Element of the Great Beings Theory

[bonesiii]

So, the more I've been reviewing Bionicle's sources and thinking about possible theories to explain some things, the more I've noticed a few patterns that could possibly explain where the Great Beings came from. It seems to fit so well that at the same time it's like it's been staring us in the face and yet is too believable to be true. (As such, I'm opting not to use it for my retelling but figured I might as well throw it out there for discussion anyways. )

 

Greg recently suggested that they may be of the Glatorian ("warrior class") species. Yet they don't seem like warriors. More egghead. Now what if somebody of that species happened not to be into fighting? They wouldn't be called warriors but would be taller than Agori.

 

Greg also said he doesn't see them as having any powers; they used science to gain their abilities. (Although whether this rules out gaining powers through these means is unclear. It seems they did not gain psionic abilities from Annona, just multiplied inventiveness, but they were already very inventive naturally and this seems to be how they survived her mental attacks. They might have invented powers that imitate her abilities later.) I've also noticed... they make a lot of things... and these things tend to have something in common.

 

They make a lot of metal things. The armor that became well known on everybody for example. Mostly metal Matoran, although we can blame that inspiration in part on the metallic bones of the SM lifeforms too.

 

There's also a tribe that is well known for being attacked by Annona.

 

What if they were a percentage of the Iron Tribe's "warrior" class?

 

It might make sense that the tribe devoted to metal would be more scientifically minded. You generally don't just find it sitting around; you have to process ore to get it out and to do this right you sort of have no choice but to become scientifically minded. That personality trait in general might explain how that branch of Agori started thinking of themselves as the "Iron" tribe in the first place in ancient times. But the trait could vary in intensity. Sahmad and Telluris could be some of the brighter ones (both seem very intelligent; BS01 even calls Telluris "brilliant" -- and Sahmad outsmarted the psionic mastermind of Annona, albeit with help), just enough to survive the dream stealing, but not enough to count as Great Beings.

 

It's even possible some of the GBs are actually Iron Agori; in the scene in Inferno (2006 book) where two GBs are featured, one is said to be shorter than the other. (Or 'warrior' class members could just vary significantly in height, or if they're a totally separate branch of the Agori family it might just not work this way at all.)

 

It might also explain their tendency to wear concealing cloaks? Once the dream plague started... Perhaps they did what the orange armor paint of Sahmad/etc. was meant to do but failed -- hid their identities from everybody. Timing of this might get tricky though because the Iron Agori already had metal armor and the like before the attacks, as I understand it. Which may have come from the Great Beings. This might be a point against the possibility. Plus it would seem strange then that Iron is just another secondary element in the MU. Unless that is just part of concealing their identity...

 

If true, it would also help explain why Annona was so frightened of them as to hide; not only would she fear they would retaliate for attempted killing of her and general sympathy with the Iron Tribe she harmed, they might think of those lost Iron Tribe members as close family and want to avenge their deaths.

 

Insane? Impossible? Too simple to be true? Probably. Or could it actually be the case?

Edited March 25, 2014 by bonesiii

[Chro]

I think it's definitely possible.

 

Timing of this might get tricky though because the Iron Agori already had metal armor and the like before the attacks, as I understand it. Which may have come from the Great Beings. This might be a point against the possibility.

As you said a few paragraphs up, they were likely already inclined towards metalworking and such, so I wouldn't find it hard to believe that they had crafted metal armor for themselves prior to the incidents with Annona.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Chro

[JAG18]

I might just be missing something, but according to the BS01 timelines the Great Beings were already the rulers of Spherus Magna as early as 250,000 years ago, where as the Iron Tribe was not wiped out until about 103,000 years ago.

How could the GB's thus be survivors of The Iron Tribe?

 

But, like I said I'm probably just missing something, meaning that the above doesn't really matter. Either way, this theory seems sound enough and could be quite plausible.

[Azani]

I might just be missing something, but according to the BS01 timelines the Great Beings were already the rulers of Spherus Magna as early as 250,000 years ago, where as the Iron Tribe was not wiped out until about 103,000 years ago.

How could the GB's thus be survivors of The Iron Tribe?

