The Official OTC TBRPG Planning and Organization Topic

[HeavyMetalSunshineSister]

I really don't think that just stating "professional soldiers good, levies bad/meh" is the solution in any case.

[Havelock Vetinari]

I am upgrading levies from "bad" to "meh."

 

Well, you should more for training and that. I'm not asking to get a professional military force for free here. Otherwise, there would be no point in paying for professionals would there?

[Xomeron]

You've given sources on how many people there were in greece at certain times, how many people at one battle, and the like. I've never seen anything to indicate that a greek phalanx was any better than any other man with a shield and spear. I'd put money on a square of Swiss pikemen over a Greek phalanx any day.

 

Besides, a Phalanx takes extensive training to hold. The sort of training you give to a real soldier. I think training them that well would make them class as professionals.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Xomeron

[Alex Humva]

@Power Well I mean, the Romans did something like that. It'd mean less "levies=professional soldiers" and more "levies=poor sods who don't have citizenship yet."

Edited November 25, 2013 by Strategist Alex Humva

[Havelock Vetinari]

You've given sources on how many people there were in greece at certain times, how many people at one battle, and the like. I've never seen anything to indicate that a greek phalanx was any better than any other man with a shield and spear.

Besides, a Phalanx takes extensive training to hold. The sort of training you give to a real soldier. I think training them that well would make them class as professionals

Yes. The fact the Greeks fielded Phalanxs widely in their military engagements and beat the more numerous Persians soundly is just incidental. Really?

When you look at history, the implications are just as important as the words on the paper.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Basilisk

[Xomeron]

I just realized something actually, after I brought up Swiss Pikemen, and with what Power said, and with this Phalanx argument.

 

We need a third class of soldier. Men who are given high-quality training and weapons, are trained to work as a unit, but then return to their lives as farmers or artisans. The midpoint between levies and professionals.

[shadow pridak money gang]

I really don't think that just stating "professional soldiers good, levies bad/meh" is the solution in any case.

 

I'd agree with this.

 

@Lloyd: Okay, so what do you have in mind for the game's timetable? Are we talking a published report about a year after the fact like the actual Warren Commission or would you like to sort of play up the investigative aspect in between?

 

-Tyler

[Havelock Vetinari]

Further information on Greek formations for the curious.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx

 

Evidently the standard Spartan formation was five hundred to 1500 men.

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Just for the record you want to be careful with Spartan numbers in battle. They always had to keep about half their armed forces back home in case of helot revolt, which is why they're always fielding significantly smaller numbers than the other city-states. A little fact to keep in mind before someone starts bringing that up

[Lara White]

@Lloyd: Okay, so what do you have in mind for the game's timetable? Are we talking a published report about a year after the fact like the actual Warren Commission or would you like to sort of play up the investigative aspect in between?

 

-Tyler

 

I was thinking that the players would be the ones doing the investigation that ultimately leads to this world's version of the Warren Report. The DPD, the FBI, etc.

 

[Alex Humva]

I think that, with Xom's middling idea, that I'll do this: you still have your specific subsects of professional and levies. However, after fighting in wars, your levies will obviously gain experience. When they return to their farms, they will still have experienced the fight. Since we're operating on a pretty small time-table here, your levies dying of old age won't be a serious issue. When you rally your levies again, you will have the option of stating you are pulling from the veteran levy corps. These will function in a similar manner to professional soldiers but at the same cost as levies.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Oh yes, the Spartans had problems with their slave population.

 

I always rooted for the slaves. It does not end well for them, suffice it to say. The Spartans were crazy elite because they had the time to be. They depended on the labor of their slaves to feed them, cloth them, while they focused on fighting and murdering slaves as a rite of passage.

[shadow pridak money gang]

 

@Lloyd: Okay, so what do you have in mind for the game's timetable? Are we talking a published report about a year after the fact like the actual Warren Commission or would you like to sort of play up the investigative aspect in between?

 

-Tyler

 

I was thinking that the players would be the ones doing the investigation that ultimately leads to this world's version of the Warren Report. The DPD, the FBI, etc.

