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My Thoughts on Arguing

Posted by xccj , in Thoughts Aug 20 2013 · 2,563 views

Serious entry funny stuff later
So I guess there’s another blog war going on.  Oh boy.  But a few bits of it have annoyed me, and despite myself, I’m going to add in my words.  (And to be fair, I've only read a few entries on this issue, and I’m not going to pretend to be some sort of expert or anything.  Please hear me out before replying.)
 
So, to get to the bone of it, there’s a discussion over LGTBQA+ rights.  I should say something along the lines of “I’m a neutral party” but I’m just going to come out and say it.  I am in support of Princess Grr’s Gender Squad.  I do not like discrimination of any kind, and I think it’s an excellent idea to support those in the minority.  BUT that does not mean I approve of the way some people have been doing so.  (I’m not going to name names, and I’m not even sure if the people I have in mind are associated with Princess Grr.)
 
Anyway.  These people (I’m just gonna refer to them as Group A) fight fire with fire.  They see hatred and fight back with equally angry stances.  Now to step back.  This is not saying Group A doesn’t have a right to be angry.  This is not saying that they are completely overreacting.  But the people they are angry against (for scientific purposes, let’s label them Group B) are human too, and deserve to be treated with basic respect.  Again stepping back; this does not mean Group B is not in the wrong or that the issue should be ignored.  What I think is that this method of “discussion” is ineffective and should be gone about in a different way.
 
The way I see it is this; when Group A harshly puts down Group B for their actions, they are victimizing them.  Group A probably doesn’t see it this way, and their reasoning is probably legitimate.  But Group B won’t believe that legitimacy, no matter the facts.  They will feel victimized, and as such be less likely to listen to any further reasoning from Group A.  This doesn’t solve the conflict; if anything, it makes things worse.  Another analogy: Group B is acting like a bully.  Group A’s response is to bully them right back.  I don’t know what your elementary school education was like, but I was taught that this isn’t the way to solve conflicts.
 
Based off what Princess Grr wrote about, I thought the idea was to educate Group B about the issues of LGTBQA+ rights.  You don’t do this by villain-izing them right off the bat.  You open a reasonable discussion.  You calmly explain to them why their comments were hurtful or disrespectful.  I know I can’t say this for everybody, but I would like to think that most people aren’t actively trying to be down on LGTBQA+.  Perhaps they are ignorant of how their words and actions hurt others, and given a calm discussion, they will realize the errors of their ways. 
 
Yes, that’s an insanely optimistic way to put it, but why shouldn’t that be the first step.  This is a kids forum after all, and it wouldn’t surprise if people posting here don’t realize what their words are doing to people.  They’re likely to have a point of view based on their upbringing, and by outright telling them they are wrong and evil, they’re going to get defensive.  But if the first step... even if it’s just the first step... is to honestly tell them how you and others in Group A feel, then perhaps you will sow the seeds that will lead them to move past their outdated upbringing and become more progressive and opened to others who are different than they are.
 
Is this the only step?  Eventually, is verbal harassment the best solution for some people who won't change?  Here’s a quick story: one year in college, I got forced into a room with a guy and we ended up having several conflicting lifestyle preferences, such as when to turn the lights off and what temperature to keep the room.  We butted heads quite often, and I eventually went to my RA, who had us sit down and try to reach a settlement.  I was willing to make some sacrifices to match his, but he was utterly unwilling to admit that his ways were perfect and wouldn't budge until I did everything according to his methods.  Our sit-down went nowhere, and the eventual outcome was me paying to change rooms.
 
The moral of that story?  Some people are too stubborn or prideful to change their ways or beliefs.  No matter how much reasonable discussion is had, they won't yield to a new way of thinking.  In this case, more extreme measures might be appropriate.  I was really into the idea of hitting him hard on the head, for example.  (My RA advised me not to do that.)  In this case, said member might be asked to leave the community, if they are truly incapable of being open to others.  BUT such drastic measures are not the first step, and they should probably be avoided anyway.  The first step is to try and calmly talk it out.  That’s what my RA did, and that’s what they taught me about bullies in elementary school.  Want another metaphor?  Say that the problem is like a wound.  Clawing and scratching at it won’t make it better, and could actually make it worse.  Applying medicine will help it heal.
 