 

But, like I said I'm probably just missing something, meaning that the above doesn't really matter. Either way, this theory seems sound enough and could be quite plausible.

It's possible that Annona hadn't reached her full strength until approximately 103,000 years ago, or that she waited to harm the Iron Tribe until she saw fit, for one reason or another. There are a lot of unknown events which are challenging to completely disregard or endorse until we know more about the early history of Spherus Magna, i.e. pre-100,000 years ago, or before the Core War.

 

There is also the possibility that the great beings are survivors of an earlier tribe which was wiped out by Annona, or by an asteroid, earthquake, or flood, many thousands of years before the Iron Tribe was decimated. It could have been so long before the iron tribe disaster that the survivors had begun to evolve to a form of being in which they could not be targeted by Annona. Maybe they were members of a silicon tribe, or a copper tribe. If their race had become outcasts from the other tribes, and slowly evolved into their own god-like species well before the plague on the iron tribe, it would explain why we didn’t see a single refugee from the tribe out and about on Bara Magna, i.e. Sahmad, Telluris, as we did with the iron tribe which lacked the time to evolve. It would also shed some new light on this piece of Spherus Magnan folklore, which may or may not be entirely true at face value:

 

“However, Annona found their minds too strange to alter, and the great beings instead used the energy to achieve new heights of their creating” –BS01

 

 

What if the silicon or copper tribe had been attacked by Annona many time over several hundred millennia, and the final time, possibly millions of years later, Annona had been shocked by the degree to which they had evolved to withstand her attacks? Their brains were now so malleable, physically and mentally, that they were able to shield their minds form hers and reach inside her mind at the same time. Maybe the great beings wear special cloaks to contain their essence, much like an antidermis-based Makuta would?

[The Legendary TNT]

The Great Beings were around before the dreaming plague. Sahmad would have recognized them as one of his people (probably) if that were the case. It's possible that they might be an off-shoot of the iron tribe, but I doubt it.

[JAG18]

 

There is also the possibility that the great beings are survivors of an earlier tribe which was wiped out by Annona, or by an asteroid, earthquake, or flood, many thousands of years before the Iron Tribe was decimated. It could have been so long before the iron tribe disaster that the survivors had begun to evolve to a form of being in which they could not be targeted by Annona. Maybe they were members of a silicon tribe, or a copper tribe. If their race had become outcasts from the other tribes, and slowly evolved into their own god-like species well before the plague on the iron tribe, it would explain why we didn’t see a single refugee from the tribe out and about on Bara Magna, i.e. Sahmad, Telluris, as we did with the iron tribe which lacked the time to evolve. It would also shed some new light on this piece of Spherus Magnan folklore, which may or may not be entirely true at face value:

I'll admit that I'm having trouble understanding what exactly the theory here is (stupid short attention span), but it seems that bonesiii is suggesting that the Great Beings are the survivors of the Iron Tribe Disaster. What exactly would that have to do with whether or not there was another metal tribe? Whose existence we've never heard of before.

 

Unless you mean, that it was only a few of the Iron Tribers who were turned GB by Annona long before the Iron Tribe Disaster.

[Azani]

 

There is also the possibility that the great beings are survivors of an earlier tribe which was wiped out by Annona, or by an asteroid, earthquake, or flood, many thousands of years before the Iron Tribe was decimated. It could have been so long before the iron tribe disaster that the survivors had begun to evolve to a form of being in which they could not be targeted by Annona. Maybe they were members of a silicon tribe, or a copper tribe. If their race had become outcasts from the other tribes, and slowly evolved into their own god-like species well before the plague on the iron tribe, it would explain why we didn’t see a single refugee from the tribe out and about on Bara Magna, i.e. Sahmad, Telluris, as we did with the iron tribe which lacked the time to evolve. It would also shed some new light on this piece of Spherus Magnan folklore, which may or may not be entirely true at face value:

I'll admit that I'm having trouble understanding what exactly the theory here is (stupid short attention span), but it seems that bonesiii is suggesting that the Great Beings are the survivors of the Iron Tribe Disaster. What exactly would that have to do with whether or not there was another metal tribe? Whose existence we've never heard of before.

 

Unless you mean, that it was only a few of the Iron Tribers who were turned GB by Annona long before the Iron Tribe Disaster.

