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Makuta, why did they betray?

Makuta bionicle fan-theory puzzle pieces are toa racist?

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#1 Guest_generalvicron_*

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 01:22 PM

Alright, we all know the makuta, a race of beings that control shadow among forty-one other powers, most of which are deadly.  They are selfish by nature, aggressive, vindictive and willing to kill those that stand in their way without a second thought.  And they are very good at playing the long game.  It doesn't take a lot to see that these guys going bad in the first place, but, why did they go bad?  This thread is for everyone's theories regarding the fall of the Brotherhood, and how you came to your conclusion, I'll start.   "We hate you, because we cannot be you."  That's the line that made me stop, despite the fact that Tahu tries to brush it off like it's just small-talk.  Why couldn't they?  After that, I started scouring the books, blogs, podcasts, any and every source of bionicle story information I could find.  Now this is either just fridge logic, or Greg intentionally placed these things there as clues.  Or it's also possible he just hated the makuta so much it leaked into his writing on the times before they went bad.  I'm going to assume it's one of the first two. In chronological order.  In "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet", Tuyet says she may take out the Brotherhood, even though the Brotherhood hadn't betrayed them yet and at the time Teridax was helping to defend Metru Nui against the Dark Hunters.  Instead of being even slightly confused as to why she would go after their allies, Lhikan just berates her for trying to instill her own will over a populous.  That and they don't mention him or anything about the western side of Metru Nui at any time during the story, so I can only assume that Teridax was stationed there, alone.  Displaying a near self destructive disregard for the makuta.  This isn't just thinking he can handle it, this is willfully ignoring him.    At this point I asked, "were the makuta already hated before they went bad?"  During the Great Disturbance, Teridax believed it necessary to not only lock the combatants in the Onu-Metru archives, but to unleash some of the more deadly rahi on them in order to terrorize them into stopping their civil war.  As we've seen from Teridax's other activities, he works in incredibly subtle ways.  For him to decide that such drastic and involved measures needed to be taken, there must have been something else that guaranteed, at least in his eyes, that they wouldn't listen to him.  You could say that the fact that the turaga had already failed could be this reason.  But I doubt it.  Afterwards, Teridax's actions led to makuta everywhere being even further distrusted by matoran and toa.  This is the kind of behavior frequently exhibited by people attempting to justify racism.  The person will take a single individual's actions and spread it over the entire group.  They'll look at a black man who was convicted of theft and then say that all people of african descent are thieves, or a hispanic man lazing on his porch and say that all hispanics are lazy.  They'll look at a jewish man who is cheap and say that all jewish people are tight-fisted when it comes to money.  The best comparison for the makuta would be those who discriminate against muslims because there are small sects that are crazy, like those responsible for the 9/11 attacks or other acts of terror.  Then when Teridax reveals his plan to the other makuta, Miserix sees it as a ploy to take control of the Brotherhood.  That doesn't make any sense, The Plan was to take control of Mata Nui's body, Teridax could easily leave Miserix in command of the Brotherhood if he did this.  Meaning Teridax didn't reveal that plan, he talked to the other makuta about something else, something that Miserix saw as a threat.  Then you also have to ask, why did so many of the makuta side with Teridax when their leader so openly opposed him?  Teridax told them they didn't have to take everyone else's abuse.  This, on one hand, would definitely be a threat to Miserix's station of command, as he had just been having everyone endure the hatred.  On the other, wasn't he a makuta as well?  Why would he disagree with Teridax's message?  Because he had been dealing with the same stuff.  For so long in fact that it was just the way it was supposed to be to him.  Because the status quo was working and hope is scary, especially after the massive amounts of time the makuta had lived without it.  Basically, this was an instance of 'Then Let Me Be Evil.'  The Brotherhood essentially said, "fine, you want us to be the bad guys, then we're the bad guys.  Oh hey, what's wrong?  We thought this was what you wanted us to be.  Who's laughing now?  Stop bleeding into the blasted carpet and take it like the big heroic toa you think you are."  And that's without any individual backstory, I'm sure if we had that it would be downright heartbreaking.   That's my theory, care to poke any holes in it?  Or show us your own?

[Thanks to The Iron Toa for showing me where I went wrong with the Six Kingdoms.]


Edited by generalvicron, Jan 20 2013 - 05:14 PM.

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#2 Offline Great Being Velika

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 01:05 PM

The Makuta started getting evil after they defeated the League of Six Kingdoms. Teridax realized that if THEY could do something like that there would be nobody to stop them, so Teridax overthrew Miserix, and forced all of the others to cooperate or he would kill them. Then Teridax put Mata Nui to sleep until the Toa woke him up.


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#3 Offline Lord Nektann

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 01:32 PM

So basically here's how this whole thing went down with the Makuta.

 

1. Mata Nui makes League of Six Kingdoms run by the six Barraki to conquer everybody. They end up getting corrupt. It's never stated why, but absolute power corrupts...absolutely 

 

2. Teridax defeats the Barraki as they try and overthrow Mata Nui, but as BL 6 says, he starts getting thoughts that he could pull it off. Because he's power-hungry, but due to his personality he makes grandiose schemes. He starts to do more evil stuff like Archives Massacre, annoyed that everybody worships Mata Nui for doing nothing, and not the Makuta for guarding and populating the universe with Rahi

 

3. Mutran visits Tren Krom and they link minds, Mutran learning the secrets of the universe. Mutran tells Teridax about this, Teridax realizing he can take down Mata Nui

 

4. Teridax tells Miserix who is a good guy, causing Teridax to beat him and kill any 'good' Makuta

 

5. The Plan part 1: Take Metru Nui. At first, Teridax is concerned only with Metru Nui. He infects Mata Nui, impersonates Dume. The plan is to put the Matoran in spheres, use the Vahi to speed up time, release Matoran. Matoran will think Teridax saved them, bow down to him. The rest of the universe will follow

 

6. Toa Metru interfere, and Teridax comes up with the plot to take over the robot and BE the universe. The rest is history.

 

So pretty much Makuta were jealous of Mata Nui and were ambitious, and got the idea from the Barraki.


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#4 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 02:36 PM

Alright, we all know the makuta, a race of beings that control shadow among forty-one other powers, most of which are deadly.  They are selfish by nature, aggressive, vindictive and willing to kill those that stand in their way without a second thought.  And they are very good at playing the long game.  It doesn't take a lot to see that these guys going bad in the first place, but, why did they go bad?  This thread is for everyone's theories regarding the fall of the Brotherhood, and how you came to your conclusion, I'll start.   "We hate you, because we cannot be you."  That's the line that made me stop, despite the fact that Tahu tries to brush it off like it's just small-talk.  Why couldn't they?  

 

I read that as they never had the qualities of true heroes - Krika said: "It's because you are what we could only pretend to be, once upon a time -- heroes who do good for no reward."

 

So even if they had a good reputation -- which they didn't always -- I guess some of them would be jealous of the pure goodness of Toa. That doesn't seem to be something Makuta like Teridax and Icarax would be concerned with, though. It's just one reason for the Makuta to be resentful. If Makuta are by nature selfish, I wonder if that would bother Krika more than others. Since he seems less evil, maybe he tried to fight that nature while Makuta like Teridax embraced it.

 

During the Brotherhood's war with the League of Six Kingdoms, there were no reinforcements from the toa or any other group, even though the Brotherhood were fighting to free the matoran universe from the Barraki's tyranny.  So basically, everyone looked at one hundred makuta against the vast armies of the six kingdoms and said, "eh, they can handle it."  

 

It wasn't just the Makuta against the League of Six Kingdoms. The Brotherhood had its own armies, and Toa did fight alongside them.

 

At this point I asked, "were the makuta already hated before they went bad?"

