bonesiii

What about them? You mean the flying ones in the Mistika line? Yeah, they would not work well in real life, since they have no wings or downward facing propellers. I suppose they could have a form of electromagnetic levitation, but it would only be able to work above metal. It was a joke about how in real life teleportation would be extremely dangerous -- if you wanna get somewhere here, try a vehicle instead. Much safer. Had nothing to do with Bionicle vehicles, but not a bad idea to investigate them too here. Also, unsure why you would single out the Mistika vehicles as what I meant there. But regardless, yeah, those ones seemed to have some sort of antigravity. Which so far as we know isn't actually possible in real life. Also, for maglev, you need something much more complex than just metal, but short on time to describe it (and I have a specific mechanism for one of my non-Bionicle scifi stories I'd rather not spoil so yeah ). Greg said he doesn't. I'd originally assumed he does for my retelling and have to keep editing (as I chose to stick to this one, not that I would have to, but yeah) everywhere I see it in the draft now lol. But actually, 100,000 years is plenty of time for his purposes. FLT would be cool, but also overkill. He just needed to study enough megaplanets to have a good sense of how to reform SM. At speeds up to half lightspeed, you can get to most near stars fairly quickly, and if the Bionicle universe has basically a megaplanet orbiting every star (or every other star, etc.) he could visit quite a lot. Add to that that Greg said there's multiple inhabited planets in the Solis Magna system alone. "Totally plausible" and "FTL" don't really belong in the same sentence, at least not in a "real life" focused discussion. Fictional stories may freely imagine an alternate reality in which it's possible, and sci-fi may even predict unknown future discoveries in this one that might enable it (perhaps something below the level of quantum mechanics which we don't currently understand). But in this world, as far as we know currently, it isn't plausible. So, it's probably a good thing the giant robot doesn't have it, although given the wacky powers already seen inside it, it probably could have if they'd wanted it to. I'm not sure why we're talking about Mata Nui "using a telescope". He was landing on this planets, in their oceans, and disguising his face with the camouflage island. Undoubtedly his sensors have zoom features, though, and I'm sure he would have to scan systems before committing to the trip each time.

I think you would need to show some evidence for this unusual idea. To be fair, one BZP member once used the term this way. But that's a fan and it was an abnormal definition. In every other topic I've seen, everybody takes "continuation" to refer to any future story in the same universe. Especially because Greg himself had publicly suggested the idea of a far future continuation as a reboot. By saying "not a continuation", he is clearly saying "it's not that kind of reboot I once suggested; it's a real reboot." Otherwise, again, if he wanted to be ambiguous, all he had to do is leave off that "not a continuation" phrase. I'm glad you admit your interpretation is unlikely, though. I'm guessing you haven't spent a lot of time following Greg's answers over the years? Clearly he would just say "I can't discuss the nature of the Great Spirit." This is apparently a false dichotomy where you think he can only either answer yes or no -- no, he can (and often did) just not answer. And yes, of course we would mind that he lied. It would make every other answer suspect. Exact quote, please? Otherwise, this is hearsay. Please be aware that at one point LEGO did not have plans for a return so far as employees were told. Did he say it would never return? Or are you exaggerating what he said? Please note this would not be the first time somebody misinterpreted one of his clever answers as a lie. In every case so far, when it was examined (rather than paraphrased as hearsay), the claim fell apart. So claims that Greg has lied have a horrible track record... you'll pardon my skepticism.

Not sure where you're going with this as I read, but it's Toa Energy, not anything about it being a mask (any object can be charged with Toa Energy to act like a Toa Stone; the Mask of Light was simply the object that did in this case, chosen for its thematic value). *reads on* I guess you're just elaborating on the idea that it's possible Noble Masks weaken Toa power. If no mask does indeed weaken power (versus mental issues alone... which almost seems irrelevant if it does the same thing but still a point I'm curious about, heh), then I agree this is possible, but it's also possible, and appears more likely, that the weakening thing is about the consciousness side of what all masks do equally, and unrelated to mask powers. Just one point I'd like to make quickly (shortontime) about the elemental masks -- which is that we know this from the website stating it, not just in-story. So, thinking about it, this would again require Gen 2 canon sources to be lying to us. I sincerely hope they don't do that, as that would open the door up to gobs of confusions from here on out. It was a great thing that no matter how clever Greg got with his answers, he didn't lie. I highly doubt the new story team is going to start doing that. I only don't reject it outright because unlike Greg we have no history with the new team yet. But I don't consider this a possibility to take seriously at all. And... sorry, outta time. Will catch up if needed later.

It wouldn't make a lot of storyline sense, if (as a poll I did showed has the strongest support) they don't recycle the giant robot. That worked in large part because it was a surprise, but the secret's out now. I think people want Gen 2 to go another route. So, if they can come up with some other reason, I guess. But it would have to be pretty well changed from the original reason, far as I can think offhand anyways. What? Where have you seen such a consensus? I think we're all expecting them to recycle some other things, since they have done so for the Toa and Makuta. That's what reimaginings generall do. I don't see how that's a disservice. Was this sarcasm? It probably was. If so, pardon for the density.

