What if Web of Shadows never happened?

[NickonAquaMagna]

The man himself, Greg Frashtey, has stated that he resents the whole Web of Shadows storyline. Apparently, the Metru Nui arc was supposed to end after one year, but after putting so much work into crafting the setting, the rest of the team wanted to stay there a while longer, to make the most of their work before moving on to a new setting... so they added this non-story that, while okay, was reeeeeally forced.

 

THAT SAID, I'd say it was still worth it for Time Trap. That book is where Bionicle, as we know it now, really took off.

 

I'm sure some of you have heard that they'd originally planned to reveal the Mata Nui robot resting beneath the island from the very beginning, possibly at the end of the first year, before realizing how much more they could add to the line and to the story. Needless to say, Bionicle has gone through a lot of changes over the years, but the drama surrounding Web of Shadows is the most interesting to me, because I feel this was a pivotal point in Bionicle's run.

 

In the early years, they got a contract for three movies. Only three. Some have wondered why they didn't make more for such a long time, but here's how I think things could've gone differently. See... I think three movies may have been all they needed.

 

I think the plan was to change things up with the first movie while introducing elements that would come into play later on. Metru Nui's story arc, if contained in that one movie, would provide backstory for a lot of things. and then, the third movie... well, without Web of Shadows in the way, there's only one place to go to, isn't there?

 

Just imagine a movie that begins in Metru Nui, with the city being rebuilt by the Matoran, and the characters from the first movie interacting with characters like Turaga Dume. Imagine hearing Scott Mcniel as Tahu again, along with the rest of that crew. Imagine seeing them take on the Piraka, or a similar villain, and being defeated, only for Jaller and the others to come save the day.

 

Granted, if given the same treatment as City of Legends, we may see big chunks of the story of the Bionicle Legends novels chopped out, but I can still imagine enough of the essentials being there.

 

One scene I would've loved to see would feature Jaller being forced to give up his Kanohi Hau and replace it with Kanohi Calix in Karzahni. Just picture him reflecting on the history of the mask, and showing how ashamed he feels to disgrace the memory of one of the greatest Toa who ever lived, only to BECOME a Toa, himself, shortly after, and resolve to live up to the name of his friends and Toa who came before him.

 

There are soooo many cool things like that they could've done to end the trilogy if only they'd been able to move on. I mean, 1st movie- Mask of Light, second movie- Mask of Time, 3rd movie- Mask of Life... kinda seeing a pattern of stories that center around some mask or other. Kinda fits, really.

 

I think, if such a movie came to be, it may have very well ended with the Mask of Life being used to revive Mata Nui. Maybe not wake him, but then again... yeah, maybe. Maybe Makuta would eventually reform from his antidermis as the movie went on, and take on the Toa one last time.

 

In the end, while I'm glad to have Time Trap, along with Roodaka,Keetongu, the Shdaowed one, the true depth of Makuta Teridax as a character, and all the material that would be expanded upon in the years following 2005, I still can't help wondering how things would've gone if that last movie had been different.

Edited December 9, 2013 by NickonAquaMagna

[Chro]

I'm pretty sure the S&T forum is for talking about stuff in the storyline itself, not theoretical Ignition movies... (although for what it's worth, I've got to agree that an Ignition movie would be freakin' awesome, I've always wanted to see that.)

Maybe try the Media forum?

[NickonAquaMagna]

I'm pretty sure the S&T forum is for talking about stuff in the storyline itself, not theoretical Ignition movies... (although for what it's worth, I've got to agree that an Ignition movie would be freakin' awesome, I've always wanted to see that.)

Maybe try the Media forum?

 

Oh, sorry. My mistake. Yeah, I guess this just isn't concrete enough to be in this forum. Is there a way for me to move this there, or do I have to delete this thread and repost it?

 

Oh great... I just realized I mispelled "if" in the title. What do I do?

Edited December 9, 2013 by NickonAquaMagna

[fishers64]

Are you asking what would happen if the entire Web of Shadows storyline was cut, or just the movie?

