Why is Jovan on the Red Star?

[CeeCee]

This may be me getting confused with Bionicle lore here, but why is Jovan or any Turaga for that matter on the red star? As far as my understanding goes a Toa becomes a Turaga when they have completed their destiny, so what purpose do they serve any more in the eyes if the great beings. Also why Lhikan? I always thought it was his destiny to sacrifice himself for Vakama to set if a chain of events that led to what we were first introduced to. Also Jaller. Yes you could argue that he was destined to become Toa too but when he sacrificed himself for Takua, shouldn't that have been his fate? I would have preferred it if Takuta would have brought him back from the darkness so you could have a story line that essentially makes him the only being I the MU with out a destiny. That would have been interesting.

 

I'm dire there is some logical explanation for this but still.

[Pomegranate]

Even once someone has completed their Destiny, they can still work and contribute and if everyone stays dead once their Duty is done, the MU's population would dwindle. The point of the Red Star was to pretty much recycle the inhabitants of the MU due to the limited resources of the robot, if I'm not wrong.

Edit: That's more or less exactly what the BS01 entry on it says

beings who died inside the Matoran Universe were transported to the Red Star where they would be placed in a new body and sent back, in order to conserve the finite resources that the Great Spirit Robot possessed.

 

Beings who died in the Matoran Universe were intended to be transported to the Red Star, where they would be placed in a new body, and then be returned back to the robot in order to continue working.

The MU inhabitants weren't meant to develop their culture and self awareness that they did, so ideally whenever this happened nobody would really pay it any mind. (Unless having a new body comes with having a new identity, in which case nobody would have even realized in the first place)

As for Jaller's sacrifice, can you elaborate on what you mean? Do you think he should have been transported away, or...? I'm unclear on what you're asking there.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Pomegranate

[CeeCee]

I guess that would make sense, although where are other beings that died like Botar and Matoro? As for Jaller I meant that if his destiny was to save Takua and sacrifice himself then I think it would make an interesting story arc if Takita brought Jaller back from wherever dead beings go who don't go to the red star. In a place where every one has a destiny for Jaller this would be the ultimate curse. You could have him contemplate if it was real or the Bionicle version of .

[bonesiii]

One of the earliest Greg quotes, cited in the official guide, answers this:

Fulfilling your destiny does not mean you cannot be revived. We have seen plenty of characters fulfill their destiny and yet live on. The point of the red star is basically that even Mata Nui is not self-sustaining if it loses too many beings (to an accident, say), the same way you could not survive if you lost too many blood cells without replacing them.

 

For example, Turaga tend to be important leaders. To lose your leaders is generally bad. Think of it as losing important control chips in a computer that govern other functions; it makes sense to repair those, instead of having to build entirely new ones. Especially since learned experience is a major factor in efficiency (as the GBs would think of it).

 

It also sounds like you've formed a misconception that people only have one destiny. Even if they do, I don't know that it was ever stated that Jaller was destined to die there. I never got that impression -- certainly not as his main destiny. As you say, he had a destiny still to lead the Toa Inika, so you sort of answered your own question there too. But who says destiny only cares about one thing in people's entire lives? Destiny is not intended to rob your life of meaning once it's fulfilled -- that's not at all the point of it.

 

Basically, this isn't LOST.

 

Edit:

 

I guess that would make sense, although where are other beings that died like Botar and Matoro?

It sounds like you would do well to just give the official guide a quick read-through; those are basic questions answered there:

 

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/11421-official-red-star-guide/

 

As for Jaller I meant that if his destiny was to save Takua and sacrifice himself then I think it would make an interesting story arc if Takita brought Jaller back from wherever dead beings go who don't go to the red star.

First, this sounds like a nice derivative story idea, but not something Bionicle should have led with. That movie was introducing the whole idea that revivals are possible. To then launch into particular related ideas right away would have felt very rushed. And we didn't know about the RS at all at the time anyways. Sounds like something better saved for a post-RS story, if at all (it might seem too controversial for LEGO to touch on).

 

Second, this seems to misunderstand how the revival system works. For one thing, as an MU inhabitant, and assuming the RS could detect him where he was, he wouldn't have gone to any such other place. He was revived without the RS because Takutanuva revived him before the auto-delay ran out, we believe. Alternatively, it's possible the RS doesn't scan that area as it's outside the giant robot (we don't know yet if that counts as Matoran Universe; it is protodermic and touching the robot, but we don't know if that's good enough). In either case, he hadn't gone anywhere yet; his spirit was stored in the mask, awaiting revival (short answer).