 

That is a good question though. Clearly they weren't unpopular enough for the good guys to see them as bad, but we know that the Archives Massacre left them feared and distrusted in Metru Nui.

 

  In "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet", Tuyet says she may take out the Brotherhood, even though the Brotherhood hadn't betrayed them yet and at the time Teridax was helping to defend Metru Nui against the Dark Hunters.  Instead of being even slightly confused as to why she would go after their allies, Lhikan just berates her for trying to instill her own will over a populous.

 

Good find, I didn't really think much of that quote. Maybe it has something to do with the Brotherhood's bad reputation in Metru Nui, but I think it's also just her going mad with power. Like, 'I can enforce order, we don't need the Brotherhood anymore. Watch how easily I can get rid of them, muahahaha!'

 

That and they don't mention him or anything about the western side of Metru Nui at any time during the story, so I can only assume that Teridax was stationed there, alone.

 

He was probably up in Mangaia.

 

During the Great Disturbance, Teridax believed it necessary to not only lock the combatants in the Onu-Metru archives, but to unleash some of the more deadly rahi on them in order to terrorize them into stopping their civil war.  As we've seen from Teridax's other activities, he works in incredibly subtle ways.  For him to decide that such drastic and involved measures needed to be taken, there must have been something else that guaranteed, at least in his eyes, that they wouldn't listen to him.

 

That's another good point. It seems more like Teridax to manipulate the Matoran and their war to bring about the best outcome for him. The Mutran Chronicles makes it sound like that was the first and last action taken by the Brotherhood to stop the war. I guess Teridax just wanted to send a clear message without any leniency or fooling around.

 

  Then when Teridax reveals his plan to the other makuta, Miserix sees it as a ploy to take control of the Brotherhood.  That doesn't make any sense, The Plan was to take control of Mata Nui's body, Teridax could easily leave Miserix in command of the Brotherhood if he did this.

 

Well, even if Miserix was left in command of the Brotherhood, he would still be second to Teridax in such a case. And that would be different than being second to Mata Nui, who didn't interfere much, because why would Teridax want to take Mata Nui's place unless he wanted to use that power?

 

Then you also have to ask, why did so many of the makuta side with Teridax when their leader so openly opposed him?  Teridax told them they didn't have to take everyone else's abuse.  This, on one hand, would definitely be a threat to Miserix's station of command, as he had just been having everyone endure the hatred.  On the other, wasn't he a makuta as well?  Why would he disagree with Teridax's message?  Because he had been dealing with the same stuff.  For so long in fact that it was just the way it was supposed to be to him.  Because the status quo was working and hope is scary, especially after the massive amounts of time the makuta had lived without it.

 

I think 'abuse' is too strong a word. The Makuta were a powerful race and organization, they weren't being kicked around. Unfortunately, we don't know much about the other people in the Matoran Universe and what they thought of the Makuta. But like I said, they weren't disliked enough for the Toa or Order of Mata Nui to see them as evil and depose them. You make Miserix sound kind of like a coward that's too afraid to do anything but accept his lousy life. I guess that's what Teridax wanted the other Makuta to think. Really, though, Miserix was right in the end. Teridax did lead the other Makuta to their deaths, and although he succeeded, his reign didn't last long.

 

  Basically, this was an instance of 'Then Let Me Be Evil.'  The Brotherhood essentially said, "fine, you want us to be the bad guys, then we're the bad guys.  Oh hey, what's wrong?  We thought this was what you wanted us to be.  Who's laughing now?  Stop bleeding into the blasted carpet and take it like the big heroic toa you think you are."  And that's without any individual backstory, I'm sure if we had that it would be downright heartbreaking.   That's my theory, care to poke any holes in it?  Or show us your own?

 

So, I think you're exaggerating how unpopular the Makuta were. Some probably had a fearful respect for them, maybe some scorned them even early on in history (like those who would rather have the League of Six Kingdoms still around), but they weren't the victims you seem to be portraying them as. They just didn't get the recognition they felt they deserved. However, you did give me an interesting idea...

 

What if Teridax deliberately tarnished the Brotherhood's reputation, so his brothers and sisters would be resentful and willing to aid him in his Plan? He didn't care about the other Makuta, and wouldn't care about what his subjects thought of him as long as he was in control.


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#5 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 02:42 PM

At this point I asked, "were the makuta already hated before they went bad?"

 

That is a good question though. Clearly they weren't unpopular enough for the good guys to see them as bad, but we know that the Archives Massacre left them feared and distrusted in Metru Nui.

 

Spiriah and the Raid of Arthaka mosk likely made it whorse.


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#6 Online The Iron Toa

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 04:00 PM

Spiriah and the Raid of Arthaka mosk likely made it whorse.

 

Spiriah, yes. I forgot about Spiriah. The Raid on Artakha was much later, and when news of that got out it was clear they were evil. I'm not sure that was common knowledge, though, but at least the Order of Mata Nui knew about it.


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#7 Offline Lord Nektann

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 04:01 PM

At this point I asked, "were the makuta already hated before they went bad?"

 

That is a good question though. Clearly they weren't unpopular enough for the good guys to see them as bad, but we know that the Archives Massacre left them feared and distrusted in Metru Nui.

 

Spiriah and the Raid of Arthaka mosk likely made it whorse.

Referring to BS01's MU History Timeline, Spiriah's incident was after Teridax took over. (Which makes sense, as he imprisoned Miserix afterwords so was still in the BoM). Kojol's Artakha raid was much much later and likely wasn't well know due to the isolation of the island. 


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#8 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 04:12 PM

An answer to the first question is easy findable.Look at nearly all persons you know who had and the power and the oppurtunity for absolute power. Power corrupts, like the Ring in LOTR you can't have it long and know it power before you'll get evil yourself. The same thing happened to the Makuta they had the power and later the knowledge to take over the universe, so they did. If you could take over the universe, would you?, most likely yes.
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#9 Guest_generalvicron_*

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 05:08 PM

I read that as they never had the qualities of true heroes - Krika said: "It's because you are what we could only pretend to be, once upon a time -- heroes who do good for no reward."

 

So even if they had a good reputation -- which they didn't always -- I guess some of them would be jealous of the pure goodness of Toa. That doesn't seem to be something Makuta like Teridax and Icarax would be concerned with, though. It's just one reason for the Makuta to be resentful. If Makuta are by nature selfish, I wonder if that would bother Krika more than others. Since he seems less evil, maybe he tried to fight that nature while Makuta like Teridax embraced it.

 

  The key word in that part of Krika's statement is "reward".  They couldn't do it without getting something back, which implies they weren't, at least not in their eyes.  And a selfish nature would make this hurt even more, a guardian that is selfish in nature sees its charges as essentially their property.  Any attack against the defended is an attack against the defender.  On the other hand, toa, as they are not selfish, fight because the defended was attacked, instead of taking it personally.  I think that is what Krika meant by that bit of his statement.  Whether or not detachment from the thing you're supposed to be protecting is a quality of a true hero is a matter of perspective.

 

 

 

It wasn't just the Makuta against the League of Six Kingdoms. The Brotherhood had its own armies, and Toa did fight alongside them.

 

I just went back and re-read those bits, and you're right, sorry.  I did most of this from memory.

 

 

 

 

Good find, I didn't really think much of that quote. Maybe it has something to do with the Brotherhood's bad reputation in Metru Nui, but I think it's also just her going mad with power. Like, 'I can enforce order, we don't need the Brotherhood anymore. Watch how easily I can get rid of them, muahahaha!'

 

  Remember, I put these in chronological order.  The Archives Massacre hadn't happened yet, there was no real reason for them to have a bad reputation.  And even when she was mad with power she still believed that she shouldn't attack anything that didn't present an imminent threat.  Meaning she considered the Brotherhood a likely danger.

 

 

 

He was probably up in Mangaia.

