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Who gets revived by the red star?


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#1 Offline Kaanfight

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 04:14 PM

Hey guys, I was just wondering, Would it be possible for beings, such as matoro and the makuta, to be revived on the red star? What I mean is that any being whose body is destroyed, could hey be revived and given a new body?


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#2 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 05:54 PM

No there absolutely has to be a body, even with missing limbs in order for the Kestora to repair them.
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#3 Offline Doorman

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 06:36 PM

short answer: anyone who has a body


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#4 Offline Kaanfight

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 08:22 PM

No there absolutely has to be a body, even with missing limbs in order for the Kestora to repair them.

that's too bad, If only we could revive nidihki..... but what if a makuta's armor was saved? could they be revived?


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#5 Offline ToaOfAwesome

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 08:29 PM

I'm not exactly an expert on Bionicle logic and canon or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that they couldn't, as the armor is not really part of a Makuta, just a case. It's like using a birdcage in place of a bird.


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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 09:12 PM

What we know for sure is that there has to be "something to work with", and Matoro and the Makuta are out because they were vaporized.

 

What we don't know is how specific "something" is. IMO it means a brain that's intact enough, but there's some evidence this might not be the case, as with Matoro's earlier revival on the 777 stairs in which he was disintegrated but not vaporized. As far as I know Greg hasn't given a specific answer to this.


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#7 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 10:14 PM

What we know for sure is that there has to be "something to work with", and Matoro and the Makuta are out because they were vaporized. What we don't know is how specific "something" is. IMO it means a brain that's intact enough, but there's some evidence this might not be the case, as with Matoro's earlier revival on the 777 stairs in which he was disintegrated but not vaporized. As far as I know Greg hasn't given a specific answer to this.

I actually think the death on the 777 stairs was not actually a death, instead, it is a trick where the sacrifice is teleported to his current location in a way, but slowed down so that Matoro ceased to exist for several seconds but reformed as a typical teleport would. The Great Beings only intended to test the selflessness of the chosen one and so rigged a fake death scene where Matoro was disintegrated and reformed in a manner similar to teleportation but extremely slowed down. This is apparent in how it was described in the book, where Matoro turned to dust and vanished (the process of breaking down into progressively smaller particles until he was reduced to atoms) and slowly reforming. In essence, that whole sacrifice mechanism was a modified teleporter.Anyways, I don't think disintegrated beings can be revived, only damaged and nonfunctional ones, such as Mavrah, who drowned, or Hydraxon, who was probably stabbed.

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#8 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 10:41 PM

Well, an illusion is possible, but this was discussed in past topics and we concluded that as far as we can tell, based on BS01's direct statement that he was killed, we should at least consider it strong evidence he was. I forget now if Greg ever directly confirmed it, though. There's no indication in the story itself that it might have been an illusion; I checked.


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#9 Offline GallifreyanOrigin

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 11:19 PM

Well, an illusion is possible, but this was discussed in past topics and we concluded that as far as we can tell, based on BS01's direct statement that he was killed, we should at least consider it strong evidence he was. I forget now if Greg ever directly confirmed it, though. There's no indication in the story itself that it might have been an illusion; I checked.

Perhaps he was disintegrated but had has atoms stored and reconstructed? I mean, I think that'd be kinda like death, since disintegration isn't really something you survive.


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#10 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 11:35 PM

No there absolutely has to be a body, even with missing limbs in order for the Kestora to repair them.

that's too bad, If only we could revive nidihki..... but what if a makuta's armor was saved? could they be revived?
No, because the Makuta armor is only a place to "store" the Makuta's antidermis, his real body, so the armor is useless in terms of repairing.

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#11 Offline ToaOfAwesome

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Posted Mar 06 2013 - 06:31 PM

Well, an illusion is possible, but this was discussed in past topics and we concluded that as far as we can tell, based on BS01's direct statement that he was killed, we should at least consider it strong evidence he was. I forget now if Greg ever directly confirmed it, though. There's no indication in the story itself that it might have been an illusion; I checked.

Perhaps he was disintegrated but had has atoms stored and reconstructed? I mean, I think that'd be kinda like death, since disintegration isn't really something you survive.

 

Not sure if somebody already suggested this, or if it's some well-known fact or well known lack of one I should know (there are a few of those for some reason), but wouldn't it be possible that the Ignika somehow had its power linked to the room so Matoro actually was revived? If so, the Ignika could easily revive anybody.

 

Or, just something for thought, what if the Ignika is linked (I wish I hadn't already used that term) to its wearers, even ones that haven't worn it yet, and it knew that Matoro would sacrifice himself and it brought him back to life because it needed him to wear it because it was his destiny or something and so it brought him back to life just so that he could die, this time the right way. Maybe you were supposed to die in that thing and either it was supposed to make sure multiple people came, or the Great Beings just didn't think of that.


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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 06 2013 - 08:33 PM

I still think it's a matter of the brain, but the 777 stairs incident is special circumstances. He was in the chamber already before it killed him, so it may have simply uploaded his consciousness to storage in the moment just before he died (and likely only triggered the kill the moment a safeguard registered him as stored). Then it could just recycle the disintegrated matter to remake his body, complete with blank brain, and re-download his consciousness.