 

So, if such a story was done, I think it would have to be about an Agori (or relative), not an MU being, revived by some other means, or perhaps an MU being clearly outside the MU, likely long after the normal time-delay, etc.

 

 

Also, to your idea that Jaller could have had a personal struggle with not having a destiny, this forgets that most beings don't know what their destinies are, if any, until they're fulfilled; he couldn't know such a thing and wouldn't expect to -- and that destiny is adaptive anyways; if he's alive, destiny should find some use for him. (Besides, it would have been destiny for him to be revived, right?)

Edited April 16, 2014 by bonesiii

[SarracenianKaijin]

Because Red Star, as it is, is a respawn hall and inside it holds the algorithm that has written down the lives of every single living thing on the world.

Decisions are not actually by the people. Characters can't die unless they fulfill this vague "destiny". Warrior who has lost everything cannot make the final, desperate decision to end his suffering.

 

Red Star is a cold machine, designed by the insane and sadistic lords of science, to be the judge of who lives and who dies. The higher power that controls everyone and everything. No one knows or can do anything about it.

 

Everyone are basically puppets for the amoral Beings. No free will, no decisions.

 

Only destiny.

[Chro]

I guess that would make sense, although where are other beings that died like Botar and Matoro?

Botar's on the Star. Matoro is dead entirely.

 

 

Because Red Star, as it is, is a respawn hall and inside it holds the algorithm that has written down the lives of every single living thing on the world.

Decisions are not actually by the people. Characters can't die unless they fulfill this vague "destiny". Warrior who has lost everything cannot make the final, desperate decision to end his suffering.

Red Star is a cold machine, designed by the insane and sadistic lords of science, to be the judge of who lives and who dies. The higher power that controls everyone and everything. No one knows or can do anything about it.

Everyone are basically puppets for the amoral Beings. No free will, no decisions.

Only destiny.

Dude, what are you talking about? O.o

[SarracenianKaijin]

 

Because Red Star, as it is, is a respawn hall and inside it holds the algorithm that has written down the lives of every single living thing on the world.

Decisions are not actually by the people. Characters can't die unless they fulfill this vague "destiny". Warrior who has lost everything cannot make the final, desperate decision to end his suffering.

Red Star is a cold machine, designed by the insane and sadistic lords of science, to be the judge of who lives and who dies. The higher power that controls everyone and everything. No one knows or can do anything about it.

Everyone are basically puppets for the amoral Beings. No free will, no decisions.

Only destiny.

Dude, what are you talking about? O.o

 

Talking about what the Red Star represents in the story.

Edited April 16, 2014 by SarracenianKaijin

[Chro]

I personally feel like you're reading too much into it. XD

[SarracenianKaijin]

I personally feel like you're reading too much into it. XD

There's never such a thing as "reading too much into it". Only "not reading into it enough."

 

 

Most of the rest has been cleared up in recent posts on BZP.

Not really. Too much of a blanket statement that actually worsen the situation.

Edited April 16, 2014 by SarracenianKaijin

[bonesiii]

I think he may mean more that you may be reading the wrong things into it; that weren't actually intended.

 

Although I agree with some of what you said in that post, namely the cold machine sentence. (As how Matoran could now look at it; I imagine Kopaka might be thinking something like that... or maybe Pohatu lol; Kopaka tends to like cold stuff but yeah). Most of the rest has been cleared up in recent posts on BZP. But even those things, I do think characters could mistakenly believe. Although, I'm not sure how you meant that to answer the topic question, actually...

Edited April 16, 2014 by bonesiii

[Yagami Kumi]

Wait, if Voya Nui dislodged from the Southern Continent and blew through the Great Spirit Robot's body and he died...wouldn't he be out of the Matoran Universe then, or would the Red Star still be able to detect him?

[bonesiii]

Well, to be clear, I'm not aware that Greg has actually confirmed Jovan IS on the RS. He likely died inside the giant robot, when the island collided with the ceiling of the Southern Continent's dome, although the time delay would mean his body would be on the surface ocean by the time it was teleported up (if it was). My previous answers have been more about the question of why Turaga get revived as a rule -- Jovan might not have been.