 

 

 

Are you considering more of a realistic angle or is there going to be a little bit of conspiracy indulging going around depending on what bureau you're working for?

 

-Tyler

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Everyone's all talking about armies and stuff.

 

And I'm thinking - how big are the actual cities and such? These are the best calculations I could come up with, based on what's given -

 

Let's say maximum army size with 10 EP is 10,000; 1000 per each one. If 80% of the resources are put into farming based on the text, and therefore probably that much into the general population of assured non-combatants, then we have 20% of the people fighting, though they wouldn't be high-end soldiers. Now, 10,000 multipled by 5 comes out to 50,000.

 

Am I hitting pretty close to the ball here? 50,000 people or so for the civilizations at the start of the game?

 

Note that the calculations above do not take into account overlap in roles (soldier+farmer; minutemen of a sorts) and assumes a population which is perfectly gender-equal.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

Considering someone compared us to Athens and the GM didn't correct them, I'd say the average population is around 250k.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Basilisk

[Alex Humva]

No, our cities will probably be closer to the 250,000 you found in the prosperous Greek city states, with each player having one or two of those to his/her name. I expect the average of 600k or so for our nations. The thing is that just because 80% of your population is engaged in farming doesn't mean the 20% has nothing to do. They are the smithers, builders, messagers, wine makers, shoe makers, so on and so forth.

 

And remember that thanks to our multiple of 10, you can now raise 100,000 levy men for 10 EP. You could easily commission a whole city, though that would have... long lasting effects.

 

Also keep in mind that the definition of "city" here is not at all what we think of today. Don't think 250,000 Athenans going to work every day down mainstreet, think a central hub of activity with two dozen thousand and then farm land stretching out for as far as the eye can see around the city. Hopefully everyone gets that already but just in case, clarification.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Strategist Alex Humva

[Havelock Vetinari]

Hm. Different civilizations will of course having different styles of fighting. I note levies only tell you the training and that, not how their fighting styles compare with each other.

[Silvan Haven]

Almost all of those levies are going to have been farmers.

[Alex Humva]

Naturally. Levies will fight how their civilization fights; what makes a levy a levy is that they're cheap, inexperienced, and easy to ship off to war.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Gee. I wonder if my immense knowledge of history and stack of massive textbooks will serve me here.

 

I'll guess very well.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Basilisk

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

No, our cities will probably be closer to the 250,000 you found in the prosperous Greek city states, with each player having one or two of those to his/her name. I expect the average of 600k or so for our nations. The thing is that just because 80% of your population is engaged in farming doesn't mean the 20% has nothing to do. They are the smithers, builders, messagers, wine makers, shoe makers, so on and so forth.

 

And remember that thanks to our multiple of 10, you can now raise 100,000 levy men for 10 EP. You could easily commission a whole city, though that would have... long lasting effects.

 

Naturally, but I was putting out the 20% as in "all resources are being put into the military" going under a baseline of 10 EP = the 20% effort. More of a simplified way of putting it than anything else.

 

I have another question, then - is this Greek technological levels? And on a related note - what would it take for 1000 men armed with crossbows? Because they made those things illegal in Europe (during the Middle Ages; I must admit I do not know the legality of owning a crossbow in the EU) for a good reason.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#Ancient_Greece

 

Crossbows were around back then. Granted, they weren't exactly what we imagine when we hear the term.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Crossbows were around back then. Granted, they weren't exactly what we imagine when we hear the term.

 

Oh, I knew that. I just wanted to know how much effort would go into their mass production.

 

You can substitute crossbow with "ranged weapon which requires very little training to use comparatively, which is equally as effective against the nobility as the peasantry" when it boils down to it, though.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Alex Humva]

The ancient Greek crossbows were more... hand cannons really than what we think of today. A thousand men with them would be a thousand men ready to be slaughtered by a more mobile force while they feebly crank their handheld catapults.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Great for range. So big and unwieldy....well, give me some half-trained men with swords and horses and those crossbows are useless. I'd use them in defense of a city certainly but as a battlefield weapon? Maybe as few units as part of a bigger army but.....

