Anatomy Questions

[Katuko]

Looking at Tahu's shoulder in the MoL screenshot, the solution seems pretty clear. BIONICLE characters have a humanoid (but metallic) skeleton structure in the shoulders, and the animators simply know very little about proper muscle structure. When I draw robots and aliens and stuff I just stick pistons wherever anyways, because I have very little idea of how such a structure should actually look.

[Zox Tomana]

Based on a Q&A in Jag's file (see Greg Compendium firstpost latest edit for the link, or Jag's latest post there), it now appears to me the heartlight system probably works like this (but this is just a theory, to be clear):

 

1) Lungs take in air (with oxygen), supercharging the protodermis molecules in the lungs with energy -- for now, let's call it electricity although it might be something else. Eating also takes in energy.

My thoughts exactly.

 

2) All protodermis molecules throughout the body, even the plain old metal components, spread the electricity to every other part, with no need for above-micro-scale wires. The physical bonds between each protodermis molecule can act like wires (my coming protodermis theory will have more on that). So, the "heart" is likely not used for transmission of energy. This powers all the mechanical parts as well as the organic parts.

This is a reason that, if I do piece together all my thoughts into a single presentation, I'm definitely waiting to hear your thoughts on protodermis. I would disagree about the heart, however, in a way.

 

3) A lubricant system similar to those in cars does have a physical liquid pump, somewhat like our heart, but instead of using this to pump blood for transmission of energy to other cells as it works in ours (via oxygen transportation, etc.), it simply maintains lubricant presence everywhere that lubricant is needed. (Eating may involve the transformation of some food mass to energy and then back to matter to make new lubricant, and an alternate internal system could do the same if they chose to eat the way we do and most Rahi do, but they prefer not to. Same with making new organic mass for healing if needed.)

But does that really need a physical pump? Or were you just using "pump" as a placeholder word for thing-that-drives-the-distribution-of-lubricant whether it be a true pump or just a source that sends energy through the proto-links?

 

4) If the lubricant system is being powered by the more fundamental energy transmission system, and thus is functioning, the heartlight blinks. (Or at least shines, apparently it might not always be blinking, somebody said somewhere recently, which I've never noticed; in my stories thus far I've always assumed it blinks constantly unless it stops working. ) The logic here is that if the molecular electricity/energy transmission system stopped working and thus the lubricant pump stopped, everything else would be stopping too. But it's possible that the lubricant pump could break and give a false (lack of) signal to the heartlight without being fatal, if the energy flow was still working. (Or the heartlight indicator itself could break.)

Go back to Legends of Metru-Nui. Heck, start here like Tattorack had me do. All the little yellow lights on everyone's chest are heartlights. Note that none of them are blinking. Now go here for Lhikan's death and note his heartlight blinking post-damage by Shadow Hand attack. Over in MoL we can see the same thing in Jaller's death.

 

Now this is strictly based on my basic protodermis theory and on Greg's answer. I still like to think that the heart actually does involve energy transmission, though. Greg's answer was not presented as a final answer but just his personal feeling on it so far. And my protodermis theory is of course also just theory. So, we're still free to imagine the system working differently than this.

So, the way I'd see it is that the heart may involve energy flow, but rather acts as a monitor for the quality of that flow, and perhaps as a director for that flow. It isn't what drives the flow or stores the energy, but if energy flow stops, the heartlight stops. If there is damage or danger or deficiency, it blinks to indicate such.

 

Agreed. I suspect now that the "bridge" is made of a "balljoint" (or perhaps universal joint) on both ends, with a narrower metal rod between them, and in the middle, a ring that extends out, probably not spinning, just a thicker part of the rod. Muscles connect from torso to one side of this dividing ring, and other muscles connect from other side of ring, over the shoulders, and to the arm. Muscles can lift and twist, providing all the movements needed to move the arms around or twist enough to lift straight up. Does that seem to fit?

Yeah, and half the ring attached directly to the bone to provide a solid anchor, the other half designed to rotate freely when needed.

 

Another problem is that a smooth balljoint might run into serious problems getting enough friction to hold it where you need it to be. And a rough one isn't depicted but could also run into problems. Of course, a spinning motor could have similar problems, but robots have ways (I could get into some possibilities but this post is probably long enough heh). I dunno, I think this part needs more thought if we want to come up with something plausible and practical enough.

