bonesiii

I would going to say all of it... then again, I suppose it's possible a bit of VN's pre-existing rock might have snapped off with it. I doubt it though, given that the curve of the bay seems consistent as of 2006 story. Here we go with universal negatives again. They are almost always a bad idea. (Notice I didn't say always. ) And where are you getting that math for Mahri Nui's size? It appears to be speculation; I'm not seeing it on the BS01 page. It seems more likely to be a tiny dot in the bay, given the tiny dot size of the volcano itself on the VN map. Cords have a way of being long without requiring much mass. Look up the lengths of our DNA compared to us, or our intestines, if they were to be spread out, for some well-known examples. I don't see how you get an "absolutely no way" from this. (Obviously you mean for the theory the VN mass was recycled; this wouldn't apply to the elemental energies theory.) The cord is portrayed as thin enough (in some images), that it may be reasonably ignored in estimates, depending on how long it is. Here's an image of VN, apparently canon, with cord: http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/f/fb/Promo_Art_Voya_Nui_Anchoring.PNG Now, admittedly it's a bit thick there, but that makes sense for this end. It could taper. An image of the much smaller Mahri Nui indeed shows it as thinner at the bottom: http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/9/9c/MahriNui.png A concept art image of VN, unsure if considered canonically relevant, but seems to have a thinner cord: http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/c/c1/Concept_Art_Voya_Nui_Cross_Section.jpg Another image: http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/8/84/Command_Toa_Mahri_Voya_Nui_Sink.png This is obviously showing it as much thicker, but proportions here are almost certainly not canon. But it also seems to show it as not long at all, so it would balance out to about the same. If thick plus long are combined, your point could become relevant, but if thin plus being as short as shown here are combined, it's basically irrelevant. Since we weren't given definitive numbers (and that would be very unlikely for this sort of detail), I don't see grounds for such confidence that the Cord is a problem, size-wise, for the recycled mass theory. Note: I suspect longer is more accurate than shorter, though, due to the deadly compression effect of the water at Mahri Nui's depth (or rather the deadly difference if you rise too fast as seen with one Matoran). But also thin, just enough to act as an anchor, so the basic idea of a cord being of much less mass than you might think seems valid. Basically, it looks like you're picking numbers from unknowns to make worst-case scenario. That doesn't disprove the theory because those numbers are non-canon (far as I know). It would only disprove the version of the scenario you described. Keep in mind I said that Greg seems to have declined the energy blast theory, so we're beating a dead horse here. But for sake of analysis, there's more apparently unwarranted certainty in here. How do you know it would destroy those things? The logic applied to a gun would apparently say that because a strong force of gunpowder exploding propels a bullet, that force by itself must be extremely destructive (without the bullet), so the blast itself should, for example, destroy a target a few feet away. But that isn't how we observe physics working in this world (you could appeal to fictional physics to justify it but now you're piling unknowns on that aren't even seen in Bionicle; we only appeal to Bionicle physics to explain what we DO see there); we see the explosion's kinetic force being largely transferred to the bullet, which does the majority of the damage.

It would be possible. Just have the virus have a randomizer between the number of options. The results would tend toward tribes of roughly equal numbers, all given both color and element. But I don't know that your idea is impossible either, and I'd obviously assumed it earlier. But here's another way to test the statement that colors aren't associated with non-Matoran beings by elemental focus -- the DH list has a good selection of non-Matoran beings, and powers defined, so let's run through it real quick and see if we see some examples. First obvious candidate, Amphibax, said to be aquatic. Has a bit of blue. Darkness... questionable whether he counts. No elemental powers or clear association by species, but somebody did obviously think of the idea in the nickname, and has some black. Eliminator -- black and purple, has a Shadow-related power. Firedracax -- doesn't count; was a Ta-Matoran... Vanisher -- black and purple, but no Shadow relation (not counting his job's name). Adds a caution to Eliminator, but since they're different species, this is not clear evidence against the color scheme having meaning in Eliminator's case (or others like Amphibax). Seeker... unclear... tool has a seismic power, related to rock, and he has brown. Appears to not be an innate power, but a cultural association could be here. Shadow Stealer -- debatable, but having white, the main color of light (and ice but that's irrelevant here), and "stealing shadows" could be a connection. Tyrant -- red, and powers of absorbing and emitting heat. Guardian -- unclear; red and purple, has a tool with Earth and Stone powers. Purple might connect to Earth. Red doesn't really connect to Stone though. Silence -- this was quite possibly a coincidence (I think the color for Sonics was chosen later), but he's all grayscale, and has a sound-related power. And his color might be part of Roodaka's mutating his "appearance". The power itself is stated to be natural. So, there's some that definitely look to be color-associated, that as far as I know are of non-Matoran species. Enough to fit a pattern of some species having color associations, others not. And with Eliminator we have more strong evidence akin to the Shadow Kraata, this time with an actual Shadow power.

