Torchflare1234

"AYE" to Article 8b. No reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 123a. Again, no reason to oppose.

"UNDECIDED" on Article 153. I don't feel as though "white noise" should be the limit to the mask's sonic power.

"AYE" to Article 154. No reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 155. The Kraata power of infection in a mask. Brilliant.

"AYE" to Article 156. Kind of like what Teridax did to the Toa Hagah, right?

"AYE" to Article 157. I may have to find some way to use this one.

"AYE" on Article 158. The power would certainly add a new twist to things.

"AYE" to Article 159. My spidey senes are tingling!

"AYE" to Article 160. No reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 161. Again, no reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 162. Once again, no reason to oppose.

"AYE, Option B" to Article 162. It simply sounds better.

"AYE" to Article 5d.

"AYE" to Article 100a. He has remained active and should have his suspension removed.

"AYE" to Article 140a. With no mention of an interdimensional war, I see no reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 144. Welcome to the C.I.R.C.L.E.!

"AYE" to Article 145. I'm sure you both will be a great addition to our group.

"AYE" to Article 146. I see no reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 147. One might say that Nix truly did die in the fight against the Zyglak, only to be replaced by a shell filled with hatred.

"AYE" to Article 148. You are correct, Zahaku. Ethanum is very much like alcohol. Its name is actually based off of drinking alcohol's scientific name: Ethanol.

"UNDECIDED" on Article 149. While I see no reason to oppose the Article, I see no reason to support it either, other than as an alternative way to give powers to beings who lack the mental disipline to use Kanohi.

"AYE" to Article 150. A good explanation to how Matoran can craft masks without purifying liquid protodermis.

"AYE" to Article 151. I was wanting a means of communication that is better and faster than trained Rahi.

"AYE" to Article 152. How else are De-Matoran going to interact with others?

I'm quite certain bonesiii has been open to name suggestions instead of "Vulture" for a long time. If you could find a better word that suited your tastes and accurately summarized the mask power, I'm sure bones would be happy to consider it.

I, myself, didn't like the name "Vulture" for the same reason. The problem is; in order to find a better word, you have to change the way the power works. So, unless the power gets rethought, the name remains "Vulture."

To reply to Kahinuva:

The Matoran name for mask is Kanohi. The Matoran name for the power of shielding is Hau. Kanohi Hau=Matoran name. Mask of Shielding=English name. The Matoran name for the Mask of Vulture would be whatever the BIONICLE equivilent for a vulture is.

There is no argument here, you're just misunderstanding the naming system for powers. Vulture is the closest and simplest English word that describes what the mask does and so when we refer to it by its English name, we call it a Mask of Vulture. If we refered to it by the Matoran name, we would call it the Kanohi [insert Matoran word for vulture]. Does that make sense?

To reply to bonesiii:

Again, that's my point. Really, if you could do it, you'd go for both. But what we've got now is basically, the Avsa allows you to go for the more common, but harder to get oil that's deep underground (an intelligence is already posessing the energy of the living beings). But now the Mask of Vulture allows you to tap big, easier surface pools of oil, but admittedly ones that are rarer than the underground ones (gathering energy from dying beings that is escaping already on its own, but that nobody was capturing and using previously, and that no other mind is trying to hold onto because the person is dead).

I didn’t realize a target’s willpower played a part in whether or not the Avsa’s power worked. I thought once the user chose to drain a target of energy, the target’s only options would be to give up and submit to the mask power or find someway to shut it off. Regardless of which option the target chose, the mask would still drain as long as it was active. That’s the way I see all masks powers as working, as long as the mask is active, so is the power.

I’m not against the concept of the Mask of Vulture, stealing from dead things sounds exactly like what vultures do, but where’s the advantage to using it if the only energy you can absorb is from dead things? The Avsa is still far more useful, unless you’re walking through a battlefield after the battle is over, but even then the Vulture would only be useful if the user didn’t expend more energy than he or she gained.

And of course, there is a moral issue, but that's already explained. Toa wouldn't use this, but villains and OoMN would -- and so might other questionable mask users.

To be honest, a mask is just a mask, it has no morals. (Well, the Ignika does, but that’s only after it gained a body and learned about morals by hanging around other beings.) The morality of a mask is based on who wears it.

So, compare that with the Avsa. You don't have to kill with that one to get energy. Correct. But you also don't get the energy of beings who have already died recently -- it just escapes the body on its own and is useless to you.

Then use to the Avsa to drain them before you kill them, or just drain them completely and kill them that way. The energy can’t escape if it is not there.

Or we could say the Vulture drains energy from the user’s environment and converts it into life energy for the user to absorb. That way it does both.

Also, whether you kill them or not, it's easier to get energy from someone who isn't stopping you (due to being dead) than a living target that resists you.

Normally, the only type of powers that can be resisted are mental powers. Physical powers like the Avsa or the Felnas can’t be resisted by the target, but the mental based powers like those of the Komau could.

On the types of energy that escapes, I don’t see how the Elemental Energy of a Toa would escape after he or she died, since we’ve never heard of a Toa of Fire spontaneously combusting after death or a Toa of Gravity becoming a miniature black hole. On a related note, any Toa Power the Toa didn’t give up before dying would most likely stay in the body, if the amount of concentration the Toa Metru had to use to give up a fraction of their power was any clue.

But the con is, if you lose the mask while underwater too deep, you can't breathe.

I thought every Kanohi worked this way, if you don’t have the mask to give you the power, then you don’t have the power. If you don’t have the mask to keep you adapted, then you can’t stay adapted.

Actually, a question worth asking is, can this mask make you amphibious? Breathing both water and air? I'm not sure. Perhaps if the mask sensed you need to go in and out of the water a lot, it might do that. Or perhaps for your mission if it's important you BOTH stay breathing water for a while, AND be able to come out and breathe air to finish the mission, maybe the mask might let you breathe both.