 

  Why?  There's a war going on in the place he's supposed to be protecting.  There's no way he'd just sit back and watch.  This relates back to the fact that they are by nature selfish, an attack on Metru Nui would be a personal affront to him.

 

 

 

Well, even if Miserix was left in command of the Brotherhood, he would still be second to Teridax in such a case. And that would be different than being second to Mata Nui, who didn't interfere much, because why would Teridax want to take Mata Nui's place unless he wanted to use that power?

 

The answer to that was written all over Teridax's lines and roles throughout the series.  He wanted to be the important one, he wanted to be the one people looked to, he wanted to be at the top.

 

 

 

I think 'abuse' is too strong a word. The Makuta were a powerful race and organization, they weren't being kicked around. Unfortunately, we don't know much about the other people in the Matoran Universe and what they thought of the Makuta. But like I said, they weren't disliked enough for the Toa or Order of Mata Nui to see them as evil and depose them. You make Miserix sound kind of like a coward that's too afraid to do anything but accept his lousy life. I guess that's what Teridax wanted the other Makuta to think. Really, though, Miserix was right in the end. Teridax did lead the other Makuta to their deaths, and although he succeeded, his reign didn't last long.

 

  Abuse has many meanings.  You see a child sitting in his home, he's dirty, a little bruised up, it only seems to get progressively worse as time goes on.  His parents didn't do it, but they refuse to help him fix it either.  That's neglect, an often overlooked form of abuse.  His parents don't believe him when he says he didn't do it on purpose, even if they saw it happen.  That's unearned distrust, another form of passive abuse.  Someone breaks into the house, the child manages to wrestle a gun away from the intruder and kills him, now his parents are afraid, they try to avoid him as best they can.  That's irrational fear, yet another form.  I chose the word abuse as a general term for the patterns I saw.

  The toa and the Order will not attack without cause, the Brotherhood had not yet given them a cause.  That didn't stop them from distrusting the makuta, or from stealing the tablet which held a record of every member of the Brotherhood and their weaknesses.

  You don't have to be a coward to fight for the way you believe things should be.  One of the things that made Miserix such a ruthless and efficient leader was that he didn't think he had anything to lose other than his place as leader of the Brotherhood.  With hope, he suddenly has a whole lot more to lose, that's terrifying.

 

 

 

So, I think you're exaggerating how unpopular the Makuta were. Some probably had a fearful respect for them, maybe some scorned them even early on in history (like those who would rather have the League of Six Kingdoms still around), but they weren't the victims you seem to be portraying them as. They just didn't get the recognition they felt they deserved.

 

  This is just a cultural overview, if we had more information on them as individuals it would definitely clear up the issue.  I didn't really want to get into specifics, because all I have are behavioral patterns to work off of.  Which, while able to tell you a lot about a person and their past, are rarely specific enough for these sorts of analysis.

 

 

 

However, you did give me an interesting idea...

 

What if Teridax deliberately tarnished the Brotherhood's reputation, so his brothers and sisters would be resentful and willing to aid him in his Plan? He didn't care about the other Makuta, and wouldn't care about what his subjects thought of him as long as he was in control.

 

  Now this, this I agree with.  It's obvious Teridax was a sociopath, Greg said so himself.  And his destruction of the rest of his species shows that he hated them, if for no other reason than because he was forced into the same boat.  While I said that I can't give specific scenarios, based on the behavior patterns I can make educated guesses for some of them.

 

  Teridax was either born that way or was put through an ordeal so horrific that he doesn't see anything less as a real problem.

  Krika did something he never forgave himself for.

  Someone decided it would be a good idea to tarnish Antroz's honor, probably Teridax or some other manipulative ###### who then pinned it on the toa or matoran.

  Chirox was simply too good at his job, earning the fear of everyone wherever he lived, and he liked it.

  Mutran had a full on mental showdown with Tren Krom.  Alright, this one is canon, but it is also canon that simply looking at the ###### can drive you nuts.  It's impressive that Mutran speaks any language other than screaming.

  Bitil has massive self asteem issues, there are so many things this can stem from that I can't even begin to guess.

  Gorast literally needs someone to trust, she was probably betrayed by someone close to her.

  And Vamprah, oh Vamprah.  He's a tough one, as we have no speech to go off of.  Instead we have to look at his actions, specifically the ones near the end of the Mistika series.  And how the only one who would have had any idea who he really was reacted to being taken away from him.  I thought it was odd how Takanuva found Gavla alone, in a cave, while Vamprah was out fighting.  And how Gavla doesn't really show up once the toa find out about the klakk.  Vamprah still shows up, fighting blind and rather well.  Meaning Vamprah wanted to protect Gavla, he wanted to keep her out of harms way.  And he was so dedicated to this that he was willing to fight blind.  Vamprah was the Makuta of Odina, otherwise known as the base of the Brotherhood's sworn enemies, The Dark Hunters.  Vamprah failed to protect Odina from them, so I have to assume Vamprah joined Teridax for revenge against the Hunters.  Then later found a bit of his natural possessiveness and need to protect awakened by Gavla, who reacted to being taken from him in much the same manner as a small child reacts to being dropped off at school for the first time.  She didn't want to go, because she belonged with her father, in this case Vamprah.  Also notice how Vamprah doesn't show up again after that, he just drops off the face of Karda Nui, almost like he became depressed and hid to wallow in his own sorrow, for having failed again.  I think Vamprah failed once, then joined Teridax so it wouldn't happen again, which it did anyway.


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#10 Online ChroXumo

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 05:09 PM

[color=#808080;]Yeah, everyone's answered this pretty well. To add to it, I think that Spiriah and Kojol wouldn't have done their various things if they hadn't had Teridax and the Brotherhood's potential rule of the universe (which wasn't realized, as we know) at their backs.[/color]

 "Who's laughing now?  Stop bleeding into the blasted carpet and take it like the big heroic toa you think you are."

[color=#808080;]Good line. I may have to use that (with permission). :lol:[/color]


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#11 Guest_generalvicron_*

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Posted Jan 20 2013 - 05:19 PM

An answer to the first question is easy findable.Look at nearly all persons you know who had and the power and the oppurtunity for absolute power. Power corrupts, like the Ring in LOTR you can't have it long and know it power before you'll get evil yourself. The same thing happened to the Makuta they had the power and later the knowledge to take over the universe, so they did. If you could take over the universe, would you?, most likely yes.

But don't the toa contradict this rule for the most part?  Sure there are Tuyets and Nidikis now and then, but almost every single makuta went bad.  And then there's Helryx, she's not even bound by the Toa Code, and yet she's never tried to take over.  That power corrupts may be true in some cases, but there are too many exceptions in this universe for that to be used here.

 

 

Yeah, everyone's answered this pretty well. To add to it, I think that Spiriah and Kojol wouldn't have done their various things if they hadn't had Teridax and the Brotherhood's potential rule of the universe (which wasn't realized, as we know) at their backs.

"Who's laughing now?  Stop bleeding into the blasted carpet and take it like the big heroic toa you think you are."

Good line. I may have to use that (with permission). :lol:

Yeah, you can use it.  Just be sure to tell them who gave it to ya.;)


Edited by bonesiii, Jan 21 2013 - 04:26 AM.
Double post merged. -bones

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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 21 2013 - 04:25 AM

You raise some interesting points and questions. I'm a bit rusty on this subject, but I saw some possible logic errors to point out. (Or perhaps just poor wording in some cases. :P)My short answer for this is that people vary, and people tend to have temptations, and then some will fall to them. All Makuta who didn't fall to these were killed, basically. Though some like Krika were "not as horrible" as others.Your basic theory seems to be that there was suspicion that the Makuta were evil long before it was revealed. No doubt this was somewhat true, and in a few cases like the Toa Hagah they did know earlier than most, but it apparently cannot have been widespread, due to the honest surprise shown by the Toa Metru (who previously were normal citizens in Metru Nui) when Teridax revealed himself.At that point they had realized that the Dume they were facing cannot have been the real Dume as he was not behaving consistently with him, yet their minds did not go to the well-known local shapeshifter. This says it all -- clearly they had a deep trust in Makuta. 

they are very good at playing the long game

Well, Teridax was, anyways. But then, he had some help. It was his destiny to take over the giant robot, and (so) he found out information from Tren Krom through Mutran. He learned, thus, how the long game COULD work, and fell to the temptation to try it. Besides, given that all these beings live vastly long, "long games" are not that foreign to anybody really. :PAnyways, my point is, don't assume that just because one guy did who happened to be a Makuta, that is a trait of all Makuta. 

