In the world of fantasy, magic modifying bodies to superhuman strength isn't far fetched, so that equalizes things now.The wave emission thing could work, but I think they would also place some security drones for extra safety. Edited July 22, 2012 by Dark Pit: Servant to None

[ZTG]

So quick question...what kinda monsters live in the world? Dragons? Menataurs? Vampires? Trolls? Demons?I would love to help with the monsters if you need it.

[JiMing]

So quick question...what kinda monsters live in the world? Dragons? Menataurs? Vampires? Trolls? Demons?I would love to help with the monsters if you need it.

Eh, something like that.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Well, just goes to show, we argue about something forever then someone walks in, points out the obvious and we all kick ourselves. :PWith modern or semi-modern tech on the side of Technos and magic and magical abilities on the side of Ergas...Ladies and gents, we've got ourselves a real war.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk

[JiMing]

Well, just goes to show, we argue about something forever then someone walks in, points out the obvious and we all kick ourselves. :PWith modern or semi-modern tech on the side of Technos and magic and magical abilities on the side of Ergas...Ladies and gents, we've got ourselves a real war.

Yep. Prepare for a bloodbath, ladies and gentlemen.But now, can anyone suggest some more kingdoms for players to choose from? And a name for this RPG?

[ZTG]

Karzahni yea.I have a few,Name could be: Divided Lands.Kingdom ideas could be like, a forest kingdom filled with elves, homage to herbs and many plants. A fiery land were dragons an lava golems dwell. Or maybe even the kingdom Of ice, where ice creatures and days of endless cold are

Edited July 22, 2012 by Zacax

[Blessed Blade]

Well, just goes to show, we argue about something forever then someone walks in, points out the obvious and we all kick ourselves.

Haha; yeah, that sounds about right. xDNow this is more like it. =DJiMing: Well, I was wondering, maybe the name could be something like 'The Magitech Wars', or something like that? It's kinda a silly name, I guess, but it does technically fit...As for kingdoms, do you want just names, or types of kingdoms as well?And for fun, what about a Kingdom of Monsters? =P Edited July 22, 2012 by Pit: Arrow of Light

[JiMing]

Name could be: Divided Lands.Kingdom ideas could be like, a forest kingdom filled with elves, homage to herbs and many plants. A fiery land were dragons an lava golems dwell. Or maybe even the kingdom Of ice, where ice creatures and days of endless cold are

Not a bad name idea.I already thought of Silereas, a forest with elves, and Terrakon, a volcanic land inhabited by lava beings.

JiMing: Well, I was wondering, maybe the name could be something like 'The Magitech Wars', or something like that? It's kinda a silly name, I guess, but it does technically fit...As for kingdoms, do you want just names, or types of kingdoms as well?And for fun, what about a Kingdom of Monsters? =P

That name could work.I want both actually.Eh, monsters aren't the brightest creatures. Gonna have to strike that one down. Sorry. Edited July 22, 2012 by Dark Pit: Servant to None

[Havelock Vetinari]

Name could be: Divided Lands.Kingdom ideas could be like, a forest kingdom filled with elves, homage to herbs and many plants. A fiery land were dragons an lava golems dwell. Or maybe even the kingdom Of ice, where ice creatures and days of endless cold are

Divided lands I can see working.Of course, it'll be a bloody war. I can see the combat on the walls being....very brutal. WW1 brutal. Edited July 22, 2012 by Basilisk