Alternate Universes & Beings

[55555]

My sister was talking about how annoyed she was about alternate universes in Bionicle, because in alternate universe characters behave very differently and them behaving in those ways is just as 'real' as their standard behaviours. So for instance, Onua is evil in the Toa Empire alternate universe, making Onua just as truly evil as truly good, something that understandably would frustrate someone emotionally engaged with that character.Buuut, I figured out something that resolves that and makes a lot more sense.The usual theories about branch universes is that branches are created in a couple different ways; one, alternate results of random factors (like Schrodinger's cat), and two, alternate decisions made by people.To clean things up a little, I'll go forward with these hypotheses.First, that there's no such thing as the Butterfly Effect, a theory in which tiny factors, such as the movement of a butterfly's wings, can effect gigantic factors, such as a hurricane.Second, that random factors DO NOT create branch universes. So I'm saying that the universe is an entirely predictable entity, that will always act exactly the same way in the exact same set of circumstances.Which leaves only one thing that creates branch universe; important decisions made by the people in them.Back to my original thing. What defines a fictional character, or a real person? What makes them who they are? Really, how they use their free will. AKA the decisions that they make, especially the important ones.So I theorize that the Toa Empire Onua and the original Onua are entirely different people, kind of like identical twins. They look the same, sound the same, in some ways they think the same but they are different people and make significantly different choices under identical circumstances.WWhich presents and interesting picture; zillions of Onuas spanning the whole range of possible combinations of important decisions. A moral and mental spectrum of Onuas.Now this doesn't work for humans, because we are real people and are not mass produced to neatly fit every slot in a multi-dimensional spectrum, but it works pretty well for robots.Anyway, I hope that was clear. Stomp on, gaze in wonder at, or snort derisevely regarding my theory as you see fit. - 55555

[bonesiii]

Yeah, pretty sure it's confirmed that it's the decisions, which is why those are different. And I agree that they are two different Onuas. What else could they be? They cannot be the same Onua. They are two different people, in two different worlds. And yes, twins is a good analogy.Not sure what you meant about the butterfly effect. Anything doing anything will causally affect other things. I don't see why anyone would doubt that, but the term is sometimes used for things that go beyond the main idea of it. Usually it's used for time travel, explaining why a visitor to the past would have to be careful not to interfere even in tiny ways, which is of course not relevant here, though. But I'm sure I'm just not seeing what you meant by it.

[fishers64]

"the butterfly effect" is an allusion to some time travel story (which I cannot remember the titlte of right off hand) is which a character kills a butterfly and causes major league differences in the English Language grammar. It is rather silly; I mean, really?Anyway, this theory is rather brilliant. I support you.

[55555]

Yeah, pretty sure it's confirmed that it's the decisions, which is why those are different. And I agree that they are two different Onuas. What else could they be? They cannot be the same Onua. They are two different people, in two different worlds. And yes, twins is a good analogy.Not sure what you meant about the butterfly effect. Anything doing anything will causally affect other things. I don't see why anyone would doubt that, but the term is sometimes used for things that go beyond the main idea of it. Usually it's used for time travel, explaining why a visitor to the past would have to be careful not to interfere even in tiny ways, which is of course not relevant here, though. But I'm sure I'm just not seeing what you meant by it.

Right, yeah, I just hadn't thought about it and then tried to figure it out in a way that made sense.The lack of a Butterfly Effect is just my way of eliminating universes that are almost exactly the same. For instance if Tahu decides to pick up a rock and throw it in the lava or whether he decides to do it a split second later, or not at all. If you go with the Butterfly Effect then that would create three different universe; more likely infinite ones for different points of time in which he made his decision.

"the butterfly effect" is an allusion to some time travel story (which I cannot remember the titlte of right off hand) is which a character kills a butterfly and causes major league differences in the English Language grammar. It is rather silly; I mean, really?Anyway, this theory is rather brilliant. I support you.