"We hate you, because we cannot be you."  That's the line that made me stop, despite the fact that Tahu tries to brush it off like it's just small-talk.

What is this from? Probably something from 2008? I don't recall. 

Or it's also possible he just hated the makuta so much it leaked into his writing on the times before they went bad.  I'm going to assume it's one of the first two.

Who are we talking about now? I'm confused. Which character spoke that line? And who are you saying hated the Makuta and leaked this into their writing? 

During the Brotherhood's war with the League of Six Kingdoms, there were no reinforcements from the toa or any other group, even though the Brotherhood were fighting to free the matoran universe from the Barraki's tyranny.

I don't know where you got that idea. BS01's League page says:

 

The Brotherhood, having been informed of the plan by Takadox, assembled a massive army of Toa, Exo-Toa, Rahi and Rahkshi.

So basically, everyone looked at one hundred makuta against the vast armies of the six kingdoms and said, "eh, they can handle it."  Granted, they were right, but this shows a level of callous hatred that borders on self destructive.

That's quite a leap, don't you think? Even if the Toa didn't help (they did), believing your uberpowerful beings capable of handling a problem, accurately, is not necessarily hatred. Hatred is something motivating something negative, often violent. This isn't there at all.I'll grant you it could come off as callous. But you were incorrect about that. If you're referring to Matoran, they had jobs to do; they weren't supposed to be doing heroey things. That's what Toa were for. 

At this point I asked, "were the makuta already hated before they went bad?"

Again, there's no reason that occasional hatred is impossible. But I see no reason to think very many, if anyone, actively hated them before they went bad.Also, are you really talking about before they went bad or after but before they went public with this? Those are two very different things, and from pre-reading your post before I began this reply, it appears you're taking some things that happened in the second period as evidence for the first. But deceivers who are evil while pretending to be good could earn vague, gut-reaction type negative feelings from others, quite naturally. Hating someone who's actually good is a totally different thing. So those examples shouldn't really be used as evidence for a pre-bad hatred.Also, why would they be hated before they'd done anything to earn it? Even with real racism, there's usually some bad experience with one or more actual people to fuel the Hasty Generalization that then leads to the racism. In other words, a few actually bad people that are wrongly assumed to be representative of the whole group. (Plus of course the fallacy that wrongdoing is best replied with hate, rather than forgiveness and work to improve, but that's another subject.) But you're saying they might have been hated prior to doing anything bad at all.Why would that be so? 

In "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet", Tuyet says she may take out the Brotherhood, even though the Brotherhood hadn't betrayed them yet and at the time Teridax was helping to defend Metru Nui against the Dark Hunters.

Foggy mem, but I presume you're talking about her final "muahahahaha--*fail*" speech. She'd been outed as evil, and the murderer of several Matoran, just prior to that speech. So we wouldn't expect her statements from then on to come from good motives that would be shared by the people of Metru Nui. She is their enemy, and as far as they know, the Brotherhood is their ally, therefore it's perfectly natural that she'd also be the Brotherhood's enemy.And if she wants to go evil, knowing there are such superpowerful good guys helping protect the people, naturally she would be focused on them and not make a move until she found a way to become powerful enough to overthrow or at least defend herself against even them. 

Instead of being even slightly confused as to why she would go after their allies, Lhikan just berates her for trying to instill her own will over a populous.

You seem to still be under the impression that Lhikan was confused as to whether she was still an ally of him and the Matoran. No, she's revealed to be an enemy, and a horrific one at that who has just murdered.At least that's what I seem to recall. If the exact quotes would show differently we can bring them in here. 

That and they don't mention him or anything about the western side of Metru Nui at any time during the story, so I can only assume that Teridax was stationed there, alone.  Again displaying the same near self destructive disregard for the makuta.  This isn't just thinking he can handle it, this is willful ignoring him.

You have a point here, but my guess is that Greg simply did not want to tell yet another story about Makuta for Many Deaths. And we shouldn't assume such things. Makuta seems to have played virtually no role in the normal course of events in Metru Nui, and it's not clear how often he was actually there or what he was doing when there (at least as far as I know). 

During the Great Disturbance, Teridax believed it necessary to not only lock the combatants in the Onu-Metru archives, but to unleash some of the more deadly rahi on them in order to terrorize them into stopping their civil war.  As we've seen from Teridax's other activities, he works in incredibly subtle ways.  For him to decide that such drastic and involved measures needed to be taken, there must have been something else that guaranteed, at least in his eyes, that they wouldn't listen to him.

Another good point, but then if there was some such pre-existing hatred, distrust, or whatever against him, why the surprise at his reveal in Legends of Metru Nui?Also, don't forget that Makuta was portrayed as preferring to work through servants including Rahi, prior to around 2007. There was an appearance of a decision made by Teridax at that time to stop doing this and to act himself. Not sure if that was merely for show as part of the Plan, but either way, Makuta using Rahi for his goals in the past perfectly fits this. What you're seeing as drastic measures to get over some imagined discriminatory closemindedness is really laziness, apparently. He didn't need them to listen to him. He had plenty of powers to stun them all (or kill if he felt it was needed due to being a war) himself.So, you're trying to see him as a good guy at this point who had no choice, but this does not appear accurate.Here's what BS01 says about this: 

WarfareArguments between Matoran escalated into combat, and the denizens of Metru Nui began fighting in the streets. Work was eventually abandoned by most Matoran, and large sections of the city were destroyed during the war. The Turaga at the time was ineffective, and could not prevent the fighting.Makuta Mutran unleashed several destructive Rahi into the city, under the cover of the mayhem.Archives MassacreMiserix eventually ordered his trusted lieutenant, Teridax, to halt the fighting. Teridax took a large number of the Matoran fighters and locked them in the Archives. He then released the various exhibits on the Matoran, killing a large number of them. The battle would later be known as the Archives Massacre, and put an end to the fighting. However, it gave the Makuta a very bad reputation in Metru Nui.

Notice that Mutran did something using Rahi too at this time. We have to keep in mind that the primary purpose of the Makuta to begin with was to make Rahi. It would be natural for them to think first of using them as their method of gaining their goals.Now it did give them a bad rep, but remember that Matoran did violent things too, and there is no such hatred between the types of Matoran. And this bad rep is probably deserved.Also, do we know at what point the majority of Makuta became evil? My sense is that due to the lack of high praise from others (not at all the same thing as discriminatory hatred; more a taking for granted), many had already become ambitious.The BS01 Makuta page says this: 

Miserix, in the wake of the Matoran Civil War, appointed each Makuta to a certain region of the universe, in order to enforce the peace in their area and prevent another uprising.After the defeat of the Barraki, the Makuta Teridax began to develop thoughts of overthrowing the Great Spirit. After gathering knowledge from Mutran, who had obtained it from Tren Krom, he proposed the idea to the rest of the Brotherhood, the majority of which sided with him. Five Makuta remained loyal to Miserix, however, and after defeating Miserix, Teridax ordered their deaths. Miserix was secretly imprisoned on Artidax by Krika, defying Teridax's order of killing the former Brotherhood leader.Originally biomechanical, the Makuta race eventually evolved to a state of pure energy, in which they no longer had to eat, sleep, breathe, or could feel pain. This evolution was first noticed by Bitil, and Chirox learned by examining a sample of Kojol's essence what had happened to them. Teridax ordered the Nynrah Ghosts to assist them by modifying their new armor. Soon after, the Makuta made a collective decision to shun their inner light, becoming true creatures of shadow.

