Girls' Corner

[Alex Humva]

See, that's what I've been thinking about. Society is a self fulfilling prophecy; the parents teach their children, the children grow up and teach their children, and so forth. It makes changing the status quo extremely difficult -the civil rights movement didn't happen over night after all-, so the only option is to target people when they're still young and their ideals haven't been set in stone yet.Of course then you get people who go on the news and say, 'oh noz group x is influencing our children!' Yeah, just like you do to your kids.I think that may be why Lego's marketing team doesn't market to girls; simply because society won't accept it, and in the end the money going into marketing to that demographic would be a waste. I mean, when you can't even market lincoln logs without people assuming that it's for boys, there's something wrong here, and brings up a whole flurry of double standards.

[GSR]

Came across this Lego ad from 1981:[image linked]I wonder how successful this ad campaign was back then.(Whoops, didn't think it was over 500kb. My mistake.)

Edited January 3, 2012 by GSR
Image over 500 kb.

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

Back then: Yes, probably, since the details weren't really looked into back then. All you'd see back then was a happy child holding a LEGO house.Nowadays: Maybe not. These days, there are these parents who read too deeply into things. They'd see a young girl wearing clothes that possibly hint at being inappropriate, hinting at the child actually being a boy, a house that is disorganised and thus reflective of the child's home life, a slogan that states that beauty is important and is encouraging children to appreciate beauty over important things.Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

[Alyska]

That ad has been doing the rounds of the internet for a while now. And you're right, Zippy- no one would want to see an ad with a child dressed like that any more, although it's more because she would be perceived as scruffy/daggy rather than questions about her gender. Little girls in ads these days need to be immaculately groomed, have perfect hair and teeth, and preferably be at least two to three years older than the intended age group (I remember seeing an ad for Clikits where the girls looked about sixteen). Oh, and no gingers. Ever.

[~Shockwave~]

That's a little. Umm... trying to think of the word.... I font know.... prejudiced? That's not right.Can't thimk of it.I hope my point gets across.i still find it odd that I'm allowed here. Considering the name.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Don't worry, Bumblebee, anyone and everyone is allowed to chat here (I'm a guy, by the way. I've been here since page one. XD).And I'm sure Alyska was using sarcasm... or, well, irony in that statement. ^^'GSR: Interesting links. I'm especially fond of the old advertisement, and I wish I could see more of that in today's culture... =/Maybe I should just move to the 50's and grow up from there? XD I haven't read the genderless article in the New York Times yet, but it sounds like a very interesting read. Although, I don't think that would be a very unanimous decision among the toy world. There are kids and parents out there that like the little people. I mean, what would a minifigure be if it's not a boy or a girl? I guess it could be a robot, but not everyone is into science fiction (okay, that kinda sounded like a dumb-statement, but basically: Different people are different and I'm pretty sure gender in toys isn't anything new. It's not something that won't be missed if it's abolished and a lot of people probably wouldn't like gender to be wiped off the map, not to say it's a bad idea (I'm actually interested in the potential on some level... I'll stop rambling now. XD)

[Alex Humva]

Trust me mate, you don't want to move to the fifties to escape the sexism of this era; the 50s was sexism personified, IMO. That lego ad is the first thing that has shown me otherwise.Me, I'm fine with gender centric stuff, just so long as the in-story universe doesn't portray that as being good or bad. You can have an all male or female cast; just don't make it seem like that's for the better or worse in whatever area. The problem is that gender-centric stories typically go and raise a bunch of unsettling doublestandards which cause problems.

[~Shockwave~]

Gender topics have a lot of double standards.Its okay for girls to wear boys clothing. But not vice versa.Girls can read any book they like, but us guys can'tGirls can like any color. Boys can't.Boys can't hit girls. But its okay if you reverse it.I'm not trying to start anything, but this annoys me.And yet our society is trying to "except everyone"I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Alex Humva]

Offend people with that list? Psh. Those are commonly known facets of society. If someone took offense to that, they'd be the ones at fault, not you mate. But yeah, we already crossed that bridge in this topic, so it's kinda old news.As a side not, it's accept, not except. I make that mistake a lot too though so it's understandable.

[Alyska]

Yeah, I was being sarcastic/ironic with the gingers thing- sorry if I failed to get that across or offended anyone. I was just trying to point out why the ad wouldn't be published today, and you don't see a lot of redheaded kids in advertising for that reason. Actually, if you think about it, discrimination against people based on hair colour is technically racism, except that most people don't see it like that.And bumblebee, those things on your list add up to a broader concept about gender- It's the idea that male is the default, "normal" form of humanity, while women are... something else. That's why, in our modern society, a woman is allowed to do virtually anything a man can do, but there are certain, "womanly" behaviours/traits that are considered off-limits to men. (The example I like to use is the brony-hater brigade. It's okay for me as a female to like Bionicle, but apparently it's not okay for blokes to like a show aimed at young girls) It ends up being offensive to both sexes when you think about it.

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

You can make points of inequal genders on both sides. Statistically, women are paid less at work than men. Men are more likely to be involved in a car crash. Stuff like that is found everywere. The fact is, people of both genders are bound to have differences. I heard somewhere that males are more likely to be able to picture how something's gong to look like, while females aremore likely to have a more literal mind. It's when people are treated differently for these differences that makes me annoyed.That sad, it's kind of annoying when people get overly protesting on either side. I heard some time ago that someone was complaining that the Thomas the Tank Engine franchise was sexist since there was only one female train. They're trains; they don't have genders in the first place! Besides, you don't even notice in the first place since everyone's voiced by the voiceover guy! Argharghargh...People will complain about anything these days.

[Alyska]

I found another great Cuusoo project this morning, which uses customised Friends minidolls. Definitely worth a look, regardless of what your opinion on the dolls is.