I think the topic starter is talking about more obscure or trivial ones that wouldn't likely be used for the misconceptions project.

The acid issue aside, pretty sure the topic starter meant MU elements, since obviously there wouldn't be Matoran of non-MU elements. So Sand wouldn't count. T1, that's a good point about the Skakdi, but your statement was a universal negative, and those are usually unreliable. Has Greg said no species of the protodermic beings other than Matoran have colors going with elemental associations? And there's also the Agori, who the GBs would obviously know about. Their elemental associations seem to be more tradition and cultural identity than anything connected with powers (at least per se; there's some question about that, but long story you probably know heh). And if you're counting Matoran elemental traits as "powers", how do you know the Kestora aren't given such a thing? My point, though, was simply that the idea could have inspired the color scheme. Nothing else is required for this but an association between that color and the idea of Shadow. Powers or no powers is irrelevant, unless it can be shown that the Great Beings had some sort of absolute rule against that sort of thing. (And I don't know that we can absolutely rule out actual powers, but that's just going off memory.)

The name doesn't absolutely prove an idea connection, but it's certainly strong evidence. In some, but in others it does (Skakdi for example), and whether it does in Kestora or not is the question the topic is asking about. I doubt the story team planned this, but it could work in the version I gave, methinks. And their being inspired by the idea of Shadow Matoran doesn't require elemental powers; it could be similar to the "Shadow" association of Shadow Kraata, and the color purple there.

For purposes of the inspiration version of the theory I mentioned, all that's needed is the idea of a connection between "Shadow" and purple here. (The idea being in the Great Beings' minds.) Note too that having purple and black be Gravity's colors (and purple occasionally also going with Earth) does also show an idea-connection, as black is literally the color of shadow. This isn't really relevant, as all the colors are associated with essentially (mostly) random powers on the Kraata and Rahkshi color charts. (And purple is also associated with Adaptation, Accuracy, and Mind Reading. Rahi Control if you count Magenta.) But the Shadow Matoran, being the top level for all Kraata of any power, shows a connection that doesn't appear random.

Literally? Methinks no. However, it's possible the concept was part of the inspiration for them. We've discussed in past topics how having a small number of highly powerful Shadow beings, the Makuta, seems to have been used as the replacement for the concept of Shadow Matoran/Toa/Turaga. It may be that the Great Beings saw the Makuta as the Toa replacement, and Kestora as the Matoran replacement. If so, we wouldn't expect to see them calling the Kestora Kra-Matoran, but there could still be a loose connection. Edit: Purple is used for Shadow in many franchises outside Bionicle, and Gen 2 Makuta even uses purple in his color scheme. Gen 1 canon doesn't feature this association, as far as I recall, though. But I read the topic starter as speaking generally rather than in Bionicle canon per se. Edit 2: Actually, come to think of it: http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/b/b1/Shadow_Kraata.PNG

This topic has been reported as including a set side as much as a story side, and it's a good point, so moving to Bionicle Discussion...

Three basic things -- Makuta (timing for the Plan, evidently), the Toa's not having been summoned to the island (by Takua as it happened) until a thousand years after moving there, and the fact that the Turaga did not yet trust the Toa (since they probably thought Makuta was defeated in 01, but they didn't want to tell them about Metru Nui yet). They probably also thought the prophecy of the seventh Toa must be fulfilled first.

I think Greg's seeing the Toa Mangai as basically a somewhat average team, important more for the mission they took and the location that made them end up staying at. Even if elite Toa can occasionally have that, it might fit a Toa Hagah better than a Toa of Metru Nui.

I've seen this brought up before, and I STILL think it's a bit silly. Do we have any reason to think the Boxor are even painted? Isn't it just as possible that Bohrok have some kind of colored paint or coating that Nuparu and co. just scraped off before or after building the Boxor? Not to mention that they were underground. Why couldn't they just use minerals as pigments and water/oil/protodermis as a base? All of those things can be found underground, and pigments sourced from the earth can be used to create every color of the rainbow. I highly doubt they were taking time to apply pigment of any sort. Either the color is just to make the sets look cooler (from at least the set designers' POV), or there were parts of those colors in the interiors of Bohrok, methinks.