So the Civil War was prior to the draining of inner light. However, is this the first time they became "bad"? No. They made a conscious choice to do that. It was no accident.They went bad long before this, but they might not have been consciously certain about it for a while. That's often how temptation works. But at some point, probably long before Terry's takeover of the Brotherhood, most of them had probably chosen evil (whether consciously or subconsciously; they were "bad").Likely this was prior to the Civil War. Notice Mutran's releasing dangerous Rahi but trying to hide it. It seems to me that they were already evil and intent on hiding that to some extent.   

Afterwards, Teridax's actions led to makuta everywhere being even further distrusted by matoran and toa.  This is the kind of behavior frequently exhibited by people attempting to justify racism.

That's a huge stretch. They're all well aware that he didn't have to release exhibits on these people and kill them. He had ways to stun them all and then imprison them, etc. In other words, it's also the reaction of good people who are not content when someone in power makes a bad call.Yes, this could have led to racism (that one real person doing something actuall bad, leading to a Hasty Generalization), but if it did, must not have been very strong. And you started out trying to use this as evidence of pre-existing racism; that doesn't work. There is no good reason for Terry to have needed to do that.Also, most likely with the centuries it was forgotten for the most part, as is common with politics. It may have had something to do with why he rarely seems to interact with Metru Nui since then in fact; a choice intended to help people forget by not reminding them of his existence much. Along the lines of being evil but still trying to hide it, that is, even that early.      

Then when Teridax reveals his plan to the other makuta, Miserix sees it as a ploy to take control of the Brotherhood.  That doesn't make any sense

Only if you make the mistake of thinking they didn't become bad until they drained their inner light, but that is false. They were already evil, ambitious, selfish, and schemers. Miserix was spot-on in seeing it as such a ploy. That was what it was. But of course, his eye was on something even bigger than merely the Brotherhood.     

The Plan was to take control of Mata Nui's body, Teridax could easily leave Miserix in command of the Brotherhood if he did this.

But they'd still have to do as he wished. We saw what he was capable of in 2009 while in charge. The only reasons you didn't see similar "thought police" type activity with Mata Nui in charge was that he wasn't evil, and didn't care about what the people inside thought or did as long as they kept him operating. Had Mata Nui wanted to, he could have been the real ruler of the Brotherhood. Miserix would just be a middleman, if not a figurehead. Besides, why would not Miserix think he should be the one to takeover rather than this little upstart lieutenant? ;)     

Meaning Teridax didn't reveal that plan, he talked to the other makuta about something else, something that Miserix saw as a threat.  Then you also have to ask, why did so many of the makuta side with Teridax when their leader so openly opposed him?  Teridax told them they didn't have to take everyone else's abuse.

This would make for an interesting Mirror, Mirror type alternate universe (Star Trek reference), but it's not the case. Terry did talk about what Greg said he did. ;) See the BS01 quote above.      

This, on one hand, would definitely be a threat to Miserix's station of command, as he had just been having everyone endure the hatred.  On the other, wasn't he a makuta as well?  Why would he disagree with Teridax's message?  Because he had been dealing with the same stuff.  For so long in fact that it was just the way it was supposed to be to him.  Because the status quo was working and hope is scary, especially after the massive amounts of time the makuta had lived without it.

This part would be logical, but we have no evidence Terry made such an appeal. You seem to be trying to take out what he is canonically confirmed to have talked about, and using this as the replacement, but that cannot work for a theory. At best you could speculate that he made an appeal like this as a secondary thing that somehow never got mentioned canonically, but theories are supposed to have evidence.What I see evidence for is that after the Makuta had reacted with jealousy against the people's praise for Mata Nui, they went down the evil path very early on (and any that didn't were later killed) and intentionally, and then by various means tried to hide it, and did so usually successfully, leading to widespread praise and trust. After all, why found such a revolution on jealousy if they didn't then seek what they were jealous about?They knew they would never replace Mata Nui in the people's eyes until they did, hence the Plan, but the kind of clearly negative reactions you're theorizing don't seem to be the case. Rather, it was a lack of the top positive reaction that they were upset about -- in other words, they were selfish.However, there -was- one thing about this that is confirmed to not be their faults; how Mata Nui tended to ignore the goings-on in here, and did not himself point to them in praise for the sake of the people. He just ignored everybody, and allowed the chance for that jealousy to crop up. In that one way, the Makuta were not entirely to blame. But this would not naturally lead to discriminatory hatred prior to being bad."The Brotherhood essentially said, "fine, you want us to be the bad guys, then we're the bad guys.  Oh hey, what's wrong?  We thought this was what you wanted us to be."Something like this might have gone on in their twisted minds, but I doubt it was common because it doesn't really fit the situation. What they were upset about was being taken for granted, as just another part to the whole harmonious society rather than the focus of praise above all others. And this itself requires pre-existing (early-developing) selfishness, the root of evil. Nobody wanted them to be bad guys and none of them would ever honestly feel so, as I read it.Hope this helps. :)             Other replies (switching to quote marks and bold as the code won't handle that many quote tags):  "The Makuta started getting evil after they defeated the League of Six Kingdoms. Teridax realized that if THEY could do something like that there would be nobody to stop them, so Teridax overthrew Miserix, and forced all of the others to cooperate or he would kill them."According to BS01, the thoughts of overthrowing Mata Nui happened after that; not necessarily the "started getting evil." You don't really start to plan a takeover unless you're already well down the path of evil. :P"Mata Nui makes League of Six Kingdoms run by the six Barraki to conquer everybody. They end up getting corrupt. It's never stated why, but absolute power corrupts...absolutely"Although you were probably just quoting the figure of speech for fun), absolute power does not corrupt necessarily. Mata Nui had it and remained good. The why is pretty simple -- in any varied society with freewill, you will have some who have the temptation (whether in power or out) to commit various wrongs, and you will have some of those who feel those temptations who will fall to it. It's basic statistics, really. Others, whether in power or out, will not feel those temptations, and still others will feel those temptations but turn down actually doing the wrongs because they believe in doing good."Teridax tells Miserix who is a good guy, causing Teridax to beat him and kill any 'good' Makuta"I'm not so sure Miserix was a good guy. It may just be the name, implying that he was miserable by personality from the start or possibly tended to spread misery. But he also seemed kill-happy. I see him as a more gray-area type of guy, leaning good, but with his own selfish ambition and capacity for holding grudges and acting on them."The plan is to put the Matoran in spheres, use the Vahi to speed up time, release Matoran. Matoran will think Teridax saved them, bow down to him. The rest of the universe will follow"I agree with this part; well said. :)"6. Toa Metru interfere, and Teridax comes up with the plot to take over the robot and BE the universe. The rest is history."No, the idea to takeover was at least as far back as Mutran's Tren Krom intel! And likely as far back as the Barraki war. It was certainly not some afterthought or Plan B. The "rest of the universe following" would be motivated towards helping them accept his takeover, likely under the guise of saving them from an unavoidable death of Mata Nui, portraying him as the rescuer who takes over only to save their lives. Then he'd get that top praise he was after from the start."However, you did give me an interesting idea...What if Teridax deliberately tarnished the Brotherhood's reputation, so his brothers and sisters would be resentful and willing to aid him in his Plan? He didn't care about the other Makuta, and wouldn't care about what his subjects thought of him as long as he was in control."Brilliant!BTW, something I forgot to add above -- TerryMack's normally subtle approaches are things he does for his non-public, Plan-oriented, and especially his true goal-oriented actions. That doesn't apply to the Archives Massacre because that was public. So to appear hopeless inept and appealing to brutish bludgeoney strategies there makes perfect sense. If instead he showed off great judgement and nuance brilliance there, likely he would risk others realizing how clever he is and this would of course hurt his ability to manipulate subtly in the future.(By separating the Plan from his true goals I'm talking about his killing of the Makuta who helped him get into power; they knew the rest of it, but that was something he kept totally to himself.)So anyways, intentionally tarnishing does fit that sort of subtle thing. He would both be hiding his manipulative nature publicly, and using it at the same time, both to move public sentiment and to in turn affect his pawns, the other Makuta. Makes sense.But yeah, there was no widespread, intense hatred of Makuta along the lines of racism."Look at nearly all persons you know who had and the power and the oppurtunity for absolute power. Power corrupts, like the Ring in LOTR you can't have it long and know it power before you'll get evil yourself."Interesting analogy, but keep in mind Tolkien went out of his way to remind the reader that the Ring was not a neutral power; it itself was evil because it was made by the evil Sauron for that purpose, and basically seemed to be incrementally "downloading" an evil alternate persona into people who possessed it, leading to eventually full schizophrenia, as especially shown well in the movie version of Gollum, with the invading personality being the Ring's evil personified.Power itself does not corrupt, despite how cool-sounding that idea makes that figure of speech. :P A lack of morals corrupts. And this may lead to stronger temptation when such a person has power, but it's still not really the power that is doing the actual corrupting."Remember, I put these in chronological order.  The Archives Massacre hadn't happened yet, there was no real reason for them to have a bad reputation.  And even when she was mad with power she still believed that she shouldn't attack anything that didn't present an imminent threat.  Meaning she considered the Brotherhood a likely danger."I must be misunderstanding you, as it seems we're talking about Tuyet? That was not before the Archives Massacre. Sorry if I've lost track of what we're talking about here with all these pronouns. :P By the time of Tuyet's murders and out, there had been countless centuries for bad reps to build up... and also for them to fade, though, as with politics.But maybe we should get the exact quote and source name that you're talking about, to avoid any further confusion."Why?  There's a war going on in the place he's supposed to be protecting.  There's no way he'd just sit back and watch.  This relates back to the fact that they are by nature selfish, an attack on Metru Nui would be a personal affront to him."So we're not talking about Many Deaths? The DH/Toa war, maybe? What?"The answer to that was written all over Teridax's lines and roles throughout the series.  He wanted to be the important one, he wanted to be the one people looked to, he wanted to be at the top.["So you're saying, he would have wanted to keep Miserix in charge? But how could Miserix be sure of such a thing, and how do you square that with the fact that Terry slaughtered the other Makuta, even the most loyal like Gorast?"Abuse has many meanings.  You see a child sitting in his home, he's dirty, a little bruised up, it only seems to get progressively worse as time goes on.  His parents didn't do it, but they refuse to help him fix it either.  That's neglect, an often overlooked form of abuse."I hardly think an analogy of a neglected child applies to the Makuta! They're fully "adult" and they are well-more than capable of looking out for themselves. :PNOTE: In part of writing the above I was under the impression due to the BS01 Makuta page that the Archives Massacre happened before the Barraki war, but the Timeline debunks that, pardon if that error crept through into the posted version anywhere, out of time to proofread, heh.


