So...is There A Peice Of This I'm Missing?

[Thunder on the Mountain]

There may have been a topic like this on the old forum, but I can't recall having read anything. See, I'm seriously confused about the Makuta (The Species) at the moment and I'd appreciate if a couple things were cleared up for me.See, the Makuta are ridiculously powerful beings, right? But I don't think you all realize exactly how powerful they are. Sure, you've got your big list right here, and already that's pretty darn hyped up, but then I'd also ask you to think about the key element in that: all 42 Kraata powers. So...when you say powerful, you mean, everything shown here powerful. (Assuming they'd have access to the highest level of Kraata power, and if they don't, take your pick from the different power levels there, my point basically still stands) So...stack all those on top of the other powers in the first link and you basically have a god. With next to unlimited powers.So...now, thinking about that god here, look at the list shown here, and count the full twelve Makuta that were battle ready since the Great Cataclysm at an absolute minimum. So, now we're talking about twelve (probably more), invincible gods with unlimited powers just wandering around the universe.Now hold that last thought, and think about the Destiny War, and the Karda-Nui saga. (don't bring up the three Mistika Makuta's powers being locked away, that proves nothing against the point in the big picture) Where the Makuta actually lose. The eight makuta in Karda Nui get beaten by an inferior number of inferior matched Toa, plus every other Makuta in the 'verse is killed by some other means by people less powerful than them. My question to you is, how on earth could the Makuta lose like this?Need something more to put this whole thing into perspective? Okay, Remember the Bohrok-Kal, who were all, y'know, insanely powerful Bohrok that could match the most powerful Toa in the universe in numbers and then spank them brutally? Even if the Toa Nuva had their powers, you gotta admit that it looks like the fight would be a pretty even match with the powers the Kal were packing. Each one of those guys is a fraction of the power a Makuta has. (The Bohrok Kal powers are on the list up there) 1/42 if your looking at the small picture. The Rahkshi, who were also pretty close to invincible back in 2003? Yeah, well, there's another 1/42th of the power of a Makuta per Rahkshi right there. So when you really think about the fact that there's a bare minimum of 12 guys in the universe with an unspeakable amount of power, one should think that the Toa Nuva in Karda Nui would have been crushed in their first five minutes of fighting, and by extension the universe itself could have been conquered basically whenever the Makuta wanted it to be, am I right?So, basically, I'm just asking all of you guys, is it really just how I'm making it out to be, or is there another reason the Makuta lost that I might be missing? Thoughts, comments? If this whole thing doesn't make sense to you, it's my fault, because I'm bad at getting my thoughts out like this sensically, so just let me know if this is the case.

[Ghosthands]

These are some excellent points you make, and ones that I myself have considered more than once. Although I don't think I can quite answer everything, this is how I would respond:

• [*]Versatility does not equal invincibility. My guess would be that Makuta cannot easily use more than one Kraata power at a time.[*]The Mata Nui Rahkshi were, I believe, elite versions in some way.[*]Makuta have a fair number of weaknesses. Toa of Iron and Magnetism, plus Protosteel weaponry, pose a significant threat to their armour, and in Antidermis form, they are highly vulnerable.[*]The Makuta in Karda Nui simply failed to escape the energy storms, while the Toa in question got quite lucky.[*]And, of course, Teridax wanted his brothers out of the way.

And a little quote from our friend Antroz:"The challenge of being a Makuta is choosing which powers to use to destroy your enemies. It gets boring using the same ones all the time. Variety is the spice of destruction, after all."

[Thunder on the Mountain]

These are some excellent points you make, and ones that I myself have considered more than once. Although I don't think I can quite answer everything, this is how I would respond:

• [*]Versatility does not equal invincibility. My guess would be that Makuta cannot easily use more than one Kraata power at a time.[*]The Mata Nui Rahkshi were, I believe, elite versions in some way.[*]Makuta have a fair number of weaknesses. Toa of Iron and Magnetism, plus Protosteel weaponry, pose a significant threat to their armour, and in Antidermis form, they are highly vulnerable.[*]The Makuta in Karda Nui simply failed to escape the energy storms, while the Toa in question got quite lucky.[*]And, of course, Teridax wanted his brothers out of the way.