So let’s apply some medicine to this situation.  Let’s educate Group B about the LGTBQA+ community.  Let’s teach them to be friendlier and more open.  Let us not be like Malcolm X during the Civil Rights era, where we fight fire with fire.  Let us be more like Martin Luther King Jr.
 
We are all people.  Nobody’s perfect.  Some of us are wrong.  Some of us can be very wrong.  So help us correct the errors of our ways instead of shouting slander at us.  The shouting might be legitimized and make you feel better, but ultimately, it’s not going to solve the problem.
 
From what I read, Princess Grr’s Gender Squad is about using the metaphorical medicine to solve the problem, and I fully support that.  I hope that others in this argument can back down and start taking an approach like this.  Frankly I am disappointed that so many have taken the yelling approach instead.  Come on, we can be better than this!
 
I’m not saying this is the perfect solution.  I don’t know what the perfect solution is at all.  I just think that calm discussions are a better method than angry villain-ization, and I hope further discussions move away from the latter.
 
Anyway, if you do see some error in my reasoning, please politely let me know.  I’m willing to admit when I make a mistake, even if I don’t like doing so.  It’s strange to write this, because I am clearly a pessimist, but I think you should look for the good in people first before you judge them harshly.  My motto is to respect everybody equally, until they have proven that they do not deserve my respect.  Even if Group B is being disrespectful, try to help them change for the better before putting them under some sort of evil label.
 
Those are my thoughts for tonight.  Thank you for reading, and peace out.  :)
 

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But he is the lone exception.    He is the one encounter out of the myriads that give me hope.  To prove my point, allow me to go through my linked entries and pull out  every single example of homophobia despite my attempts to change their mind.

 

1.  Tilius: The reactions of homophobes are humorous and not hurtful.

Wait, what? Why am I in the list of homophobic people....? What the ######?

 

Seriously. What?

 

If that's the impression you've taken from my approach to this stuff then you've entirely missed the point.

 

Homophobic people aren't funny. They're hurtful. I mock them for being utterly idiotic human beings. If it was up to me it'd be an instant, permanent ban for those people. The idea of educating them and getting them to change their minds is a nice idea, but if logic and reason had any influence over them, then they wouldn't be spouting that stuff in the first place. It's time consuming and pointless.

 

My approach treats these people with contempt - no patience or 'love' or anything, they aren't worth that. Just get them out of society, force them out if necessary.

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Scanty Demon
Aug 21 2013 11:05 AM

But he is the lone exception. He is the one encounter out of the myriads that give me hope. To prove my point, allow me to go through my linked entries and pull out every single example of homophobia despite my attempts to change their mind.

1. Tilius: The reactions of homophobes are humorous and not hurtful.


Umm.. I have to agree with Tilius, he's anything BUT a homophobe. Unless you mean someone else with a similar name, Tilius should be nowhere on that list of names. Seriously the word homophobe should never be used to describe Tilius as he has stated and shown constantly he isn't a homophobe.
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Jean Valjean
Aug 21 2013 11:46 AM

:kaukau: I support this entry because it gets at something I'm personally too afraid to say myself (look at the comments and you'll see why: to put such positive effort into something only to be rejected is pretty hurtful).  To rephrase your words into something slightly shorter, allow me to give my thoughts on the matter:

 

Basically, the victims of prejudice have every right to be offended, and they also have the right to lash out and criticize the offending party.  I understand those emotions and those actions.  They are very human.  At the same time, this recourse has proven less effective in achieving their goals of gaining respect and equality than they would like, because of the very human response to that: the oppressors feel victimized when they're attacked.  There's a pretty simple reason for this, and I believe it's because people often identify with their statements, and an attack on their statement is felt to be an attack against them personally, and I think part of that is a vibe that comes from the people accusing them because I think it's our natural tendency to paint people and define them by their attitudes and statements.