Thanks!- 55555 Edited February 22, 2012 by 55555

[bonesiii]

I don't think it's silly at all. The slightest subtleties can indeed have profound effects later on versus if that little thing had gone the other way. It might not seem obvious, but causality is like that sometimes. :)Anywho... I forget if Greg said if there are infinite ones or not, but you could make the argument either way. Really, though, again, if Tahu does throw a rock a different way, sometimes that's going to cause major differences down the road. Someone once said life is a game of seconds and inches -- if you'd been a second earlier to an intersection, you would have crossed the yellow light, and maybe got hit, etc. People have noticed close calls like this all the time -- it's when the little things add up to major differences that we lose sight of how those seconds and inches made the difference, a lot of times.And really, why would small differences not also get alternate timelines? Where would you draw the line, or rather, how would temporal physics draw the line?Statistically speaking, you're most likely to jump into a timeline significantly different from your own. Although the one you jump into may be surrounded by ones very similar to it, all of them are very different from your own home one. So the effect is basically the same whether or not a limitation on how trivial the differences can be or not.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

"the butterfly effect" is an allusion to some time travel story (which I cannot remember the titlte of right off hand) is which a character kills a butterfly and causes major league differences in the English Language grammar. It is rather silly; I mean, really?Anyway, this theory is rather brilliant. I support you.

I believe the story you're thinking of is called A Sound of Thunder, by Ray Bradbury. In the story, killing the butterfly also changed the result of recent divisive election. But, I'm fairly sure that the Butterfly Effect was not named for Bradbury's story, and it just happened to be a coincidence.Somewhat off-topic, but I thought I'd clarify.~B~ Edited February 22, 2012 by Ballom

[BenLuke]

... I forget if Greg said if there are infinite ones or not...

It's certainly safe to assume there are. If we postulate that any choice create an alternate universe where a different choice was made (and any choices make in this other version of reality also creates another alternate universe...) then there would be a constantly growing number of universes.

[Visaru]

One more thing:The two Onua's might NOT be different versions of the character. Many people believe that your environment alone shapes your personality. So for example, the Toa Empire Onua was just brought up to be evil, and taught not to treat matoran as equals. It's like racism. People were brought up to think some people were't equal to themselves. Although a better example might be Tuyet. In the Toa Empire universe, she describes herself as more 'competent' that her real universe counterpart. So Toa Empire Tuyet must be a different character than ours.

[bonesiii]

The two Onua's might NOT be different versions of the character. Many people believe that your environment alone shapes your personality.

I don't think anybody seriously thinks it's that alone, but it obviously does play a huge role. You know, the butterfly effect mentioned earlier may be a partial answer to what I think people are having problems with. I think people get the idea that at some point in the Core DImension Onua's life, he had to face a yes or no question -- do you choose good or evil, and our Onua chose good, while the other chose evil, and this just feels wrong to people.I agree with that feeling, because what causes someone to choose on such a major question can only be a vast collection of smaller choices he's already made along a path. It seems impossible that Core Onua could make all those same choices leading him on the path to good, and then suddenly for no reason whatsoever, as the timeline splits, Alternate Onua (who has the exact same history) chooses evil.So putting these factors together, I think it's more likely that much farther back in Core Onua's life, when he faced some minor choice he really wasn't sure about either way, THAT's where this example timeline split. And THIS alternate Onua never becomes evil, just a little less good maybe, but THIS one later faces another unsure choice, and chooses rightly.He splits again, so now there's yet another timeline with a slightly more evil Onua, and so forth.Finally we arrive at the evil Onua, and this happens to be the timeline visited.It's also possible that other characters' little choices send universes into radically different places long before Onua is even made, and when he is, he's raised in evil, as you mention. But the original choices that split these universes could also have been small and totally unrelated to Onua. Edited February 23, 2012 by bonesiii

[BenLuke]

^ Therefore, any alternate universe actually diverts from the Prime Universe before any mayor changes to the universe's history become visible.

[Visaru]

It's also possible that other characters' little choices send universes into radically different places long before Onua is even made, and when he is, he's raised in evil, as you mention. But the original choices that split these universes could also have been small and totally unrelated to Onua.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Isn't the evil Onua in a universe that split before he was created? I haven't read that Toa Empire story recently.