Edited by bonesiii, Jan 21 2013 - 04:30 AM.

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#13 Online Dual Cee

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Posted Jan 21 2013 - 11:33 AM

Phew just read the giant block of lettres from Bonesii. Actually we have a perfect test subject (Alternate Terry) who stated:   
"Yes, I never noticed your entry, I must admit. But did you really think a pale and weak version of myself could stop me now?""Weak? Stronger, I say, for I resisted the temptations you could not."
Which we can take as explanation the "Absolute Power" corrupted the Makuta(At least Mr Terry) because in the Melding White Teridax didn't get a chance to take over the Universe.

Edited by Dual Matrix, Jan 21 2013 - 11:35 AM.

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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 21 2013 - 07:16 PM

Phew just read the giant block of lettres from Bonesii. Actually we have a perfect test subject (Alternate Terry) who stated:   

"Yes, I never noticed your entry, I must admit. But did you really think a pale and weak version of myself could stop me now?""Weak? Stronger, I say, for I resisted the temptations you could not."
Which we can take as explanation the "Absolute Power" corrupted the Makuta(At least Mr Terry) because in the Melding White Teridax didn't get a chance to take over the Universe.

Interesting take. But wouldn't that rob his statement of its meaning? He would not actually be stronger for having resisted the same temptation. He'd merely be the same, but lucky in that he didn't have to face that temptation. The fact that he does see himself as stronger seems to counter that argument.

 

Also, even in the Melding, he probably could have come up with some kind of scheme to conquer the known world if he'd fallen to that temptation. And IMO Teridax Core went evil long before the idea of the takeover had occured to him (after the Barraki), so he fell to temptation before he realized he would have such a chance (or so I think).


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#15 Offline Lord Nektann

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Posted Jan 21 2013 - 07:40 PM

In "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet", Tuyet says she may take out the Brotherhood, even though the Brotherhood hadn't betrayed them yet and at the time Teridax was helping to defend Metru Nui against the Dark Hunters.

Foggy mem, but I presume you're talking about her final "muahahahaha--*fail*" speech. She'd been outed as evil, and the murderer of several Matoran, just prior to that speech. So we wouldn't expect her statements from then on to come from good motives that would be shared by the people of Metru Nui. She is their enemy, and as far as they know, the Brotherhood is their ally, therefore it's perfectly natural that she'd also be the Brotherhood's enemy.And if she wants to go evil, knowing there are such superpowerful good guys helping protect the people, naturally she would be focused on them and not make a move until she found a way to become powerful enough to overthrow or at least defend herself against even them.

In Dark Mirror, the alt universe where Tuyet wins, she persecutes the Makuta. The Makuta are hiding in the Archives. So, you're right, she treated the BoM just like other villains and non-compliant Toa.

 

"Mata Nui makes League of Six Kingdoms run by the six Barraki to conquer everybody. They end up getting corrupt. It's never stated why, but absolute power corrupts...absolutely"

 

Although you were probably just quoting the figure of speech for fun), absolute power does not corrupt necessarily. Mata Nui had it and remained good. The why is pretty simple -- in any varied society with freewill, you will have some who have the temptation (whether in power or out) to commit various wrongs, and you will have some of those who feel those temptations who will fall to it. It's basic statistics, really. Others, whether in power or out, will not feel those temptations, and still others will feel those temptations but turn down actually doing the wrongs because they believe in doing good.

l was using it just for fun, but generally I think the Barraki got so big they didn't think they needed Mata Nui. Obviously Mata Nui isn't doing anything, so they might have been trying to take him out. This was by taking Metru Nui, as in BL 6, the Barraki are reviewing plans to take Metru Nui. Same as Teridax, they thought that Metru Nui was really 'the universe'.

 

"Teridax tells Miserix who is a good guy, causing Teridax to beat him and kill any 'good' Makuta"I'm not so sure Miserix was a good guy. It may just be the name, implying that he was miserable by personality from the start or possibly tended to spread misery. But he also seemed kill-happy. I see him as a more gray-area type of guy, leaning good, but with his own selfish ambition and capacity for holding grudges and acting on them.