 

Is homophobia wrong?  You bet.  Then again, I think there has to be an easier way of going about solving the problem beyond the direct approach.  I have to wonder if there's a back door.

 

I remember those shows from the 50's.  I know that this era often gets mocked on this site, but I highly respect that generation for some things they valued that we're valuing less today.  For example, the ability to speak calmly to each other, to clearly communicate our ideas and to be very personal with each other.  People were very warm in the television shows of the era.  I don't know how much that reflects the reality of the period, but I wish something of that atmosphere should be remembered and believed in.

 

What I'm basically saying is that it's good for "Group A" to communicate is concerns.  They're legitimate.  I just want to go the extra mile and discover a more efficient means of communication that resolves more issues and gets more done.  Otherwise, as B6 said, we just have a bunch of people shouting at each other, and BZPower is meant to be a place of civility.

 

If I may relate a personal story: I was diagnosed with Asperger's at an early age.  It doesn't really affect my ability to function as a concrete thinker, but I know that it will close some doors for me.  It made me awkward.  I was often treated as less of a human being for not automatically picking up on social expectations for me and lacking proper tact.  However, I was limited in how much I could blame others for my problems.  While I am aware that AS isn't quite comparable to the popular topic here, LGBT rights, in that it could legitimately be seen as a disability whereas the latter isn't, let me say that I had to look to myself a bit to improve my condition.  That means that the support groups that existed for me wasn't going out and trying to change the rest of the world, but rather gave me advice on how I could act in a way that would make it easier for me to gain acceptance, all the while not changing who I was.  One of the main things I learned was communication skills, and perhaps the skill that pertains most to this discussion is the "'I' statement".

 

"I" statements are useful in arguments.  Basically, it's our instinct while arguing to say "You did this wrong!"  Yet, that puts people on the defensive, and people aren't willing to change when they're on the defensive.  They will subconsciously determine that their statement was true, that an attack on their actions is therefore an attack on their validity as a human being, and therefore do as much as they can to justify their words and actions in order to protect their pride.  A more efficient way of communicating the same frustration is with a statement such as this: "I felt this way about what you said."  The emphasis then switches to you, humanizes you, and disassociates the perpetrator from their words and actions so that they don't have to see them as part of themselves, but rather as that idea, something more abstract and beyond them.  It's easier to look at things objectively that way.

 

I don't know what else I can add to this discussion.  I'm actually reading a bit about communication and the psychological principles behind it right now (push-pull, the two-track mind, the way we perceive reality, etc).  Perhaps later I can speak with more clarity and create a far more definitive guide on how to communicate such complaints and create true change.

 

24601

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Ugh... I don't have time to read through all this blog drama (I've seen bits and pieces of it), but let me say that I also think xccj has got a bit of a point. There's a lot of all-caps going on that I don't think is necessary.

Yes, people are often wrong. Sometimes obstinately so. But if you just start yelling at anyone who has a hard time letting go of a wrong opinion, you're not going to do anything but drive them away. That shouldn't be the goal here. If after a lot of reasoned explanation, a person still won't see the light, then it can be their decision to walk away, but I think the goal should be correcting wrong or hurtful opinions, not aggressively silencing them.

This doesn't mean that I think everyone should just accept each other's opinions. If you are convinced an opinion is wrong (and I think the pro-equality bloggers here on BZPower are generally correct about this), explain why! Relate to the people you disagree with just how much hurt those opinions have put people through. If someone feels that certain sexualities and gender identities are bad or wrong, perhaps tell them a story of how you or someone close to you might have once felt the same way, but eventually came to realize that was a mistake. I feel like the members here who have shared their own personal stories have spoken to people on a much deeper level than those who just shouted their opinions at others.