Thanks, Xelphene. That does help. Two cautions, though: 1) The Helryx quote doesn't define "strength" (unless it's in the context?). 2) And it should be kept in mind that the first quote is from a Hapka book, so it may need independent confirmation, as Hapka did some non-canon things. (And some canon things, but we know about those mainly from Greg confirming them.) Did Greg anywhere actually confirm or deny this? 'Cuz I can't help but wonder why the BS01 page doesn't say it (though maybe a different page does... this was the Kanohi page FTR). Usually things that were non-canon are kept out of those pages, so that's one possible reason it doesn't. Either way, your theory works under that interpretation, whether it was G1-canon or not, yes. (Well, that part of it. ) However, I think the point about dizziness stands still. And keep in mind this does not prove that G2 is using the G1 system, even if the G1 system could be interpreted this way. Let's face it, that's a really convoluted way to get the same effect as the G2 masks actually being "what it says on the tin". So... actually I'd say you end up with the same problem I mentioned about Makuta... it ends up being so convenient as to be suspect. Combined with all the other evidence of the repeated, reimagining-style patterns, and everything else I mentioned, I'd say "G2 is a different universe" is still far, far more likely. Short answer: It beggars belief to think LEGO will want to explain this kind of complexity to the G2 audience. Much simpler to just have them wearing elemental masks (whichever universe it is). Well, it should, actually. If you can't focus the power, you won't make effective walls, for example. Your power might "miss" a little, or you might sense it about to and cut it off, and wait until you sense it focusing somewhat more, randomly. But Greg may have decided there wasn't space to get into that there. Or maybe the Toa Mata had already been trained in power usage without tools (as they can focus just through hands, but it takes practice), by Hydraxon, and retained the "muscle" memory. I'm confused why you're wording it that way. That doesn't follow; the Kopaka quote describes by implication the problem he would have (lack of focus... this, plus some Greg quotes clarifying it, inspired the title of my first Paracosmos fanfic, The Sword is But the Focus, in which Kopaka loses his sword). Interesting question. I would have to say no. The limits we're talking about seem to be the Toa's version of what Matoran experience when they lose masks (which for them is a coma), and this effect is stopped by wearing powerless masks (and wearing powered ones makes no difference with Matoran). It's possible for Toa it's different, but Greg would have had opportunities to invoke it; he has said Toa don't use Noble mask powers much because their powers are weaker. If he could have added that the elemental powers are lessened to, I suspect he would have, at some point. (Of course, maybe he did, but not as far as I recall.) On the other hand, he does opt for brevity a lot. Still...

Thanks for the quotes, T1S, although maxim's point makes sense up there. (But doesn't fit Pohatu's wording. Actually it's weird they don't mention difficulty due to the lack of tool focus. Maybe Greg forgot about that then??) I don't think it is. It was suggested it might be, but the logic doesn't seem to hold up, unless you have an alternate interpretation? This theory is that G2 is a continuation of G1. Greg and the new story team agree it isn't. Where's the room for interpretation here, exactly? And saying they might be lying isn't really an interpretation, since the words of the lie still literally mean what it appears, they just wouldn't be true. And we have no basis for such a conspiracy theory.

Maybe I forgot to mention it earlier, maybe you missed it, but my idea answers that; it simply uses material from the interior of the island, hollowing it out over time. Or... elemental energy perhaps (since the island would only have so much mass to eat, but over 1000 years that should probably be okay).

If so, BS01's Kanohi page needs an edit. Are you 100% sure those things aren't just poor usage due to mental problems? That would, after all, get in the way.

I agree Mukau is better, but I'm not following the logic that says "Jaa" is similar? Mukau is a pun on "Moo, cow". How is Jaa comparable to that? It's just a different style from English words. Tiribomba... kinda yeah. Though that's more "cool" than "silly." Cool silly. Mukau... eh not really. I see why they did that, problem is their replacement makes zero sense. (Why would you name a cow after the Great Spirit, exactly?) The real solution for Mukau is much simpler: Embrace da silly!!!!1!!

Okay. That can work, but I don't think it quite works canonically. Not wearing a mask doesn't lessen elemental ability, as far as I know. BS01 says: I'm pretty sure "weak" here means physically and mentally so, rather than their power being less. Admittedly, this gives them a reason to still use the masks, but wouldn't it be more of a "Mask of not feeling dizzy"? So... to make that idea work I think you once again have to retcon things. I suppose there could be some kind of "things changed in the future" way to explain it away... but we're getting on pretty shaky ground there. Well, if the above Gen 1 rule applies in Gen 2, there's an obvious reason. Plus, if they are indeed elemental masks that grant them their powers, they still make sense to use for a while -- the fact that they'll be "discarded" (or stored as a backup probably) is irrelevant to the here and now before they've gotten the golden masks. They still need something to boost (or supply) their power before that, in order to even get that far. (Possibly/probably. ) And keep in mind Gen 1 did the same sort of thing; the original masks were "discarded" (in the interpretation that ended up being canon, used to unlock the golden masks), but necessary to earn the replacements. I'd think it would be confusing to have elemental masks (gold masks in your theory here) being in the same shape as the Gen1-powered masks, even though both colors of each Gen 2 mask is already in a modified shape from the Gen 1 original shapes. Not that Gen 1 masks couldn't have different shapes, but it's confusing under your theory. The way it appears is much less confusing -- they're elemental masks, so the shape differences help you tell the difference, but also resemble their original faces because that's what fans expect to see as those characters' faces. And Gold is a powerup. (Of some sort.)