[NickonAquaMagna]

Are you asking what would happen if the entire Web of Shadows storyline was cut, or just the movie?

 

Its entire story, though mainly the movie. Supposedly, Greg never wanted to take Bionicle in that direction.

[fishers64]

 

Are you asking what would happen if the entire Web of Shadows storyline was cut, or just the movie?

 

Its entire story, though mainly the movie. Supposedly, Greg never wanted to take Bionicle in that direction.

 

I think his major beef was that Vakama was forced to betray the others. He didn't want that. Although if you listened to the TTV interview, he had a measure of complaints about the whole year.

 

Although I personally think that 2005 was a very essential year to the story, as it explained why Makuta was around for 2001-03, how the Toa Metru got the Matoran out, and what happened to the Mask of Time. 2004 needed 2005 story to come back around to 2001. Could it have been done better? I'm not so sure. The way the whole thing happened, in the books at least, was very epic - the books from 2005 are my personal favorites from the entire series. It was the movie that wasn't up to par. It was too dark and simple and didn't make sense.

Edited December 9, 2013 by fishers64

[Sybre]

I think that they dropped the ball on 2005 a little. It did seem a little rushed, but I like how Vakama betrayed the group. Added some spice to the story. I also liked the Visorak, but 2005 just felt like there was something missing. I can't put my finger on it. I don't know what it is, but that's just how I feel. To me, 2005 feels like a shadow of BIONICLE's overall potential and seems like a largely forgotten year. Like fishers64 said in the post above this one, it may have been better. I liked the darkness of that year, but it was too simple, I guess. I think that's what's missing, a better plot! The overall basis was okay, it just needed a better story! Think about it. 2001 features a couple plots wrapped into one. Quest for the masks, stopping the Rahi, and defeating Teridax. 2004 was heavy with little storylines within it. That's what made those years even better. Now look at 2005. Just one little plot: stopping the Visorak horde and returning to normal. When you sit on that for a minute, that sounds like a little boring. All of you are hungrier for storylines that lived up to the potential of 2001 & 2004, right? Don't you agree with me?

[NickonAquaMagna]

I think that they dropped the ball on 2005 a little. It did seem a little rushed, but I like how Vakama betrayed the group. Added some spice to the story. I also liked the Visorak, but 2005 just felt like there was something missing. I can't put my finger on it. I don't know what it is, but that's just how I feel. To me, 2005 feels like a shadow of BIONICLE's overall potential and seems like a largely forgotten year. Like fishers64 said in the post above this one, it may have been better. I liked the darkness of that year, but it was too simple, I guess. I think that's what's missing, a better plot! The overall basis was okay, it just needed a better story! Think about it. 2001 features a couple plots wrapped into one. Quest for the masks, stopping the Rahi, and defeating Teridax. 2004 was heavy with little storylines within it. That's what made those years even better. Now look at 2005. Just one little plot: stopping the Visorak horde and returning to normal. When you sit on that for a minute, that sounds like a little boring. All of you are hungrier for storylines that lived up to the potential of 2001 & 2004, right? Don't you agree with me?

 

 

Honestly... I NEVER liked seeing Vakama betray the others. Even the first time I watched it, on the day it was released, that movie just left a bad taste in my mouth, like "That would never happen."

 

I still like SOME things about the movie, but the whole Vakama thing is just.. unnatural. In Greg's recent interview with TTV, he said something very enlightening. "You can't make a character do something they don't want to do".

 

In other words, it was EXTREMELY out of character for Vakama to "turn". He's just such a pure soul that he shouldn't be any more likely to be corrupted than the rest of the group. The higher-ups MADE Greg take that direction, even though he protested against it. Up to that point, he'd written Vakama in a way that just made his later actions make no sense at all, because it wasn't something Vakama would do.

 

I think they wanted to draw in Star Wars fans because Revenge of the Sith was released that year, which also featured a protagonist turning to the.. well, you know.

 

The thing is... spicing things up doesn't make a story actually GOOD. So... sorry, but I don't agree.

[fishers64]

Did you guys read the books in 2005?

