I'm not offended, I just think it's a silly mindset. He's basically saying that you should conform to someone else's standards as a courtesy so they shouldn't have to conform to your own (or, y'know, just deal with it and realize that people have the freedom to be themselves and it's no one else's place to make them change), and that's silly.

The point here is to dress how you want regardless of how people may or may not be offended.

And yes, everything is a two-way street:

You should let them do the same. It's equal, it's fine. You each dress how you want and leave eachother alone.

Bwargh. Guys. Seriously. I wrote a blog entry about clothing, and it turns into a huuuuge discussion D=

I mean, I think I've already made my point clear, but there's something I'd like to point out:

everybody has their own opinion, and that's fine, too!

*sigh*

Probably my point of view is a tad too liberal, anyway. It often is. But you see, there are several way to look at this topic.

Of course I sometimes feel offended by what people wear. Nobody forces me to like what others wear, what they say, how they style their hair, whatever.

I do not have to look at them, though. I can simply look away and mind my own business.

If I don't like bleached hair, then I won't bleach mine. And that's it. I can't expect others to conform to my standards.

It's just the same the other way round.

Some people might see it all different, though. There's no need to fight about it. And if it goes on like that, I'll simply lock this entry and post Sims 2 snapshots again. =/

(in other words, let's all be nice and friendly to each other, okay? )

So. And now for replies.

Takia Nuvia. I apologize if anything I have said in the course of this has offended you.

 

Orino Ryuujin. Have fun out there being offended that someone is offended. It doesn't help.

 

Currently, no one is winning in this, and everyone is losing. I'm going to bed.

Not offended, but I was already asleep when you posted. Hence the lack of responses from my side. (Time zone galore!) =P

[...] If you make someone uncomfortable, don't rub it in their face, try and help give them some perspective on the subject. Both parties (might) walk away better off instead of perpetuating misconceptions.

I kinda feel like quoting this again because it sounds like the best explanation on that matter so far.

Or, remember that conversation is a two way street. You want people to be considerate of you. Why shouldn't you be considerate of them? Quid pro quo. Golden Rule. Mutual back-scratching. Whatever you want to call it. You're asking for societal charity when it comes to how you dress, should you not also be charitable towards society? Both parties must bring understanding to the table, not just the one that doesn't agree with you.

So if people aren't considerate of me from the beginning, I'm allowed to dress however I want? =D

Because sadly that's what it has always been like.

And I fear that it sadly isn't all that easy.

Let's take someone who enjoys school a lot, for example. Someone who always has top marks, and even *gasp* gets along well with teachers.

This person often is the subject of ridicule from the others - but does that mean he or she should do less, simply considering that others might feel offended by them having better marks?

Same game, different players.

So, you're saying, for example, that I should maybe not wear my Megadeth shirt in public because someone might see it and think I'm a satanist or part of a cult, and be uncomfortable around me, for liking a metal band?

 

'Cause that's what it sounds like. And sorry, but if someone's uncomfortable or imposes misconceptions on me based on a band/image they know nothing about, or the colour of my shirt, then I don't want to make them happy or comfortable.

It happens that way, anyway. ><

No. You need to be considerate if your clothing does offend other people. >=(

 

If I wore whatever I wanted, and someone was offended or uncomfortable with my clothes and how I looked, that means I should expect them to completely change their ways and fit with how "I" think I should be portrayed?

 

That's what's basically been said in the above comments?

 

Yeah. Let me forget about the other guy, cause what I wear is completely comfortable to me, and he needs to change his ways because I'm right and who cares if they get the wrong idea because I believe it portrays me fine.

But he or she can simply choose to ignore me if I offend them. That's the most sensible approach IMO.

I am not expecting others to tolerate me. And if someone already makes bad assumptions about me based on how I dress, then I probably don't want more contact with them, anyway. Because honestly, I don't just look different, sometimes even my opinion varies from the norm.

And the last part, even if you meant it sarcastically, is true in a way. For me, at least.

The point here is to dress how you want regardless of how people may or may not be offended.

 

And yes, everything is a two-way street:

 

You should let them do the same. It's equal, it's fine. You each dress how you want and leave eachother alone.

You summed it up perfectly, thanks.

Yeah. Let me forget about the other guy, cause what I wear is completely comfortable to me, and he needs to change his ways because I'm right and who cares if they get the wrong idea because I believe it portrays me fine.

Yes. You said it sarcastically, but yes, this is exactly right. It is up to you to react to others. It is not, nor ever has been, up to somebody else to satisfy your desires in how they portray themselves. It is up to men to react to women dressed provocatively, not up to women to dress otherwise to satisfy male urges. You control, your reactions. You don't get to say "this bothers me, so somebody else shouldn't wear it". You get to say "I don't like that, so I won't look, or I won't engage in conversation with them, or I won't act on this." That is how this works. You are responsible for your actions and your responses. A woman is not required to dress "modestly" to satisfy your desires (and the reverse is also applicable, women are not required to dress "scandalously" in order to satisfy male gaze either). Dress how you want and how you would like things to be. Respond to others with kindness and charity. Let them do the same.