Yeah, either of those ideas would work.

Folks, "nanotech" was a metaphor. They were only "nano" compared to the giant (who was a metaphor of a human with cancer in terms of where the inspiration for it came from) -- and since we didn't know there was a giant back then, no, they didn't look nano. (And because of that, what "nanotech to a giant robot" looks like is... a normal human. Did they look normal human sized? Yes, but that's hardly any major accomplishment. ) I suppose you might have made the connection to a small degree from their being LEGO sets, so we're used to seeing them as smaller than us, though.

Maybe he wanted to test it far away from any observers, in case he'd forged it wrong? It would be bad strategy to walk up and declare he'd made an illegal mask, then put it on and find out it doesn't even work. Better to test it first, THEN do that, and if they try to stop him, use the mask to defend himself (or maybe try to conquer... not sure if he was that far gone yet at the time though). But he messed up the other way -- underestimating how powerful it was. Problem is Ekimu seems to get onscene pretty quickly, so maybe this doesn't work. I dunno.

I don't think it is. It sounds like the sort of language of somebody denying that it's set in the same universe in the future. He didn't have to add the "not a continuation" part, if we wanted to do that; he could have just said it's a reboot. And I don't know if he was paraphrasing them or what, but if they said it isn't, and it is, all this does is change who lied. They do, and Gen 1 did (canisters arrive on an island needing help = Voya Nui, or simply the existence in BTW the same year of two bad guy characters who are clouds of green gas, heh), but so many and so blatant, no. That's why I didn't say it's about certain elements repeating, but a pervasive, encompassing pattern, just like many other reimaginings in other story franchises. (And at least one clear alternate timeline reboot in the case of Star Trek.) I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but it sounds like you're thinking they would simply fail to activate mask powers at all because they're trying the wrong type (similar to LoMN?). But if masks don't work for them, why would so much emphasis be placed on confidence that collecting the Golden Masks is a good idea? Rather than figuring these out? I'd expect something like "we tried to use our elemental masks, but they didn't seem to work. So we hoped these Golden Masks would work. But we fear they, too, may fail for us." Instead it seems more like "you have these elemental masks, and yes, you're using them, but you need these even more powerful ones!" There's no hint of doubt so far that the masks don't do what it says on the tin. I... see... Okay. Yeah, that wouldn't be even close to the right word to convey that. But thanks for clarifying. I suspected so. Problem is this is a fictional universe (both as the separate G2 universe we've been led to believe it is, and if it is really the G1 universe), so both how things work, and what the meaning of the term "translated" as "astrology" is, need not be like our world. It seems clear there is something systematic that applies "magic" in a wider realm-based sense in G2 (such as "elemental forces of the island" being apparently harnessed to make elemental masks), and there's no real reason in such a world that planets aligning couldn't be given meaning to certain events, especially with a "Temple of Time" being involved.

No, it isn't creepy. It's crawly. Or... worm... y...