[Lyichir]

The most important thing that happened in Web of Shadows would still need to be addressed, that being Makuta's release from captivity so that he could return to threaten the Toa Mata for the 2001 story.

Otherwise, it's hard to guess how different things might have been. That's why I generally dislike "What If" topics like this—causality is too complex to figure out exactly how things would have turned out. After all, the Mask of Life story was still far from finalized at the end of 2004, so almost anything could have changed if they pushed it ahead.

[NickonAquaMagna]

Did you guys read the books in 2005?

 

I read some of them. They had some great moments, like when the Zivon was gobbling up the Visorak. It was such a huge, crazy scene to imagine playing out in a movie or game or something. It was just a really crazy time.

 

My favorite book would have to be Time Trap, though.

[Sybre]

 

I think that they dropped the ball on 2005 a little. It did seem a little rushed, but I like how Vakama betrayed the group. Added some spice to the story. I also liked the Visorak, but 2005 just felt like there was something missing. I can't put my finger on it. I don't know what it is, but that's just how I feel. To me, 2005 feels like a shadow of BIONICLE's overall potential and seems like a largely forgotten year. Like fishers64 said in the post above this one, it may have been better. I liked the darkness of that year, but it was too simple, I guess. I think that's what's missing, a better plot! The overall basis was okay, it just needed a better story! Think about it. 2001 features a couple plots wrapped into one. Quest for the masks, stopping the Rahi, and defeating Teridax. 2004 was heavy with little storylines within it. That's what made those years even better. Now look at 2005. Just one little plot: stopping the Visorak horde and returning to normal. When you sit on that for a minute, that sounds like a little boring. All of you are hungrier for storylines that lived up to the potential of 2001 & 2004, right? Don't you agree with me?

 

 

Honestly... I NEVER liked seeing Vakama betray the others. Even the first time I watched it, on the day it was released, that movie just left a bad taste in my mouth, like "That would never happen."

 

I still like SOME things about the movie, but the whole Vakama thing is just.. unnatural. In Greg's recent interview with TTV, he said something very enlightening. "You can't make a character do something they don't want to do".

 

In other words, it was EXTREMELY out of character for Vakama to "turn". He's just such a pure soul that he shouldn't be any more likely to be corrupted than the rest of the group. The higher-ups MADE Greg take that direction, even though he protested against it. Up to that point, he'd written Vakama in a way that just made his later actions make no sense at all, because it wasn't something Vakama would do.

 

I think they wanted to draw in Star Wars fans because Revenge of the Sith was released that year, which also featured a protagonist turning to the.. well, you know.

 

The thing is... spicing things up doesn't make a story actually GOOD. So... sorry, but I don't agree.

 

Okay, you show a fair point. Maybe it's because I'm not the best critic because I'm easy to impress. I guess I've seen what's wrong with my opinion. Again, really good point. Would've worked better for another character, I guess.

[Hitoshura]

Did you guys read the books in 2005?

Yes.

 

The 2005 story was ok, like I liked it but won't care if it got cut.

[Sybre]

 

Did you guys read the books in 2005?

Yes.

 

The 2005 story was ok, like I liked it but won't care if it got cut.

 

I also wouldn't care too much if it got cut, either. With a better story, however, 2005 could've been a much better year.

[bonesiii]

Are you asking what would happen if the entire Web of Shadows storyline was cut, or just the movie?

Its entire story, though mainly the movie. Supposedly, Greg never wanted to take Bionicle in that direction.

Then the topic may belong here more than in Media. That's not a final decision yet; stay tuned.

 

[Edit: B6 left it up to me. When in indecision, go with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Leaving it here, I guess. ]

 

On-topic: Something most people forget to mention is that while it's true Greg thought it should not have been Vakama who turned, he has also said that arguably WoS was a better movie overall than its two predecessors in many ways. Many of the big complaints people had about the first two movies were fixed in it -- a real battle as the climax, more setlike appearances, a dark psychological question of the inner darkness in everybody. That last one BTW makes it somewhat immaterial whether it's Vakama or someone else.