 

That's probably the best interpretation, as reading how it's written I don't get the impression at all that it could be an illusion.

 

I do agree the Ignika was probably tied into it, powering it, but I'm talking about the process of the how, not the what, to be clear. "The Ignika did it" doesn't really help for me because I always wanna know how.

 

 

Probably disintegration under normal circumstances is just as bad as vaporization.


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#13 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 06 2013 - 08:38 PM

You probably know this, but you left it out: Matoro wasn't in the MU at the time, so he couldn't of had anything to do with it. I'm strongly supporting the idea that the Ignika was a big part of the death and quick rebirth of Matoro.
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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 07 2013 - 10:52 AM

You probably know this, but you left it out: Matoro wasn't in the MU at the time, so he couldn't of had anything to do with it. I'm strongly supporting the idea that the Ignika was a big part of the death and quick rebirth of Matoro.

You mean to say he couldn't have been revived with the Red Star, right? Yeah, sorry I was too vague; by "it" I meant, the 777 stairs method of revival (whatever it was), which cannot have been the Red Star. It's relevant only because it would establish that such a thing is possible.

 

Unless of course the theory that the Ignika actually tapped in to the RS is true, but I have no idea what to think about that, other than its "quasi-revival" of Hydraxon may imply it can, as it might have had to reach up to the true revived Hydraxon who's trapped on the RS to get them. :shrugs:

 

Also, though, there's dispute as to what is meant by "in the MU" about being revived on the Red Star. This is not relevant to Matoro because he was revived on-site, but he was surrounded by protodermis that had been part of the MU, and through the stone cord, Mahri Nui, and the surface of the robot Mahri Nui rested on, he was physically connected, indirectly, to the MU. So it seems to me there's strong reason to think that deaths on Voya Nui and Mahri Nui (plus Mata Nui Island) could still be revived, but who knows really. It's only hypothetical for Matoro, but I think there were deaths at these locations. (Turaga Jovan?)


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#15 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 07 2013 - 01:00 PM

I still think it's a matter of the brain, but the 777 stairs incident is special circumstances. He was in the chamber already before it killed him, so it may have simply uploaded his consciousness to storage in the moment just before he died (and likely only triggered the kill the moment a safeguard registered him as stored). Then it could just recycle the disintegrated matter to remake his body, complete with blank brain, and re-download his consciousness. That's probably the best interpretation, as reading how it's written I don't get the impression at all that it could be an illusion. I do agree the Ignika was probably tied into it, powering it, but I'm talking about the process of the how, not the what, to be clear. "The Ignika did it" doesn't really help for me because I always wanna know how.  Probably disintegration under normal circumstances is just as bad as vaporization.

Thinking about this we saw the same thing before didn't we , Takanuva and the Avohkii, the guy was totally destroyed but yet revived, so I guess that system is totally deferent from the star.

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#16 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 07 2013 - 02:21 PM

Well who knows, but his brain might have been intact enough under the rubble if large chunks fell more around it than on it, thus shielding him from the rubble above those. And Greg confirmed the consciousness attaches to masks too, and that was intact. So I should clarify that it's probably "brain or mask intact".

 

I didn't mention that with Matoro 777 because the mask was disintegrated too. :)


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#17 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 07 2013 - 02:40 PM

Maybe the most recent user of he mask "imprints" it, so the mask sort of have a "hard drive" and remembers who uses it, then gets resurrected by it. Like in the same movie, Takutanuva revives Jaller, and his body grows from the mask, and so does Takanuva when Vakama told Jaller and Hahli to "be" "Unity and Duty" while the Avohkii was in "Destiny". Then the Avohkii's power somehow revived Takanuva.
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#18 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 07 2013 - 03:02 PM

Well who knows, but his brain might have been intact enough under the rubble if large chunks fell more around it than on it, thus shielding him from the rubble above those. And Greg confirmed the consciousness attaches to masks too, and that was intact. So I should clarify that it's probably "brain or mask intact". I didn't mention that with Matoro 777 because the mask was disintegrated too. :)

It'd be strange if the mask had the imprint after a few hours, just my opinion.

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#19 Offline Rampant

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Posted Mar 07 2013 - 03:50 PM

Well who knows, but his brain might have been intact enough under the rubble if large chunks fell more around it than on it, thus shielding him from the rubble above those. And Greg confirmed the consciousness attaches to masks too, and that was intact. So I should clarify that it's probably "brain or mask intact". I didn't mention that with Matoro 777 because the mask was disintegrated too. :)

It'd be strange if the mask had the imprint after a few hours, just my opinion.

I would think the mask would imprint immediately...


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#20 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 07 2013 - 06:08 PM

Maybe the most recent user of he mask "imprints" it, so the mask sort of have a "hard drive" and remembers who uses it, then gets resurrected by it.

Yeah, Greg confirmed this back in the day with Jaller's revival. That's why Takutanuva sent the energy into Jaller's mask to revive him. We just don't know if the Red Star is in the habit of teleporting up masks that aren't with the bodies anymore, etc. Like, if the mask gets knocked off, the guy is vaporized, and the mask is intact -- we don't know if the RS does anything in such a case.