I'd like to be able to go outside wearing what I want without being derided about it.

Forgive me if I misunderstand, DV, but your entire last post seems to say "I can wear anything I want because the world is centered around me" in short, no consideration for others. Face it, immodest clothing does tempt people to degrade women. It's a natural human instinct. Your points on an idealistic level may be true, but when you take into account flawed human nature, they fall apart.

In short, according to your posts, it would seem that you view consideration of others to be of no importance, in short unrestrained selfishness.

Again, forgive me if I mistake, but that is what your posts seem to scream.

honestly though, who is being more selfish:

the one who refuses to conform to the standards of another, or the one who thinks they should conform in the first place?

the one who holds their freedom over the opinion of another, or the one who holds their opinion over the freedom of another?

who actually loses something in all of this?

the attitude of "the way you look offends me, so you should change to meet my approval" is far, far more self-centered than the attitude of "I will be who I am regardless of how others may want me to be".

But what we are arguing isn't that you have to conform to other's wishes! Just that you should take others into consideration! Even if your way of considering them is making sure that -you- know why -you- dress the way -you- do and are prepared to be understanding of -their- ignorance. You can't just center the world around your wants and desires on either side of this argument. You aren't the only person in the world. Taking the views of other people into consideration isn't just bending over backward to accommodate them, it is being ready to bring careful, kind "arguments" to the table so that both sides can come away with a bit more vision. To the guy who said something about the shirt supporting the metal band. Go for it! You like that music? Great. Now explain to me why. Help me understand you. We are going to make these presumptions. We need to take another step and challenge our own presumptions, and be ready to help others past theirs.

the one who holds their freedom over the opinion of another, or the one who holds their opinion over the freedom of another?

 

who actually loses something in all of this?

 

the attitude of "the way you look offends me, so you should change to meet my approval" is far, far more self-centered than the attitude of "I will be who I am regardless of how others may want me to be".

The debate seems to have gone to the realm of modest/immodest dress. And there it's less peoples opinions and more bitter facts about humanity. Immodest dress, especially among woman provide many temptations against chastity. It's regular facts about humanity, not related to opinion. The question is whether or not to wear clothing that inspire temptations and suchlike in other people. Again, it's not because people have various beliefs about modest dress that immodest dress bothers them, but rather because their own nature likes to betray them on such desires.

For the record, I have no problem with people wearing black, or pink, or any color. Nor do I mind most designs, although sexual and satanic designs will make me a little edgy. Or a lot edgy. My problem is specifically with immodest dress. Namely, dress that inspires lust in others. This varies, culture to culture.

and so it's the woman's responsibility to dress according to how a man would respond and not the man's responsibility to have more self-control?

Always having to be considerate of other people about how you dress is very suffocating.

I know that from experience.

Zo'Tomana, you have a good point, and I agree with you. You should be ready to help others understand you if they are offended or they misunderstand. That is very different though from what some posts here are saying, that you should only dress in a socially acceptable manner because someone somewhere who you don't know is upset by it.

I completely agree that you need to be understanding with these people, that you need to have the ability to explain to them and to wipe away these natural misconceptions we all have; but not that you should dress to avoid this. To simply try to please others (when you don't even know what offends them in the first place - what if they're uncomfortable around the social norm?) who have no impact on your personal life is a form of self-abuse. It's no different, mentally, than throwing out your lego because a bully at school told you too.

That's what "society" is; a bully. "If you don't do what we want, then we will hate you." How is that right in any way? But yes, if they are willing to listen to your explanations and reasoning instead of condemning you at first glance, then by all means work things out.

Be good to eachother, people.

Quote

 

the one who holds their freedom over the opinion of another, or the one who holds their opinion over the freedom of another?

 

who actually loses something in all of this?

 

the attitude of "the way you look offends me, so you should change to meet my approval" is far, far more self-centered than the attitude of "I will be who I am regardless of how others may want me to be".

 

The debate seems to have gone to the realm of modest/immodest dress. And there it's less peoples opinions and more bitter facts about humanity. Immodest dress, especially among woman provide many temptations against chastity. It's regular facts about humanity, not related to opinion. The question is whether or not to wear clothing that inspire temptations and suchlike in other people. Again, it's not because people have various beliefs about modest dress that immodest dress bothers them, but rather because their own nature likes to betray them on such desires.

 

For the record, I have no problem with people wearing black, or pink, or any color. Nor do I mind most designs, although sexual and satanic designs will make me a little edgy. Or a lot edgy. My problem is specifically with immodest dress. Namely, dress that inspires lust in others. This varies, culture to culture.

And it is your responsibility not to act on that desire or lust. It is not someone else's responsibility to worry about your libido. You are veering very close to the "they were asking for it" argument, and I will not stand for that. It is wrong, it is immoral, and I will. Not. Have. It. Not here or anywhere else.

It is up to you to respond appropriately. It is not up to somebody else to dress the way you want them to so you can control your own urges. Self-control is your concern.

And this is the end of this conversation, as I can just feel the political and religious objections brewing and I'm going to end this before it gets there.