Toa canisters have an intangibility power.

I agree -- but still, did he know they were kicking around the idea, versus being dead-set against it? Or did he know they were definitely planning to bring it back? That quote isn't crystal clear about it. The idea that it was a lie certainly seems best evidenced, though.

Hm. Well, that makes "not a lie" even harder to see. Not knowing for sure it would happen doesn't get him off the hook as "planning" doesn't require that. So... do we know for sure they had "planned to bring it back" at that point? Or was it just something they were kicking around as a possibility?

I wouldn't rule out something natural for the poles, actually. The rest (other than the gravity issue) was probably all solved by Mata Nui's powers, both during the Shattering and Reforming. The gravity issue was something I'd theorized about that something (probably a side effect of having EP in the core) dampened gravity over Earth levels, and if the moons were larger than Earth (as canon art requires), this would make gravity the same on all three, and the total as SM. Unfortunately somebody decided to throw a brief version of this at Greg and he didn't seem to understand the issue and turned it down, saying the gravity IS higher. So... that leaves the canon ironically apparently in some kind of real-world-like scenario where basically how it must "actually" be is not ever how it's portrayed in-story; everything must seem much heavier. And SM as one (and BaraM pretty much) would have crushing gravity, making pretty much the whole story fail lol. There's no clear resolution of that now; we just sort of have to pretend something like my old theory is the case anyways, or live with the gravitational contradiction. Of course, in real life, nothing that we know of could absorb gravity anyways, so a real life SM would just not work anyways. However, much of that could just be solved by having all the relevant things actually be much smaller than the canon sizes. (And we don't have actual math for the megaplanet, just that it's larger than Earth.)

It is a rule. The fact that no mind existed that could pull it off was how the rule was followed with the Vahi.

This is why I've kept reminding people that asking for fan input does not have to be "you guys decide it". That goes two ways -- it means treating a poll-winning option as a shoe-in isn't warranted, as the author can and should reserve the right to consider issues with the winner, and ultimately go with whatever seems best, even if it isn't what was chosen. It also doesn't mean he's just outsourcing the work to us. Input is just that, input. I get what you're saying, but my point is, you can avoid that frustration if you always keep such polls in context as asking for fan input, and the poll format simply helps make the more common answers easier to weigh mathematically. Don't confuse them for votes in the sense of a contest or an election in which there is a "contract" with voters that the majority winner is in. Even though it's in a similar format to those things, it's still just asking for input and advice. It's up to the author to decide whether the advice is to be incorporated as suggested, modified and incorporated, or not incorporated at all. Or shorter answer: Remember to see these polls as more preliminary in the process of fan-collaborative improving of canon, rather than the "final answers." They're useful tools, and it wouldn't be wise to not use them for their helpful qualities just because not every issue is always caught before they start.