This I actually have an answer to, kinda. The outer ball we see is smooth to allow for the hand to go back and forth across its surface. The actual driving/holding bit would be inside the ball, the hand being anchored to a pin going through the ball itself. The motor for rotation about the axis of the arm could be stored within, or it could be within the forearm. That's completely theoretical, but would you think it makes sense?

[bonesiii]

But does that really need a physical pump?

That was my first thought too, when I read Greg's answer.

 

I don't know why he has chosen the old lubricant-pump idea for his thinking (though again, he didn't say this is canon per se); it's not what I would prefer (and not what I have used in my fanfics), but the pump part may have a practical use in making sure lubricant isn't unevenly lost in certain parts which then would need direct injection of it (think oil can, yellow-brick road style). Maybe he's just trying to make them seem more alien from us, I don't know.

 

I would personally rather the heart itself be a necessary part for survival. Maybe, however, Greg did intend to imply that "energy" transmission is aided by the moving lubricant, even though the energy isn't sent in chemical form so isn't technically "blood".

 

More likely, he simply is unaware of the energy-sending theory or hasn't realized fans seem to like it (an apparent majority from what I've seen). It's more recent than the lubricant theory and frankly better thought-through, but he was still active here at the time when the lubricant theory was thrown out by somebody (it might have been his idea originally too, I don't recall).

 

Note that none of them are blinking.

I'll just take your word for it, don't have time right now. Weird that I never noticed that. I wonder if the books agree with that? Somewhere along the line I know I got the impression that canonically they always blink, but I have no idea where. It may simply be one of those budgetary artistic license things and they only made the "proper" version when the audience's attention was drawn to the heartlight. But I admit I like the idea that a constant glow means full health.

 

Actually, I probably was just thinking of the human heart, come to think of it!

 

So, the way I'd see it is that the heart may involve energy flow, but rather acts as a monitor for the quality of that flow, and perhaps as a director for that flow.

Yeah, I was thinking something like the latter. It might not be forcing the flow to occur but without it perhaps the flow would just tend to escape through the chest and back armor instead of following the right path up the shoulder, down to the fingers, etc. etc.? So, without it the arm and leg muscles might die and the brain might fade rapidly. Maybe.

 

So, I think either "flow-director" or "flow-causer" are the options I prefer. (Of energy vital for survival.) It might also have a lubricant "pump" or redirector too as a secondary feature.

 

This I actually have an answer to, kinda. The outer ball we see is smooth to allow for the hand to go back and forth across its surface. The actual driving/holding bit would be inside the ball, the hand being anchored to a pin going through the ball itself. The motor for rotation about the axis of the arm could be stored within, or it could be within the forearm. That's completely theoretical, but would you think it makes sense?

It's possible.

[Katuko]

I would personally rather the heart itself be a necessary part for survival. Maybe, however, Greg did intend to imply that "energy" transmission is aided by the moving lubricant, even though the energy isn't sent in chemical form so isn't technically "blood".

 

So, the way I'd see it is that the heart may involve energy flow, but rather acts as a monitor for the quality of that flow, and perhaps as a director for that flow.

Yeah, I was thinking something like the latter. It might not be forcing the flow to occur but without it perhaps the flow would just tend to escape through the chest and back armor instead of following the right path up the shoulder, down to the fingers, etc. etc.? So, without it the arm and leg muscles might die and the brain might fade rapidly. Maybe.

 

So, I think either "flow-director" or "flow-causer" are the options I prefer. (Of energy vital for survival.) It might also have a lubricant "pump" or redirector too as a secondary feature.

 

I think their heart equivalent is not organic, but there could easily be some form of energy channel device that is just as necessary for the being to operate. I've always thought of their internals to have lungs, an energy tank of sorts instead of a stomach/digestive system, and an energy router instead of a heart.

 

 

Note that none of them are blinking.

I'll just take your word for it, don't have time right now. Weird that I never noticed that. I wonder if the books agree with that? Somewhere along the line I know I got the impression that canonically they always blink, but I have no idea where. It may simply be one of those budgetary artistic license things and they only made the "proper" version when the audience's attention was drawn to the heartlight. But I admit I like the idea that a constant glow means full health.

 

Matoran occasionally blink and/or close their eyes in the old Flash animations, but it's done mostly for effect. They show respect when bowing to a Turaga (such as Jaller to Vakama in one Bohrok episode), confusion by blinking after an event (Nuparu's eyes flicker while in pitch darkness due to a cave-in), or opening after being knocked out (we see from Takua's point of view as he wakes up at Kini-Nui after Gali's transmission).