I don't see how asking people to be smarter about how to send a message is victim-blaming. But frankly, the world would be a better place if everyone would show some consideration for each other's feelings, even if you disagree with them. That doesn't mean "just let them go on thinking whatever they like", it just means opening your eyes to how others think and how you can most effectively teach them.
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A clarification on the matter of insults - while it is true that calling someone who is behaving in a bigoted manner a bigot is not a false statement, that does not meant that it cannot and is not likely to be taken as an insult, any more than calling someone who displays certain behaviour a lying, self-obsessed attention-seeker with the attention span of a goldfish would not be insulting from their point of view. Whether the accusation is true or not, calling someone a bigot is not going to produce a calm, rational response from them, while more diplomatic language - stating that they are wrong, why they are wrong, and how they are wrong - could lead to a peaceful resolution.

 

Canama, if you truly believe that certain BZP members, like members of the Ku Klux Klan, harrass people, shout demeaning slurs at them in public, burn crosses in their front yards, murder them, and generally comport themselves in a manner that qualifies them as a terrorist organization, I'm going to have to ask for some evidence on that front. If you can provide none, then I will have to conclude that you are not being asked to make peace with the Klan. You're being asked to make peace with your fellow BZP members, and to handle your new duties in a calm, rational manner. If someone who makes an ignorant comment in coming to you to get a better understanding of something automatically triggers the "this person is equivalent to the KKK" response in your mind, then I have some serious concerns.

 

And finally, as for the oft-used line that no one can tell the victims of something how to behave... There is a strong precedent for just that happening, justly and legally. The victim of a robbery does not get to hunt down the robber - that job goes to the police, who know what they are doing and have the authority to do it. It is not unreasonable, I think, for someone who has been offended by something said on BZP to bring it to the attention of Black Six instead of personally seeking retribution.

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Havelock Vetinari
Aug 21 2013 02:22 PM

Alright. It seems evident that many of the people on what I considered "my" side have gone...how to but this politely...

 

I can't. Straight into black and white insanity territory. I'm seeing reasonable, people who could not possibly be homophobic accused of it. This needs to stop. By Yig, there is such a thing as too far.

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Canama, I essentially agree with you, and you pretty much accused me of siding with the KKK.  I just don’t know how to respond to this.  I’m sorry that we don’t see eye to eye, but please keep the discussion civil.

 

Thank you and goodnight.

 

You misread what I typed. I said that asking us to not treat homophobes like bigots is like asking us to not treat a member of the KKK as a bigot. I made no specific accusations towards you or anyone else.

 

That goes to B6, too - I made no specific accusations anywhere in that post.

 

 

 

Canama, if you truly believe that certain BZP members, like members of the Ku Klux Klan, harrass people, shout demeaning slurs at them in public, burn crosses in their front yards, murder them, and generally comport themselves in a manner that qualifies them as a terrorist organization, I'm going to have to ask for some evidence on that front. If you can provide none, then I will have to conclude that you are not being asked to make peace with the Klan. You're being asked to make peace with your fellow BZP members, and to handle your new duties in a calm, rational manner. If someone who makes an ignorant comment in coming to you to get a better understanding of something automatically triggers the "this person is equivalent to the KKK" response in your mind, then I have some serious concerns.

 

The KKK is still around, you know - they don't kill people anymore or do other terrorist stuff (mainly just rallies now), but they are still active as a hate group. I think it's a pretty apt comparison.

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Well, you're asking us to make peace with the Klan.

This, right here, is the problem I'm trying to get at, Canama. You have to understand that, unless they are doing all of the things that make the Klan the Klan, equating people to it is roughly equivalent to calling then Nazis. Unless it is their open and firm stance that you should die for their beliefs, it is not a fair characterization.

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Canama, I essentially agree with you, and you pretty much accused me of siding with the KKK.  I just don’t know how to respond to this.  I’m sorry that we don’t see eye to eye, but please keep the discussion civil.
 