Thanks. Here's the quote: I knew in spring 2013, but as a LEGO employee, I certainly could not discuss it in fall of 2013 - if I had leaked the news or even said I couldn't comment on it, which would have certainly implied that something was going on, I could have been fired. Asking a LEGO employee questions about future product plans is basically not a good idea, because we can't give honest answers. We're not allowed to give out that information. Notice he doesn't admit that he lied, but he does seem to imply it. Sounds like the original quote was in that interview. I'm pretty sure this is the interview I heard, and I don't recall the quote. And I question whether "I don't know" is a lie, considering early plans could be indefinite, and even if they're planned as definite, things could change. He does say "we can't give honest answers", but I'm not sure if this means a lie or a clever answer. But at least it looks like now we know where to go to track down the original quote... I don't have time to listen through that interview again, though, if it's the long one I'm recalling. And now, headaches that may open up aside, we must ask if this helps your case here. Even if he felt that his bosses would require him to lie about a future LEGO line coming or not coming, is that the same as lying (or the new story team lying and his just passing it on) about a detail about this line once it's public? I don't think so, but I'd be interested to hear a case. Basically, is there any reason they would have to lie about this being "not a continuation"? Yes, I'm clear on all that. But as I said, even if he doesn't know that it's a continuation and it is, letting him off the hook, if they know it is and said it isn't, then we still have a lying problem. This just means a different person besides Greg lied (or people), if your interpretation is correct. I know, but the issue is coming up here, regardless of your intent. And I did say earlier that Greg would not necessarily have lied in this case. Still, you brought up the example of a past alleged lie, so yeah. And it isn't about "Greg being a liar" per se, but the fact that (at least outside this example? maybe? remains to be seen IMO but just for sake of analysis) he's proven himself reliable; when he words something as certain, it has always turned out to be the case. It's not that one lie would overturn all that per se, but that all of that makes the chances that this is a lie very unlikely, yanno? Now again, this doesn't mean the new story team will be so reliable, but I certainly hope they will be. Admittedly, it's possible he misremembered their wording, and "not a continuation" may be his wording and not theirs. I dunno. I agree with all of this. Hence my not closing the topic. (Among other reasons mentioned.) I think we just have to agree on the unlikeliness as the main point. Yeah, I wouldn't totally rule this out either, but since it's so unlikely, and the common understanding is so strongly evidenced, I think we're also pretty justified in this case in taking the common understanding of it as not the G1 universe as "almost certainly the case." Keep in mind an alternate universe can be a link, or one in which some minor crossover event occurs. So even if they are said at any point to be linked, that doesn't say much... and doesn't mean they're the same universe. (I don't think you meant to say it does, but just for the record. ) BTW, two things about posting quotes from sources like Greg. First, you can link directly to the posts on LMB from that options button on each post. Second, I prefer that posts in S&T quote the statements in the post, in case there would in the future be a problem with the LMB (or other source sites) removing access to it, so the statements are in multiple places and more likely to be preserved. Here's that quote: You would need to ask someone from the new BIONICLE story team this question, cause I don't know the answer. Incidentally, I'd add this as evidence against it being the same universe. You'd think something that basic would have been brought up in their discussions with Greg. (Of course, here's where the theory that when Greg says he doesn't know something he's lying comes in... but still... given his track record, and I'm not seeing a necessarily clear motive for hiding the answer here, I'm inclined to suspect not, strongly. )

I'm fine with a tiebreaker poll being started based on this. Icarus, not sure if you were serious, but it would be unreasonable to expect Greg to remember all masks that are off-limits off the top of his head. That isn't rude, just an understandable oversight.

Very soft, yes. But I wouldn't really use the term for it. It was LEGO and/or Greg that called it a reboot, and that choice of wording has caused confusion since. And plotwise it only really came up because Mata Nui would be landing there and taking over the prototype giant (which was even foreshadowed right away due to the map showing the pieces of that), which was the natural storyline progression from 2008's end, and Bionicle had had changes of location naturally in its past years. So it was just new planet instead of new island, basically. Different, but not enough to where I would prefer the term reboot be involved.

I think stating this confidently is going too far. Warp removes some of the issues, but relies on unknowns, which may very well break other laws of physics. And it doesn't really matter for Bionicle (G1 anyways); the super-long lifespans already imply a story that is avoiding the issue of FTL. So IMO Greg's turning it down does make sense, even if I'd call it optional. But for a real-life thing, whether it's completely plausible is unknown, and probably a no. (But that goes for a lot of answers here too, don't get me wrong. Like I mentioned with my intangibility answer; only parts of that are plausible, and other parts still seem impossible in the real world as far as we know.) Shattering/reforming: There's been topics about it before, and I've commented on parts of it. I don't feel like trying to be thorough on it right now, but I'll try a little. First, the original explosion of course relies on a fictional substance, but the idea of a core made of explosive material for unknown reasons isn't impossible. If you take that as a given, there's a lot of other things that would have to be just right for it to work. In my retelling (although I forget if I've actually mentioned it in-story) I establish that something about the rotation of the planet related to its poles weakens rock there in a conelike pattern (explaining the symmetry), although that seems unlikely in real life. If you take that as a second given, though, and if the explosion was gradual enough (similar to a point I raised in that Voya Nui topic open right now), it's possible that force could go out through those two weaknesses and the pieces could fly out gently enough but accelerate through sustained force over time, and reach escape velocity. The rest gets shakier. Gravitational warping of the pieces would not likely be gentle enough for anybody to survive. However, I solve this with Mata Nui exerting a power over it for a while (basically kinetic dampening... which would probably not be possible in real life). Stable orbits from vertical blasts are questionable but possible if they both had a roughly equal weight deviation. The need for a long period of stabilizing before merging is possible has been one of the toughest to explain, but I think somebody suggested that the inhabited side of Bota Magna had to fuse metamorphically (or maybe even volcanically?) before it could re-enter without breaking into smaller pieces. (And the smaller pieces problem would be an issue for Bara Magna inhabitants with both moons.) The weird shaped dust cloud is difficult, but possibly something like a radically tilted magnetic field of Bara as a result of the Shattering would explain the pinches in it. The reforming is basically impossible without a really powerful power.