Sorry but I don't think this flies. There's a few really good reasons to think this is definitely a reimagining: -The blatant repetition of certain key themes from 2001 (but thankfully not looking like the same story repeated) -- Toa shot from space, having lost their memories, six elder figures, villain named Makuta, lone tropical island with six elemental regions, mask searches, etc. It is a serious stretch to think all these things would be repeated so obviously if this was a far-future thing set in the same universe. -This Greg quote: Emphasis mine. (You're correct that "reboot" can mean a type of continuation and the term was used in 2008 as such, as Greg had also suggested the possibility, which I supported, of a far-future continuation. However, this quote makes it clear LEGO isn't using the term that way this time.) -That Generation 1 already clearly opened the door for this with the alternate universe explorations in which alternate versions of events but with familiar names used in different ways (Toa, Makuta, etc.) were encountered. Gen 2 easily fits this pattern, with no need to try to force it into the same universe. To some of your details (as you wrote so much and there's limits on quote tags, I'll use quote marks instead, and bullet points): -First, on the plus side I applaud your not doing the cliche thing and relying on the Vahi to connect the two generations. You do mention it but it seems to be a side detail of your theory. Your theory is at least a little more plausible than the typical attempts. -And this is actually not an entirely bad idea, but as a fanfic. In order to make it work you'd have to ignore several things about Gen 1 canon (as I'll get into in following points), so it can't work officially. (Without some retcons anyways.) "My first point regards the Golden Skinned Being (GSB) from G1, and how its golden colouration and powers of control are similar to G2's "Makuta"." The resemblance pretty much ends there -- Goldiflocks is "skinned", and G2Mak seems golden armored. (And purple armored!) Goldy is a fusion of mostly Skakdi. Makuta doesn't resemble a Skakdi at all. Goldy was "blissful to a fault" -- Makuta is envious (another clear repeated pattern from G1 evidencing a reimagining BTW), annoyed, perturbed... basically the opposite of Goldy's personality. Goldiflocks could wave his hand and make a castle, Makuta has to work hard, groaning as he hammers, to make a mask, and relies apparently on a system of "getting elemental forces from the island" same as Ekimu did to imbue the mask with power. And Goldy could control, as you mentioned, without a mask. Not to mention, Greg confirmed Makuta was dead! Truly dead, not just mostly. "Teridax created the GSB before the final battle" I think a recent topic brought out that this was a myth based on a theory that we had somehow taken as fact, and we don't actually know who was behind it. I forget the details, though. But I think people were suggesting Velika instead. "However, Teridax didn't plan to be defeated in a way that destroyed the Core Processor holding his Antidermis. That destruction meant some Antidermis was lost. After some time composing himself, Teridax in Antidermis form heads to find the GSB, losing more Antidermis on the way. He manages to take over the mind of the GSB" I'd just point out that in addition of this requiring a retcon of Makuta's death certificate signed by Dr. Farshtey (), there was already an opportunity to have Makuta start this, albeit earlier, because a small green cloud was described as entering and for a while we didn't know who that was. Yet, Greg later confirmed it was Zaktan. Why do that, if this is really all about having Makuta be revived? Why not leave it unanswered who that was? Now we know that couldn't have been Teridax, so this would require (albeit now at two different times, one pre-fusion, one after), TWO little green clouds going to this fusion. Slightly repetitive story much? "but the Antidermis he lost earlier encoded many of his memories. He now thinks his name is "Makuta", and only remembers his original purpose of helping the Matoran." This is not a bad idea, but as a theory it's mighty convenient. Just the right memories just so happen to get erased, and no others, so that he goes back to a state matching what some people popularly and inaccurately guessed he was like in 2001? Sounds much more like LEGO wants to give multiple tastes what they want by having a version of Makuta as they'd intended, in 2001-2010, and a reimagined version like that popular theory for 2015. "(As a side note, the GSB took control of the Toa Mahri, so if this theory is accurate then Makuta in G2 may control five corrupted Toa.)" Note that his control was broken and they were freed during the fight with Annona. Whether they were recaptured is unclear, but seems unlikely to me. (Knowing what they were dealing with, I doubt they would stick around.) -Your Okoto point is pretty reasonable, but doesn't explain why it reminds so well of Mata Nui island in form, and why there have been lines implying the island actually has elemental forces making the six regions this time (another popular theory about 2001 that was not confirmed, so probably another reason to have a reimagining). -I do see tidbits of evidence for your basic elements theory. If they're Agori, we would expect to see three elements the same -- Fire, Water, and Ice, and we do. And three elements different -- Jungle (check), Sand (read on), and Rock (read). Canonically there were other tribes, like Iron and Earth, but we wouldn't necessarily expect to see those as they were obscure. Your logic about Jungle seems mostly solid, but we don't actually know much yet about the elemental power, and I have some nitpicks (read yo yo). Sand? Yeah, the tan colored Toa is seen blatantly controlling sand. (Stone.) Rock? Mostly no. However, there is a line that says Onua is tunneling through solid rock. Which as I've pointed out, was possible anyways in Gen1 with mask of Strength, natural strength, and claws, and Gen 2 Onua looks super strong and has metal claw/shovel-ish things, so this doesn't necessarily mean anything. But it's still interesting that there is evidence for your theory here. However, these things work just as well for a reimagining. In fact, originally sand was to be in the purview of Stone, which is probably why there's so much of it in Po-Wahi. Later this was retconned so Sand was in the middle and part of neither (possibly with plans to use it later, which didn't