 

Sorry; I was saying that there very easily could have been another tribe which was associated with another type of metal, the members of which were targeted by Annona and went on to become the great beings. We wouldn't have heard much from them, either, and perhaps they would have evolved over millions of years into a higher form of being. I'd think that the tribe which became the great beings wouldn't leave behind any remaining members, such as Sahmad and Telluris, who weren't considered great beings.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Artakha's Nephew

[fishers64]

But didn't the Great Beings exist before their contact with Annona? From what I know, it's totally possible that they were called "Great Beings" before Annona came along. So it could be like:

 

250,000 years ago -->Warriors of the Iron Tribe become known for their high levels of inventiveness, earning the name "Great Beings".

103,000 years ago -->The Great Beings come into contact with Annona, thereby expanding their inventive powers.

 

Also I would have to back-verify those dates to be sure, but even if, that could still be the case.

 

That aside, I do like this theory, as it nicely answers the question of "What happened to the Iron Glatorian?" and solves the origin of the GBs. It also explains how the GBs came in contact with Annona - and so it ties it all up and puts a nice bow on it.

 

It's still entirely possible that there were no Iron Tribe Warriors to begin with, since elemental variations aren't stone-set like the MU. Sahmad explains his area to be at peace, so it's possible that the warriors were elsewhere when the plague struck. Although with such a valuable thing like iron around, you would think that there would be at least a few guards. It's also possible that the warriors all succumbed to the plague and Sahmad didn't think it was important to mention.

 

It's also possible that, with the peace and such, the Iron Tribe Warriors got bored. (Hey! Let's go invent something brilliant! lol)

 

In further case, the "higher class of Glatorian" might extend across all branches of Glatorian, but your theory might suggest higher proportions of former Iron Tribe, without ruling out other Glatorian groups. The Iron Tribe's wares were refined in Vulcanus, which could mean that there would be more Fire Glatorian in there as well. This tells me that the Iron Tribe had frequent contact with the Fire Tribe, at least.

 

And what about the organics in the MU? Wouldn't jungle speak to that? Why rule it out? Maybe one or two?

 

 

Having most of them be former Fire or Iron would explain all the robots, but wasn't there organic mods done as well? Consider the Element Lords. Protodermis is a chemical construct. Granted, chemicals are used in mining, sure, but wouldn't they have to come from somewhere...Tajun? (That's the flimsiest...buuut you see all the water in the MU...) None of this evidence rules out the idea that the former ITW did it all - after all, they could have branched out into other sciences......but why, when they did so, would they not consult other Glatorian for guidance in those areas? If they were truly seeking to be creative, why not expand their creativity by allowing more ideas in?

 

Eventually the fame, etc got to them enough for them to closet themselves away, especially after contact with Annona, but in the beginning I think they would have been more open to new ideas and the people who brought them, and might have added them to their ranks.

 

In any event, I think the creativity as a shield against Annona dream-stealing is spot on. Sahmad might not be the best example, but Telluris with the armor-paint and the Skopio definitely qualifies. Although Sahmad did make the "slaver" business model which allowed him to survive for 100,000 years, so yeah.

 

But I like the "higher proportion = Iron Tribe" better than the "They are all Iron Tribe" if only because Iron was refined in Vulcanus.

[JAG18]

According to Greg, the Iron Tribe did have warriors, who shot bolts of iron from the weapons, it's here in the old Farshtey Feed. Whose sources unfortunately were obliterated long ago.

 

On a somewhat related note, while looking for confirmation about the Iron Glatorian I come across something interesting in this entry:

 

 

Only Agori of the Iron Tribe contracted the dreaming plague. Greg would not agree that this is because the pathogen affected only Iron Tribe Agori. It is possible for Glatorian or other species to contract the virus.

 

Still, it's possible that the Iron Glatorian became the Great Beings before the Dreaming Plague, in which case the above quote shouldn't affect bones' theory too much.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, helps to actually check the timeline, huh? Didn't bother since this isn't something I will actually use either way. Parts of this I'd say are debunked, then, esp. the part about why they conceal their faces under hoods.