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

A few EP put aside every half-year to improve weapon development. You know, to improve in hunting and the like. Given time, you have a practical weapon. No?

 

 

Besides, never mentioned actually using them in an invasion. Be impractical anyways. That's a lot of weight to lug around.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Greek crossbows were almost more of siege unit than anything...

 

So, since helots got mentioned earlier in the topic, got me thinking it might be interesting to play as what are essentially a conquered people. Anyone looking to have a race of ready made slaves?

[Xomeron]

So my people are going to directly worship a nearby dragon as their god.

 

Half-dragons are very prevalent.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Xomeron

[Silvan Haven]

A few EP put aside every half-year to improve weapon development. You know, to improve in hunting and the like. Given time, you have a practical weapon. No?

 

 

Besides, never mentioned actually using them in an invasion. Be impractical anyways. That's a lot of weight to lug around.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

 

I more or less did this in Strith, came out with a new toy every few years or so.

 

This RPG is supposed to have less tech races then all the other ones though.

[Lara White]

 

 

@Lloyd: Okay, so what do you have in mind for the game's timetable? Are we talking a published report about a year after the fact like the actual Warren Commission or would you like to sort of play up the investigative aspect in between?

 

-Tyler

 

I was thinking that the players would be the ones doing the investigation that ultimately leads to this world's version of the Warren Report. The DPD, the FBI, etc.

 

 

 

Are you considering more of a realistic angle or is there going to be a little bit of conspiracy indulging going around depending on what bureau you're working for?

 

-Tyler

 

That's something I have not decided on yet. It really could go either way, though if it does go the conspiracy angle, it'll be more realistic.

 

[Alex Humva]

The post has been edited with improved soldier stuff and a better lore.

 

Also yes, tech racing will be... difficult, seeing as one year in-game is 52 days in the real world. I don't particularly expect much tech to happen here, not with the time period we're in. The most we might see is the widespread adoption of steel, which in and of itself is pretty significant.

[Havelock Vetinari]

My people will, of course, worship the true Father of Snakes.

 

Glory be to Yig.

[shadow pridak money gang]

I'd say if we're going to go with the conspiracy angle - at least, a government conspiracy - it would have to be diluted heavily, because there are a lot of supposed factors involved. The Mob or something Castro-related would be a different story entirely, but from what I can tell it's going to be largely fed-centric so there wouldn't be a lot of room to cram them in, at least at the start.

 

-Tyler

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

I have no intention for starting up a tech race. Just adapting. Once a cultural weapon proves to be inefficient in combat, then the logical next step is to improve it. Only once war actually begins, of course.

 

Oh, and another thing - would you be allowed to start the game with at least one wizard? Seems odd that none of these nations used these Fonts of Magic yet, even though its established they've been there and been used for quite some time.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Lara White]

@ Basilisk: What is it with you and worshiping the Lovecraft mythos?

 

@ Tyler: It all depends on what people would prefer.

 

[Alex Humva]

It's something I need to add into the draft; you get a set amount of EP that you can spend initially to get some units or such things. Wizards would fall under that.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

It's something I need to add into the draft; you get a set amount of EP that you can spend initially to get some units or such things. Wizards would fall under that.

 

Wouldn't want to miss out on any sorcerer god-kings.

 

Or dipping a dragon in the fountain. A dragon with a crossbow.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Havelock Vetinari]

I like it because it's an interesting world to explore. It has a very unique take on the universe, on magic and science. It's weird and fascinating....and frankly, the idea that the universe does not care about you or Azathoth, alien god or men, at all, is a good lesson. Because I believe the meat of that message is very much true and very relevent today.

[Alex Humva]

Dragons are not really... playable. Xom's dragon lives in a cave and keeps mainly to itself. He feeds it virgins and sheep, it stays passive. Trying to get dragons, a race that has been so apathetic that it nears extinction, to fight for you would be pretty much impossible.

 

Xom does have an immortal sorcerer-king though, they're ok.

[Havelock Vetinari]

And I'll note, liking something and mentioning it, using it, is not worship.

 

Unless Star Wars and Star Trek became a religion when I wasn't looking.