happen for the MU but did for SM, obviously). And Lewa was often confused for a Toa of Plants by fans early on, due to promo art showing him swinging through vines and the green color. And the tunneling thing, as mentioned, works in either generation, as far as we know so far. "This regards how the Protectors seem more similar to Agori than Matoran. -Firstly, the Protectors can give birth, grow from children and age. This suggests that they are organic beings like Agori, who could also reproduce etc. Matoran are biomechanical and can not reproduce etc. (As an aside, this is good evidence that G2 is not a rerun of the G1 story as some theorise, because if it were, why not use Matoran?)" How do you know they're not? I remember a popular fanfic when I was new to BZP back in the day, where somebody reimagined Matoran as aging like us and reproducing basically like us, having fathers and sons. It seems clear to me somebody had the same idea with Gen 2. They're not using the name Matoran, but: 1) They're not using the name Agori either, so that's irrelevant so far. 2) They're avoiding overuse* of fictional names this time clearly on purpose. 3) I had been expecting them to do this anyways, because it makes a lot of sense to avoid confusing new fans (and have been using it as a rule, not to this extent but still, in my retelling for the same reasons). *Overuse is subjective and depends on the audience. Gen 1 intentionally targeted kids who wanted a story that took a lot of work to understand. However, "populating the field of variety" means we should expect a version that goes the other route. Plus, times have changed. Kids during Gen 1 may have had more time, or just less access to more stories, so just more room in their heads. They didn't spend a lot of time on "social media" (yeah, we had forums which do the same thing but Twitter and Bookface weren't a thing... well, there was that MyVoid or whatever it was... but yeah, now kids spend a lot of time on those things). Attention spans have gone down, and people have noticed. So, these can easily BE Matoran, with Agori-like elements, and working more like us. "(evidenced by Air Elemental Blaster and Protector "Jungle Mask", not "Mask of Jungle" as with the other masks)" But by this logic, the theory falls apart since Lewa IS called the Master of Jungle. "the G2 Toa look like upgrades of the G1 Toa, not rebuilds." This seems subjective to me. A rebuild (reimagining) could look like anything the reimaginers wanted it to be. "Secondly, the references to the past, and the Vahi, imply that this is the same Toa team from the past." Uh... that just does not follow at all. Of course there is a past in a reimagining. And we would also expect to see some masks re-used (and already have, with the Mask of Creation). But this is at least, as said, a better way to incorporate the Vahi into a connection theory than the attempts thus far. "Thirdly, the Toa in G2 have memory loss and that could include forgetting that their masks have avilities like shielding etc." I don't think this works even in your theory. Surely they would notice when trying to call on a Mask of Fire and a shield appears. Gen 2's story, at least in first half of 2015, is focused on these masks, so I doubt they could fail to notice what the powers are! I think you would have to say that they wanted elemental masks like Takanuva has, and since their faces as their normal masks are so well known, and in Gen 1 masks can be made in any shape, they got something similar to the dealio with the Toa Hagah, and got elemental masks similar to their normal faces. (But then, why do that? Those mask powers made sense for those Toa in Gen 1 and elemental masks are superfluous for them. Admittedly it's not clear yet that the Gen 2 Toa have NO powers without the masks, but if they're the same people as Gen 1, this would be strange. Takanuva had an excuse; the Mask of Light made thematic sense in-universe as an object passed around and protected to be used to Toa-ize an Av-Matoran if things got dark enough. I'm not seeing it for the Toa Mata... although admittedly their being named after their elements does give a thematic reason, but enough of a motive to do it? Eh...) "Fouthly, the Toa according to this theory are still biomechanical. Therefore they are immortal" Okay that really doesn't follow... Not only were the biomechanical beings of Gen 1 mortal anyways (although advances in the future, before these characters died, could admittedly be made), having some mechanical parts does nothing to make the biological parts age any differently! Very long lifespans (seen in Gen 1 in both the Agori and the Matoran, and relatives of each) are more about the design of the organic parts, than whether or not you have mechanical parts. (Plus, anything technological is actually a problem for lifespan as tech is less self-healing normally than organics, so you need some more advanced methods to deal with that problem, which "mechanical" does not imply.) "It also explains why the Protectors are surprised that the Toa survived a crash-landing" I'm curious where you're getting this? I don't recall seeing evidence of this when I did my Okoto Video Findings project. Maybe I missed it? Or another source? "biological Protectors are more fragile beings, so would not survive a similar landing." This would only be evidence they were robotic (and I have suspected this based on it), not biomechanical, since this very argument should mean the organic parts get too damaged. (And why can't organic Toa with implant tech get just the right implants to survive it, if this is how they survived?) "Lastly, as a side note, in G1 astrology was not a thing." ?? Meet Nixie, the Astrologer: http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Nixie "The "Toa Planets" could actually have been the Toa themselves, orbiting Spherus Magna in canisters or space stations (a similar idea to G1's Red Star - I imagine that the planets did not disappear when the Toa arrived, so something must remain that the Toa were ejected from)." The idea that the Toa Planets are Red Star type spacecraft owned by each Toa Okoto is freaking awesome. Not sure it really fits the rest of your theory, though. It seems unlikely for Gen 1, in any time period. The Gen 1 Toa were all about the theme of teamwork, so if they got their own spacecraft, I think it would be one craft most likely. And I don't think it fits the G2 evidence anyways -- a spacecraft with a comet's tail is one thing, but a Saturnian ring??

