Girls' Corner

[Just A Dot]

You know, the Great Beings being biased would be an excellent story base... something to explore their motives and why they've come to think this way, as well as the effect it has on their creations.I definitely have to do a story on that now.

I kind of like this idea, of the Great Beings being sexist. It explains why the gender ratio in the Matoran Universe is so unbalanced, and would allow us to get a little deeper into their characters. This would also explain why it is that the MU people even have genders in the first place.Someone mentioned at one point how it was always the female characters who do the awesome stuff. That is kind of sexist too. To even out the story, we need some female characters to be weaker. But, as Alyska pointed out, that would probably be attacked by fans.BIONICLE has just worked itself into a dark corner with the whole gender thing. It would probably have been better off if the genders were mixed instead of tied to the elements, or if the Matoran Universe characters just didn't have genders.And what is this I hear about a typo determining that Toa of the Green are male? I don't recall them ever even appearing in the story anywhere!

[Alex Humva]

Yeah, robots shouldn't have genders. But alas, a combination of marketing and English makes it near impossible to pull off. Thus, I will have to make a Bionicle fan fic entirely in Latin, so that I can have them be genderless. Though then you might argue that while they're robots and have no biological concept of gender they do have the mental gender programmed into them, but this raises a whole new can of worms; why separate programming to tell the genders apart? Even in humans, from my understanding of the topic, without estrogen or testosterone the differences between male and female brain functions are trivial, men having a slightly higher tolerance to stress while women having slightly better comprehension abilities. Without biological factors a programed mental gender makes absolutely no sense, unless the Great Beings truly are that sexist, but they're an extremely advanced people; why would they be like this?...Screw my space story, I've got to start working on this Great Being short story immediately. I'm seeing the plot synopsis now; a group of Great Beings responsible for the programming of gender is put on trial, and various experiments conducted to see if their case is indeed correct.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Cartographer Alex Humva

[Peach 00]

Yeah, robots shouldn't have genders. But alas, a combination of marketing and English makes it near impossible to pull off. Thus, I will have to make a Bionicle fan fic entirely in Latin, so that I can have them be genderless. Though then you might argue that while they're robots and have no biological concept of gender they do have the mental gender programmed into them, but this raises a whole new can of worms; why separate programming to tell the genders apart? Even in humans, from my understanding of the topic, without estrogen or testosterone the differences between male and female brain functions are trivial, men having a slightly higher tolerance to stress while women having slightly better comprehension abilities. Without biological factors a programed mental gender makes absolutely no sense, unless the Great Beings truly are that sexist, but they're an extremely advanced people; why would they be like this?...Screw my space story, I've got to start working on this Great Being short story immediately. I'm seeing the plot synopsis now; a group of Great Beings responsible for the programming of gender is put on trial, and various experiments conducted to see if their case is indeed correct.

Well, as a technicality, they're actually biomechanical beings, which means they're a mixture of a robot's mechanics and an organic mixture. An example of a biomechanical being would be General Grevious (I have no clue how to spell the name) from Star Wars. However, I'd consider that the Toa and Matoran are just a little more organic than a character like that. Them being biomechanical allows them to have a gender, however they can't reproduce because they are mechanical.So, that's why the GBs had to be the creators - basically the fathers and mothers of everything created, which was a similar role that Mata-Nui played in the storyline. Makuta, however, despite given that ability, hated his children. :PAnd the GBs have always been sexist. Which, as Beninator said, is the reason for the enormous unbalanced gender ratio in the story. But, female characters have to be made awesome, despite the sexist view in that. It makes them the stronger characters, revealing them as capable beings who can look out for themselves.But, the reason for the elements: It sounds like Greek mythology. All the gods and goddesses were portrayed in different elements, and although it isn't necessarily the same exact concept, the goddess or god is the gender of each element. Not exactly the best analogy, but it's a good example. But, all the elements shouldn't have had a specific element for each one, because as it was stated earlier, it closes room for so much story building and creativity. For the story it would be great to have gender neutral elements, but for marketing, it wouldn't be all that great.So, I'll just say basically a smaller sentiment of what I said earlier: They need more male characters to outweigh that of the girls so they get sales from boys, which is the reason more female characters wouldn't be good. The same reason why they never put another female character on the teams released as sets: Marketing, sales, and money - it always leads back to that. Edited November 28, 2011 by Peach 00