And a little quote from our friend Antroz:"The challenge of being a Makuta is choosing which powers to use to destroy your enemies. It gets boring using the same ones all the time. Variety is the spice of destruction, after all."

Well see, you also have some pretty good points, but do allow me to counter.1. True enough, but you have to admit with such a massive range of abilities, their powers are near limitless. Any one of those powers used at its level 6 potential is very powerful ability, and with access to all fourty two, well, y'know.2. I always figured their powers were just the most potent, making them the 'elite', and seeing as Makuta possess their abilities as well, it didn't really matter, but I could be wrong. *Shrug*3. There's no question they have weaknesses, but in regards to the Toa of Iron and Magnetism, most of those Toa, not all, but most were wiped out for this very reason. The protosteel weapons are an advantage for sure, against anyone who can actually last in combat with a Makuta long enough to use them. Generally I'd think this number would be pretty small.4. But how were they able to survive the conflict with the Makuta up until that point? The battle did last a while before hand.5. Well, yes, but the way most of them were killed seems unlikely in possibility because of the above points.

[Ghosthands]

These are some excellent points you make, and ones that I myself have considered more than once. Although I don't think I can quite answer everything, this is how I would respond:

• [*]Versatility does not equal invincibility. My guess would be that Makuta cannot easily use more than one Kraata power at a time.[*]The Mata Nui Rahkshi were, I believe, elite versions in some way.[*]Makuta have a fair number of weaknesses. Toa of Iron and Magnetism, plus Protosteel weaponry, pose a significant threat to their armour, and in Antidermis form, they are highly vulnerable.[*]The Makuta in Karda Nui simply failed to escape the energy storms, while the Toa in question got quite lucky.[*]And, of course, Teridax wanted his brothers out of the way.

And a little quote from our friend Antroz:"The challenge of being a Makuta is choosing which powers to use to destroy your enemies. It gets boring using the same ones all the time. Variety is the spice of destruction, after all."

Well see, you also have some pretty good points, but do allow me to counter.1. True enough, but you have to admit with such a massive range of abilities, their powers are near limitless. Any one of those powers used at its level 6 potential is very powerful ability, and with access to all fourty two, well, y'know.2. I always figured their powers were just the most potent, making them the 'elite', and seeing as Makuta possess their abilities as well, it didn't really matter, but I could be wrong. *Shrug*3. There's no question they have weaknesses, but in regards to the Toa of Iron and Magnetism, most of those Toa, not all, but most were wiped out for this very reason. The protosteel weapons are an advantage for sure, against anyone who can actually last in combat with a Makuta long enough to use them. Generally I'd think this number would be pretty small.4. But how were they able to survive the conflict with the Makuta up until that point? The battle did last a while before hand.5. Well, yes, but the way most of them were killed seems unlikely in possibility because of the above points.

My counter-counters:2. I would say chain lightning is rather more potent than hunger.4. These were the eight most powerful Toa in the universe, remember. The Toa Nuva, Takanuva (beefed up by KN), and the Toa Ignika.And my final point would be:What is the biggest trait exhibited by the Makuta species? They're ambitious, yes. Merciless, yes. Intelligent, certainly.But above all, they are arrogant. And I would say that it is their arrogance that causes them not to make full use of their powers.And as another thing to think about - every Toa has enough energy inside them to flatten an island.

[Irafa]

The impression I got from the entire 2008 storyline was that the Toa could have been killed any time the Makuta wanted to kill them, and the only reason they weren't killed was because they were important to The Plan. About their "unlikely" deaths, most Makuta were killed by a greater or equal power, namely the Mata Nui robot or another Makuta.

[Thunder on the Mountain]

@ Ghosthand2. Point, but again, that was just my understanding of the original six Rahkshi. Mayhaps your right in that sense.4. Oh, I have no doubt that Takanuva and the Toa Ignika could stand up to the Makuta, but bear in mind that the Toa Nuva had been beaten less than a year earlier by just a group of rogue Skakdi.The Makuta are packing a lot more than the Piraka.Your other point: See, I can get that for most of the Makuta, but take Antroz for an example. Like in the quote above, he was perfectly capable of using every power available to him, and one of his key personality traits was his ability to not underestimate his opponents. Not all the Makuta suffer that same flaw you've pointed out, and as you said, they're all very intelligent, merciless beings. You're very right though, I can see that being the downfall of more than a couple of the Makuta.@Waikiru: I guess this whole argument is based around how you or me or anyone personally interprets the story. Take Tridax for example. I mean, bad example, cause he was caught by surprise, but it took them what, ten seconds flat to take him down. Tobduks a trained killer and all, but it just seemed a little too...easy. *Shrug* Like I said, it's just how you perceive it I guess.