Thank you and goodnight.

 
You misread what I typed. I said that asking us to not treat homophobes like bigots is like asking us to not treat a member of the KKK as a bigot. I made no specific accusations towards you or anyone else.
 
That goes to B6, too - I made no specific accusations anywhere in that post.
 
 

Canama, if you truly believe that certain BZP members, like members of the Ku Klux Klan, harrass people, shout demeaning slurs at them in public, burn crosses in their front yards, murder them, and generally comport themselves in a manner that qualifies them as a terrorist organization, I'm going to have to ask for some evidence on that front. If you can provide none, then I will have to conclude that you are not being asked to make peace with the Klan. You're being asked to make peace with your fellow BZP members, and to handle your new duties in a calm, rational manner. If someone who makes an ignorant comment in coming to you to get a better understanding of something automatically triggers the "this person is equivalent to the KKK" response in your mind, then I have some serious concerns.

 
The KKK is still around, you know - they don't kill people anymore or do other terrorist stuff (mainly just rallies now), but they are still active as a hate group. I think it's a pretty apt comparison.

And I said there's a big difference between an organized group dedicated to hate and people who happen to say misinformed, hurtful things. They do not deserve the same treatment and you should not be comparing them as the same thing. I already asked you to stop that, and if you continue to do so I will take administrative action.
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(I realize not everyone here is a kid that's still learning how things work)

 
pretty much everyone in the whole argument is 14+, and thats just the lowest I'm willing to guess. They're not kids, they're at best teenagers.

That probably still qualifies as "kid." I'm a much better person now than I was when I was 14 (and I think that's true of, oh, probably everyone ever).

But still, I said immediately after that they should be ejected from the internet if they're really being ###### about it. Just stick 'em in a cannon and light the fuse.
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Canama, I'm guessing you haven't been down to certain parts of the South recently. The KKK's public face may just be rallies, but do not take that to mean that they don't still kill people, often in ways the description of which would violate certain of BZP's rules about graphic/disturbing content.

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Here's an analogy that might help with the discussion:

 

A math teacher asks her student what five times five equals. The child tells her, "Twenty-four!" How should the teacher reply?

 

There are two primary ways. 1. "Actually, [insert name here], the answer is 'twenty-five'. But that was really close! You see, just think of it this way: there are five sets of five, so it goes five...ten...fifteen...twenty...twenty-five. And there you go!" 2. "Are you stupid? The answer is 'twenty-five'. Are you literally incapable of functioning at the level of your classmates? They have it figured out, but you can't even figure out a simple times table!"

 

See, education is informing someone about that which he/she does not know, or fixing any twisted or wrong ideas that they may have. Insulting someone, or being harsh, or anything similar, is not educating a person. I am all for educating those that are intolerant, discriminatory, and bigotry. But telling them they are less of a person than you because of their intolerance does not make them any more apt to actually learn something. The same goes for calling someone a bigot, or any similar terms. Even if it is a general, legitimate term that has a legitimate meaning, it is implying a negative idea about someone. Giving someone a negative label, no matter how true it is, does not make the person see the light on anything. Imagine someone calling you a bigot. It's not like it exactly makes people happy. And it's only feeding a fire that's already started. 

 

The best way to stop intolerance on this site is to truly educate people. As many have said, a lot of people are saying things that they don't mean to offend anyone with. If you can just simply tell them what they said was offensive and tell them to be more careful in the future, without sending scary ten-paragraph-long confrontations, maybe they'll actually learn something useful. Just my two cents on this.