We haven't seen Miserix do anything necessarily evil or against the general 'good' inn story. Krika references in BL 11 that the BoM meant something when Miserix led it, so I can see him at first as maybe a good ruler. Now he's just out for revenge, and hasn't really done anything bad

 

"6. Toa Metru interfere, and Teridax comes up with the plot to take over the robot and BE the universe. The rest is history."No, the idea to takeover was at least as far back as Mutran's Tren Krom intel! And likely as far back as the Barraki war. It was certainly not some afterthought or Plan B. The "rest of the universe following" would be motivated towards helping them accept his takeover, likely under the guise of saving them from an unavoidable death of Mata Nui, portraying him as the rescuer who takes over only to save their lives. Then he'd get that top praise he was after from the start.

It seems a little hard to believe that if Teridax's plan in 2004 succeeded, the Inika would've saved Mata Nui. BS01's Mata Nui's Reawakening Page (which right now is really just Teridax's Plan) states: "Teridax realized he could widen the scope of his ambition to taking control of the entire universe, by replacing Mata Nui's spirit." In Makuta's Guide it reads: "I sought only to disable Mata Nui and show the Matoran who they should truly be worshipping." This is quite telling as it shows that Teridax never thought of actually slipping into Mata Nui's body. In fact, we don't know for sure when he actually realized that Mata Nui was a gigantic robot. It could very well have been while making his way up to the island Mata Nui where he realized Mata Nui was a robot. (Even during the Dark Time he could have, as he realized that Mata Nui was dying. Or even the year he gave Vakama in Time Trap) But yes, the Makuta's Guide states his 'small' ambitions at first involved only felling Mata Nui. 


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#16 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jan 22 2013 - 01:44 AM

It seems a little hard to believe that if Teridax's plan in 2004 succeeded, the Inika would've saved Mata Nui.

It's hard to believe Terry could ever takeover either, or that the Inika ever would have saved Mata Nui. Or, once those two things happened, that Mata Nui would still make things right, but those things happened. Keep in mind Terry is Mr. Plans Within Plans. He would find a way to ensure that whatever was necessary would happen, and there isn't just one way for those things to all happen. Parts of what happened in the actual Core Dimension were not necessary to his plan.

 

However, it's also possible he never really intended to use the Vahi and it was just another planned "defeat." The reason I doubt this is that we got his POV in Time Trap and he seemed to genuinely want it. Therefore, apparently he must have had a plan in place for its use plus the rest of what was needed. :)

 

 

As for the Barraki, I basically think (to add on to the general principle) that it was a case of naivete. Mata Nui had not yet imagined that his creations could go awry, maybe not even have freewill, so he just assigned them to their job and assume it would go as he ordered. With hindsight he would likely put them through some kind of character tests, possibly even getting to know them personally somehow (I'm talking full hindsight here), so he'd know he was putting good peoples in power. But he had no way of knowing he needed to test for that beforehand.

 

 

 

 

BS01's Mata Nui's Reawakening Page (which right now is really just Teridax's Plan) states: "Teridax realized he could widen the scope of his ambition to taking control of the entire universe, by replacing Mata Nui's spirit." In Makuta's Guide it reads: "I sought only to disable Mata Nui and show the Matoran who they should truly be worshipping." This is quite telling as it shows that Teridax never thought of actually slipping into Mata Nui's body.

What's the context of this? I think we know he planned the robot takeover after the intel from Mutran, so this would seem to be referring to his original musings and early plans after the Barraki war and prior to that intel. But you seem to be taking it as happening post-2004. If you're right, I've been waaay off on my understanding of the timing. :P And that wouldn't seem to make sense. He knew from TK the workings of the giant robot, so just shutting it down would be deadly; someone would need to take it over. Surely it didn't take him that many thousands of years to figure that part out...

 

 

In fact, we don't know for sure when he actually realized that Mata Nui was a gigantic robot.

Yes we do; it was when TK gave Mutran that mindflash (driving him insane) about all those secrets and Mutran told Teridax, shortly before his meeting where he replaced Miserix as ruler of the Brotherhood, about 79,100 years before story-present. See here.

 

 

 

Hm... I see now on the Teridax page where the basic idea you're saying is confirmed. Odd, this seems to contradict. Here's the quote:

 

 

Before he could recuperate, the remaining Toa Metru united with Vakama and combined their powers to form a Toa Seal surrounding Teridax. These setbacks caused Teridax to widen the scope of his ambition, beyond putting the Great Spirit into comatose and ruling Metru Nui. Under his new plan, Teridax would replace Mata Nui as ruler of the universe.

If that's what Greg says, it's canon, but it's hard to see why it would take Mr. Mastermind almost 80,000 years to think of this. He had personal experience with the fact that just a little disruption of operation in the Matoran Civil War had ill effects; the Great Disruption page says:

 

 

The side effects of his illness began to be seen all over the Matoran Universe

Doesn't say what they were, but I'd think Terry would realize someone would -have- to takeover, lest the whole thing collapse. And he had intricate knowledge of why things would break down and how so. Of course, maybe that TK knowledge told him that it wouldn't be bad for a long time and he would have planned an exodus. Plus it all lasted a full 1000 years after the GC rather than just 400 as in the GD, so couldn't have been that bad. Still, odd. Thoughts?


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#17 Offline northmarch

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Posted Jan 22 2013 - 02:58 AM

It occurs to me that Terry would have gotten control of the MU even if he hadn't put Mata Nui to sleep, a thousand years sooner even. And he wouldn't have met any resistance.
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#18 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Jan 22 2013 - 01:37 PM

It seems a little hard to believe that if Teridax's plan in 2004 succeeded, the Inika would've saved Mata Nui.

It's hard to believe Terry could ever takeover either, or that the Inika ever would have saved Mata Nui. Or, once those two things happened, that Mata Nui would still make things right, but those things happened. Keep in mind Terry is Mr. Plans Within Plans. He would find a way to ensure that whatever was necessary would happen, and there isn't just one way for those things to all happen. Parts of what happened in the actual Core Dimension were not necessary to his plan. However, it's also possible he never really intended to use the Vahi and it was just another planned "defeat." The reason I doubt this is that we got his POV in Time Trap and he seemed to genuinely want it. Therefore, apparently he must have had a plan in place for its use plus the rest of what was needed. :)  As for the Barraki, I basically think (to add on to the general principle) that it was a case of naivete. Mata Nui had not yet imagined that his creations could go awry, maybe not even have freewill, so he just assigned them to their job and assume it would go as he ordered. With hindsight he would likely put them through some kind of character tests, possibly even getting to know them personally somehow (I'm talking full hindsight here), so he'd know he was putting good peoples in power. But he had no way of knowing he needed to test for that beforehand.    

BS01's Mata Nui's Reawakening Page (which right now is really just Teridax's Plan) states: "Teridax realized he could widen the scope of his ambition to taking control of the entire universe, by replacing Mata Nui's spirit." In Makuta's Guide it reads: "I sought only to disable Mata Nui and show the Matoran who they should truly be worshipping." This is quite telling as it shows that Teridax never thought of actually slipping into Mata Nui's body.