[Disciple]

The Makuta never did get beaten by the Toa Nuva, though, because their goal was to stall them, not kill them. Antroz's group were killed by the energy storms or by each other. The remaining Makuta were killed by Great Spirit Teridax or by OoMN members, who can be pretty powerful themselves. Zaria and Tobduk managed to kill a few only because they used methods the Makuta were extremely vulnerable to. I agree that Tobduk killed Tridax way too easily, though.Also keep in mind the Makuta basically did rule the universe until they got wiped out. Gorast ruled a whole island, Chirox destroyed Tobduk's homeland just as a test, and Icarax effortlessly squashed the Toa Nuva when they fought him in Karzahni. For a long period, they basically were the gods you described.

[Makuta Matata]

Uhm, the plan was to lose in Karda Nui. All the Makuta were then killed by Teridax (besides Miserix).

[Dralcax]

Teridax just had to hold them all back, keep them on a leash, restrain them from putting up a good fight, all for the sake of his plan. I mean, Panrahk or Guurahk alone could have killed the Toa Nuva by tapping them on the shoulder and using their power!

[~Lord Zahaku~]

With the exception of the Karda Nui Makuta and Tridax, I do agree with you. The Karda Nui Makuta were told to let the Toa win but were not told about the Energy Storms which led to their deaths.Tridax's armour was eaten and then he was incinerated before he really had a chance to do anything about it.~Lord Zahaku

Edited November 19, 2011 by ~Lord Zahaku~

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Tridax's armour was eaten and then he was incinerated before he really had a chance to do anything about it.~Lord Zahaku

This. Tridax was caught completely off-guard by Tobduk's attack. One thing that Makuta can't do is sense other beings beyond the usual 5 senses (with the exception of sensing other Makuta).

[Thunder on the Mountain]

Y'all have me on the Karda Nui point I suppose, but I don't really see why it had to come to that. Set aside Teridax's plan, the Brotherhood probably could've taken the universe by themselves at any point I figure, prior to Teridax's command.I hold to my Tridax argument though. I'm not going to spend time arguing over what powers he could have used to dodge or avoid the attack in general, because there's one point that makes a much more convincing argument, and that's the fact that Tridax doesn't immediately disintegrate. If you read the passage, yes he's incinerating, but he's not vaporized on spot, it's taking time to melt him. I don't see why Tridax couldn't have used those precious last seconds to turn around and use any number of powers to kill Tobduk instantly, Mazeka too if necessary. *Shrug*

[toa kopaka4372]

Y'all have me on the Karda Nui point I suppose, but I don't really see why it had to come to that. Set aside Teridax's plan, the Brotherhood probably could've taken the universe by themselves at any point I figure, prior to Teridax's command.I hold to my Tridax argument though. I'm not going to spend time arguing over what powers he could have used to dodge or avoid the attack in general, because there's one point that makes a much more convincing argument, and that's the fact that Tridax doesn't immediately disintegrate. If you read the passage, yes he's incinerating, but he's not vaporized on spot, it's taking time to melt him. I don't see why Tridax couldn't have used those precious last seconds to turn around and use any number of powers to kill Tobduk instantly, Mazeka too if necessary. *Shrug*