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Trivia: I once asked Greg what the story reasoning might be to have genders in the Matoran Universe (I noted that I understood why both genders existed outside of it). His response was that the Great Beings likely modeled their creations off of something that had these genders present (aka the Glatorian and Agori). You create what you know.So, say I build a robot with sentience. Why not give it a gender? It would make the robot a bit more familiar and I could relate with it more (especially if I'm giving the robot a personality). Also, Bionicle is not the first franchise to give robots a gender. Rosie from the Jetsons pretty much proves that point. Also, Wall-E and Eve to name a recent story (Robot love... They say it's the most honest love there is! XP).So, I don't really see much argument on gender with robots. Especially seeing as they're technically biomechanical, and not true robots made only of metal and wiring (Edit: Peachy, you ninja, you... XD). I think gender in Bionicle was a good thing. I don't think I would have related to Lewa or Tahu as much as a child if I knew they were just robots. It takes away a personal element and I probably would have been thinking "They're not really a person... They're just a pile of bolts and screws." Which I probably would disagree with now as I've followed their characters, but gender just seems like something that separates an actual person from a robot tool. =/ I'd prefer if Lewa had his own conscious (as he is awesome). Think about it from a child's perspective; it really does make a difference in the tone of the story (not to say I would have preferred one gender over another... Lewa could have been a girl and I'd have been perfectly fine with it as a kid).Also, I'm pretty sure there's a difference between gender and the actual physical difference between a man and woman. I believe gender is technically how the two tend to act separately of the other on a general scale. It's probably more of a Psychology aspect than a Biology aspect.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Tekulo: Toa of Wind

[Alex Humva]

Trivia: I once asked Greg what the story reasoning might be to have genders in the Matoran Universe (I noted that I understood why both genders existed outside of it). His response was that the Great Beings likely modeled their creations off of something that had these genders present (aka the Glatorian and Agori). You create what you know.

That does make some sense, though while it might explain the appearance and biological part, it doesn't really help the mental gender part.

So, say I build a robot with sentience. Why not give it a gender? It would make the robot a bit more familiar and I could relate with it more (especially if I'm giving the robot a personality). Also, Bionicle is not the first franchise to give robots a gender. Rosie from the Jetsons pretty much proves that point. Also, Wall-E and Eve to name a recent story (Robot love... They say it's the most honest love there is! XP).

Speaking as an inspiring mechanical engineer and robotist, I can say a few things on that; indeed, a humanoid robot designed to interact with humans would probably need some sort of gender programmed in. But this raises a can of worm; what do you program into it? Do you program a fembot with stereotypical motherly traits or a malebot with aggressive tendencies? Once you boil off stereotypes and society what are you left with? In my opinion, and it's only my opinion so don't take it as me forcing it on anyone, a sentient robot with no mental gender programmed in would be, once again, in my opinion, a more perfect creation than ourselves because of this. Sentient robots would gain their knowledge and sentience through interacting with the world and learning; without gender there are no expectations pushed onto them, no expectation to fight or care, no expectation to rumor or gossip. Without society pushing the whims on the robot, it could actually gain a personality without any gender, and still be able to interact with ease to the world. The only problem would be, naturally, English and it's gender specific pronouns.

So, I don't really see much argument on gender with robots. Especially seeing as they're technically biomechanical, and not true robots made only of metal and wiring (Edit: Peachy, you ninja, you... XD). I think gender in Bionicle was a good thing. I don't think I would have related to Lewa or Tahu as much as a child if I knew they were just robots. It takes away a personal element and I probably would have been thinking "They're not really a person... They're just a pile of bolts and screws." Which I probably would disagree with now as I've followed their characters, but gender just seems like something that separates an actual person from a robot tool. =/ I'd prefer if Lewa had his own conscious (as he is awesome). Think about it from a child's perspective; it really does make a difference in the tone of the story (not to say I would have preferred one gender over another... Lewa could have been a girl and I'd have been perfectly fine with it as a kid).