 

-Rez

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A clarification on the matter of insults - while it is true that calling someone who is behaving in a bigoted manner a bigot is not a false statement, that does not meant that it cannot and is not likely to be taken as an insult, any more than calling someone who displays certain behaviour a lying, self-obsessed attention-seeker with the attention span of a goldfish would not be insulting from their point of view. Whether the accusation is true or not, calling someone a bigot is not going to produce a calm, rational response from them, while more diplomatic language - stating that they are wrong, why they are wrong, and how they are wrong - could lead to a peaceful resolution



There are some people within the LGBT+ circle who don't necessarily want to sit down and write up another wall of text going into that the person is in the wrong, why they are wrong and how they are wrong. Not everyone likes to try and take out their time to explain these things (again) to, usually, be ignored outright when approaching it in a completely calm and logical manner. Some people would rather say "don't post bigoted things in my blog" and I have a very, very hard time seeing the insult there. It's simply saying "don't post dehumanizing things about people" in a more concise manner, with a term that hasn't degraded into one people use to casually insult one another or demean one another. If someone were to take offense to that statement, then they should take it upon themselves to understand why -- it's their words, their responsibility. If they don't want to come to any sort of understanding, then they simply won't (and will complain how the term "bigot" is offending their sensibilities when it accurately described what they were posting).

Some people just don't want to deal with it, at all. And there's nothing wrong with that -- not everyone in the LGBT+ community has to educate everybody every time they act hurtful on an issue. Not everyone has the patience to, or the stamina, and some might be in fragile situations mentally (e.g: Depression, frustrated easily). But they can say that something posted was bigoted, they can request that type of thing to not be posted in their personal blog and, if it persists, they can (and would, I imagine) get staff involved so the problem's done.

Bigot/Sexist are two terms used to describe those actions and what they're doing. The terms aren't inherently insulting and, if someone does find them insulting, I honestly do feel that it would be a good thing -- they don't want to be seen as a bigot or as sexist: maybe they'll go out of their way to educate themselves more on the subject to understand how to avoid having their posts labeled as such in the future? Maybe they won't, but those who won't likely don't care enough and only want to victimize themselves to make them feel more justified after insulting a large minority of people. (Honestly, every time I've changed someone's mind on the issue, it was because they wanted to know more and have more information and I gladly presented it to them happily -- I really do like it when people try to empathize and understand and learn. I've never changed the mind or stance of someone so stalwart in their beliefs that they still believe they are the paragon of all that is good, while belittling someone else).

They're about as insulting as saying "you're wrong." People don't like to be told that, but when it's true (or when it's applied) they really should look at what they posted and try to figure out why (which is, usually, easy to do). Or, at the very least, ask about it -- what did I say was bigoted? Why? Rather than adamantly sit there and say "nope; I can totally disagree with who you are and that's a valid opinion to have."

And saying that x, y or z is bigoted/sexist brings in examples of what people in the LGBT+/female community (among others) find offensive. It would, hopefully, keep others from saying those things, or barging into blog entries where they aren't wanted to start up a debate. Or barge into a topic and claim all LGBT+ things should be banned from the site and expect no blowback from such a statement (and then begin to use actual, real insults when called out on saying bigoted and hurtful things).

Can they be taken as insults? Yes. Does that make them so? No.

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If it were a matter of posting a warning in a blog that bigoted views are not to be tolerated in it, that would be fine. I encourage that.

 

It's not.

 

Instead, we're dealing with comparisons of BZP members to terrorist organizations - no names were named, but it doesn't take a genius to think up a few examples of who Canama meant. We're dealing with people who, while they don't feel like writing up a wall of text explaining why someone is wrong, are perfectly happy crafting another wall telling them that they're evil. The actions are not being called bigoted, the people are being called bigots and treated to speeches that do plenty to anger but nothing to educate. I have already said why flatly calling someone a bigot insults them - and if you don't believe that term can be insulting, that's fine - you'll find much worse being said on the offsite blogs of members involved in these blog wars.

 

If you don't want to deal with trying to fix it, let the staff deal with it - or, hey, let those who volunteered to be part of a group focused on education and public outreach deal with it. They must have the patience to educate people, since they signed up for it.