 

I can't recall seeing characters blink just to clean their eyes.

[bonesiii]

We were talking about the heartlight blinking, K, not the eyes.

 

I agree with the other part.

[Zox Tomana]

I can't sleep, so I decided to put out a couple more things I noticed about the heartlight.

 

Jaller's death: Just goes out, no blinking. Could be a sign (medically speaking) that there was no actual damage from Turahk's attack, but rather that the energy from its staff overwhelmed Jaller's distributive system.

 

Lhikan's death: Blinks and there are several discharges of energy all over the Turaga's body. Damage from the Shadow Hand causes irreversible disruption to energy flow, resulting in discharges throughout the body and death due to a kind of hypovolemia?

 

Tahu: Yep, Tahu. When he is infected by Lehrahk's poison, his heartlight is actually dark. He obviously isn't dead, but the interference from Lehrahk's poison might be causing this. Instead of it being a sign of death, it is a sign of serious disruption in normal function.

 

Make of those observations what you will. I shouldn't be trusted to make proper interpretations at this hour XD

[Katuko]

Tahu: Yep, Tahu. When he is infected by Lehrahk's poison, his heartlight is actually dark. He obviously isn't dead, but the interference from Lehrahk's poison might be causing this. Instead of it being a sign of death, it is a sign of serious disruption in normal function.

While it's not the heart light, the eyes (yes, again with the eyes ) of Lewa go all dull when his mask is infected. Meanwhile, Krana and other forms of mind control do not affect the eyes. Tahu's eye is a sick dark green after the poison starts taking hold, with the glow vanishing. Considering that bio-mechanical eyes are another indicator of the being's status (going dark when they "shut off" and presumably flickering when they get damaged or their vision is fading due to lack of energy) it could be that the glow from the eyes and the heart light is an indicator for the very same system. I don't think the eyes need to glow for someone to see out of them, at least not if infected and/or undead status is any indicator. The same way the heart light may not need to glow for the being to be alive and functioning, but as you say it still serves as a status indicator for other things.

 

Later, when they had him strapped down, Gali did note that Tahu's life was in danger, by the way. The poison was slowly spreading and killing him, unlike a standard infected mask.

[Tattorack]

Ok, late reply, but internet was out for most of the day ^^;

All protodermis molecules throughout the body, even the plain old metal components, spread the electricity to every other part, with no need for above-micro-scale wires. The physical bonds between each protodermis molecule can act like wires (my coming protodermis theory will have more on that). So, the "heart" is likely not used for transmission of energy. This powers all the mechanical parts as well as the organic parts.

 

Gotta hand it to the Great Beings, that's some advanced biochemistry!

But does that really need a physical pump? Or were you just using "pump" as a placeholder word for thing-that-drives-the-distribution-of-lubricant whether it be a true pump or just a source that sends energy through the proto-links?

 

I think its a placeholder. Besides, anything that moves or distributes a liquid can be called a pump.

Go back to Legends of Metru-Nui. Heck, start here like Tattorack had me do. All the little yellow lights on everyone's chest are heartlights. Note that none of them are blinking. Now go here for Lhikan's death and note his heartlight blinking post-damage by Shadow Hand attack. Over in MoL we can see the same thing in Jaller's death.

 

I'll just take your word for it, don't have time right now. Weird that I never noticed that. I wonder if the books agree with that? Somewhere along the line I know I got the impression that canonically they always blink, but I have no idea where. It may simply be one of those budgetary artistic license things and they only made the "proper" version when the audience's attention was drawn to the heartlight. But I admit I like the idea that a constant glow means full health.



Actually, I probably was just thinking of the human heart, come to think of it!

 

I don't think the way the heartlights are in the movies are canon. Granted I'd preferre them not to blink/pulsate, but it has been mentioned before that they actually blink. Example:

When Krakua is sent to recrute Axon he jumps on him "in a blink of a heartlight" (I think that was Destiny War?)

[Zox Tomana]

It's the second paragraph of Ch. 1 or DW. "Axonn was on top of the Toa in the flash of a heart light, axe blade at the intruder's throat."

 

So, according to the written text, which is generally more preferable in determining canon I think, heart lights blink and flash. The concept of showing the quality of energy flow isn't out the window, however. In fact, it could give the heartlight greater indicative power. More energy flowing, faster blink. Damage, faster or even erratic flash. Maybe the movie people had one idea about how the heartlight was supposed to work, and Greg had another.

[Tattorack]

Or maybe they just cut the corner there... again.