Admittedly the biomechanical part does bring questions up, and I must concede to you on the marketing front. As a child, yes, you can't really get attached to something if you think of it as a bucket of bolts. Well, I could, but that's just how my mind works; by far not the general populace's slant. Gender does give a personal aspect, and as much as I may despise it, it's just how society works. I fight to minimize the broad generalizations put on us by society, but at the end of the day, it's just how society works. So I must concede to you on the point of marketing and somewhat story.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a difference between gender and the actual physical difference between a man and woman. I believe gender is technically how the two tend to act separately of the other on a general scale. It's probably more of a Psychology aspect than a Biology aspect.

There are a couple different definitions; you have to define whether or not you're talking about cultural/societal differences or biological differences. From what I know all but a small amount of the behavior differences between the genders is because of society, not biological or anything to do with brain functions, but as I said, male and female brains are structured slightly differently and thus that influences it some. But for the vast majority of it it's society and culture.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Hmm... good points. It would most likely depend on what the robot is created for. Rosie, for example, is made to be a caretaker/maid. Seeing as there are children in the house, a motherly psyche seemed to suit her just fine. Of course, then you get into the meat and potatoes of how much you want the robot to interact, what issues a regular person may feel (like stress) and how that may be reduced. Of course, this is if gender is needed. If I build a sentient robot to, say, build a lego set or cook a meal, then gender really doesn't have much to do about the task. Now, when the robot is wielding elemental powers that have a danger to them? It might be best to consider different psyches (also the psyches would in turn relate to the element and how powerful it is). Orde's backstory would probably be the best look into what the Great Beings were thinking on this front, and they likely asked similar questions themselves when programming toa (as they created matoran first, probably to test these personalities out without risk of being burned to a crisp or suffocated, etc). That and matoran were made to work on building the robot body of Mata Nui. Based on what Orde's story implies, the "male" psyche was just a default program, and the "female" psyche was developed to counter out some of the flaws of the first (as Orde kinda screwed his mission up a bit). That would mean the males and females of Bionicle are different by personality traits (and probably subtle ones at that, depending on the element). I'm not sure if Psionics were the first females or not, but they had other elements to test this new psyche out with, and I'd assume they changed the base of it for each respective element (or that's what I would do anyway).Also keep in mind the glitch. The MU residents were never meant to be sentient; they were intended to be tools. The AI was an accident as far as we know, so whatever caused it probably had an effect on the psyche as well. It's an interesting thought...And don't worry; I understand completely where you're coming from with the gender differences that society pushes. I cannot tell you how many "men are dumb" jokes I've heard (and I can take a joke, but I can't take it if the teller is being serious... =/) as well as jokes about women... I have never yet heard a joke about humans in general... (Okay, that sounds like a fun joke book. XD). But anyway, I hate seeing people get so caught up in little details like gender or color or which TV show/movie is/isn't good and get so engrossed in the argument that they forget to take two steps back and see how childish they really are about it. Amazing what wars are started on these days. O.o

[Alex Humva]

Hmm... good points. It would most likely depend on what the robot is created for. Rosie, for example, is made to be a caretaker/maid. Seeing as there are children in the house, a motherly psyche seemed to suit her just fine. Of course, then you get into the meat and potatoes of how much you want the robot to interact, what issues a regular person may feel (like stress) and how that may be reduced. Of course, this is if gender is needed. If I build a sentient robot to, say, build a lego set or cook a meal, then gender really doesn't have much to do about the task. Now, when the robot is wielding elemental powers that have a danger to them? It might be best to consider different psyches (also the psyches would in turn relate to the element and how powerful it is). Orde's backstory would probably be the best look into what the Great Beings were thinking on this front, and they likely asked similar questions themselves when programming toa (as they created matoran first, probably to test these personalities out without risk of being burned to a crisp or suffocated, etc). That and matoran were made to work on building the robot body of Mata Nui. Based on what Orde's story implies, the "male" psyche was just a default program, and the "female" psyche was developed to counter out some of the flaws of the first (as Orde kinda screwed his mission up a bit).

While I agree on the psyche part, it creates some very... harmful stereotypes if the only male Toa of psionic is deemed a failure because he's too violent and the model switches to females. It's a stereotype that harms both sides, and obviously didn't do anything thanks to the comment coming directly after it. But this is why I want to write a short story about a trial with the Great Beings responsible for this; to present the case, and see if there's any logic to it. And if there isn't viciously destroy it.