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I was purely talking about the one aspect of the conversation I was quoting (the "bigot/bigoted" being an insult or not) as someone brought that up earlier. I've seen those accused of posting bigoted, hurtful things act in a manner as if the term is victimizing them in some fashion and, simply, wished to address that particular point made. There are others far, far more eloquent than myself who I think would do a better job at touching on the rest of things (Princess mentioned wanting to post something earlier on in the entry). 

 

But for me, that's all I wanted to touch on since it was brought up. (That and while I read the blog entry, I only read a few of the comments -- I'm constrained for time, so chose to talk about the one comment that irked me a bit). 

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Ah, thank you for the clarification. I do think that getting defensive about an accusation of bigotry, rather than trying to understand why the accusation is being made and seeing whether the person making it has a point is a counterproductive reaction. My hope with this is that we can figure out a way to bypass that reaction, that impulse to take offense, and get straight to the heart of the matter when dealing with those who have made offensive statements.

 

While bigot is not, by itself, an insult, I am of the opinion that anything that you know is going to be taken as an insult before you say it, and say anyway, is an insult. Experience has shown that things like "I have no problem with homosexuals, but think that homosexuality is a sin" fall into that category by this point as well - anyone who says it on here has to be either oblivious or trying to provoke a reaction. If we are to assume the latter, then the obvious path, I think, is to not react in the desired fashion.

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Here's an analogy that might help with the discussion:

 

A math teacher asks her student what five times five equals. The child tells her, "Twenty-four!" How should the teacher reply?

 

There are two primary ways. 1. "Actually, [insert name here], the answer is 'twenty-five'. But that was really close! You see, just think of it this way: there are five sets of five, so it goes five...ten...fifteen...twenty...twenty-five. And there you go!" 2. "Are you stupid? The answer is 'twenty-five'. Are you literally incapable of functioning at the level of your classmates? They have it figured out, but you can't even figure out a simple times table!"

 

Those are not equivalent scenarios. A child making a simple mistake in mathematics cannot be considered equivalent to hatred, bigotry, and the denial of one's rights to live as an individual. In fact, it's both absurd and insulting.

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It was an analogy for demonstrating the helpfulness of the responses, not for comparing the errors that led to them. Whether the person is bad at math or ignorant and deceived, shouting at them does not educate. Shouting is not public outreach.

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Kevin Owens
Aug 21 2013 09:09 PM

Where is the shouting?  Who is shouting?  I was the only one to get legitimately angry and made an angry post, but I'm guessing in this case nobody read it short of Six and Tilius because they were the only ones to acknowledge it.  Yes we're angry and yes we're upset, but for the most part we've been incredibly civil given what we've been going through and what we've read on this site.

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It is possible that you missed Canama's posts on how not engaging in further blog wars is equivalent to making peace with and legitimizing the Ku Klux Klan, and his reference to xccj and others, such as myself and Alex, who are calling for peace as "oppressors."

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Blog Subtitles

Is that the light at the far end of the tunnel, or just the train.
~ Owl City

Lisztomania, think less but see it grow. Like a riot, like a riot, Oh.
~ Phoenix

I took a sip of something poison but I'll hold on tight.
~ Foster the People

Birds sing for you, you can make this blue sky blush
~ Oh Land

On the other side of the street I knew, stood a girl that looked like you.
I guess that's Déjà vu, but I thought this can't be true
~ Train

But even the sun sets in paradise
~ Maroon 5

Crazy how that shipwreck meant my ship was coming in
~ Train (Again?)

So make now your ally, and leap before you look
~ Nothing's Carved In Stone

I'm just too much a coward to admit when I'm in need.
~ Passion Pit

Just believe in far away, ikiru tame ni sore wa
~ Song Rider

Everything that drowns me makes me want to fly.
~ One Republic

I live my life in shackles, but I'm borderline-free.
~ Tove Styrke

Silver Lake, Mercury Mining, This Mistake, No Silver Lining.
~ Alkaline Trio

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Ha Ha

You scrolled to the bottom.

I now control your mind.

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