[ALVIS]

Nah, I'm pretty sure the concept of heartlights didn't even exist until they showed up in the films. It would be impossible for the filmmakers to fail to "properly depict" a conceptual detail of their own devising.

 

Also, other forums have a rule against bringing up subjects from other topics, and I think that might be a good guideline to follow. You wanna whine, head on over to the whining thread we've got going.

[bonesiii]

Nah, I'm pretty sure the concept of heartlights didn't even exist until they showed up in the films. It would be impossible for the filmmakers to fail to "properly depict" a conceptual detail of their own devising.

I have never heard that the movie people were placed in charge of defining how heartlights worked, though -- the story team was in charge of "actual canon". The movie people could have thought of it because of movie needs, and based on that inspiration the story team / Greg could still have had their own version of it. Given that I at least didn't even notice they weren't blinking the whole time, it's even possible Greg didn't notice either. The movie people didn't necessarily communicate what they intended to the other story source producers.

 

To your second paragraph, please try to be a bit more gentle, okay? (Yes, I know it's how you feel, but everybody could stand to consider how what they actually express will affect others -- that goes both ways.)

[Tattorack]

Also, other forums have a rule against bringing up subjects from other topics, and I think that might be a good guideline to follow. You wanna whine, head on over to the whining thread we've got going.

 

I was actually stating a possible fact; they did cut corners. Like with the unexplainable hammerspace void behind everybody's back.

 

Also, the Nuva sets armour had such a clear place where a heartlight could go that I had actually placed a trans bright green stud there.That was about eight months before I saw the actual movie. So I suppose they really are meant to have a hreatlight from the very beginning.

 

Oh, more info on the blinking; actual blinking is only when dying, when healthy it pulsates.

[fishers64]

Oh, more info on the blinking; actual blinking is only when dying, when healthy it pulsates.

 

 

pulsate

verb (used without object)

1.

to expand and contract rhythmically, as the heart; beat; throb.

 

2.

to vibrate; quiver.

 

I think this might be correct. If you count energy vibrations. But the pulse of the heart wouldn't be be shown by the light itself, if the heartlight is steady.

[Pomegranate]

Okay so this is one of those lively discussions on a totally cool topic that gets me thinking, so I had a lot of time while working to mull this over and I came up with some interesting theories that I'd love to share. I'm on my break and I wanna type it all out while it's still fresh in my mind so I apologize in advance if it's not too coherent or something.

 

First thing I considered was the Heartlight and how exactly it's lit. I figured it was electrical cause frankly I don't know of any other way to generate light other than bioluminescence, so that's either achieved through mechanical means or comes from some kind of power source. Assuming it's the former, that means that whatever this generator runs on or however this energy is produced, it has to run on something. I thought that maybe the Matoran need nutrients and oxygen as catalysts for the reactions in whatever process gives their bodies energy to power their mechanical components, and obviously they need nutrients and oxygen for their organs and muscles. I think that if the main source of their power is organic, then these nutrients and energy would be used in obvious organic ways. On the other hand, if their main power source or whatever it is that processes their consumed energy and stuff is mechanical or generally inorganic in nature, then it's possible that those organic building blocks are converted into inorganic matter and whatever sort of energy their mechanical components needs. This would all explain where their muscles and stuff seemingly regenerate from and what keeps 'em lively and sturdy and generally running well for so many eons.

 

That led me to wonder how exactly their bodies dealt with and applied these processed nutrients and energy and I ended up thinking about nanomachines. If the Great Beings thought up a robot on such an insanely macroscopic scale, why wouldn't they also be just as meticulous and thorough with the microscopic? I remembered those terrifying little nano-organisms that are like, everywhere, I think they were called Zygglak? I can't remember for sure, I think the Ignika once blew them up to a ginormous size as its guardians. I hope you know what I mean! Those things might exist inside the Matoran body, acting the way natural bacteria does inside the human body. I really liked this idea and thought a lot about it and came up with a load of reasons for them to exist. First of all, there's the obvious connection to nano machines that I mentioned, moving around all these little organic and nonorganic components that the body produces (or perhaps they're the ones responsible for that, like enzymes!) and move them where they need to be. They could literally be building up the muscles when they "regenerate"! They can also act like antibodies, fighting infections and such, and keep the organics from rotting. The Matoran in Kharzani's realm were all weak and thin and I think that might be due to a lack of nutrition as well as being poorly repairs, cause then the nano organisms would be starved of energy for so long that they'd literally start eating away at the Matoran little by little, sorta the way our bodies do witch excess fat and stuff (as a matter of fact, that would apply to the Matoran of Metru Nui who slept in the stasis pods! The nano organisms being starved for energy or food as the poor little guys were comatose could have contributed to their weakened and smaller forms). Support for such behaviors in nano organisms exists in Kharzani's realm as well: the rust cloud, or whatever it was called, those little nano organisms that feasted on Matoran armor and mechanical parts and rust. I then considered that such rust mites might exist in the air in much more diluted populations everywhere in the MU (I think Legends #1 or #2 confirmed that?) and another job for the natural nano organisms is to fight off the rust mites in their tiny numbers should they land on or in a Matoran. In fact, the nano organisms could be the very reason that Matoran need most of their nutrients, to basically feed them. I figure the nano organisms could be like bacteria and conventional organ cells and white blood cells all at once, cause you know, it's Bionicle, it makes sense in context and we're not talking about real life biology.