Technically, yes. But making you amphibious would only be good in a swamp/shallows environment. How it adapts you would depend on your environment, remember?

The real question to ask is this; could this work like Reidak’s power? Never be beaten twice the same way? The Kraata description would imply this, but I’m not sure.

If so, it would be another benefit from the Kaukau -- you would permanently be amphibious in this case.

Then what point would it be to have the Kaukau, the Kadin, or the Miru if the Mask of Adaptation can to the same thing they can?

By "come back", I hope you mean, body was animated by the mask power. But good question. Would Undeath hold in the body's energies until its own energy ran out?

Probably not. Otherwise it would seem more like preventing death rather than animating a dead body. Maybe to a certain extent so it didn't start decayig though...

Ooh… preventing death? Sounds like the beginning of a good story to me. Of course, now I want to know if there’s someway a reanimated body via Undeath could switch with the Avsa or the Vulture to absorb life energy to remain animated.

Well, now here's another idea I was thinking about with my last reply to you but forgot to mention.

What if we compromised and said "if you lost the mask, you would stay in form for a certain amount of time, then change back to your default form"?

It would be adding complexity though. And how long?

I would NOT be okay with just making it a totally temporary mutation though; it takes away the unique benefit of using this mask as opposed to Kaukau for the most common issue of needing to breathe water.

Perhaps, your body immediately, but slowly reverts to its original form after the mask is removed. (i.e. fin or flippers become less pronounced, water breathing becomes harder, etc… as the power wears off.) That I would approve of. And you?

On the other hand, what if you needed to breathe poisonous gas to get near a vent of it, to seal the vent -- and lost the mask on the way? As soon as you sealed the vent, you'd start dying if you NEEDED to breathe the poisonous gas to survive now. Buuuuut this gets complex too. You'd have to time when you shut the vent off with when you would change back or you'd suffocate before the timed unmutation kicked in.

It wouldn’t be complex at all. If you couldn’t get to fresh air before the gas became toxic to you, you’d die. Quite simple really, but not great for a story.

(Well, if you count things like pacemakers as "surgical tools" I suppose you could make the argument, but it would be a pretty weak argument, heh. The scalpel, etc. -- if they get destroyed later, it's irrelevant to the physical changes they made. Those changes remain.)

But who did the changing; the surgeons who used the tools or the tools themselves? I would hope the “changes” made by the surgical tools wouldn’t be permanent, you could lose a lot of blood that way.

They will if they think it's getting same old same old.

Only if the same old same old is costing them more than they’re getting in return.

If you read carefully, you'll see that's actually what I'm saying. I do not want to stick to ANY tradition just for tradition's sake. This is a major moral of mine. I don't want any change merely BECAUSE change is tradition, but because I think a change is warranted at this time.

Then we are of kindred spirits, you and I.

Example, to the charge somebody brought up that so many of these powers are evil powers, and that's a change (and to some, apparently thus bad). I didn't ask Greg to approve a change to how many evil powers we know because change is a tradition. I asked for it because I felt we had not delved into this corner of Bionicle enough yet. But I WILL have no qualms about citing the tradition as backup.

As I said above, the morality of mask powers depends on who views it. I see no reason why a power shouldn’t be a Kanohi power just because someone thinks it’s immoral. It’s still a power.

True, we don't normally use mutation to mean that in real life, but then remember that mutation means something different in Bionicle -- it refers to the changing of an already living being. Similar to some comic book uses of the word. And the physical changes in the brain are natural; transformation isn't, so mutation also implies that it's a power, which it is.

Like Roodaka’s Mutation spinner? Or how the Hordika venom mutates targets to become more bestial?

They both still modify vision in some way.

True, but not the same way, which is what has people confused.

Alright, what about this? Say, you're next to a structure you are touching to age. How you get out of the way before it falls on you? But this could be solved also by perhaps saying it only works in VERY limited range, not actually touch only... ?

You have two major options; touch the part that’s falling and rapidly age it before it could harm you, or do the obvious thing and not stand where it’s going to fall.

Matoran can build robots, but not Matoran

Careful; we don't know (and won't know) how new Matoran are made. We do know Matoran can rebuild Matoran, especially their mechanical parts. As far as I know, Greg hasn't denied that Matoran build other Matoran, has he? If he did, he'd be partly answering the question, which isn't supposed to be answered.

*facepalm* I was wrong, Matoran can build new Matoran. It says they can, right there in the BIONICLE Atlas, they just couldn’t be built on Mata Nui.

Depends on the power (and the reader). Kaukau didn't cite its limit; it was implied only that it could only go to a certain depth, but we didn't know that for sure until we got the bio of the Kaukau Nuva, which said it could go to deeper depths than the Mata.

And yet someone in one of the EM topics in S&T just said they never knew about that limitation to Kaukau. Maybe it would have been better to directly state it.

Until the Kanohi Nuva came out, the Great Kaukau didn’t need a limitation. The only limitation it had was the user’s body. If the user dove too deep to the point where the pressure made breathing difficult then the user would eventually suffocate. Looking at the Kaukau page on BS01, I’ve never been a fan of the “for-a-limited-time” limitation. I had always believed the power duration was dependant upon the user’s control and concentration.

Well, IMO, the imagination is better honed when we are aware of limitations, and thus are free to imagine ways around them.

Agreed.

The analogy I made recently is to LEGO bricks and Bionicle pieces. When you MOC, you have real limitations you must deal with. You must use your imagination to work around the limitations, just as much as to come up with the original idea. You must adapt your ideas as you build. This provides a powerful imagination skill that otherwise you are robbed, if nobody has the spine to tell you the bad sides of things.