About Tridax- He was in Antidermis form, and the powers a Makuta can use in that form are quite limited. Anything involving toying with Tobduk's mind is out, since all OoMN members have mental shields. Also, we don't know how good of a fighter Tridax was. He might have been terrible at combat and was still trying to get a grasp on things.About Makuta conquering the whole Universe at anytime- Remember that under Miserix's rule, the Brotherhood served Mata Nui, so they never would have attempted such a thing. Also, after the Brotherhood of Makuta turned evil, they kept the whole thing secret. Conquering the Universe would have immediately revealed their true colors. No one knew for sure that the Brotherhood was an evil organization until the Great Cataclysm. After the Great Cataclysm the Brotherhood had its own share of problems that prevented them from doing much in that period, including the war with the Dark Hunters. And let's not forget that the Brotherhood is not the only faction in the Universe. You had the Order of Mata Nui bhind the scenes, the Toa, and Dark Hunters who could have resisted had the Brotherhood attempted to take over the Universe earlier, which brings me to my next point: the Brotherhood's war with the Order of Mata Nui. Now, the Order of Mata Nui beat the Brotherhood for a few reasons:1. Teridax left the rest of the Makuta to take care of themselves; he provided them no leadership, as far as we are aware, unlike Helryx, who gave out orders during the war.2. The war was essentially Brotherhood of Makuta vs. everybody, since the OoMN recruited everybody they could.3. The Brotherhood, while still very powerful, is still a small organization, so they were totlly outnumbered.4. They were unaware of the Order's existence, so their attack caught them completely off gourd.

[Exo-Kahgarak]

According to the description in Destiny War/Brothers in Arms, it seems to take at least a few seconds for his armor to dissolve. Does he:a. kill his enemies using chain lightning or similar before his armor dissolves and he is completely helpless? orb. stand there and let his armor dissolve?He takes option b, of course.Yes, there's the war with the Dark Hunters... but can 300-odd Toa-level beings (at best) really stand up to legions of Rahkshi, Exo-Toa, infected Rahi, Fohrok, Visorak, and who knows what else (not to mention a few dozen Makuta, who are by themselves probably equal in power to the majority of the Dark Hunters combined)?And, for the OoMN/BoM war:1. Surely someone would have taken control, once they knew they were being attacked.2. Who else important is there besides the OoMN and BoM? The 40 or so Toa who weren't either dead or in Karda Nui? The aforementioned Dark Hunters? These make up a tiny fraction of the OoMN's power.3. There might not be many Makuta, but they still have massive armies of Rahkshi, Exo-Toa, infected Rahi, Fohrok, and Visorak (at least until the Vissorak get deus-ex-machina-ed out of existence by the Mahri).4. Yes, but it still seems awfully convenient that we never saw so much as a tie; at worst, a victory after a 'long and furious battle', to quote Helryx. In fact, I think the only two times we've seen the Order not win have been Brutaka v. Axonn (though Brutaka was a rebel from the Order itself, and later was defeated and rejoined) and Brutaka v. Teridax (which was a tie).

Edited November 20, 2011 by Exo-Kahgarak

[Toa of Nerds]

There was a lot back-stabbing going on among the ranks of the Makuta as well. Teridax didn't want for the Brotherhood to control Mata-Nui, he wanted to control Mata-Nui himself. That led him to betray all other supposed threats (other Makuta) which led to their deaths. As stated before, the Karda-Nui episode is not indicative of the powers of the Makuta. They never intended to beat the toa, only to give the impression that they didn't want the toa to revive Mata-Nui, which was not true.Also, don't undersell the powers of the toa. Unlike the Makuta, they always worked together, not constantly against each other. Think of the Makuta as the Philadelphia Eagles. There's a ton of talent on that team, but they don't have any chemistry whatsover, and so they're losing.-don't touch my pocket protector

[Katuko]