6: The opening with the being walking by was really engaging. I was fascinating by the being's description. Then again when apparently it was a Tahtorak (though confused because earlier I thought the being wasn't much taller than a Toa... then again, the characters in the story wouldn't necessarily know Tahtorak are bigger normally... and there's obviously already funky size stuff going on in the story -- still, I wondered if I'd misread and it actually is that big here). The idea of a Tahtorak transformed to a bipedal form (apparently) and more like a normal titan size (apparently?) is pretty awesome. Maybe my misunderstanding, maybe what you meant... unsure, but cool? So, V&N(&T) think the fog is bad, as it chases J&N. I'm still not sure it is... But then, one chaser has already turned out to be evidently good, so... the other here might be bad. And apparently there's another chaser that is allegedly bad and may... may be the antagonist. Maybe. Or maybe the fog is... or... something. To the last section: Hm.

I was very curious about this, but when I found the image, it looks like you were probably misinterpreting, and that's the Protector of Fire: http://cache.lego.com/r/www/r/bionicle/-/media/franchises/bionicle%202014/build/pdf%20files/70790.pdf?l.r2=-1432340351 The mask is two-colored, same tones as his. All the other evidence so far indicates two-colored mask is Protector, one-colored is all villagers. He's only carrying one tool, but it's identical to PoF's. And he doesn't have that shoulder cannon, but it could easily be removeable (maybe out of ammo for example; maybe he went through a battle to get that close to the Skull Spider mask, which would make sense, and also explain the loss of one tool perhaps).

I don't think we'll decide this really -- if the story pays attention to the islanders, we will; if it doesn't, we won't, yeah?

I guess he hasn't really made this clear here, but he seems to have seen my main points in our PM conversation. I'll let him decide if he wants to explain all that here though.

I think that would just confuse the fans who would believe early marketing that these are the Masks of Fire, Water, etc., Xelphene.