 

It still might work in reverse -- Iron Tribe is more scientific ergo more dangerous to Annona thus gets attacked more often? After failing to "go for the head" first, she later realizes the rest of the tribe might be more vulnerable and lessen the risk to herself by killing most of them. Maybe.

 

Or, maybe the GBs are an entirely separate tribe but more closely related to Iron, so the core of this might work that way without actually ever being called "Iron Tribe." Actually, the whole "let's name our tribe after an element" thing might have happened after they came to rule in the first place.

 

I like your idea, fishers, that they might be a percentage from multiple tribes, possibly just more from Iron than others.

 

 

 

To be clear, there were Iron "Glatorian" (pre-gladiator-system, though), because Telluris was one. BS01 mentions that others died of the plague. The GBs couldn't be the entire 'warrior' class of this tribe; I meant only that they might be a percentage of them. And now that I see the timing there, it's even possible they left the tribe long enough ago that others repopulated the amount.

 

To other points:

 

-Annona's timing of the attacks might have to do with when she becomes hungry. She told Sahmad that her feasting on the Iron Tribe satisfied her hunger for "many years" -- how many is many isn't specified; it could mean centuries and millenia worth (esp. after she failed to feed on the GBs; maybe she wasn't completely hungry then yet). We don't know how much time it takes her to become hungry again, or whether she can get by feeding on dreams of animals for a while, etc.

 

-I agree they could be survivors of an earlier unknown tribe wiped out by Annona, etc. I have often wondered if Annona had fed on others before but had just spread them out so much that people didn't get as upset about it as with the Iron Tribe all out attack. Or, it might be that prior to those times she only fed on dreams of animals, only attacked the GBs because she felt threatened by them, and that might have given her a taste for dreams of sapients, so Iron might be the first group fatally attacked. If they were survivors of a much earlier dream plague style attack, they might still have hidden their identities for that reason, but then we'd have to explain how everybody forgot about it by the time of the Iron attack so I doubt it.

 

-"Iron" is presumably meant to be poetic of "metal" in general just like in the MU, though I'm less sure of that. If so, copper would be under Iron's attention. But not necessarily.

 

-Another crazy idea I had that I didn't bring up in the firstpost -- what if they're Skrall? Skrall who didn't want to be warriors? That could also explain the concealing hoods. If people knew that, they definitely wouldn't be so eager for them to be rulers, given the antagonism of most Skrall. And the Skrall have such huge population numbers it's even easier to believe a percentage might be able to disappear long ago until forgotten about and then reintroduce themselves into society as a mystery.

 

-I don't agree that Sahmad would have recognized them if they were people he knew. How would he? That would be the point of the cloaks. But that part of the theory seems mostly impossible now due to the timeline. I suppose if he heard their voices he might recognize them (or any relatives might), but they could think of that and not speak around them (maybe even invent tech to alter their voices).

[Quisoves Potoo]

-Another crazy idea I had that I didn't bring up in the firstpost -- what if they're Skrall? Skrall who didn't want to be warriors? That could also explain the concealing hoods. If people knew that, they definitely wouldn't be so eager for them to be rulers, given the antagonism of most Skrall. And the Skrall have such huge population numbers it's even easier to believe a percentage might be able to disappear long ago until forgotten about and then reintroduce themselves into society as a mystery.

 

While the Skrall certainly seem to be closer to the Great Beings than the tribes of Spherus Magna, the Great Beings seem far too advanced to simply be a cabal of scientific, peaceful Skrall. Technology like that takes time. And it seems unlikely that such an experiment could survive long enough or maintain enough resources to achieve the Great Being's level of abilities.

It is also worth noting that according to the Farshtey Feed the Skrall were not an invasive tribe as of 265,000 years ago. Mind you, I don't think we know how long the Great Beings have been around, but given the long life spans of Spherus Magna inhabitants and what is presumably a correspondingly slow rate of societal progress, I find it unlikely that the Great Beings have existed as such for less than 265,000 years.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[fishers64]

Mind you, I don't think we know how long the Great Beings have been around, but given the long life spans of Spherus Magna inhabitants and what is presumably a correspondingly slow rate of societal progress, I find it unlikely that the Great Beings have existed as such for less than 265,000 years.