Personally, if I had been charged with a Makuta's power level, I would have done things differently than them, as they are prone to making a few bad decisions here and there. The few times the Makuta start going all-out, however, they are brutally effective.Icarax crushed Botar like a tin can. Terdiax tore Karzahni apart as soon as he realized his foe could actually get a hit in. Brutaka survived only because Teridax tried to use powers he was trained to handle, and because he is ridiculously tough. Terry used Gravity to fling him onto a mountain and yet he kept coming. He would have lost if Teridax weren't forced to leave to continue the Plan. Heck, prior to their battle Icarax apparently went "screw the plan, I'm going brute force" and then he proceeded to completely wreck people on the northern continent before he got subdued... by one of his own.The Karda Nui Makuta "lost" only because they were told explicitly to hold back and not kill the Toa. Then the storm disintegrated them all. Icarax lost to Gali only because he took the time to gloat, and yet he survived the crushing force of a Nova-powered tidal wave and escaped with what he came for. Teridax was apparently hardy enough to simply chill and let Icarax exhaust himself (fully-powered Makuta, that) before he decided to fight back.List of Makuta deaths:- Kojol and Tridax killed by armor-eating virus that rendered them helpless to use their powers.- Those choosing not to side with Teridax got hunted down by their own super-powered species.- Spiriah got absorbed by fellow Makuta Miserix.- Krika and Icarax got disrupted in such a way that their molecules scattered across the entire area.- The Karda Nui team got fried to crisp by the energy storms.- Teridax got headshotted by a moon fragment, destroying both his physical form and antidermis in one fell swoop.Only in the alternate universes do we see Makuta get killed in a straight fight, and then only by powers they are explicitly weak to. Presumably they won't have time to focus some Chain Lightning when their armor is already being torn apart.The troops that they control are a lot weaker, especially considering how the "elite" Rahkshi fared once the Toa started to fight back. Kopaka defeated three of them by himself due to quick thinking. In Mask of Light, when he first meets them, he is a bit wary and is caught off-guard by an energy beam. A minute later he has them deep-frozen in a lake. In Onu-Koro, Pohatu is first stunned by Turahk, but then nails him/it to the wall later. Lewa whirls up three Rahkshi at once with a cyclone. It's all about how you choose to fight, and I dare say Toa have more versatile powers than Rahkshi and other creatures.If the Order of Mata Nui works they way it seems to do in the serials, they would make the best out of their members' abilities and thus be able to fight back competently. Tobduk kills a Makuta via virus + disintegration staff. Presumably he could have done the same with just the staff, if he had been able to blow a hole in Tridax via ambush. I can imagine Axonn slicing through Rahi and Visorak like they were nothing. Even Matoran can fight back if you give them some Kanoka launchers and load them with some freeze, weaken and shrink disks.During the battle for Metru Nui, the Order is mentioned to have fortified the city with reinforced walls and various mounted weapons. Let's compare a Rahkshi to a helicopter: Both can fly (height advantage), both have strong armor, and both can rain down destruction from above. But they can also both be shot down by anti-air-cannons. If we assume the Order has access to fitting tech (they have waged war on the Brotherhood for a long time, after all, and sometimes been in touch with Artakha) they could well defend themselves and fight back Brotherhood forces.If an actual Makuta showed up on the field, however, things would be different. Teleport spam + super-powers = crushed defense. Unless, of course, the Order deploys their recruits from Botar's species + Toa with Kualsi or something, then equip them with virus-loaded Zamor and possibly laser weaponry. The Makuta could then be distracted until someone "snipes" him with one of his few weaknesses.The Makuta have counters to many methods of attack, but so do other beings. Hau shields, mental training, teleportation... like in tactical RPGs, the Makuta would have to vary their attacks, and they could very well be overwhelmed and downed by a lucky shot if they got too distracted/prideful. I'm reminded of a fight in the indie game Iji: There is an alien assassin that has made you into his own personal nemesis, and he is waiting to fight you. He can spam-teleport extremely fast, and he has trained enough to be able to react to and teleport away from even (instant) laser cannons. Due to sheer arrogance, however, he refuses to dodge "simple" weapon fire such as regular shotgun blasts. Therefore, the only way to beat him is to react quickly any time he appears and whittle down his shield little by little until he finally dies. Even when he's nearly dead, he will only become more aggressive, not more cautious. I imagine Makuta to be like this: they will wade into an army and swat people down like flies, and possibly be too full of themselves to realize exactly what sort of secret weapon their opponent may be packing."Zamor spheres? Pathetic! Even if you filled them with acid you wouldn't be able to get thro--oh, hello, armor-eating virus. "

[Thunder on the Mountain]

M'kay. People keep making posts before mine that render this moot. So, I'll make this quick. You've basically got me convinced, 'specially after that last post. I wouldn't have started this topic if it weren't for the fact it all kept me kinda...confused. There's still a couple things I stand by though.1. Tridax was far too easy to kill, and could have survived the fight, at least in an antidermis form.2. There's almost a full 80,000 years there where one of the Makuta could have smartened up and realized they didn't really need the plan to reign over the universe, with abilities they had, they could have taken, or at least tried at taking, the universe at any point.3. It just generally seems like as the story went on, the plot begins to forget how powerful the Makuta really are. Remember the early years, where Terry was basically invincible, and you couldn't take him down no matter how many ways you tried doing it, how he was kinda the ultimate villain? That's not the vibe you get from the Makuta in the later years, or at least it's not the vibe I get. It seems they slowly get pumped down to the level of souped up Toa. Like I've said before though, it's all how you perceive it or something. *Shrug*