What's the context of this? I think we know he planned the robot takeover after the intel from Mutran, so this would seem to be referring to his original musings and early plans after the Barraki war and prior to that intel. But you seem to be taking it as happening post-2004. If you're right, I've been waaay off on my understanding of the timing. :P And that wouldn't seem to make sense. He knew from TK the workings of the giant robot, so just shutting it down would be deadly; someone would need to take it over. Surely it didn't take him that many thousands of years to figure that part out...  
In fact, we don't know for sure when he actually realized that Mata Nui was a gigantic robot.
Yes we do; it was when TK gave Mutran that mindflash (driving him insane) about all those secrets and Mutran told Teridax, shortly before his meeting where he replaced Miserix as ruler of the Brotherhood, about 79,100 years before story-present. See here.   Hm... I see now on the Teridax page where the basic idea you're saying is confirmed. Odd, this seems to contradict. Here's the quote:  
Before he could recuperate, the remaining Toa Metru united with Vakama and combined their powers to form a Toa Seal surrounding Teridax. These setbacks caused Teridax to widen the scope of his ambition, beyond putting the Great Spirit into comatose and ruling Metru Nui. Under his new plan, Teridax would replace Mata Nui as ruler of the universe.
If that's what Greg says, it's canon, but it's hard to see why it would take Mr. Mastermind almost 80,000 years to think of this. He had personal experience with the fact that just a little disruption of operation in the Matoran Civil War had ill effects; the Great Disruption page says:  
The side effects of his illness began to be seen all over the Matoran Universe
Doesn't say what they were, but I'd think Terry would realize someone would -have- to takeover, lest the whole thing collapse. And he had intricate knowledge of why things would break down and how so. Of course, maybe that TK knowledge told him that it wouldn't be bad for a long time and he would have planned an exodus. Plus it all lasted a full 1000 years after the GC rather than just 400 as in the GD, so couldn't have been that bad. Still, odd. Thoughts?     

 

 

Well, my idea is that Mr Terry, the great thinker he is, was too focussed on reaching his goal of putting Mata Nui asleep to think of what would happen later (The same thing happened later, which resulted in his death). Reaching that goal he had time to think what he would do next and the years in prison he formed his first toughts on taking over the Universe. Later in his free time in the Mangaie he planned the plan makuta-worthy 

 

In "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet", Tuyet says she may take out the Brotherhood, even though the Brotherhood hadn't betrayed them yet and at the time Teridax was helping to defend Metru Nui against the Dark Hunters.

Foggy mem, but I presume you're talking about her final "muahahahaha--*fail*" speech. She'd been outed as evil, and the murderer of several Matoran, just prior to that speech. So we wouldn't expect her statements from then on to come from good motives that would be shared by the people of Metru Nui. She is their enemy, and as far as they know, the Brotherhood is their ally, therefore it's perfectly natural that she'd also be the Brotherhood's enemy.And if she wants to go evil, knowing there are such superpowerful good guys helping protect the people, naturally she would be focused on them and not make a move until she found a way to become powerful enough to overthrow or at least defend herself against even them.    

 

In Dark Mirror, the alt universe where Tuyet wins, she persecutes the Makuta. The Makuta are hiding in the Archives. So, you're right, she treated the BoM just like other villains and non-compliant Toa.

But still she remains Tuyet, and Tuyet is just crazy and is not considered a normal Toa


Edited by Dual Matrix, Jan 22 2013 - 01:42 PM.

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#19 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 22 2013 - 03:36 PM

Well, my idea is that Mr Terry, the great thinker he is, was too focussed on reaching his goal of putting Mata Nui asleep to think of what would happen later (The same thing happened later, which resulted in his death). Reaching that goal he had time to think what he would do next and the years in prison he formed his first toughts on taking over the Universe. Later in his free time in the Mangaie he planned the plan makuta-worthy

That seems reasonable. So, maybe he was just so used to conventional conquering, as he was skilled at it, that while he was free he spent all his time working hard on it, experimenting, manipulating, etc. -- and when he was protocaged, he was forced to stop being actively engaged in that process, and that opened up a unique time for him to think beyond conventional armies and powers and conquering. Alright, I can see that.


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#20 Guest_Takua the Chronicler7_*

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Posted Jan 23 2013 - 04:33 PM

I forgot where but the Makuta(especially Teridax), said they were jealous of MN getting all the glory/praise/etc and they get nothing. So after creating all those Rahi, the Matoran apparently didn't care so the Makuta wanted attention by overthrowing MN.
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#21 Offline Lord Nektann

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Posted Jan 23 2013 - 10:39 PM

Well, my idea is that Mr Terry, the great thinker he is, was too focussed on reaching his goal of putting Mata Nui asleep to think of what would happen later (The same thing happened later, which resulted in his death). Reaching that goal he had time to think what he would do next and the years in prison he formed his first toughts on taking over the Universe. Later in his free time in the Mangaie he planned the plan makuta-worthy

That seems reasonable. So, maybe he was just so used to conventional conquering, as he was skilled at it, that while he was free he spent all his time working hard on it, experimenting, manipulating, etc. -- and when he was protocaged, he was forced to stop being actively engaged in that process, and that opened up a unique time for him to think beyond conventional armies and powers and conquering. Alright, I can see that.
The sticking point is we don't know exactly what Mutran learned from Tren Krom. Here's what the Mutran Chronicles says: "For I understood now... I knew how the universe worked, and as much as my mind could stand, why the universe worked. And I knew one thing more that Makuta Teridaxs mad dreams of overthrowing the Great Spirit Mata Nui were not just fantasies. It was possible. It could work. The knowledge I held was the ammunition for the weapon Teridax would one day wield, a weapon that would win us a universe." Now, this would indicate that they knew Mata Nui was a robot. But they may not have known that Mata Nui was a spirit IN a robot. The difference is, if the robot wasn't run by a spirit, then you can't take control over it and replace it with your own. Now, also important is this: the Makuta's evolution to Antidermis was AFTER Teridax revealed the Plan. By that point, Teridax already had the Metru Nui plan formulating. Now he still may not have known that Mata Nui would die or that he now was a spirit like Mata Nui. He might have realized this, and found the Core Processor, as Dume. Then he could have realized that he could BE the universe, and noticed Mata Nui start to die, and anticipate that Toa would come after the Ignika. Now during the 999 years he spent on Mata Nui, he could've left as Antidermis and maybe visited areas need for the Plan. No one would really know as the Rahi were preoccupying them. A further wrinkle was Zaktan discovering the Plan 250 Years before the Mata written in a fortress that was the Brotherhoods. Even if Teridax didn't write it personally, he must have told the other Makuta around 500 years ago. Now, he could easily have mentally told Antroz who was basically in charge while he was toying with Matoran. So Teridax couldn't have had the finalized Plan at the start, but around LoMN and the Dark Time he came up with it.   

Phew just read the giant block of lettres from Bonesii. Actually we have a perfect test subject (Alternate Terry) who stated:   

"Yes, I never noticed your entry, I must admit. But did you really think a pale and weak version of myself could stop me now?""Weak? Stronger, I say, for I resisted the temptations you could not."

Which we can take as explanation the "Absolute Power" corrupted the Makuta(At least Mr Terry) because in the Melding White Teridax didn't get a chance to take over the Universe.
Interesting take. But wouldn't that rob his statement of its meaning? He would not actually be stronger for having resisted the same temptation. He'd merely be the same, but lucky in that he didn't have to face that temptation. The fact that he does see himself as stronger seems to counter that argument. Also, even in the Melding, he probably could have come up with some kind of scheme to conquer the known world if he'd fallen to that temptation. And IMO Teridax Core went evil long before the idea of the takeover had occured to him (after the Barraki), so he fell to temptation before he realized he would have such a chance (or so I think).
An interesting thought is that (to my understanding) Teridax's destiny was to take over the Mata Nui robot while Mata Nui got in robot two (which was never made) and then reform Spherus Magna, which he fulfilled on both accounts. Now we don't know what destiny does to personality. It's possible a side-effect left Teridax naturally ambitious. Now as the Barraki tried to take Metru Nui and failed, Teridax could have gotten taken over by ambition. (An interesting note is Teridax's original Metru Nui plan, conquer the city, was basically a really more developed of the Barraki's) So possibly Teridax could have been programmed to be ambitious.EDIT: Last second thought, Teridax could have planned to use the Vahi to speed up Mata Nui's death. Then exploit the destiny of some Toa to then save him. All along the Vahi would have served to eliminate the millennia of toying with Matoran. This would match him saying: "Now it will take a lifetime to achieve what destiny demands!" Quite possibly, the takeover could have been then and there.

Edited by Lord Nektann, Jan 24 2013 - 12:28 AM.

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