 

Also! They could be the reason an imprint is left on Matoran Kanohi, as those nano organisms would migrate onto the mask and I'm assuming they are like, individual to each Matoran and carry some kind of analog to DNA or a power signature or even some telepathic bond/copy. As they die from lack of nutrients or life force of the Matoran, that's why the imprint goes away. I know they're starting to sound like Midichlorians but that's not exactly what I had in mind.

 

So, yeah, that was my train of thought. Do y'all think it makes sense? Also am I right to think there's some electricity involved in their operation or?

 

Also as an unrelated idea, something like a cross of Data's positronic brain and Voyager's bio-neural gel packs for their brains? Maybe?

 

And if y'all make any headway with this I would love to draw out an anatomical guide a la Da Vinci's journals or something, that could be neat ^^

[bonesiii]

First thing I considered was the Heartlight and how exactly it's lit. I figured it was electrical cause frankly I don't know of any other way to generate light other than bioluminescence

There are countless chemical ways to make light. The equivalent of bioluminescence is possible, but they also have fictional energies, like life energy, and fictional substances like lightstones. Considering the heartlight is protodermis, a super-advanced molecule best compared to a living cell with traits more similar to nanites (but not considered nanites), it really could be any of the above, including electrical. I tend to assume they don't rely on electricity itself because I like to think that if there was an EMP, they would survive like we can. (Of course, the actual blinking part of the heartlight is probably nonessential, but if it used electricity I'd think other components might, like eyes, ears, and possible some internal parts necessary for life -- but I mean not just survive but be unaffected.)

 

I remembered those terrifying little nano-organisms that are like, everywhere, I think they were called Zygglak?

You're probably thinking of protodites, the flying carnivorous germs that Zaktan was transformed into a cloud of. Zyglak are the Toa-sized reptilian sapient monstrosities made accidently as a side effect of the process used to make Krana by the Great Beings. (They're both rather terrifying, but Zyglak aren't microscopic. And protodites aren't "nano" either, but micro... as far as we know.)

 

Also! They could be the reason an imprint is left on Matoran Kanohi, as those nano organisms would migrate onto the mask and I'm assuming they are like, individual to each Matoran and carry some kind of analog to DNA or a power signature or even some telepathic bond/copy. As they die from lack of nutrients or life force of the Matoran, that's why the imprint goes away.

This is very possible, but technically unnecessary so far as we know, considering that every molecule of their body, even the ones that are just metal, is really protodermis and can perform complex functions. Instead of, for example, mobile cells transporting materials like a truck, it's just as possible one molecule passes materials to the next like an old-fashioned fire-fighting line of people handing water buckets down a line. And every single molecule in the body could store this data; that's what I think happens which would explain Greg's revelations that pretty much any part of the body being intact can be used to revive them.

 

That combined with a fictional energy being used to transmit it (perhaps psionic, perhaps life in general, or perhaps a raw energy originating from energized protodermis) would make them immune to EMPs, and also help explain how this imprint gets in the mask too. It's even possible the data is stored completely in stable (fictional) energy structures instead of matter, and this energy attaches to the matter of the body and mask. We don't really know, but there's a variety of possible theories for it.