That is only if one accepts the limitations. Many people hated the arm spines of the Piraka and, instead of working around or with them, the people simply cut them off. If they ran out of a certain type of piece, they would get more. If the piece didn’t exist in a color they wanted, then they would paint the piece. People naturally hate boundaries and will actively work to remove them. When you MOC, the only real limitation is you.

If I am too macaroni-spined to say "the mask can't do this," for fear of people not wanting to know what they can't do, then they have no idea what to do with the power. Sure, they can imagine their own version of it -- but they can do that anyways! Fan interpretations and fanfics are your sandbox. But when I define the limitations, it gives you a better mental challenge, and encourages you to exercise your brain.

Or it confuses the reader like the character stats did/do. When people saw that Nocturn had a strength level of 16 and Hydraxon had a strength level of 13, they couldn’t understand how Hydraxon beat Nocturn.

Well, I agree -- that's a limitation. Directly stated. I dunno why the debate needs continue beyond that. As far as what "godmod" is, I'm just telling you what people say; I didn't invent the term.

Lol . I agree, but we don’t need to specifically state what the mask can’t do. Let the people work to understand them, make it learning process. The only reason people got/get confused with the powers of the Miru and the Kadin is because they couldn’t understand that Lewa combined his air power with the levitation power of the Miru to achieve flight. Same with the Akaku, the Akaku’s power only lets Kopaka see through things, its built-in scope is what gave him the ability to see farther.

Hmm... I did it again. I just convinced myself that my own argument was false. You’re right to keep the limitations, but we shouldn’t put limits in fear of “overpowering” the mask. That was my beef with the “slightly” in the Mask of Aging’s initial description (which, I notice, is gone now ).

Lemme throw your argument back at you though, with Adaptation. In the definition, it is made clear, without explaining every reason for it, both that -- and why -- it causes permanent physical changes. And yet, somehow, you "weren't smart enough" to figure out why that makes sense. You had to ask. But if you would have on your own worked to understand the pros and cons of the mask affecting permanent physical change, compared to the pros and cons of the Kaukau for example, then I wouldn't have needed to directly say it.

Well, technically, you were trying to introduce a new idea. At the time, I hadn’t realized that, but now I do. And while it makes sense logically, it’s still not an idea I’m fond of.

Well, I'm with ya man, but people still don't like it usually. They hear "the power makes you invulnerable", and since it doesn't say there's a weakness, they take it literally. They take the definition's word for it, yanno?

That just means they took from it what they wanted to take from it, instead of actually understanding the definition. I’m probably just being cynical though.

(I like the Rahkshi power of limited invulnerability; basically a short timed invincibility along the lines of the Mario Cart yellow star upgrade, and turned it into a Paracosmos mask power too.)

I’m glad to know I’m not alone.

gain, because it's an untapped power source. That's like asking "If you can get oil from a pocket that's buried deep underground with expensive drills, why bother taking it from that big bubbly pool right next to us with cheaper tools?"

If you were an oil company, which would you choose first; The oil that’s going to cost you more time and money to get, or the oil that’s lying right at your feet?

And, the Avsa already does that:

Then that makes the Mask of Vulture useless as well, cause then you wouldn’t have to kill someone to take their energy.

what I'm driving at is, if you "ruined" the armor somehow, would it magically snap back into a standard form, or remain in the damaged version of whatever shape it last shifted to? Dunno.

Once the mask was removed or destroyed, the armor would probably shapeshift back into the user’s standard form, but the damage would still be there. Just like the Makuta’s armor.

Regardless, this doesn't work for the Adaptation mask, because it doesn't completely cover the wearer -- only the face. For it to work it must mutate the user.

If that’s what you prefer. My biggest problem is that you say the user is permanently mutated, until changed back by the mask, but I don’t see why it has to work that way. Why not just say the mask is always on at a low level to keep the user adapted?

Other than that, and the fact that the set includes adaptive masks, tools, and wepaons, the article doesn't say. This last quote refers to "when in its default config", confirming there is one, but it doesn't actually say it would snap back to its default when destroyed.

Could adaptive armor even be destroyed? Or would it adapt to the attack to prevent destruction?

I don't understand the relevance of your reply here to the part you quoted. I talked about staying true to the core concept of Bionicle of innovation, and in this case by introducing metaphor, not about fanfic writers or S&T geeks... Perhaps you copypasted the wrong part?

No, I was just pressed for time and was not able to clarify myself properly. Don’t get me wrong, I love the concept of innovation. I embrace it, but how much do we here on BZP really know about innovation or what is different? Different is relative to what it’s being compared to. All the mask powers you’ve described, to me, sound like a lot of the various mask powers created by other members in their attempts to be different. That makes them similar to me.

I prefer a concept few people here seem to be able to grasp; balance. An equilibrium. Compromising. Changing while staying the same. Now that’s really being different. That’s BIONICLE.

And I fail to see how metaphor isn't simple. "Vulture" clearly conveys the meaning; everybody knows what vultures do.

Since vultures eat dead things, how about this; The Mask of Death Eating. (I know, I know, Harry Potter and whatnot) Wait, no, there’s a word for that; Necrophagy. Like Aanchir suggested.

As far as the S&T geeks point, again, not sure why you brought it up about that, but like I said, they're the only types who are likely to even see these masks, so moot point.

True, but if you're going to be different, why go half way? I like throwing the metaphorical monkey wrench into the works. Take them out of their comfort zones. Give ‘em something that makes them run for cover. Upsets the estabished order.

I can, actually, see an argument that Toa energy might not escape. Given that it is able to remain in Toa stones, for example. Elemental energy, I see no reason why it wouldn't, though. Its nature is very flowing, much more so than life energy even. It's used and recharged, just like life energy, and can be absorbed from things around you, again, just like life energy.