 

Also, if the plot wasn't done, I'd have to say that would make Makuta out to be a bit of a pushover and I don't like that. So he's trapped in a protocage -- the guy's telepathic and the biggest villain of the whole story. It makes sense the Brotherhood would have some kind of army, and that it would be animalistic, given his connection to Rahi, and that he could mentally reach out to them to delay the Toa rescuing the rest of the Matoran. Otherwise he would just sort of sit there while they moved everybody in peace.

 

Plus, then how does he get out?

 

So, if you're going to cut WoS, I think you at least have to make LoMN a significantly different movie. I just don't think it really works. WoS was a good place to end the movies (if you're going to; it was forced by sales). That's not to say that it was perfect, though.

 

Honestly... I NEVER liked seeing Vakama betray the others. Even the first time I watched it, on the day it was released, that movie just left a bad taste in my mouth, like "That would never happen."

 

I still like SOME things about the movie, but the whole Vakama thing is just.. unnatural. In Greg's recent interview with TTV, he said something very enlightening. "You can't make a character do something they don't want to do".

 

In other words, it was EXTREMELY out of character for Vakama to "turn". He's just such a pure soul that he shouldn't be any more likely to be corrupted than the rest of the group.

I know Greg's opinion on it, but personally, I think Greg has satisfactorily salvaged this in the books by making it clear it was part of his response to his causing Lhikan's death. That is a dark thing to have to experience. Also, the whole theme of the year is to combat this idea that any good guy is "pure." Everybody has a darkness within, and the Hordika venom specifically brings it out.

 

Personally I think that Greg's right that the movie could have been as interesting had Matau turned instead, but I have to be honest that I feel it would brush aside the seriousness of what affected Vakama. Plus it makes sense for a mere maskmaker to have serious doubts, and all that combined darkness could tip him over the edge. I frankly think Greg forgets, when he brings this up, that the weight on Vakama's shoulders, personally, was more than on all his teammates. It does make sense that something seriously bad would happen when the venom brings that out to him before the others.

 

Another possibility though could be that he doesn't join Roodaka. But even that can be justified; he just wants to be part of a winning team. The 'dark side' of him.

 

By contrast, what do the others have to so seriously weigh them down? Matau lost his good looks? Seriously. They were a part of his same burdens, but none so personally, and he had the responsibility of leader. Plus, some of the others on his team were openly mocking toward him at first, and with low self-esteem to begin with, he might have held on to that and been reminded of it, contrasted with Roodaka who only praises him (for ulterior motives). When you're turning half-animal, who knows? That could easily happen.

 

 

The higher-ups MADE Greg take that direction, even though he protested against it. Up to that point, he'd written Vakama in a way that just made his later actions make no sense at all, because it wasn't something Vakama would do.

It can justifiably be seen as "not Vakama" doing it, but all his issues causing him to do that when he's "not himself", though I don't see it as necessary. It did seem kind of to come out of nowhere from his behavior in (most of the) Turaga portrayals, though, I'll grant you. But the leadup to it from LoMN and the things Greg did in the books to help explain it did end up working IMO. You just have to think about it a little.

 

I say "most of" because a little-known fact is that in the original GBA game, Vakama was harsh toward Takua, predicting his failure and reluctantly agreeing he succeeded but adds an insult that he was still an "amateur". It's unknown if the story team would consider this part canon, and I haven't used it in my retelling version, but could be taken as an early clue toward that direction for the character (that he's more sensitive to irresponsibility in an aspiring hero possibly leading him down a very dark path, though in-game the only implication is failure, of course).

 

In other words, neither would Lewa fight Onua or try to help the swarms keep the Le-Matoran captive... like with infected masks and Krana, the Hordika venom continued Bionicle's theme of things that take you over. It just did it in a more psychologically interesting way (which IMO should be another major bonus people should not forget), that cobbled together this other person from all your inner darkness.

 

And whether they turned or not, the year did affirm that our heroes are nothing like Mary Sues / Gary Stus.

 

 

 

All that said, Voya Nui movie for the win. But sales weren't there for it, sadly. Plus, you would have to commit to not leaving it hanging to do it right. (And they did run into that problem with TLR.) You'd kind of have to do a 2007 movie too at least.