 

Keep in mind that the tragedy of the Shattering halted all societal progress for 100,000 years and threw any previous development out the window. They could have been really progressive before the Shattering - we just didn't see it. The Glat/Agori could have all been really inventive, with the GBs as the best of the best. (In fact, that might have been part of why they were shocked into barely surviving - all of their creations/innovations had been destroyed. Why bother innovating if it's just going to be taken away/destroyed?)

 

Even then, 165,000 years is a really long time to improve your inventing skills. Think of how much us humans have progressed in just 2,000 years. Even if their societal progression was about half of ours, they would have the capacity to innovate beyond our technological levels - and they did, so far beyond. Why would they need more time to do it?

Edited March 26, 2014 by fishers64

[Azani]

 

-Another crazy idea I had that I didn't bring up in the firstpost -- what if they're Skrall? Skrall who didn't want to be warriors? That could also explain the concealing hoods. If people knew that, they definitely wouldn't be so eager for them to be rulers, given the antagonism of most Skrall. And the Skrall have such huge population numbers it's even easier to believe a percentage might be able to disappear long ago until forgotten about and then reintroduce themselves into society as a mystery.

While the Skrall certainly seem to be closer to the Great Beings than the tribes of Spherus Magna, the Great Beings seem far too advanced to simply be a cabal of scientific, peaceful Skrall. Technology like that takes time. And it seems unlikely that such an experiment could survive long enough or maintain enough resources to achieve the Great Being's level of abilities.

It is also worth noting that according to the Farshtey Feed the Skrall were not an invasive tribe as of 265,000 years ago. Mind you, I don't think we know how long the Great Beings have been around, but given the long life spans of Spherus Magna inhabitants and what is presumably a correspondingly slow rate of societal progress, I find it unlikely that the Great Beings have existed as such for less than 265,000 years.

 

I wouldn't be so certain about the Skrall; it's shown in the comic Fall and Rise of the Skrall that their fortress north of the Black Spike Mountains was extremely large, well-defended, and futuristic-looking, and it was constructed entirely after the Shattering occurred and their former empire fell apart. Furthermore, there isn't any reason why the long lifespans of the Glatorian, Agori, and Skrall species would limit or reduce their rate of sociological and scientific advancement. Also, the mental and physical sharpness of characters who are relatively elderly to the Glatorian and Agori, such as Ackar, indicates that they age at a rate similar to how a human would with the same lifespan. There's no reason why each Glatorian, Agori, or Skrall couldn't remain productive members of their respective societies for tens of thousands of years, and if an individual or a group of individuals were able to continue with a project, uninterrupted, for that long, then it's likely that their rate of advancement would be much faster than ours.

[Zox Tomana]

One question: if the GB's were of the Iron Tribe warrior class, why would Annona ever attack any population of the Glatorian specie ever again? I mean, she tried to feed on their minds, but they basically fed on hers while she couldn't do anything to them. As I recall, all Glatorian except those of the Skrall are the same species, just aligned with different tribes. The GB's could be a Glatorian-like Species, like the Skrall, or an offshoot like the Vorox, but I don't think they'd fit into any of those categories so neatly. Given the extreme lifespans, wouldn't there be someone who remembers, or at least remembers a story told by their parents, of how the Great Being "used to be just like us"?

[Quisoves Potoo]

Keep in mind that the tragedy of the Shattering halted all societal progress for 100,000 years and threw any previous development out the window. They could have been really progressive before the Shattering - we just didn't see it. The Glat/Agori could have all been really inventive, with the GBs as the best of the best. (In fact, that might have been part of why they were shocked into barely surviving - all of their creations/innovations had been destroyed. Why bother innovating if it's just going to be taken away/destroyed?)

As cataclysmic as the Shattering certainly was, it couldn't have destroyed all technology and creations on Bara Magna. If that were the case it seems highly unlikely that any life or culture would have survived at all. Granted, we know comparatively little about Spherus Magna prior to the Shattering, but what we do know certainly suggests that a large number of Glatorian and Agori survived and that most Glatorians and Agori lived in tribes. Tribal culture does not suggest any great sophistication, and as far as we know, most of the fantastic technology on Spherus Magna comes from the Great Beings.