 

It'd be strange if the mask had the imprint after a few hours, just my opinion.

Well, that depends on what is strange with the physics of protodermis and what isn't and I don't see how we would have any way to get a sense of that other than what Greg has said. Last I heard, they slowly faded away over at least years, maybe decades to centuries. We know Lhikan's imprint is long gone from Jaller's mask a thousand years later. But this was what he said long before news of the RS, and we don't know if he's changed his mind and retconned that.


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#21 Offline Loganto the Le-Matoran

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Posted Mar 08 2013 - 09:57 PM

Toa tuyet was revived, but trapped! O_O

I mean jovan. hehe, sorry.


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#22 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Mar 09 2013 - 08:54 AM

Toa tuyet was revived, but trapped! O_O

I mean jovan. hehe, sorry.

According to BS01 though, Jovan is still deceased...

 

We need a Q&A session with Greg, because there are far too many unanswered questions regarding the Red Star, like:

 

- Was it common knowledge back in the beginning, when the Red Star was functioning in the first 20,000 years of the Matoran Universe's existence, that people whi die would come back shortly after? If so, when did it cease to be?

- There are multiple instances in the story where burial of bodies is mentioned, how is that explained?

- How long does a body stay after death? We've seen corpses lying around all around the MU.

- What is the fate of Lesovikk's team? BS01 assumed they'd be on the Red Star, but we have no evidence for that, because they died thousands of years before the Red Star ceased to function properly. Did they come back? If they did, why hasn't Lesovikk seen them? If they did but Lesovikk never found them, why didn't he go looking for them, assuming that back then people were arare that the dead can come back. Or we they killed permanently by the Zyglak and so never came back (which is plausible, as some Zyglak carry weapons that disintegrate their targets)?

- What is the fate of Lhikan's team?

- If a body had its head its head severed, would it still be sent to the Red Star? I don't think reviving someone with no head is possible.

- If a body was broken into, say, 10 pieces, would its owner be eligible for revival?

- Does this affect Matoro's sacrifice? If he hadn't died permanently to save the universe, and Mata Nui died, would those who died have been revived by the Red Star? I sincerely hope not. Well, I guess the fact that the Great Beings created the Ignika to save Mata Nui and it was Matoro's destiny to do so prove that everyone would have stayed dead had he failed, but it would be nice to hace confirmation.

- Does the Red Star send MU inhabitants who die outside the MU to it? We need a straight answer on this. If it does, doesn't that mean there's be another Jaller on the Red Star? I saw a answer from Greg in the old Archives that stated he had no plan to send anyone else to the Red Star after Kopaka and pohatu went there, so this would suggest it doesn't work on MU inhabitants outside the MU, but Greg'[s more recent answers have been confusing regarding this.


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#23 Offline Krane

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Posted Mar 09 2013 - 09:17 AM

Well what about the other Makuta? Are they still in the Red Star?


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#24 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 09 2013 - 11:01 AM

The Makuta can never be rivived from the star because they don't have bodies anymore, they are antidermis.
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#25 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 09 2013 - 11:03 AM

The Makuta can never be rivived from the star because they don't have bodies anymore, they are antidermis.

There could be Makuta on the Star but only those who died before the "evolution"

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#26 Offline The_Didact

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Posted Mar 09 2013 - 11:04 AM

Well what about the other Makuta? Are they still in the Red Star?

All Makuta are dead (except for Miserix and the Alternate Teridax), and no, they are not in the Red Star.

The Kestora must have both a body and a "fingerprint" of Makuta's essence (Antidermis) to revive them, and the only way to kill a Makuta is destroying his/her essence... Literally, their evolution condemned them.

 

 

 

The Makuta can never be rivived from the star because they don't have bodies anymore, they are antidermis.

There could be Makuta on the Star but only those who died before the "evolution"

Unless Gorast, Icarax and others killed them so that there were no sign of them (as happened to Icarax in The Final Battle)


Edited by The_Didact, Mar 14 2013 - 12:20 PM.

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#27 Offline PyroLizard Prime

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Posted Mar 14 2013 - 07:43 AM

If they only need a body.... that means.... Lhikan can be revived! His corpse is still on metru nui! Oh fudge, I forgot that Jaller has his mask...


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#28 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 14 2013 - 08:53 AM

If they only need a body.... that means.... Lhikan can be revived! His corpse is still on metru nui! Oh fudge, I forgot that Jaller has his mask...

Lhikan is in the Red Star. His body was teleported there sometime between the Toa Metru going to Mata Nui and when they returned for the rest of the Matoran. And it doesn't matter about the mask. They just need a part of their body to revive them, and a mask technically isn't part of their body.

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#29 Offline DuplexBeGreat

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Posted Mar 14 2013 - 11:26 AM

Yes, I believe that we have confirmation that Lhikan, Botar, and Hydraxon were revived. Iirc, someone asked if Greg could tell us one random person that had been revived, and he gave us three.
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