So, if a Toa wore the Mask of Undeath, died, and came back via the mask power, the body wouldn’t have any EE?

That was the Rahkshi name. Mutate and adapt are basically synonyms, though.

Again, I don’t see why the mask has to permanently mutate the user in order to adapt. I’d be fine with this mask power if its effect wasn’t permanent.

But that isn't what this is doing -- it's not bestowing powers at all. It's changing physical structure.

All Kanohi masks grant the user powers when worn. That’s why they’re Masks of Power.

Now, now. Always on at low power is a new thing that was never "standard" originally. If that's fair game to be standard even thought it was a change, then so is this. But again, actually there are several masks, like Corruption, that work this way -- they cause a change in something, and then they need not be on, any longer.

Change is good. Change because it’s easier than working with what you got is bad. The Mask of Adaptation, as a “standard” Kanohi, would be an always-on-at-low-power mask with temporary effects on the user. I’m not sure why you don’t like it this way.

I say the same thing probably applies here. You accept the newer "always on at a low level" exception as okay for standard. Yet, it was brand new at a time. Heck, the originals themselves were new at a time. You've simply gotten used to that. So, give this a few years, have an open mind to it as you did with alwayzonlolevels, and you'll probably realize this is fine.

I accepted the always-on-at-low-power, because it made since to me. We don’t need to think about breathing or keeping our hearts beating, though we have limited control over it. Why should the mask power be any different?

(Or, you could embrace the innovation tradition of Bionicle, cut to the chase, and allow yourself to enjoy it now. You'll be a happier person for it, and it will improve all aspects of your life, not just Bionicle. That's the Bionicle challenge, and I am more than willing to be the champion of it!)

Why change what works? I mean, we’ve been getting the Inika/Piraka type builds for canister sets since 2006. LEGO is not going to change that because “change is tradition.” They’re going to change when it is beneficial to them. I’m the same way, I’ll accept change when it benefits me.

So, I'm afraid Bionicle is never going to work for those who want strict adherence to past traditions as their main objective, because Bionicle itself is defined as innovation.

Again, change is good. Change only happens when there is something to gain from it. What benefit would we gain from accepting this type of change?

Synonyms. You're parsing words. It's named that after the Rahkshi/Kraata power.

Not really. My eyes can adjust to see better in the dark, does that mean my eyes mutated? No, my eyes adapted.

This is permanent changing of physical structure, specifically to adapt to situations around you, which the mask power senses.

But why does it have to be permanent?

My eyes can't do that. Yours?

Only if I had an Akaku.

Granted; but that's the example we're going to use, because it's an official one. Amaru isn't official. But maybe the milk cup example should be used too.

The Akaku is still a bad example and any argument someone had about it and the Mask of SA having overlapping powers would be moot.

Yes, but have you read Time Trap? He aged them to an incredible extent and just kept it a-comin. Read the part about the Rahkshi army, especially. I felt that that was not justifiable according to the traditions we have seen of the limits of a Great mask. I stand by that.

I reread Time Trap not too long ago, actually. He never even had to touch them, which is what I thought would be a good limitation. Can you imagine Voporak having to touch each and every Rahkshi that had attacked him? They might have actually stood a chance.

Well, it's a nice idea, but I'd rather ranged attacks, like the structure example, be possible. Maybe we could actually do both though, while I'm talking Either/Or fallacy. Maybe ranged attack is more limited, and touch can be as much as Vopy?

Whatthink?

You mean, the closer to the user, the faster it ages? Nah, we wouldn’t want to make it too easy for the user. What’s life without a couple of challenges?

Because the mechanical parts are more complex (with the ones that are too complex to control) than in a biomechanical being.

Matoran can build robots, but not Matoran, and you say robots are the more complex? Besides, complex is like different; relative to what it’s compared to. Most Matoran wouldn’t know about robotic brains, but a Nynrah Ghost, having designed and built several robots, would have no problem understanding the internal clockworks.

Um, T, the whole point is that EVERY mask in Bionicle needs built-in limitations. Show me the godmod mask in Bionicle, with no limits or downsides at all. Pull out your 2001 comic with the mask powers insert. What do you see? Limitations. That is the tradition I came to know and love, and that's the tradition Bionicle fans as a whole know.

It’s actually funny, cause I never got the 2001 comics. We just don’t need to put limitations in plain sight like we think the reader is somehow inept.

All Great masks, by definition, have the limitation of the level of power that a Great power level allows. Noble masks have even stricter limitations. Surely this is not lost on you?

Yes, but we don’t need to say, “It does [insert power here], but not as much as [insert name here] can.” Especially for Great masks. Great masks were supposed to be the,”This is as powerful as it’s going to get.”

It’s the kind of limitation that’s typically done by BZPers to “sophisticate” a mask power. The mask powers should be clear at what they can do, the “can’t” should be left to the imagination. No one likes being told what they can’t do.

Because otherwise you've got a bunch of godmod masks, and besides, that's the rule in Bionicle. People don't tend to like powers that have no possible weakness -- it kinda ruins suspense and stuff.

My statement was actually aimed more towards your “biased audience” than at the mask power itself.

A godmod mask is not a perfectly good mask. You just assumed it was. A good mask is like the Hau, it can defend against any physical attack the user is aware of. That makes the user vulnerable to mental and surprise attacks without having to tell us that. It means you have to work to understand its pro and cons.

If you are one of the rare individuals who isn't like this, more power to you. I actually love godmod powers myself. But I, personally, like limited powers even better, and I know full well I've got a biased audience against those sorts of powers. If I'm suggesting powers to actually be canonized, I cannot impose my very rare like for godmod powers on that, and of course Greg would not accept it anyways, so why would I?