[Gahlok Va]

Some things that have not been said yet...Remember how Miserix has owned pretty much everyone? Yes, he did lose to Teridax, who we know is pretty much hard to beat. But after being imprisoned for millennia, he has1. Absorbed Spiriah, a fellow Makuta.2. Absorbed Makuta of Stelt, also a fellow Makuta.3. Destroyed machinery in Core Processor, only to be defeated by Teridax, now with powers of Great Spirit.4. After being freed by Tren Krom in Lewa's body, he defeats him in the fight by SLAMMING HIM TO WALL! I know, not so good usage of Makuta's powers, but still cool.Alternate Teridax have also been not mentioned. DM Teridax isn't killed by Toa Empire. Kingdom Teridax was killed, but how strong would you be after being alone for 10,000 years? Melding Teridax managed killed several Takanuva, using his battle skills, not his powers, and only got slightly injured.Maybe using so much powers is diffifult? The DH Conjurer sunk comatose when he tried to copy the powers of a Makuta. So it could take a lot of concentration to master all of their powers, and not all of them might not have been interested in training.About the powers of Rahkshi: wild Rahkshi are not even close as powerful as the Rahkshi in BoM's armies. Nokama, a novice Toa, managed to subdue three of them in BA3.

[toa kopaka4372]

M'kay. People keep making posts before mine that render this moot. So, I'll make this quick. You've basically got me convinced, 'specially after that last post. I wouldn't have started this topic if it weren't for the fact it all kept me kinda...confused. There's still a couple things I stand by though.1. Tridax was far too easy to kill, and could have survived the fight, at least in an antidermis form.2. There's almost a full 80,000 years there where one of the Makuta could have smartened up and realized they didn't really need the plan to reign over the universe, with abilities they had, they could have taken, or at least tried at taking, the universe at any point.3. It just generally seems like as the story went on, the plot begins to forget how powerful the Makuta really are. Remember the early years, where Terry was basically invincible, and you couldn't take him down no matter how many ways you tried doing it, how he was kinda the ultimate villain? That's not the vibe you get from the Makuta in the later years, or at least it's not the vibe I get. It seems they slowly get pumped down to the level of souped up Toa. Like I've said before though, it's all how you perceive it or something. *Shrug*

1. Remember Tridax was caught off guard with the virus. When he finally pulled himself together, he did attmept to attack Tobduk. However, almost all Makuta powers need a physical body. Tridax could only do mental attacks in his condition, which is useless since Tobduk's mind was shielded. Tridax could have tried to float away, but Tobduk would have destroyed him as soon as he did. It was over for Tridax as soon as he lost his armor. He couldn't really do anything when Tobduk incinerated him. Also, I think it'd be difficult to think when you're being incinerated...2. Teridax clearly had the utmost loyalty of nearly everyone in the Brotherhood. Only two people disagreed with him: Icarax and Krika, and even Icarax was the only one to do it publicly. Also, when you look at it, Teridax ruled the Brotherhood using a mixture of mercy and fear. He was only brutal with them when necessary. For example, even though Kojol disobeyed orders when raiding Artakha, Teridax let it slide because he achieved his goal. Also, Teridax had a 'hands-off' policy with the other Makuta most of the time. As seen in The Mutran Chronicles, Teridax spent most of his time off Destral, so the rest of the Brotherhood had the freedom of doing whatever they want. This treatment almost guarantees little to no resentment of Teridax among the other members, since he did not oppress them. At the same time, Teridax kept the others fearful by having all the Makuta who sided with Miserix killed. Also, by not killing Icarax when he rebelled, Teridax held that incident over Icarax's head, thus making Icarax fearful, since he knew Teridax could kill him whenever he felt like it. 3. No, I don't feel like that. I guess you're right, it's a matter of opinion. But let's not forget that the Brotherhood of Makuta ruled the Universe for most of their existence, and that the Toa never ever truly emerged victorious against the Brotherhood. In fact, the Brotherhood's first major defeat, not counting the problems that occurred after the Great Cataclysm, was its last (I'm referring to the war with the OoMN.)