Also keep in mind the glitch. The MU residents were never meant to be sentient; they were intended to be tools. The AI was an accident as far as we know, so whatever caused it probably had an effect on the psyche as well. It's an interesting thought...

Hmmm... true. What time was this glitch btw? I can't remember and it'd play into my story.

[Peach 00]

Here's the way I look at it: The GBs for some reason created a male Toa of Psionics. Technically, this crosses the gender line. So, wait? There can be a male Toa on a female element, yet there can't be a female on a male element, such as Fire or Stone, or even Iron. This technically creates a story issue, because if there can be a male Psionics-Toa, why not a female Fire-Toa? It'd be like if you wanted french fries with ketchup but your hamburger can't have ketchup on it. So, you can't have both. Which is a flaw I find with that concept, because if they had the choice to have only one gender-different character per element, there would be a lot more female characters at least.But about Orde: Masculine characters are sometimes stereotyped as hot-headed, but that depends on the element. The Psionics element has a slightly different personality than that of the Water personality. It appears to me as more aggressive, and has a similar hot-headed attitude to that of the Fire element. Orde was placed as Psionics-Toa, so he's going to be inevitably more aggressive than a female character. It's just in the nature of the character. The main thing is that some elements were probably tested by the Great Beings, mainly the female elements, as male elements at first.The Water element is a strange element to house the male gender. It's too peaceful - guys aren't peaceful and soothing like that of gentler female spirits. Guys are headstrong, aggressive - they don't catch themselves before they fall. The Water element was better suited to females because it has many qualities that are more seen in women than in guys. The same situation fits with elements like Fire, Air, and Ice, for example. Fire and Air have, again, qualities suited more towards a certain gender. Even if gender neutral elements were cool, there would be flaws because of the qualities and type of personality you would see in certain characters, depending on the element.Ice would have been an interesting female element, even if it was better suited to guys. Women can be icy (No pun intended) and distant, sometimes thinkers. The Ko-Matoran and Ice-Toa were framed as mathematicians, scientists, and professors and the like. There aren't a huge amount of women like that, but there are still plenty, so it would have worked with either gender. I genuinely think that it would have worked with either, because the qualities in the element can be suited for either gender, to be honest.Obviously with some elements the Great Beings (Well, story writers in this case) made some good and bad choices with the gender choice on some elements. Psionics was one of the elements that probably tested the Great Beings most in their judgement - if it were a male element, it would have been too close to resembling the Fire element. Orde is an exact example of that.Also, another subject I was thinking of when about the elements: Prefixes. There are some we know about, such as Gravity (Ba-), Iron (Fe-), Sonics (De-), and the standard six. I've always wondered why they've never filled in other such prefixes, such as Plasma or Lightning, or even Magnetism. So what do you guys think? Keep them unknown and just let everybody keep on making up non-canon prefixes? Or hold official polls to get a prefixes canon for these elements? I'd like to see some polls be held. It'd be easier to call Matoran of Lightning (for example) Xa-Matoran or Ni-Matoran, which was a specific prefix somebody came up with about a month ago, based off of the first two letters in Nikila's name. The same goes for Matoran of Plasma or Matoran of Magnetism.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Well, I just called it a glitch because I know so little about it. Though, their creations were probably AI from the start, I'd assume.Also, I disagree that water would be a bad element to house a male psyche. Men aren't always hot-headed and aggressive or daredevils or distant and alone or strong speed demons... Matoro and Onua are pretty fine examples of that, I think. Apply their male character traits to the element of water. i think it would indeed fit.Dude, a hippie male toa... Totally interested in that type of character. XD Though, I don't picture The Green to be all that peaceful or eco-friendly. I imagine them to be just as ferocious as wildlife, and with little knowledge of civilized mannerisms (or little patience for such things).

Edited November 29, 2011 by Tekulo: Toa of Wind

[Alex Humva]

But about Orde: Masculine characters are sometimes stereotyped as hot-headed, but that depends on the element. The Psionics element has a slightly different personality than that of the Water personality. It appears to me as more aggressive, and has a similar hot-headed attitude to that of the Fire element. Orde was placed as Psionics-Toa, so he's going to be inevitably more aggressive than a female character. It's just in the nature of the character. The main thing is that some elements were probably tested by the Great Beings, mainly the female elements, as male elements at first.