Actually, no Alv, because the possibility there is very possible. It should not be insulting to realize that others can understand things more easily than you. (Or somebody else.) That is a very bad idea; it implies everybody has all the same strengths and weaknesses, which we know not to be the case. And this also goes both ways, as mentioned in a similar example before. If I'm wrong in those things, then it is I who am failing to understand something (a problem) that in this case Katuko is. There's no room to hide from this issue here, Alv, so both sides should be mature enough to accept this -- that one side or the other must be failing to understand the subject more than the other.

Possible, yeah. I just figured they wanted some asymmetry. Besides Kopaka's mask.

Yeah, I mentioned that possibility in my Findings topic. On the other hand, Gen 1 Onua, being naturally strong, plus aided by Pakari, and claw hands, could do that too. If slowly.

Isn't this like an earlier case here where somebody listed a downside as evidence it was OP? I guess this would work if somebody wanted to us it as a WMD, but normally the OP thing would be if they wanted to control time however they wanted without the risk of this. So this actually helps prevent it from being OP. (Although it's also supposed to be more powerful than most as it's Legendary.) Well, that latter statement could apply to a lot of powers, but more to the point, I suspect it may need some 'cooldown' time to recharge for the next jump. So in addition to an ambush by one person, if you could guess where the target would jump to, and had a second person ready to ambush there, a two-person team would stand a great chance. Katuko, I've replied to your PM, and will try (try) not to get too detailed here. And as in the PM, lemme forgo quote tags [draft edit: mostly] as it's faster this way (and I'll use some bullet point replies too): "My point, to make it short and simple, is that the Mask of Possibilities – by acting upon a single event and manipulating it directly – is removing chance to the point where "probability" of both the original situation and the resulting situation is irrelevant." Assuming we're using the definition that "100% probable isn't part of what we mean by probability here", this still doesn't even work in most situations because it doesn't force total 100%. It just makes it MORE or LESS likely. So the resulting situation usually probably still has some "between zero and 100" percent proabability, which matters because the mask can fail. And the original situation (what would have happened if the mask hadn't interfered) is still relevant too, because the starting percentage affects where the final percentage will be. That is, if the mask adds 20%, it will matter if you started with 30% or 60% etc. -Lemme repeat that while I think the mask itself scans its environment, I don't think the user is likely fed any information at all. I think it's programmed so the user feeds the mask their desires, and it sees what it can do to make it more likely. -Statistics still describes what happens, especially when SOME uncertainty is still involved. I don't get why you don't seem to be factoring this. It seems to me that wordings like "MORE likely" make this a vital part of the power... "I agree that we do not need to know the actual probability in order to make the mask power work in the story, but that is also why I find "probability" mostly irrelevant to its actual effect, and I feel it would be best redefined." I don't see why. That and possibility are the main words plain English has (and commonly understood mathematical English), that fit these commonplace and often important concepts. (My PM went more into why the importance of randomness is just as commonplace as lifting weights, as part of why in-story a Toa would want such a power, so out-story preferences against it banning them from it don't really make sense, in terms of logical consistency.) The normal definitions we have suffice, and are widely known. Redefining it is only going to confuse people and take more work to explain your unusual definition to them. "It's hard to envision what the mask can and can't do." In some cases yeah, but you can just ignore those. Many others are easy -- a Toa fires a projectile. There's some kickback, so if he fires multiple times, there's a random spread effect of exactly where it hits. This would make it a bit more accurate (so imagine the circle of where the random dots end up constricting to be closer to the target, but not perfectly on it). Not as much as the Sanok, but that makes sense as it has more applications than the Sanok. This is how it avoids being OP. And taking some thought to apply powers to specific circumstances is actually a big part of the theme of Bionicle. "We agree that a deck cannot be manipulated once shuffled, and that a boulder can not be made to fall if it would require a major force, right?" Former, yes. Second... usually. Unless there is a strong chance that a major force is passing by and can be diverted. Usually no, though. I would have given the example (as I did in the PM) that a rock already falling is going to keep falling in the normal scenario (no real likelihood of something suddenly moving to block it here; that's part of the constants in the scenario... and it can't stop gravity or the like). "By dealing with miniscule effects and a vague power description, we have the problem of trying to figure out not just its limits, but what it can actually do in the first place!" But usually this is only difficult if you make it difficult. If you just think about it intuitively the way people do about chance all the time ("If I'd been a second later I'd have been in that wreck!" and so forth), it's easy! Usually. "It also leads to me trying to explain my views on probability in sci-fi, which obviously falls flat because sci-fi rules about chance might as well be no rules." This is too far off-topic to say much about, but lemme point out that by talking about a whole genre, you're talking about almost nothing, since different stories will differ in their approaches. Other sci-fi stories don't really matter here (and this is sci-fant anyways); what matters is Bionicle has powers, and this is well within the purview of what those powers can do, and it's logical that Toa would value such a power. Complex or not. "And everything from the Kakama to the Hau - and even the Mohtrek! - has a description which makes its effect upon activation rather clear. "Possibilities" does not, really." Lots of us seem to be getting it quite easily, Katuko. I don't agree. See above. Think of it this way. Matatu means the enemy throwing a rock at you you can't hit you (assuming you have time to activate it, or see it coming -- the latter works for Hau too, obviously). Possibilities means he might hit you anyways. (But Possibilities, while having a smaller effect, seems to apply to a wider variety of circumstances, so it balances out.) "I just wish to know if it really works by using telekinesis, or mind control, or whatever, so that I can properly envision just what it is allowed to do." I agree clearing up mind control/influence would be helpful. Presumably it can't be the normal method, though; there's no mind involved in when a boulder falls for example (normally). Assuming it doesn't control the user (that would be Calix, I guess). "because the actual effect of the power doesn't change regardless of if it makes your muscles stronger or it envelops you in an energy field." Actually, sure it does, and topics have discussed these things. There are different types of strengths, and people have debated and questioned about them; does it add to endurance, for example? If it temporarily mutates the muscles, does the effect only gradually fade when it's switched off, as an energy field would imply? And an energy field could imply a much higher maximum; muscle alteration would presumably run into a hard limitation. It's highly relevant. Maybe you didn't happen to think of these things, and that's cool. But others have. I think this shows that it's not so much about the powers themselves, but about somewhat "random" (irony again!) cases of different fans happening to think of complications for one power versus another. "Probability, on the other hand, requires more of an agreement of what its power even is. In my view, shuffling cards or rolling dice is indeed "chance" – tiny physics variables which you can not predict" I disagree with the emphasis on predicting as explained already, but main point here is -- it's illogical to see shuffling and dice as chance, but not see the same thing in other situations as somehow not. Whoever came up with the idea of a power of probability influencing, obviously recognized the simple concept that the same principles that are at work with dice are at work in many other things too, especially things in battle. And of course they have to be! Bodies and settings and weapons and the like are made out of the same stuff as dice and cards -- atoms, molecules, etc. "The bio on both BS01 and Wikia is a single sentence which doesn't even cite an example!" Maybe because almost everybody intuitively gets it and none of the editors felt it was necessary? "Yes, it is only semantics. Sorry about that. I, too, see it as making sure your card lands on top." Thanks for clarifying. "It can't be said to now be a "10:52" chance in my eyes, because physics are either manipulated to make the result 100% predictable, or else the manipulation has failed." I see absolutely no reason to say this. It looks like an obvious false dichotomy. And... uh... yeah... if it fails, it failed. Yerpointwas? Lemme quote something from my PM that's relevant here: This shows an example that debunks the idea that it's either 1/52 or 52/52. It's harder to see how it applies to card shuffling, to be fair, but my point is that influencing probability rather than forcing a 100% probability is possible even in real life, and the math of probability applies, even now. (To this example of a weighted cube, or a weighted coin, etc.) So absolutely a 10/52 change IS possible! Actually, though, it does look like in both quotes here, you're making another equivocation error, because you're apparently responding to my 