[fishers64]

First thing I considered was the Heartlight and how exactly it's lit. I figured it was electrical cause frankly I don't know of any other way to generate light other than bioluminescence, so that's either achieved through mechanical means or comes from some kind of power source. Assuming it's the former, that means that whatever this generator runs on or however this energy is produced, it has to run on something. I thought that maybe the Matoran need nutrients and oxygen as catalysts for the reactions in whatever process gives their bodies energy to power their mechanical components, and obviously they need nutrients and oxygen for their organs and muscles. I think that if the main source of their power is organic, then these nutrients and energy would be used in obvious organic ways. On the other hand, if their main power source or whatever it is that processes their consumed energy and stuff is mechanical or generally inorganic in nature, then it's possible that those organic building blocks are converted into inorganic matter and whatever sort of energy their mechanical components needs. This would all explain where their muscles and stuff seemingly regenerate from and what keeps 'em lively and sturdy and generally running well for so many eons.

We know that Matoran absorb energy from their hands. Have you considered that it could be both? The energy process extracts nutrients from the food as well, giving them two reserves of mechanical energy and nutrients.

 

Or Matoran organics might not operate on nutrients as we think of them at all, but merely on energy. I don't know how that would work, but I'm not sure I can rule it out. It would seem likely given the "recharging" stations in Metru Nui.

 

I also think it unlikely that it would be mere electricity, given that electricity in the real world requires large batteries, etc. I would think it would be a better power source than that.

 

That led me to wonder how exactly their bodies dealt with and applied these processed nutrients and energy and I ended up thinking about nanomachines. If the Great Beings thought up a robot on such an insanely macroscopic scale, why wouldn't they also be just as meticulous and thorough with the microscopic? I remembered those terrifying little nano-organisms that are like, everywhere, I think they were called Zygglak? I can't remember for sure, I think the Ignika once blew them up to a ginormous size as its guardians. I hope you know what I mean! Those things might exist inside the Matoran body, acting the way natural bacteria does inside the human body. I really liked this idea and thought a lot about it and came up with a load of reasons for them to exist. First of all, there's the obvious connection to nano machines that I mentioned, moving around all these little organic and nonorganic components that the body produces (or perhaps they're the ones responsible for that, like enzymes!) and move them where they need to be. They could literally be building up the muscles when they "regenerate"! They can also act like antibodies, fighting infections and such, and keep the organics from rotting. The Matoran in Kharzani's realm were all weak and thin and I think that might be due to a lack of nutrition as well as being poorly repairs, cause then the nano organisms would be starved of energy for so long that they'd literally start eating away at the Matoran little by little, sorta the way our bodies do witch excess fat and stuff (as a matter of fact, that would apply to the Matoran of Metru Nui who slept in the stasis pods! The nano organisms being starved for energy or food as the poor little guys were comatose could have contributed to their weakened and smaller forms). Support for such behaviors in nano organisms exists in Kharzani's realm as well: the rust cloud, or whatever it was called, those little nano organisms that feasted on Matoran armor and mechanical parts and rust. I then considered that such rust mites might exist in the air in much more diluted populations everywhere in the MU (I think Legends #1 or #2 confirmed that?) and another job for the natural nano organisms is to fight off the rust mites in their tiny numbers should they land on or in a Matoran. In fact, the nano organisms could be the very reason that Matoran need most of their nutrients, to basically feed them. I figure the nano organisms could be like bacteria and conventional organ cells and white blood cells all at once, cause you know, it's Bionicle, it makes sense in context and we're not talking about real life biology.

I'm not sure that you would need to evoke nanites to get organic deterioration. Even our muscles shrink if we don't exercise/are diseased, etc. I like the idea of the muscles being disconnected from/badly connected to their power source to make them less workable though.

 

If you wanted to extend that the the mechanical parts, then you might be able to evoke that idea, and it might work. Or you can go with bones' theory that the proto itself is programmed to adapt to the condition of the organics (in the Matoran shrinking example) and that the programming was broken (in the Karzanhi example).

[Pomegranate]

 

First thing I considered was the Heartlight and how exactly it's lit. I figured it was electrical cause frankly I don't know of any other way to generate light other than bioluminescence

There are countless chemical ways to make light. The equivalent of bioluminescence is possible, but they also have fictional energies, like life energy, and fictional substances like lightstones. Considering the heartlight is protodermis, a super-advanced molecule best compared to a living cell with traits more similar to nanites (but not considered nanites), it really could be any of the above, including electrical. I tend to assume they don't rely on electricity itself because I like to think that if there was an EMP, they would survive like we can. (Of course, the actual blinking part of the heartlight is probably nonessential, but if it used electricity I'd think other components might, like eyes, ears, and possible some internal parts necessary for life -- but I mean not just survive but be unaffected.)