 

 

Another point to keep in mind is that if a 2006 (or same plot but taking place in 2005) movie told parts of the story from the books, the book couldn't have told it, unless it was just a cameo. That was why the movie years made other story sources suffer; those sources couldn't spoil movie plot.

 

So, food for thought.

 

 

I think they wanted to draw in Star Wars fans because Revenge of the Sith was released that year, which also featured a protagonist turning to the.. well, you know.

Well, are you aware that Greg has also said he never liked that Darth Vader turned good again in the end? Yet it's a crucial part of SW plot. Greg seems to have a thing about turnings. You could be right about their motive for that. But you know, I've thought many times, watching the three prequel SW movies and the Clone Wars that in the real world, Anakin would never turn to the darkness in the first place. But, there's the fictional factor of the Dark Side, which actually twists you. Likewise, Bionicle had the Hordika venom.

Edited December 10, 2013 by bonesiii

[FallenCor]

Ehhhh, all the angst between the protagonists seemed a little forced, but I agree that the plot-line as a whole was necessary. How Makuta came back, how the Toa rescued the Matoran, etc. etc. ... As for "evil Vakama", a better question is: why was his ego so inflated by the start of the movie? Where did that come from? Seems more out-of-character than anything else, but that's just me. His turning to (yes I'll say it) the Dark-side seems logical when you consider the stuff he's been through, as Bonesiii said. Though, what would have made that more interesting would have been Vakama experiencing moments of inner-conflict over it. Even some Smeagol-vs-Gollum type arguments would have been hilarious interesting to watch/read. Anyhow...

Did we need that whole oh-you're-all-suddenly-temperamental-mutants-now thing? Probably not. Though quiet frankly, I think the story peeps could have better utilized that as a threat device, like in all of those zombie-apocalypse games. What keeps you running? Staying alive and uninfected. Would have made the story a lot more interesting, in my opinion, having that hanging over the Toa as they tried to reach the Matoran. Did we need to have one of the good-guys turn? Still on the fence about it, but it made things more interesting and provided a little character development. Could it have been anyone else? I really can't see it. Except for Matau and Onewa's arrogance, there was really nothing else for the venom to feed on. Vakama's insecurities were much better fuel, but I'll spare you all a psychology speech. There's also the fact that this entire plot-line helped introduce a previously-believed-to-be-dead Toa team (the Hagah), which led to some pivotal backstory later on. I can't think of any other ways the Hagah could have been introduced, but there's that. Cutting 2005 could also mean the relocation, or removal, of characters like Roodaka and Sidorak. The latter wouldn't have been much of a loss, *cough*, but we all know that today's society would sooner kill off an entire Toa team than lose a single female character. I don't believe the end of the movie would have changed; it would have simply occurred a day or two after the Toa returned to Metru Nui, but then you'd have no movie (or a fun series of books).

If people truly wanted to cut '05, I think it would have gone as thus: The Toa arrive and fetch the Matoran, then leave; Roodaka wouldn't even have to had any involvement with the Visorak to break Makuta out; the introduction of the Toa Hagah would have to be moved; and we all would have been spared more of Matau's satire...

I can't think of anything else at the moment, so I'll leave y'all to it.

[bonesiii]

As for "evil Vakama", a better question is: why was his ego so inflated by the start of the movie? Where did that come from? Seems more out-of-character than anything else, but that's just me.

I have an interpretation of that in my retelling but alas it's another thing I'd rather not spoil here. Suffice to say, more of how psychology can be devious. Real people act similarly when they're put under similar stresses, depending on the person and situation.

[BobaFett2]

The books were nice, I think.

 

The comics always disappointed me. I assumed that I just hadn't gotten all of them (even though it turns out that I did get all of them)...they didn't finish anything.

 

There was another discussion about what book you would make as a movie. Most people said Time Trap (which I have not read, sadly). I think the 2006 saga as a whole would make a good movie, even if it would leave out a lot of background.

Edited December 11, 2013 by BobaFett2