What would you define as being a “godmod” power? Invulnerability; being virtually impervious to any physical attack? Which, to anyone with imagination, would realize the user would still be vulnerable to mental assaults. The closest mask power that even comes close to “godmod” is the Mask of Conjuring, which, thankfully, Greg toned down with “must include a weakness. “

Again, that would be fine as a mask power (and as long as it clarified that it couldn't control biomechanical beings against their will, it would be the perfect partner to this mask). It's just not what this one is about. This one is about capturing the very-Bionicle theme of "biomechanics" in a mask power.

Oh, okay, still not as cool though.

So, life energy, heat, and any other energies (like elemental, Toa, etc.) are captured. They normally just fade and aren't use for anything, but this mask captures them. A power source that is not usually tapped. (And converts them into life energy for the user.)

If the purpose of the mask power is to drain life energy, why from the dead? Because it fits the Vultraz/Vulture theme?

Again, they are whatever word choice is best for the power (hopefully ... I mean, what I judged best at the time, anyways, and what Greg and/or story team judged best in all cases). As I've shown, Vulture is the most concise (other than Carrion), the most evocative, fits with the shape, Vultraz, etc. etc.

Carrion sounds way cooler than Vulture.

What do you say about Kindred, Fate, etc.? But again, you're just appealing to past patterns. I have clearly shown that the only real pattern in past mask naming schemes is that there is no clear pattern. And again, going into new territory is a core concept of Bionicle.

But then, you're just appealing to the patterns of S&T buffs and fanfic writers by creating a deeper meaning to something simple. Besides, a vulture is a creature, Kindred and Fate are not.

If they're Toa, they have Toa energy. And usually elemental energy. Assuming they haven't exhausted the EE before dying (which is possible in battle), that would be among them.

Those examples would be if it's a Toa. If it's something else, might be different, or just the basic life energy that everything shares.

Life energy I could understand, but who said that Toa Energy or EE leaves when a Toa dies?

Yep -- and nice idea -- very Bionicle. Teamwork and a variety of transformation explanations, and such. You may have intended that as an example of why you don't like it, but it hits me the opposite way, since it's true to Bionicle.

Why call this a Mask of Adaptation when it mutates the wearer? The name is inconsistent with the power. Call it a Mask of Mutation or rethink how the power works.

Well, I don't think it could give you Pakari-esque strength or enable you to literally be invisible. For that you'd need a mask of Conjuring (specifying weaknesses, of course). I've never heard that the Rahkshi power could do that.

You misunderstood. If all Kanohi worked the way you want the Mask of Adaptation to work, if Vakama became invisible using his Huna, then removed it, he would stay invisible until he put the Huna back on. Standard Kanohi powers work in two ways; always on at low power, or consciously controlled by the wearer.

Well, maybe you prefer that, but no such rule actually exists in Bionicle. And again, you must be misunderstanding what the mask is doing -- it is mutating you. Mutations usually don't snap back like that. It's like carving a statue -- if the tools used to carve it are destroyed, does the statue magically snap back to its uncarved form? No, of course not.

If the mask mutates the user, then it's not a Mask of Adaptation. It's a Mask of Mutation. You've been giving the mask power the improper name. That is what had me confused.

Greg approved this, remember. (And he approved the original Rahkshi power, inventing it himself as far as I know.) And there are many transformations that work this way, in fact most do. There are some mask powers Greg thought of on his own that break various traditions of how masks usually work, such as masks that are always on at a low level, etc.

Greg approved the Mask of Adaptation, allowing the user to adapt to situations. You said the mask adapts through mutation, but mutate is not synonymous with adapt.

X-Ray Vision is quite a lot better than normal vision, even twenty-twenty. Good point though, that the visor is an addon. Or addin, whatnot.

No, the Akaku's power lets you see through things. That's it. This is not a difficult concept. It does not enhance vision the same way a Mask of Sensory Aptitude would.

It's not because of the Akaku per se. That's just the best example I could think of, and again, Akaku improves vision more than "aptitude" would allow, so that just makes the example really... apt.

Would you limit the Mask of Sensory Aptitude if the Akaku didn't exist?

Well, that would be another good route, but nobody thought of it. We thought of doing this, because we needed shapes for Multiverse powers. We wanted thirty new powers for the Multiverse, and using existing powers wouldn't serve that (since we started out by saying that all official masks already exist in the EM, plus the BP ones). So, for our purposes in this case, that wouldn't have worked.

So, if someone else had thought of doing that and got approval for it first, then I'd be fine with it. But the fact remains that nobody did.

Ah... I see. The purpose of this wasn't to give the unnamed Kanohi canon powers, but to give the unnamed Kanohi fan-made powers.

Voporak was incredibly powerful. If his powers were, to his full extent, captured in a mask power, it would have to be Legendary. If we did that, we'd get complaints of it being overpowered. Remember his purpose was to hunt down arguably the most dangerous, Legendary power in existence (given it is so much easier to destroy reality with it on accident with Vahi than Ignika). He had to have very powerful abilities to have a chance at that.

No, it wouldn't. He could rapidly age anything close to him. That's the extent of his aging power. The mask power should limit it to direct contact. I don't know how someone could say that would be overpowered.

Yeah, except those don't work bouncing off of stuff. This is more what basketball players do because it involves bouncing off. And that's called rebounding.

True, but it gets the point across better.

Would they do that even if they hit? *checks* But yeah, basically. *reaches BS01 page for Exploding Boomerangs* Well, doesn't say.

Look at it this way, if they exploded, they wouldn't come back because they would no longer exist as boomerangs.

The abilities are unchanged either way, but the idea of Biomechanics is, it enhances the connection between living beings, and mechanics. Hence the bio (plus the Bionicle theme tie-in). In the case of strengthening your own mechanical functions or weakening an enemy's, the meaning is obvious. In the case of influencing robots, it is an extension of the theme; life extending its control over nonliving robots (but with a limitation of complexity).