I'm fine with element based personalities; that makes sense.

The Water element is a strange element to house the male gender. It's too peaceful - guys aren't peaceful and soothing like that of gentler female spirits. Guys are headstrong, aggressive - they don't catch themselves before they fall. The Water element was better suited to females because it has many qualities that are more seen in women than in guys. The same situation fits with elements like Fire, Air, and Ice, for example. Fire and Air have, again, qualities suited more towards a certain gender. Even if gender neutral elements were cool, there would be flaws because of the qualities and type of personality you would see in certain characters, depending on the element.

...Deep breath Alex, deep breath... no offense was meant... deep breath...This is basically what I fight in society all the time. Testosterone is a powerful thing but it doesn't mean dudes are inherently headstrong and warmongers. That is a society imposed belief; being taught since a young age is what causes it, not any biological or mental cause, barring testosterone of course. Seeing as there's a balance between estrogen and testosterone in both genders if your levels are off then it can change behavior to some extent but both are for survival and extremely rarely inhibit higher reasoning; testosterone kept early men alive in battle and estrogen helped early mothers keep their children alive. Powerful stuff, but not at all a reason to make such broad generalization as 'guys are headstrong, aggressive'. NOW, I must admit that yes, that seems to be the general idea today; I haven't met that many calm down to earth guys, but that's society working, and continuing to generalize in an age that is suppose to be about equality for all just... it just makes me cringe. Element based personalities are awesome; gender based personalities make broad assumptions and are more harmful than it's worth.

Obviously with some elements the Great Beings (Well, story writers in this case) made some good and bad choices with the gender choice on some elements. Psionics was one of the elements that probably tested the Great Beings most in their judgement - if it were a male element, it would have been too close to resembling the Fire element. Orde is an exact example of that.

Which is why I say, Orde could of worked GREAT if he was a calmer guy, reflecting his element instead of his stereotyped gender.

[Peach 00]

Same here, but I was just saying. It's in the nature of the element. Fire is hot and can grow even hotter when the flames are fueled, which is the personality of Toa of Fire. Sonics is sound - it's a quiet element, so naturally the characters will be quiet. However, Krakua is the exception of that.And I wasn't meaning to stereotype, more meaning some characters in the story. And plus, it seems like a natural male character, although some men differ from that generalization. Some are shy and quiet, some calm and can keep cool. Others can be as I said - aggressive. But it just depends on their element. And when I mean element in real life, I mean Chinese astrology-based elements, as well as their animal. It fits for Bionicle's elements, if that makes any sense. Example: Chinese astrology Tiger characters are regularly hot-tempered but can be calm sometimes. That's a similar personality to that of Tahu's.I agree, though, I didn't mean to offend, get you angry, or make an enormous stereotype. It's just a more familiar type of personality you find out of guys. Down to earth, calm, and careful guys have qualities not found often. As well, unlike the, 'don't catch themselves when they fall' type, they look before they leap and look before they take a step. They aren't as careless.Indeed. His character would have been better, but that's the GBs wrong on their part - the one reason why they changed the gender. Technically, a female of the same element wouldn't have taken his exact steps, which makes it an element better off feminine than masculine.EDIT: Also, no word about the prefixes? I seriously would like to see polls on certain prefixes that haven't been made yet, (lightning, Plasma, Magnetism). Anybody's idea of that? (Yeah, I stated that earlier)

Edited November 29, 2011 by Peach 00

[Alex Humva]

Ah, right, the prefixes. Not really sure how one could shorten, say, lightning, as it's both electricity and plasma, whereas magnetism could also generate electricity as a byproduct.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

I've always called them Li-matoran (so original, I know. XD).Though, I've never really thought of any other prefixes...

[Peach 00]

Somebody way back called them Ni-Matoran because the original prefixes for the six standard elements were in the Toa Mata's names, so they used it from Nikila's name. Magnetism = Jo-Matoran? It doesn't sound bad, but I think something better could be made. And Plasma is a tough one, because I can't recall any Toa of Plasma (of any significance, anyway) in the story.