 

Oh dear, I really seem to have slipped up there, my bad ^^ I'm not really sure what I was thinking there, but yeah, plenty of ways for a heartlight to be lit.

 

I'm sure for ears and eyes they could easily have the Matoran equivalents of eardrums and the whole inner ear structure going on, since that's mostly just structural, and the same with the eye and capturing and refracting light and all that. You make a very good point about the EMP and such so I suppose it was a rather far fetched assumption If anything I'm sure they'd just stumble and get disoriented but nothing worse.

 

 

I remembered those terrifying little nano-organisms that are like, everywhere, I think they were called Zygglak?

You're probably thinking of protodites, the flying carnivorous germs that Zaktan was transformed into a cloud of. Zyglak are the Toa-sized reptilian sapient monstrosities made accidently as a side effect of the process used to make Krana by the Great Beings. (They're both rather terrifying, but Zyglak aren't microscopic. And protodites aren't "nano" either, but micro... as far as we know.)

 

 

Protodites! Yes, thank you, that's what I meant. I definitely overshot the scale there, micro makes plenty more sense. It was a sunny day, I blame heat exhaustion. I'm embarrassed by how many silly mistakes I've been making in the basic math and science department today. Assume I meant micro I didn't envision them as tiny machines, definitely as somewhat complex but tiny things.

 

 

Also! They could be the reason an imprint is left on Matoran Kanohi, as those nano organisms would migrate onto the mask and I'm assuming they are like, individual to each Matoran and carry some kind of analog to DNA or a power signature or even some telepathic bond/copy. As they die from lack of nutrients or life force of the Matoran, that's why the imprint goes away.

This is very possible, but technically unnecessary so far as we know, considering that every molecule of their body, even the ones that are just metal, is really protodermis and can perform complex functions. Instead of, for example, mobile cells transporting materials like a truck, it's just as possible one molecule passes materials to the next like an old-fashioned fire-fighting line of people handing water buckets down a line. And every single molecule in the body could store this data; that's what I think happens which would explain Greg's revelations that pretty much any part of the body being intact can be used to revive them.

 

That combined with a fictional energy being used to transmit it (perhaps psionic, perhaps life in general, or perhaps a raw energy originating from energized protodermis) would make them immune to EMPs, and also help explain how this imprint gets in the mask too. It's even possible the data is stored completely in stable (fictional) energy structures instead of matter, and this energy attaches to the matter of the body and mask. We don't really know, but there's a variety of possible theories for it.

 

 

 

Oooh, wow, I actually didn't know all this stuff about the properties of protodermis! It definitely sounds a lot neater than millions of microbes, and I do think the simpler the solution, the better. I really like the idea of this fictional energy, whatever it may be, storing data and all, 'cause it sounds a lot like quantum computing and taking advantage of entanglement and all that. It could certainly help explain the brains of the Matoran, since they're as small and spectacularly efficient as ours but functions for tens of thousands of years, which would make them supercomputers, and for them to be that small and efficient the Bionicle equivalent of quantum computers would make that sound like a piece of protodermic cake Also I immediately jumped from that to the idea that, if that were a legit theory, an equivalent of quantum entanglement and storing data like that could also explain telepathy in Bionicle. And of course, the mask imprint thing you originally mentioned.

 

Additionally, it could act as DNA or whatever, with every Matoran's Destiny actually written into their physical being? It brings up a lot of possibilities, thanks for offering that explanation, it'll keep me busy for a while

 

 

 

First thing I considered was the Heartlight and how exactly it's lit. I figured it was electrical cause frankly I don't know of any other way to generate light other than bioluminescence, so that's either achieved through mechanical means or comes from some kind of power source. Assuming it's the former, that means that whatever this generator runs on or however this energy is produced, it has to run on something. I thought that maybe the Matoran need nutrients and oxygen as catalysts for the reactions in whatever process gives their bodies energy to power their mechanical components, and obviously they need nutrients and oxygen for their organs and muscles. I think that if the main source of their power is organic, then these nutrients and energy would be used in obvious organic ways. On the other hand, if their main power source or whatever it is that processes their consumed energy and stuff is mechanical or generally inorganic in nature, then it's possible that those organic building blocks are converted into inorganic matter and whatever sort of energy their mechanical components needs. This would all explain where their muscles and stuff seemingly regenerate from and what keeps 'em lively and sturdy and generally running well for so many eons.

We know that Matoran absorb energy from their hands. Have you considered that it could be both? The energy process extracts nutrients from the food as well, giving them two reserves of mechanical energy and nutrients.