"Biomechanical" implies that it's limited to partly mechanical beings, not fully mechanical. Which doesn't make sense to me. Why should a robot be harder to control than a living thing?

So the mask has limitations. And, the more complex something is, it makes sense it would be harder to grasp, doesn't it? At that point, you're going beyond the "biomechanical" power and going more into "The Mask of Robotics". Which is a nice power idea, but not this mask.

This is not the Mask of Conjuring. It doesn't need built-in limitations. I don't know why people insist on building limitations into perfectly good masks.

Lol. "On your side", or willing to listen anyways.

I figured this mask worked similar to the Komau. Where you could control any robot or mechanical device, as long as you can override its thought processes. I guess not.

Mask of Vulture: Drains the life energy of those near the wearer.

That isn't consistent with what Vultures do -- they feed on the dead, not the living. That power would be more like Vorahk, or like the Avsa.

So... the Mask of Vulture transforms the bodies of the deceased into life energy which can then be absorbed by the wearer? That's what vultures do. Unless, of course, you're assuming that there is a type of energy that leaves the body upon death that could be absorbed by a wearer of the Mask of Vulture.

I would prefer to call this the "Mask of Predation."

That would imply the mask power preys on the living, or directly kills them, neither of which is the case (and was suggested earlier and turned down for that reason).

Only on those poor souls foolish enough to be around the wearer for a really long time.

It is far simpler

It's a longer word, and less accurately sums up what the mask does. IMO, that makes it less simple. Besides, then you lose the meaning of the Vulture-like shape, and Vultraz's name (again).

Perhaps not simpler, but easier to understand. Mask power names are not developed based on how "poetic" the name is, they are the power summarized in one to three words. Otherwise, the Kadin could have been called the Mask of Gukko. After all, Gukko birds can fly, so a Kanohi Kadin user would be like a Gukko.

should require far less explanation than "Vulture."

The only explanation Vulture really needs is, "Lets the user absorb escaping energies of the recently dead, similar to vultures feeding on the dead." It's a very simple power.

And that brings up the questions; What type of energies? Life? Elemental? Spiritual? How do we know they escape?

This also bypasses the need to explain how the mask drains something that is not there.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Never mind that statement. See above.

Incomprehension: Encrypts written languages and turns the speech of others into incoherent babble.

Essentially right, but as said before, the word "encrypts" implies it's encoding for another person who knows the code to decode. "Scrambles" or the like is a better word choice.

Agreed.

Mask of Adaptation: Allows the user to take the maximum advantage of an environment.

That's very vague. The current definition is much clearer -- mutates the user's body to suit the environment.

Or it could work like the Toa Nuva's adaptive armor.

There should be no confusion over this one. If the mask is removed, its power goes away.

No, it's a permanent mutation; so if you take the mask away without changing back, you're stuck in that form. Which can be both good and bad. If you need to keep surviving in this place, you want this. But then, you would be stuck like that unless you got the mask back or such.

So if a team of Toa took turns using this mask, they all could theoretically mutate into water-breathers? The way you want it to work, a Huna wearer would remain invisible, a Pakari would remain super strong, etc, etc... if their masks were removed while active. Every mask will and should shut down its power when removed, the only the exception to this is the Olmak under certain conditions.

Mask of Sensory Aptitude: Enhances all five senses of the wearer.

That definition would suffice. I would still clarify the "but each is not as enhanced as, for example, the Akaku would enhance vision specifically" line. Or you could just say "slightly."

Actually, the Akaku would only give you X-Ray vision. Any sight enhancement done by it would be by built-in telescopic lenses. So, I don't see why the Mask of Sensory Aptitude should be limited because of it.

"Aptitude," while having the same basic meaning, does not accurately describe the mask power.

Uh... I don't know where you get that. If it has the same basic meaning, it accurately describes the mask power.

Never mind that. I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time.

Mask of Absorption: Allows the wearer to temporarily absorb and use any power the wearer is exposed to.

Remember that now this is being turned into Pouks' mask. So, it's more like "Allows the user to study any power they see in use, and slowly [insert a word here] it."

I understand the reasoning behind it, they both accomplish the same thing, just by different methods, but I still feel as though the methods of copying are different enough to merit individual masks.

Pouk's mask power requires him to study it before he can use it. Vezok could use the power instantly, if he survived it. Pouk's would only have to see the power in use. Greater risk= Greater gain or greater loss.

Yeah, but the benefit of fusing the two masks into one is that we know what the shape of the mask Pouks wears is. (Although his actual one would be different, but anyways. ) Plus, "Absorption" was too easily confused with "Adaptation," I felt. And Greg was fine with making them the same power, so I am.

What about the Mask of Clairvoyance? Or the Mask of Rahi Control? Why not use these for the unnamed Kanohi? Why create new powers?

Mask of Aging: Allows the wearer to rapidly age anything the wearer touches.

Unlike Voporak who only had to be near something to age it, the wearer has to be in physical contact with the target.

Well, there's already a limitation compared to Voporak -- it's not to the full power of his. It's only a Great mask. Given that, I don't think requiring touch is needed as another limitation.

For what reason would you limit it in that way? It should be to the full power of Voporak.

Rebounding: Deflects the force of an opponent's attack back at them, causing the attacker to be hit with an equal amount of force.

Rebounding is literally what it means -- rebounding your projectiles. Think basketball, guys.

You mean, think boomerangs. Specifically, Hydraxon's exploding boomerangs. If they exploded, they didn't come back. If they didn't explode, they would return to him. Only the mask requires the thrown object to bounce against something in order for it to return.

This should function in the same way Balta's Twin Repellers do.

No, then it would just be another Hau clone. This is turning the 2001 disk skill, which I always loved, into an actual power.