[Alyska]

Trouble is, even the prefixes have to go through the Legal department now......But we're getting off-topic.I think they could have still presented Orde as "a mistake" somehow without making him male. What about an aggressive, out-of-control female Toa of Psionics who was far more powerful than normal? In response to her behaviour, future models would have reduced power levels or something, and the Toa would have spent some time in hiding from the Great Beings who wanted to deactivate her.Then again, if that was the case, we would miss out on the "Great Beings are sexist" explanation...Actually, now I'm wondering just how much the Great beings studied their creations' behaviour. I mean, they knew enough about Orde to tell that he was behaving aggressively, but they still seemed to think that female Toa are always gentle... even though the first Toa they created was Helryx. Maybe Helryx started out passive and gentle, but her personality changed dramatically over time?

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Oh, right... Helryx was the first toa... Hmm... There goes the "male being default" theory... =/ Then again, there are multiple Great Beings, so it's not just one person being sexist here... In fact, we don't know that all of them are.If the first toa they made was female, why make the rest male? What exactly is the difference? Hmm... I think things just went to a whole new level of confusing. XDNot that I disagree with biomechanical beings having gender, I just think this was very poorly conceived and executed on LEGO's part... Don't worry, I think my childhood will recover. XP

[Alex Humva]

My personal theory that will be shoved in my short story: The Great Beings assigned to make the universe within the Mata Nui robot were not constant throughout the construction. The team varied in members throughout the build time, leading to drastically different opinions and thus creations throughout it all.But yeah, if the first female Toa was a psycho then why would Orde be the same, and then have that blamed on his gender? I say, it wasn't the gender at all; the Great Beings who began work first had two templates, a kinder gentler one and a more aggressive one. Peace and war. When they were shifted out with a more sexist team, the team assigned those two personality types to the genders and went on their merry way.

[Hanako Herupa]

I'd prefer to think Helryx behaves that way since she's been through a lot. If anything I believe she was and idealist at first but as more and more things went wrong her optimism faltered which is why she's more of an antihero. I mean that's what makes sense to me. I mean most of the Toa Nuva if not all grew as characters over the years. So Tahu stopped being a hot-head, maybe even Gali was getting a little sick of the villains they faced. I don't remember any exact instances but Gali seemed like she was traveling the path of Helryx. Which is basically a few screws loose under all the stress of her job.I always pictured the younger Helryx as the optimistic but patient leader, who slowly started to get more and more frustrated, and thus became very impatient. You also have to remember by the time she showed up, she's pretty old.

[Alyska]

I guess helryx's personality changing over time and experience makes sense. I seem to recall that she was the one who invented the Toa Code, but she has now excluded herself from it...

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Hmm... Actually, The Toa Code brings up a good point if she was the one to create it. And I like to think she's like that from her past experiences as a toa. She's seen a lot in her days.... You know, I kind of wonder what things would be like if the gender roles were totally reversed? Like have water, psionics and lightning be male while all other elements are female? Think it would be a huge shift in dynamic (well, due to evidence, probably, but it's still an interesting question)?

Edited December 1, 2011 by Tekulo: Toa of Wind

[Alyska]

That might make a good concept for an alternate-universe story, especially if it crosses over with the main universe somehow.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Hmm... two scenarios that come to mind: Having one of our MU residents go to that universe and be weirded outorHaving one of their residents come to our canon MU and be weirded out. XDActually, that does sound like a good premise for a story either way. =')

[Alyska]

So, would the gender-opposites be limited to the Matoran Universe, or would it extend to Spherus Magna and surrounds? If the latter, it would be interesting to see how the character dynamics changed, if at all. For example, it's hinted that the reason there are so few female Glatorians is because they are percieved as weaker, and as a result, don't get jobs. If most of our favourite Glatorians had been born female, would they even be working as Glatorians?

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

What if it turned into a sort of culture where females were revered? Not to say men would be considered weak, but rather they hold females in high regard (I think the Viking culture was like that, though I'm not sure). In a way, we might see less male glatorian as fighting a female could be frowned upon. XD Interesting thought. ^^

[Alex Humva]

From the little I understand of Viking and Norse culture, men and women were considered equals on the field of battle because ****, if you can swing a sword or notch an arrow you're fine. Elsewhere in their culture not so much.Give me a few weeks and I can totally pump a story out of that. Just one question; if the only thing that tells Toa genders apart is the pitch of their voice and color... how the heck will a female Toa of fire and a male Toa of fire tell each other's genders if both have sore throats, or have lower and higher pitches than usual, respectively?Just say'n.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