 

 

 

I wouldn't be so certain about the Skrall; it's shown in the comic Fall and Rise of the Skrall that their fortress north of the Black Spike Mountains was extremely large, well-defended, and futuristic-looking, and it was constructed entirely after the Shattering occurred and their former empire fell apart.

 

The Skrall may be more advanced than the other inhabitants of Bara Magna, but they are still by all accounts pre-industrial. Their primary weapons are still swords.

 

 

 

There isn't any reason why the long lifespans of the Glatorian, Agori, and Skrall species would limit or reduce their rate of sociological and scientific advancement. Also, the mental and physical sharpness of characters who are relatively elderly to the Glatorian and Agori, such as Ackar, indicates that they age at a rate similar to how a human would with the same lifespan. There's no reason why each Glatorian, Agori, or Skrall couldn't remain productive members of their respective societies for tens of thousands of years, and if an individual or a group of individuals were able to continue with a project, uninterrupted, for that long, then it's likely that their rate of advancement would be much faster than ours.

On the contrary, imagine if you had a lifespan of over a hundred-thouasnd years. You certainly wouldn't have the same incentives for productivity when you knew you had millennia upon millennia to live. The urgency brought about by the specter of death would be far delayed, possibly non-existent. You might even look forward with joy for death after a while. You probably would ultimately achieve more than if you lived only about a hundred years, but you would likely want to stop and smell the roses as well, meaning slower progress on your part.

[fishers64]

 

Keep in mind that the tragedy of the Shattering halted all societal progress for 100,000 years and threw any previous development out the window. They could have been really progressive before the Shattering - we just didn't see it. The Glat/Agori could have all been really inventive, with the GBs as the best of the best. (In fact, that might have been part of why they were shocked into barely surviving - all of their creations/innovations had been destroyed. Why bother innovating if it's just going to be taken away/destroyed?)

As cataclysmic as the Shattering certainly was, it couldn't have destroyed all technology and creations on Bara Magna. If that were the case it seems highly unlikely that any life or culture would have survived at all. Granted, we know comparatively little about Spherus Magna prior to the Shattering, but what we do know certainly suggests that a large number of Glatorian and Agori survived and that most Glatorians and Agori lived in tribes. Tribal culture does not suggest any great sophistication, and as far as we know, most of the fantastic technology on Spherus Magna comes from the Great Beings.

 

 

Tribal culture indicates "lack of sophistication" in humans, but how do we know that's the same in Glatorian/Agori? Besides, it's less like tribes/family groups in the traditional sense of the word, and more like grouping by occupations. All the miners in one place, all the smelters in another, all the food/clothing makers in another, etc.

 

Further, there was a whole bunch of ruins of technology everywhere. Surely the Agori or Glatorian must have had some of the technology in the villages, perhaps as mass produced stuff. And if it was everywhere, why wouldn't an Agori see an improvement somewhere and maybe act on it? (Remember, the Shattering was so bad that it turned a forest into a desert, remember? Technology? Peanut brittle.)

 

Also previous accounts made it seem like a whole bunch of people were killed in the Shattering, if not in the war that proceeded it. If all your bright young souls go off to battle and die, and you don't have too many new ones, and the last innovative thing you tried to do split your entire planet in three pieces...well yeah.

 

And the Glatorian/Agori wanted to be like the Great Beings, I think. Why else would they try to tap the EP as a source of power? They wanted a better life for themselves, and in the presence of such great innovators, why wouldn't they think of using their own creativity? That makes no sense.

 

 

There isn't any reason why the long lifespans of the Glatorian, Agori, and Skrall species would limit or reduce their rate of sociological and scientific advancement. Also, the mental and physical sharpness of characters who are relatively elderly to the Glatorian and Agori, such as Ackar, indicates that they age at a rate similar to how a human would with the same lifespan. There's no reason why each Glatorian, Agori, or Skrall couldn't remain productive members of their respective societies for tens of thousands of years, and if an individual or a group of individuals were able to continue with a project, uninterrupted, for that long, then it's likely that their rate of advancement would be much faster than ours.