[Katuko]

2. There's almost a full 80,000 years there where one of the Makuta could have smartened up and realized they didn't really need the plan to reign over the universe, with abilities they had, they could have taken, or at least tried at taking, the universe at any point.

The whole reason they wanted to take down Mata Nui was1) that he was the only one above them on the ladder of power, and they wanted to be on top,2) that the Matoran revered him rather than the Makuta, and3) that if they got too uppity, Mata Nui could simply nuke them out of existence unless they disabled him first. They had myriads of powers, true, but MN controlled the very ground they walked on. A good dose of über-gravity and a concentrated blast from the heating systems could probably take them out.

3. It just generally seems like as the story went on, the plot begins to forget how powerful the Makuta really are. Remember the early years, where Terry was basically invincible, and you couldn't take him down no matter how many ways you tried doing it, how he was kinda the ultimate villain? That's not the vibe you get from the Makuta in the later years, or at least it's not the vibe I get. It seems they slowly get pumped down to the level of souped up Toa. Like I've said before though, it's all how you perceive it or something. *Shrug*

Yes, that is a regular issue with powerful villains. The more often they turn up, the quicker they are defeated, simply because "the audience has seen it before". While Makuta have 40+ powers and thus can become very interesting villains, using all of the Brotherhood members in the story at the same time means that there's less space for each of them. Each got their own personality, at least, but for story reasons they also had to be limited some way. Personally, I still had the feeling that Makuta were the most dangerous villains around well into the end game, but of course they couldn't actually kill the Toa to prove it. And since nearly all of them were in Karda Nui to handle the Toa in the first place, that leaves only Miserix, Spiriah and Tridax to wreak some havoc in the rest of the world. Tridax got killed by a surprise attack, and Miserix ended up on the Order's side once freed. Spiriah seemed to stick around out the Order out of fear of his brothers rather than an actual need to. At any point, he could presumably have vanished from his jail cell or teleported off the boat, but he didn't. Instead it is mentioned that he is paranoid and afraid of setting foot in any village lest someone from the Brotherhood capture him.When Teridax hooked himself up to the MU mainframe, he would have been safe from harm had he just gone all-out on his opposition at once. Kill the Toa (all of them) with his powers. Kill the Order. Kill the Dark Hunters. He did apparently try (destroyed their islands) but both groups had relocated. His limited omnipresence at the time kept him from finding them at first. He also toyed with them once he did, like me when I play Fallout 3: I can, at any point, turn on God Mode and become invincible, or whip out my Mini-Nuke launcher and kill even the toughest enemies in one shot. But I don't, because I don't get any satisfaction out of that. If I were Makuta at that point in time, however, I would do it at once. I mean, you wipe the floor with everyone, then you aim for your infinitely larger goal. Otherwise you get stabbed in the back by the ones you ignored (though Mata Nui did all the work in this case, Helryx was seconds from killing everything).Summary: Pride and arrogance killed the Makuta.

[Thunder on the Mountain]

3) that if they got too uppity, Mata Nui could simply nuke them out of existence unless they disabled him first. They had myriads of powers, true, but MNcontrolled the very ground they walked on. A good dose of über-gravity and a concentrated blast from the heating systems could probably take them out.

See I'm not sure Mata Nui would have done that though. In his whole history, he never once interfered with the universe no matter what kinda of stuff was going down. Was all kind of explained right here, sorta. :PI guess I'm operating under the assumption that there was more than the twelve we've been talking about out there leading the war, that were just all killed by Teridax when taking over the MU. There's not really any straight up evidence of that, but you'd think you wouldn't have the whole majority of the Makuta in Karda Nui. Sure, Teridax wanted them out of the way, but some like Tridax were out helping the war effort. Presumably he just killed them or in Tridax's case had planned on killing them but they were conveniently removed beforehand.

Summary: Pride and arrogance killed the Makuta.

And I guess I get that now, as much as the whole thing still seems a little shaky to me.