... The females got the 20% cooler gene and therefore will be awesome by comparison? But I'm getting off topic. XDYou know, I might write something like this sometime. I've been playing around the idea of having a male matoran of water in my epic (which I guess is technically a spoiler, but the story is at the stage where it's not much of one, I guess... XD). I'd do the same with a female of a male element, but... I already have a lot of female characters. @_@ I need to show the guys some more love. XP

[Katuko]

From the little I understand of Viking and Norse culture, men and women were considered equals on the field of battle because ****, if you can swing a sword or notch an arrow you're fine. Elsewhere in their culture not so much.

There's also the Valkyries, which are essentially , all-female angels that guide you into Valhalla when you die on the field of battle. So yeah, if you could swing a sword, you got respect regardless of gender, I think.

Give me a few weeks and I can totally pump a story out of that. Just one question; if the only thing that tells Toa genders apart is the pitch of their voice and color... how the heck will a female Toa of fire and a male Toa of fire tell each other's genders if both have sore throats, or have lower and higher pitches than usual, respectively?Just say'n.

If we go by Mask of Light and the other movies, we can clearly see that female Toa are sleeker and a bit more "curvy", like real women would be. If the Great Beings are as humanoid as we presume, then surely they would design 'bots after that model. Human scientists do the same: Both "male" and "female" robots exist. Edited December 2, 2011 by Katuko

[Alyska]

Well, MU characters seemed to have no trouble telling that Orde was male, so either his voice is the only thing they're going on, or there's some sort of visual clue as well.It's also backed up by other occasions when characters encounter new beings for the first time- there's rarely any doubt about what their gender is, even before they start to speak. In "Federation of Fear", I get the impression that Roodaka was able to recognise Lariska as female, even without knowing what species she was or hearing her voice. Then again, the indirect speech narration made it a little ambiguous whether those were Roodaka's observations or the narrator's, though.

[Alex Humva]

Well, that both helps and hurts my stories. xD Helps my Great Beings on trial story, hurts my universe crossover story xDCome to think of it this topic has given me the will to write Bionicle fan fic again. Who thought that gender dynamics in a toyline would become so thought provoking?

[Alyska]

Well, I guess Bionicle's unusual gender dynamics leave a lot of potential for further exploration/deconstruction, since it hasn't been mentioned much in the canon.Although, Greg seems to like writing about societies with unusual gender dynamics, too.For example, we have the matriachal Vortixx (who are evil).The Skakdi, whose females are larger and stronger than the males (and are also evil).And, the Sisters Of The Skrall, who are very powerful, completely independent of males... and evil....I'm sensing a pattern here...

[Alex Humva]

Yes, that is rather suspicious. And Greg still denies all allegations he's sexist.So my plot thus far for my GB on trial story; the GB council calls forth the GB team responsible for the part of development where the personalities of the Toa were made. The GB council asks the GB team their reasoning, and the GB team goes on their sexist reasons. To see whether or not this is truly the case the GB council picks some random Toa of fire from precataclysm days and gendershifts him... her... him... **** you English! Anywho, the council observes as this random Toa of fire adjusts to being the victim of what is effectively divine intervention, and being an entirely unique creature now.I like it so far.

[Archer Vonn]

shes gay.i was this close to freakin dropping on one knee and pledging my frigging soul to her and shes gay!ugh like naturally i was skeptical but i tried to mask it, like be respectful n supportive and like 'nah i dont like you PFFT', but she goes on. 'im gay, like, couldnt you tell?' then apparently her best friend is also gay. oh sorry, then she corrected herself, she's 'kinda gay. we're both bi' well then your not gay! but of course i cant say that, dont wanna let the cat outta the bag. so i just kinda sit there like an cool dude while we all sittin cozy in the corner of the ###### stage with my mouth hangin open and we exchanging the most awkward looks i ever saw in my ###### life while she explains that most of the girls know, her parents know, and a few of her closer guy friends know that shes GAY.-sigh-ok shes fifteen. ladies i gotta ask, what is it about guys that you hate so much you'd turn gay before you graduated?