10/52 idea with "100% predictable", which is NOT the same thing as having the same result (without interference) 100% of the time, or influence rather than force. That just means you have total knowledge of each case -- it doesn't change that the results can vary from case to case and that influence (rather than total force) still results in SOME variety from case to case. It looks like you may have mixed up this measuring of percent with the more relevant one, maybe just because both involved a percent? Measuring your percent likelihood of guessing right is a different thing from measuring the likelihood of a result happening. Make sense? "The situation changes so that it is no longer the original situation" Agreed, but this does not mean the new situation has to be absolutely guaranteed to produce the desired result. It CAN mean the "chance" is just higher. Just like slightly weighting a die will not force it to always land on the desired side, but does change the probability math. (A concept that often matters at casinos. At least according to the highly authoritative source of TV. A cheater in fact doesn't want 100% (6/6), because that's too obvious. Not that this matters to Bionicle examples off the top of my head...) "In my eyes, the mask can not activate and change 1:500 to 1:10, because once it activates your wish results in either 1:1 or 0:1." But all you're doing there (unless you were actually confused in your logic as guessed above) is headcanoning it into a Mask of Omnipotence. This isn't relevant to whether the canon mask is OP, because the canon one isn't doing what you're saying here. As I've realized by talking with others, some view "making a boulder fall" as entirely within the realm of Possibilities to make happen at a given moment, whereas I do not. I thought I was talking about the two swords example there. Pardon if I'm mixed up, heh. But if a boulder is on the verge of going, so that random things like a puff of wind or whatever could make it go or not go at that time, I think it would definitely apply. *checks back* Yeah, that was the sword example. "I have never seen "30% chance" and the likes to be anything except a way for us to approximate and put statistics on the results we get/have observed." All I can say is, read everything I've been saying to you. And again, remember it's irrelevant how often people SAY this. But I dunno if you live in a different dimension to me, because I hear people talk about this all the time. Usually when car accidents happen. And probability scientists especially deal with things like the variously weighted dice often. Random number generator programmers also have to deal with it, in their case often WITH understanding the causes in each case (or at least the computer does, and could be made to print out the causes before running each case, without making ALL cases have to be the same; in fact that would defeat the point). "What I have a problem with is saying that someone could look at that box, magically wave their hand" Pet peeve here, but this "magical hand waving" is usually nothing but a semantics fallacy, at least in light of the definition of "magic" as "science you don't understand." It could be applied to almost any power, so really says just about nothing in any specific case... "Can it affect anything before your hand is in motion at all? That last thing is really what I want to know." I'd think it could if it's like applying a bit of telekinetic force; that could start before things start moving or after; adding a bit of downward push to the opposing side of what you want on a cube could start beforehand. But that also might waste power and risk it timing out before the die gets tossed, so might be a bad idea. Or to use a more Bionicley example, start pushing a rock to the side even before your enemy picks it up to throw it. (Or the Kanoka... etc.) Presumably not enough for him to notice, until it's in flight. In that case it might be a good idea if you don't start it too early so that it would time out midflight, as slight changes in initial direction for things traveling (or trying to) in a straight line makes a larger difference later, versus activating it halfway through the flight. "From my point of view, the event being observed should only be possible to manipulate if it is already in motion" Maybe, but notice there are cases above where activating it beforehand can actually make the mask LESS useful, so less OP. Okay, I see you keep going on to repeat this "probably is just what we can't predict" idea, and "probability is done when we take control." I thought I debunked these in the early short posts but you just keep saying them. Hopefully the above covers them, but if not, imagine that every time you say it, I post a version of the same debunking. I don't want to repeat it every time now. If you disagree somehow with my perceived debunkings of these points, please stop just repeating the original idea over and over, and explain why my responses don't work (because at this point it's starting to look like circular reasoning). "If it could add in two more Kings of Heart in the deck, then it'd have changed the odds from 1:52 to 3:54" I don't think adding units is what's going on, but adding weight to one unit. (This is something I've noticed in all walks of life seems to be often missed by people trying to think about likelihood and probability. By "weight" here I mean both literal weight in cases like the weighted die, and importance/influence/priority/focus and so forth; in this case, the mask making one result more likely than others but not totally forced.) "The mask is doing something which is impossible to do in real life" Not so, as cases like the weighted die make clear. In fact the math of probability is OFTEN applied to cases like that. In real life. Take an election, for example. If one candidate cheats (and isn't caught), the chances of victory go way up. But if there's only so many votes one cheater can add (making that voter's weight higher), all the cheaters combined can only cheat by a certain amount, and if most people still vote the other way, the candidate can still lose. The fact that weight of one voter CAN vary is a huge part of why people try so hard to police polling to ensure the weight of every voter is kept at one! -I'm hoping you understand the distinction now about the user knowing the details and the mask knowing them, with the Qui-Gon example too. I think he likely forced a 100% chance, but the same principle could be used for less than that, and -- crucially -- that specific application of power applies there because chance was involved (a chance cube was used, so he had to have that skill for how to force/influence one side up, which is not a normal use of Jedi power after all, especially not making it look natural to Watto!). "Things I see it as unable to do is to make a falling rock divert its path, unless the path could be diverted with only a tiny amount of force (such as moving a pebble into position)" Agreed. Do you see why this statement is different from "it couldn't, period" type wordings? Although not sure pebble moving is a good example. I would think it more likely the boulder's path bends slightly to hit the pebble a certain way or the like. Unsure though. But I would say this is highly UNlikely, simply because a boulder implies large mass, and it takes a lot of force to alter the path of such a thing. Maybe if a strong metal object was leaning against a wall next to its path, and a puff of wind might knock it over so it does deflect the boulder though. But that's not a situation you'll normally see, at all. Maybe a smaller boulder that is on a smaller peak partway down, next to the boulder's path, and the bouncing of the big boulder MIGHT knock it loose and into its path and deflect it enough. That would be a liiittle more likely I guess. "I see it as unable to prevent an unstable rock from falling in the first place." But if it's on the verge, why wouldn't it? I think it should. You called it unstable, which implies it isn't already falling. It's a matter of timing when it falls, and in the scenario of falling when a person just happens to be walking by, that's clearly a verge situation, by definition. Okay... I said I wasn't going to keep repeating this... but oooooonnnnneeee more time: "I am of the mind that the only thing which makes it chance in the first place is our inability to predict the event." But as this is an "only" statement, and ignores the FACT that if you don't CONTROL it (and only predict it), multiple cases with the same constants will have different smaller variables and different results! Such that the math of probability does describe it. K, this simply isn't debatable. Now you can debate whether or not you want to use a definition of "chance" that fits here, but to say "only" is to say that nobody else is allowed to use the normal definition that does fit it. That makes no sense IMO. Once again I presume this mistake is only of word choice... but for clarity's sake I think it's important to understand this here (as if this really matters at all lol -- but presuming we care about accuracy ). "We just see a trend, I think, in that the longer the series went on, the more outlandish the powers started to become." Although I don't think mockery was your intent here, this looks like "mocking tone fallacy" as I often call it, or the principle behind it. What you phrase in a negative connotation as "outlandish", can also be phrased in a positive way as "exotic". It can also be seen as a natural progression from starting with obvious basics, and then after time to slow down and think, start applying the concept of powers to more advanced concepts. Kinda like college prerequisites and more advanced classes; when readers have had time to get used to powers, start getting a little more advanced with their use, since it's easy to see why Toa would want powers that can do such things. (And basically inevitable that fans will start to think, "hey, wouldn't they also do this and this and this with powers?") So, the fact that there's a change/difference alone cannot mean there's a problem, as change is an expected and healthy part of a continuing story. And BTW would be expected anyways as variety continues to be explored!