Ah, okay, that makes sense now. However, the Hau just protects, making it a defensive mask. Balta's Repellers, acted as both offensive and defensive tools, making it not just another Hau clone.

Mechanics: Grants the user control over mechanical objects.

Again, there was a typo there on BS01; it's "Biomechanics." But nitpicking...

No, I like mechanical. It covers a wider range of abilities.

This should function in a way similar to the Nynrah Ghost Blasters, only its effect is limited to the wearer's concentration. If the Ghost Blasters can override the mechanical components of biomechanical beings, I don't see why the mask can't control fully mechanical beings.

It can -- but only if they're simple enough. If they're too complex, i.e. with clockwork brains, that would require something more powerful than a Great Mask (or Noble) is capable of.

Why would it be able to control biomechanics but not full mechanics? Why only simple machines? And how simple is simple? Fire drones? Vahki? Exo-Toa armor?

On the other hand, if they're on your side, then technically you can do that. Because your "robotic telepathy" tells them what you want, and their loyalty makes them do it.

What makes a "friendly" robot different from an "unfriendly" robot? The mask should allow the user to control all mechanics, the only limit should be the user's knowledge of mechanics.

I do admire your wanting to think "outside the brick" for these powers, but don't allow your originality to get consumed by over-complication.

None of them are overcomplicated. They're exactly as complicated as they need to be, for each of them, same as previous powers.

But those powers came from Greg, the story team, and the set designers. LEGO employees. If fans threw a fit about a power, like the Miru/Kadin incident, oh well. These powers were made by fans. Non-LEGO employees. The easier the powers are to understand, the less questions that have to be asked, the closer to the accepted norm, the better it will be accepted among the general fan-base.

And most of the things you said aren't any more or less complicated. I could ask you detailed questions about the differences between Noble and Great, what would happen in specific situations, what about overlaps (like Hau with your Balta version of Rebounding), along the same lines as jimmybob did, and you'd end up with as much "complexity."

And I will gladly answer any questions you have about the powers I stated.

8 year olds don't want to read a three page essay on a mask power, they just want one or two sentences describing the power and be done with it.

And they can. We've provided 'em. (Or we're working on it, in the case of the current BS01 Kanohi page. ) Same as any other power. All the questions about "what about this this and this" can be (and are) asked about other official powers too. There is no difference.

 

Are you sure you know what 8-year-olds want, though? Greg's been doing this as his actual job for quite a while now. I trust his judgement on that.

I was merely refering to yours and Thormen's emmensly long posts on why Vulture is or is not a good mask power name.

Well, I came into this way too late, but I'll put my own two cents in anyway.

I personally believe mask powers should be easy to understand and judging from the walls o' text, many of these are quite, no, very confusing. Here is what I perceive these powers as being based upon their names:

Mask of Vulture: Drains the life energy of those near the wearer.

I would prefer to call this the "Mask of Predation." It is far simpler and should require far less explanation than "Vulture." This also bypasses the need to explain how the mask drains something that is not there.

Mask of Untranslation Incomprehension: Encrypts written languages and turns the speech of others into incoherent babble.

Probably best described as an anti-Rau.

Mask of Adaptation: Allows the user to take the maximum advantage of an environment.

There should be no confusion over this one. If the mask is removed, its power goes away. If Gali took off her Kaukau while underwater, and had no other way to breathe, she would eventually drown.

Mask of Sensory Aptitude: Enhances all five senses of the wearer.

I'd prefer this to be called "Sensory Enhancement." "Aptitude," while having the same basic meaning, does not accurately describe the mask power.

Mask of Absorption: Allows the wearer to temporarily absorb and use any power the wearer is exposed to.

This mask works the same way Vezok's power works; In order to use a power, he had to be exposed to it. Pouk's mask power requires him to study it before he can use it. Vezok could use the power instantly, if he survived it. Pouk's would only have to see the power in use. Greater risk= Greater gain or greater loss.

Mask of Aging: Allows the wearer to rapidly age anything the wearer touches.

Unlike Voporak who only had to be near something to age it, the wearer has to be in physical contact with the target.

Mask of Undeath: Drains minute amounts of life energy from the wearer and stores it till the wearer dies. Then, the wearer's body is infused with the energy and the body performs the last objective the wearer thought of before dying.

Zombification, anyone? This works similar to the Tryna, only the user gets reanimated.

Conjuring: Grants the wearer any feasible power desired, as long as the power has a drawback to its use. The mask is limited to one power at a time and will strike out at the wearer with a mental backlash if the power is not feasible or lacks a drawback.

Perhaps the most speculative of all the masks due to its awesome possibilities. Greg was wise to have the mask require a direct downside to the power usage.

Rebounding: Deflects the force of an opponent's attack back at them, causing the attacker to be hit with an equal amount of force.

This should function in the same way Balta's Twin Repellers do.

Mechanics: Grants the user control over mechanical objects.

This should function in a way similar to the Nynrah Ghost Blasters, only its effect is limited to the wearer's concentration. If the Ghost Blasters can override the mechanical components of biomechanical beings, I don't see why the mask can't control fully mechanical beings.

Fusion: Causes a forced fusion between the wearer and whoever or whatever the wearer is touching. The wearer must suppress the conscience of the other being or the merge will be undone.

I consider this something between a Kaita, the Spear of Fusion, and the Makuta's ability to absorb other beings.

I do admire your wanting to think "outside the brick" for these powers, but don't allow your originality to get consumed by over-complication. 8 year olds don't want to read a three page essay on a mask power, they just want one or two sentences describing the power and be done with it.

However, that's just my thoughts about it.

For those as curious as I am, check this out. And this.