 

Or Matoran organics might not operate on nutrients as we think of them at all, but merely on energy. I don't know how that would work, but I'm not sure I can rule it out. It would seem likely given the "recharging" stations in Metru Nui.

 

I also think it unlikely that it would be mere electricity, given that electricity in the real world requires large batteries, etc. I would think it would be a better power source than that.

 

Yeah, I wasn't thinking electricity for that exactly, and Bones helped rule that out as very unlikely. I'm sure the power source is much more fantastical and powerful than that (is it the tears of the innocent? is it the stuff under Great Beings' fingernails? The possibilities are endless)

 

 

That led me to wonder how exactly their bodies dealt with and applied these processed nutrients and energy and I ended up thinking about nanomachines. If the Great Beings thought up a robot on such an insanely macroscopic scale, why wouldn't they also be just as meticulous and thorough with the microscopic? I remembered those terrifying little nano-organisms that are like, everywhere, I think they were called Zygglak? I can't remember for sure, I think the Ignika once blew them up to a ginormous size as its guardians. I hope you know what I mean! Those things might exist inside the Matoran body, acting the way natural bacteria does inside the human body. I really liked this idea and thought a lot about it and came up with a load of reasons for them to exist. First of all, there's the obvious connection to nano machines that I mentioned, moving around all these little organic and nonorganic components that the body produces (or perhaps they're the ones responsible for that, like enzymes!) and move them where they need to be. They could literally be building up the muscles when they "regenerate"! They can also act like antibodies, fighting infections and such, and keep the organics from rotting. The Matoran in Kharzani's realm were all weak and thin and I think that might be due to a lack of nutrition as well as being poorly repairs, cause then the nano organisms would be starved of energy for so long that they'd literally start eating away at the Matoran little by little, sorta the way our bodies do witch excess fat and stuff (as a matter of fact, that would apply to the Matoran of Metru Nui who slept in the stasis pods! The nano organisms being starved for energy or food as the poor little guys were comatose could have contributed to their weakened and smaller forms). Support for such behaviors in nano organisms exists in Kharzani's realm as well: the rust cloud, or whatever it was called, those little nano organisms that feasted on Matoran armor and mechanical parts and rust. I then considered that such rust mites might exist in the air in much more diluted populations everywhere in the MU (I think Legends #1 or #2 confirmed that?) and another job for the natural nano organisms is to fight off the rust mites in their tiny numbers should they land on or in a Matoran. In fact, the nano organisms could be the very reason that Matoran need most of their nutrients, to basically feed them. I figure the nano organisms could be like bacteria and conventional organ cells and white blood cells all at once, cause you know, it's Bionicle, it makes sense in context and we're not talking about real life biology.

I'm not sure that you would need to evoke nanites to get organic deterioration. Even our muscles shrink if we don't exercise/are diseased, etc. I like the idea of the muscles being disconnected from/badly connected to their power source to make them less workable though.

 

If you wanted to extend that the the mechanical parts, then you might be able to evoke that idea, and it might work. Or you can go with bones' theory that the proto itself is programmed to adapt to the condition of the organics (in the Matoran shrinking example) and that the programming was broken (in the Karzanhi example).

 

Yeah, I definitely like the protodermis idea more. I just had all these ideas bouncing around about the nanomicroorganisms, whether they're Protodites or their Matoran-inhabiting cousins, and they seemed like they could explain away aaannyyything If anything, I feel like the thing about them living on the surface of Matoran armor and fighting off/feasting on the little rust mites or whatever is pretty plausible as just one of those "meanwhile on the microscopic level" things to explain away every nook and cranny of this fictional world we can think of.

 

I'm wary about just handwaving everything off as "protodermis is complex" 'cause that's a little too much phlebotinum in my opinion, but I'm sure it's a some of that and a little bit of organics and a bunch of old fashioned mechanical stuff that y'all have been discussing.

 

 

Thanks for addressing my little wall of text there ^^ I'm really curious about this stuff

Edited March 31, 2014 by Pomegranate

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Additionally, it could act as DNA or whatever, with every Matoran's Destiny actually written into their physical being?

 

Imagine how things would have ended if Teridax had thought to get a "DNA test" to check his actual destiny.

 

But is there an actual way for MU residents to check their programming? Presumably it's possible, as the Great Beings must be able too. Then again, that would mean Velika could just reprogram his murder targets to do his bidding instead of killing them.