Guys, please be respectful. Both Regit and Xelphene's latest few posts have been a bit combative. FTR, Xelphene, Regit's logic does seem pretty sound, so I'm really not sure what your posts are trying to drive at. It seems we all agree that what Greg told us is true -- that he was consulted by the new team, so knows what he's talking about when he says it isn't a continuation. I don't see how that helps your case... And I thought this was the topic where I asked for the TTV quote about Greg allegedly lying. Did that get lost? I'd really like to know the answer to that. I feel I should clarify that point, BTW, because you said "few would mind" if he lied there. I should have made this clearer -- the issue isn't about numbers of people or minding, but that if Greg feels it's valid to lie about what's the case in canon, what else did he lie about? His answers would then all become mere suggestions instead of what's canon. Now, some might even not care about that, as a few don't seem to like the idea of canon anyways. But again, minding isn't the issue, it's confusion. You're actually giving us an example here, apparently. A definitive quote was provided, that would seem to debunk your theory. In the old days I might even be closing the topic because of that, but as there were more details to discuss for clarification and it's true that it is, this time, an indirect source, so not quite as absolute as if the new story team had said it. Anyways, point is, you seem to be attempting, or did earlier, to say that the quote cannot be relied on by virtue of Greg allegedly having lied. Well, this is a good example of what people would do on anything where Greg gave an answer and why it should be bad. So... figuring this case out should be top priority in this topic. Please inform. A few nitpicks: I cited several in my first post. You did give a plausible way to wiggle out of it for the masks, but the rest appears to stand. And I wasn't even trying to make a complete list (I second Archon's post up there BTW). This statement confused me. Why would it? If this is the far future, couldn't Mata Nui's role change due to unknown events? More to the point, your theory even revived a confirmed-permanently-dead character who is a mask maker (Makuta) here, so it seems to me that by the same logic the theory is already sunk. (I'm just not sure the logic works anyways. The whole idea of your theory is to find explanations that make any of these things work despite their appearances, and I'd think Mata Nui is easier to explain than Makuta...) Hopefully you see from above why your tone here is inadviseable. That aside, there's nothing wrong with somebody else agreeing that the issues I or others raised are issues, without making that the main point of their responses. (Regit's tone could have been a bit gentler too, though.) I felt your response to me directly was respectful, though, so that's good. However, I'm not sure anything but the masks thing has really been answered. A few of the others have been tempered somewhat but I think on the whole they stand. I bring it up because of your above wording of "no direct contradiction" which I thought my post did point out several of. I can't help but wonder if you thought none of my points stand, in that wording. I'm probably reading too much into word choice, though.

Yes, but as I said, nobody knew know there was such a big thing to compare them to at the time, in the story, in 2001, so those saying "they looked like nanotech even then" are obviously relying on hindsight. You can't invoke this comparison to defend that claim, by definition. (Not sure if you were, or if you were just confused as to what was being discussed, but there ya go.) This is off-topic, but yes. However, it's sapience. (Full sapience.) See here.

Well, can you provide the TTV quote, then? They have been found making errors before, but curious anyways. And anybody who follows Greg answers knows that "I can't tell you" is the standard answer no matter what for such things, and it would NOT be possible to read anything into it. (Besides, only somebody's bias toward an answer could make them think that no answer hints toward that side. Somebody wanting to read the opposite in could just take it as hinting the opposite. ) Ballom, I agree with you it's futile to argue that it's a continuation, but the second half of your question seems to miss what's been discussed in the topic about how 2008 was called a "reboot", etc. It is actually reasonable to need a bit more... but we do have that more, so yeah.

Yes, but only if there was hollowing out going on well prior to the GC; otherwise it would sink at first. I think it's clear there's at least a lot of airtight caves in there, and possibly it's mostly made of a rock like pumice. Or the Ignika may have done something to make it float. ?? Sure it does. I don't know why you'd say that. I didn't understand this sentence. Could you clarify? The idea that VN is of a material like pumice (whether naturally or something the Ignika did) would explain this nicely. Bubbles in the rock (or the majority of the rock) would "boil" out when the volcano eats at it, and the resulting lava on Mahri Nui would be more dense. Explaining why it later sank. But MahriN is smaller anyways, so however it works, there's plenty of space for its mass to be from VN. I'm not saying it is; there may indeed be elemental energy sources at work, but it could plausibly be.