On the contrary, imagine if you had a lifespan of over a hundred-thouasnd years. You certainly wouldn't have the same incentives for productivity when you knew you had millennia upon millennia to live. The urgency brought about by the specter of death would be far delayed, possibly non-existent. You might even look forward with joy for death after a while. You probably would ultimately achieve more than if you lived only about a hundred years, but you would likely want to stop and smell the roses as well, meaning slower progress on your part.

 

I disagree with this. Most human innovation is because the previous generation built on the previous innovative steps, and the high innovation turnover is because of the high speed of new generations.

 

Consider Bill Gates, for example. He innovated in his younger years, but now that he has enough money to tide him over to his quick and impending death, is he still innovating? No, because his death will just take it away. Better to hire the next generation of young-whipper-snappers who don't have enough to tide them to the grave and let them do it for you.

 

I also think that the amount of innovation I am motivated to do is inversely proportional to the time I have to enjoy it. If I had 100,000 years to live, would I want to spend it living a primitive life, barely surviving and running from my enemies? Or would I rather live in a sophisticated mansion with zillions of experimental technologies, a refrigerator full of Sprite, and 5.0 surround sound? Not to mention the time to enact Teridaxian plots to destroy my enemies, travel the world, and so on? (And that is yet the beginning of all of such devious plans.) Point is, why not have 100,000 years of comfort and adventure as opposed to 100,000 years of misery and torment? Wouldn't you be more motivated to improve on your life, seeing as you're stuck with it for 100,000 years? And don't tell me "they wouldn't know it any other way". They had the Great Beings. They had seen the technology. While some of them might have been content, I doubt all of them would take the system lying down.

 

It's possible that those who didn't would be assimilated into the GB group, but yeah.

[bonesiii]

I'm not entirely sure how we got on the tangents we're now on, but wanted to say I largely agree with your latest post, fishers -- but gotta agree with QP about the lifespans point at the end. It's not really mutually exclusive with what you're saying, though. I think the main issue after the Shattering was simply economics, plus that the GBs did abandon them and they were much more inventive by nature (and nurture, via Annona despite Annona lol). The resources to support a luxurious high-tech life were not there, so they settled for a stable status quo.

 

 

Zox, I largely agree with your post, but notice that that point applies regardless of who the Great Beings were (assuming Greg's "feeling" that they are relatives of Glatorian, or at least the entire Agori family of species in general, is the case). I think that might actually be part of why she took so long to attack the Iron Tribe (some quick arithmetic gives 162,000+ years); maybe it was a combination of time needed to think of the idea I mentioned earlier, that other Agori who aren't as smart as the GBs might still be feasible victims, and just overpowering hunger (and maybe getting tired of the dreams of animals again).

 

If the GBs are indeed related to the Iron Tribe, or of it, or even just if the Iron Tribe is also more scientifically minded by coincidence, I think the possibility remains that she chose both them and the GBs as her targets because they were both higher threats to herself. Make sense?

 

 

Another tangent that came to mind while typing the above and thinking about the earliest timeline details -- a while ago in S&T we were trying to figure out what was meant by Annona seeing them coming somehow. I forget now what the exact wording was or where that comes from; I don't see it on the Annona or GB pages of BS01. But maybe it was that she figured for a long time that Agori society would eventually get organized, and begin to 'tame the wilderness' which would eventually lead to them being threats to her somehow or another. Since it's stated on the GB page that they were organizing the Agori. Remove the organizers and Agori might become more like primitives living in or alongside the wild again, thus not serious threats.

 

So, the first attack, on the GBs, might be in response to that. When that backfired and made things worse (Agori now being organized and tech-ified more than ever before), she eventually thinks of the idea of going after the most organized/scientific-minded of the Agori tribes instead. And regardless of the relation of the GBs to the Iron Tribe, it makes sense the Iron Tribe would be Target #2 on this reasoning.

 

Would we all agree with that, at least? (As a theory of course.)

[ALVIS]

 

I existed before your Great Beings were born. I sensed their coming and wondered if they might pose some threat to me. I even tried to touch them with madness, but their minds were too... strange. Their minds fed on mine. They took the dreams from me and that energy inspired them to greater and greater feats of creation, and I was forced to hide in the depths of Spherus Magna.

 

Sahmad's Tale, chapter 5.