Edited December 3, 2011 by ~JC~

[Alyska]

JC, I'm not sure this is the place for that, but to give you some closure...Not all lesbians are man-haters. If she really is attracted to women, then it isn't because of you or any other guy. Maybe some people realise their attraction to other women after they find out that they're not compatible with men, but a lot of people know their sexuality very early on in life- sometimes even before puberty.There is the possibility that it's a phase, or that she's lying to you. Many women lie in order to get rid of unwanted advances- I know I'm guilty of it. If that's the case, then she's just not interested, and is definitely not the one for you. Pursuing someone like that will only end in tears.I hope that wasn't too harsh. Just remember that the one for you is out there somewhere, okay?

[Peach 00]

Yeah, let's keep this from getting too close to subjects like that, guys/girls. But Alyska has a point, but not all women lie. But good luck in finding someone. =)But I believe we're getting off-topic: It seems to me that Greg's view of females in the story is more evil and manipulative than women can actually be. He makes them deceiving and, as mentioned a sentence ago, manipulative. Roodaka is a perfect example of that, as she betrayed both the Brotherhood and the Dark Hunters, which is something you have to admire her for, but only because you'd think she had been executed or captured at this point. Lariska is another fem-fatale-esque character that is pretty awesome.But it seems there are two views of feminine characters in Bionicle: Manipulative and evil, or peaceful and pure. That's only keeping it to the minimum of the female characters from the '05 era, or '06 for that matter, where there weren't any other female elements but Water at the time, if I recall. Thinking of it from that standpoint, there were only two choices in personality, which doesn't leave a lot to be desired. Granted, this is a toyline that is supposed to have a male audience, but because of the growing female fanbase, there were more expanded character backgrounds and - specifically - a slightly larger amount of female elements. So, there was more room for different characteristics and whatnot.

[Archer Vonn]

really doubt she was lying, then again i find myself in denial more than any other state of mind.but thanks, anyways. puts my mind at ease a bit.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Hmm... it would appear that Greg has done the math.If I may (something I learned in Calculus class a while back, true story)Girls = Time and Money (Aka Girls = Time x Money)Time is Money (Aka Time = Money)Girls = Money²Money = The square root of MoneyMoney is the root of all evil.Girls = EvilMath proves it! (Okay, sorry if it's offensive, and it's just a joke, but I actually did "learn" this in my Calc class a few years back. XD).Anyway, I try to avoid building a character based on their gender. Normally I start with "What does this character represent?" like honesty, freedom, annoyance, etc and I make that their dominant personality trait. From there I figure out gender and the nit-picky details. I wonder if Greg makes his female characters female first and then builds off of that instead? Hmm... That might have something to do with it, but I'd have to ask Greg how he comes up with his characters before we could really say for sure.

[Alex Humva]

Noooooo, money is not evil. The book does not say MONEY is evil, it is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Just want to point that out; it's like the most misquoted thing ever. And it's not even money; it's the love of things, possessions, material objects. So yeah. Misquoted and mistranslated. But that's a topic best left on other sites, not discussed here.Me, with my characters, I build a well rounded character and then choose the gender as an afterthought. Gender rarely plays any important part in my stories, at least my more recent ones.

[Alyska]

I think it's possible that Greg just thinks too much about a female character's gender when writing her. That's why Chiara, obviously designed to be an aversion of the stereotypes (she is neither gentle and pure, nor a femme fatale), in practice ends up being a flat character lacking any depth beyond "IMMA ZAP STUFF!"I also don't believe that Greg has some sort of agenda against women, Maybe he simply likes the idea of messing with the gender dynamics, but all the species/societies in the Matoran universe that give him that sort of freedom are the ones that happen to serve as antagonists.

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

That could be it... But to be fair, Chiara hasn't had too much time to be developed as of yet. You can't expect to totally relate to a character after a few chapters (chapters of which don't even center around her character to begin with), so we'll just have to wait and see at this point.I don't think he does it intentionally either (I was joking for the record. >< Curse-kill my sense of humor-laugh!). And the limitations to gender in the story do put a damper on things... When was it that the gender rules were canonized officially? I remember hoping (when I was a kid around 2001/2002 that there could be a female matoran of air. My inner-child was so disappoint... =/ (Why is that my new favorite phrase? O.o)

[Katuko]

The gender split has been in place since the series began, when Ga-Koro was claimed to be an all-female village and all the others male.