Huh, some of those powers are just plain wierd. Vulture? Undeath? The Mask of Conjuring sounds powerful, but not effective in combat. The same with the Mask of Fusion. Although, the Masks of Rebound, Adaptation, Sensory Aptitude, and Absorption all seem useful.

And it looks like the Kardatoran masks became the Noble versions of their respective Toa/Makuta's masks(Tanma's became a Noble Miru, Gavla's became a Noble Avsa, etc...)

You and your community. You guys are too supportive.

You're just jealous.

So, the Vahualsi created multiple wormholes during its destruction. The wormholes have since disappeared. Simple as that.

Or it could have been lost in the timestream. Wait a moment. According to Comment #16 it WAS lost in the timestream. *facepalm* It was never destroyed and thus no cataclysmic destruction.

However, it still doesn't explain how a Turaga was able to use a Legendary Mask when Makuta have difficulty doing so. I'd like to think that it could be a sentient mask like the Ignika, it only activates when it sees fit and can transport anyone physical contact with it, without warning, at any time.

Okay, here's the deal with the Vahualsi:

 

Turaga Kulia sent the Kanohi back in time before the creation of the Matoran Universe, where it was destroyed. Since the Kanohi was destroyed outside of the MU, no repercussions were inflicted.

A Legendary Mask, no matter which universe it's in, will unleash its power when destroyed. Just say that the Vahualsi is a one-of-a-kind mask found only in Great form and be done with it. That way, there are no repercussions for its destruction.

Ooh, how good it feels to be back.

OK, Put it this way I dont really get the point in article 141 but it seems important to Lessoviks story which is why I have kept it at undecided so far.

These are my concerns/questions:

1. I highly doubt the Great Beings would give any of there knowledge out to other species, even ones they created.

2. This perfect warrior? Could you clear this up, what exactly is the perfect warrior?

3. Do the Keepers have their own motives? in the article they seem like they would just do whatever found them told them.

4. If yes to the above, why would you want to create "the perfect warrior" if it could just do whatever it wanted instead of help the finder.

 

~ Zahaku

Based on the common characteristics of stories of heroics, this Article is most likely a plot device to help the main character find his inner hero. The main character is sent on a mission to find these "Three Keepers" and as he or she journeys across the lands seeking the "Keepers", the main character will, in the end, realize that there are no true "Keys" and that the "perfect warrior" was inside him or herself all along. However, that is just my best guess.

I'm not sure if this answered your questions, but I hope it helped.

Article 130: Undecided. I'd like to make a suggestion to Kohila and if he can confirm my suggestion as true, I'll give this my approval. Since a lot of people have said nay to this on the grounds that there is no time travel in Bionicle and several more are saying nay due to the fact that its destruction had no cataclysmic effects, how about we kill two birds with one stone and say that the cataclysmic effects of its destruction are why time travel is impossible in this universe? In other words, I'm proposing that the destruction of the mask caused the universe to be locked in time, and while creating, say, a time machine, may have been possible before, now time travel has been rendered physically impossible by the effects of this mask's destruction.

The only problem with that is that would render Bitil's Mohtrek useless.

"AYE" to Article 135. No reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 136. Same.

"AYE" to Article 137. Same.

"AYE" to Article 138. Same.

"UNDECIDED" on Article 139. I would be in support of this if these are the beings of Light refered to by Brutaka in Federation of Fear.

"UNDECIDED" on Article 140. I'm not sure I like the idea of interdimensional wars.

"AYE" to Article 141. On the same basis as Ausar, what purpose would it serve to have these "Keepers?"

"AYE" to Article 142. Depending on some details, I might use this in my epic.

"AYE" to Article 143. Again, I see no reason to oppose.

So they go back in time where they rename themselves and become Turaga in an attempt to hide.

Ok, a somewhat lack-luster use of the power, and it doesn't affect the time-stream as far as I can tell, that's good. But I still don't like the idea of time travel in BIONICLE.

I hope that this clears things up for everyone and please do reconsider your votes.

If anything, that made me even more confused. I just want to know why Vrail and Vayho wanted to go back in time.

On a related note, Legendary Kanohi are also difficult to control, even for a Makuta. And here you're saying that a Turaga wielded this mask this very little problem.

For Article 130, GregF said that Time Travel wouldn't be done because of the fact that it would be a hard concept to explain to 9-year-olds, but I believe that most of our readers are people who would understand the story, especially since the Vahualsi is only ever used once.

Now, I must ask; Did the user change anything and did that have any effect on the future?

"AYE" to Article 119. I do this hesititantly because I still feel that human based tech really doesn't belong in the BIONICLE universe and that some sort of stone or crystal would be better. However, that is my personal taste. Otherwise, the Article is fine.

"AYE" to Article 127. I see no reason to oppose this.

"AYE" to Article 128. Again, no reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 129. Do we really need another Matoran subspecies? These sound like the Ga-Matoran scholars of Metru Nui.

"NAY" to Article 130. Greg said no time travel.

"AYE" to Article 131. When one considers it, the Zlinj is like a powered down Ignika. The Ignika can create and control Life, the Zlinj can only control it.

"AYE" to Article 132. No reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 133. Again, no reason to oppose.

"AYE" to Article 134. Once again, no reason to oppose.

I'd like to point out that we should remember that there were 100 Makuta BEFORE Teridax took over and that some of the larger regions, primarily the contintents, did have more than one Makuta, while one Makuta would watch over multiple smaller regions.

Also, Artidax was the southern most island that any Makuta even dared to travel to. So theorectically, any landmass below Artidax wouldn't have a Makuta.

Nay it seems way too long for a war.

Not true. A war between two factions can last for a very long time if both sides are well supplied, commanded by cunning leaders, and a hundred other things. The Brotherhood/Dark Hunter War lasted for a thousand years. I don't see why the La Nui Civil War can't last twice that.