[Toa Novu]

Trouble is, even the prefixes have to go through the Legal department now......But we're getting off-topic.I think they could have still presented Orde as "a mistake" somehow without making him male. What about an aggressive, out-of-control female Toa of Psionics who was far more powerful than normal? In response to her behaviour, future models would have reduced power levels or something, and the Toa would have spent some time in hiding from the Great Beings who wanted to deactivate her.Then again, if that was the case, we would miss out on the "Great Beings are sexist" explanation...Actually, now I'm wondering just how much the Great beings studied their creations' behaviour. I mean, they knew enough about Orde to tell that he was behaving aggressively, but they still seemed to think that female Toa are always gentle... even though the first Toa they created was Helryx. Maybe Helryx started out passive and gentle, but her personality changed dramatically over time?

Nah, that could actually work into the "The Great Being are sexist" theory pretty well. Perhaps they created her, saw how much trouble she was, and mis-attributed her behavior to her gender? This could create a subconscious bias in which they would want to create male rather than female beings at any point after this first experience. Edited January 8, 2012 by Toa Novu

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

I found another great Cuusoo project this morning, which uses customised Friends minidolls. Definitely worth a look, regardless of what your opinion on the dolls is.

I saw those, and you know, I could see those being buyable. They are pretty awesome.Toa Novu, that is a great concept, except the Great Beings also had genders. But maybe they attributed themselves higher than mortal beings, and then thought that all mortal females and males were as you described?

[Toa Novu]

Hm. What was the balance of male to female within the great beings? Was it similar to what we see in the matoran universe, or more equal?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Toa Novu

[Alyska]

No idea. There being female GBs was only alluded to once (a Great Being making an offhand remark about his "brothers and sisters"), and every time someone asks Greg if female GBs exist, they get a "Sorry, can't answer that."So, all we know is that they probably exist, and that their existence is considered a spoiler by Greg (Either for story reasons, or because he's not allowed to reveal much about them).I really don't see how a species having female members is a spoiler...

[Alex Humva]

Maybe the Great Beings are like the Ents, and the majority of females of their species are dead/missing/somewhere else? That'd be a pretty big plot point.

[Toa Novu]

Perhaps the gender split is the same for them, then? I.e., about 5:1 in favor of males? This would make sense, since it would me that they simply based on the gender variance of their creations on themselves.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Toa Novu

[~Shockwave~]

I'm just spitballing here, but I think it would be 50/50.Or at least around there

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

We have no way of knowing this yet. I think it'd be about equal, maybe with a few less women but not much. Hopefully we'll know more when further story chapters come out.And I'd like to know how the Great Beings being female as well is a plot point, too.Wait, got it. Angonce is totally female.

Edited January 10, 2012 by ZippyWharrgarbl

[Toa Novu]

Or maybe the spoiler is that the gender divergence is reversed. That would be mean that for the great beings, it's 1:5 in women's favor.

[BioGio]

Building off of Humva's point, it could also be a significant spoiler if the Great Beings were all "neuter" (for want of a better word). Heck, it could be used (say, if the GB's were not naturally "neuter," and their desire to create came out of a pon farr-style drive to mate/create new life.)Still, Greg isn't allowed to reveal more than snippets of information on the GB's, so it's possible that he just didn't have permission to tell us that specifically and wanted to play it safe.Also, I thought that Angonce was male.~ BioGio

[Alyska]

Maybe the Great Beings are like the Ents, and the majority of females of their species are dead/missing/somewhere else? That'd be a pretty big plot point.

Because a society in which females just live alongside the males and do the same sort of stuff as them just isn't possible in Bionicle.

[Toa Novu]

Maybe the Great Beings are like the Ents, and the majority of females of their species are dead/missing/somewhere else? That'd be a pretty big plot point.

Because a society in which females just live alongside the males and do the same sort of stuff as them just isn't possible in Bionicle.

Because girls are GROSS according to the target audience. Being in the periphery demographic really does stink in this fandom. Ah well.

[Alex Humva]

Yeah, that's about as much of a stereotype as any other; I have yet to meet a seven year old kid who thinks that way about girls. Granted I don't meet that many anyways, but still.Besides, the Great Beings never appeared as sets or such; so Greg would of had full control over what their story was.

[Toa Novu]

Yeah, that's about as much of a stereotype as any other; I have yet to meet a seven year old kid who thinks that way about girls. Granted I don't meet that many anyways, but still.Besides, the Great Beings never appeared as sets or such; so Greg would of had full control over what their story was.

Sorry, I forget that sarcasm doesn't carry well over the internet. You're right, it's a stereotype like any other. What I was trying to point out is that it is one that LEGO heavily follows in their marketing and products in general. Most little kids I know don't care what the gender of their playmate is. Heck, I know plenty of little boys and girls who will combine all of their toys and make a massive multiplayer crossover of epicness using barbies, LEGO, trucks, Polly pockets, army men, doll houses, and whatever else they might have on hand.As for Greg's control, he doesn't quite have as much as we give him credit for. There will always be people over his head going, "No no, this would better," or "Don't forget to do this."

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

Also, I thought that Angonce was male.

He is. As Toa Novu said, sarcasm travels horribly over the internet. :POn the Great Being debate, I heard somewhere that GregF was going to put a hand- a single hand- of a Great Being in one of the Bara Magna comics, but apparently someone didn't want any hint of the Great Beings' actual appearance in there. I just thought I'd throw that out there.In any story such as the one we have for Bionicle, there is never a lot of control for the author. The company involved will want the story to follow their guidelines and characters. Also, with what I said above, there seems to be a certain line that cannot be crossed when it comes to Great Beings. Assumably, they don't want anything resembling a god or group of gods. Edited January 31, 2012 by ZippyWharrgarbl