 

Lately I've been thinking the RS's scanner might work like a flashlight beam -- aimed at the giant robot, so it's intended to only grab bodies inside it, but any beings above it might still get scanned because they're in the path of the scanner beam. Make sense maybe?

[The Doctor U]

Red Star seems very horrible thing because it makes MU beings lives pointless. You can not make any decisions about your life because even fullwilling your destiny doesn't give you peace. Even after traumatic death you just have to come back to life and continue your life. Seems very sadistic if you think about it. It would be better if the Great Beigns decided to recycle dead beings materials to new beings like atoms in our universe create new things when we die, but no. They wanted to give them immortal life.

 

I don't like this Greg's idea to make Red Star seem like cheap external hard drive which connects to the God via USB-port. It takes away all the mystery and they didn't even entablish it in the story etc. religious practices about the star or other things. I am so glad that most of my friends doesn't think that Red Star revelation and most of 09-11 story additions are canon.

[Aho]

Well, keep in mind that the inhabitants of the MU were not meant to gain sentience... So even if a Matoran realized that his/her dead comrade randomly showed up a week after he/she died, they theoretically wouldn't have cared. Additionally, since they were not truly alive in the beginning, the GB's probably didn't see it as cruelty, just another way to make sure that Mata Nui always had a good, steady number of workers to maintain him

Edited April 18, 2014 by Aho

[bonesiii]

To add to Aho's points, it's also rather strange to see it as "sadistic" to let people keep on living as they would have anyways had their lives not been cut short by accidents or murders. BTW, LEGO is unlikely to touch on religious themes anyways as that can be controversial, but Greg did say that after the Sendback broke, they saw dead people as becoming one with Mata Nui. Also, they don't live forever, they just have long lifespans. The Agori naturally live that long and don't seem any worse off for it. It is not yet certain whether the RS does fix old age issues; Greg has said that they can die of old age, but when somebody pointed out this possibility on the LEGO.com topic, he found it an interesting point but did not give a certain answer one way or the other. He may decide it later. For now, I would tend to assume they probably die of old age eventually and aren't brought back.

[SarracenianKaijin]

Well, keep in mind that the inhabitants of the MU were not meant to gain sentience... So even if a Matoran realized that his/her dead comrade randomly showed up a week after he/she died, they theoretically wouldn't have cared. Additionally, since they were not truly alive in the beginning, the GB's probably didn't see it as cruelty, just another way to make sure that Mata Nui always had a good, steady number of workers to maintain him

 

I don't see how this makes the thing any better, other than completely render everything that has happened in the story dangerously insignificant.

[Zox Tomana]

 

Well, keep in mind that the inhabitants of the MU were not meant to gain sentience... So even if a Matoran realized that his/her dead comrade randomly showed up a week after he/she died, they theoretically wouldn't have cared. Additionally, since they were not truly alive in the beginning, the GB's probably didn't see it as cruelty, just another way to make sure that Mata Nui always had a good, steady number of workers to maintain him

I don't see how this makes the thing any better, other than completely render everything that has happened in the story dangerously insignificant.

 

This has been brought up dozens of times. How does the Red Star make any character's sacrifice any less significant? Lhikan didn't know he would be revivied. Neither did Jaller or any other Toa we've heard of sacrificing themselves. Matoro can't be revived. If I take a bullet for somebody, and live to tell the tale, does it make the fact that there was a life saved any less significant than if I had died? Does it require death to make a heroic act worth the effort? to be of any significance in the grand scheme of things? There are many beliefs in the real world about an afterlife, but even if you and everyone around you believes that you will only be "moving on" and come right back to life in a new incarnation, or in heaven, I don't know of any culture that would see you giving your life for another as being insignificant.

 

In any case, this is off topic. If this is something you're concerned about, there is a Red Star topic out there, or you could start your own topic.

 

As to why Jovan is on the Red Star, I think the reasons given cover it pretty well. Note, too, that even though he had become a Turaga--having fulfilled the destiny of helping to revive Mata Nui after the Matoran Civil War nearly ruined things--he was still acting in a useful and meaningful capacity to lead the Voya Nui Matoran. Just because that one function had been fulfilled did not mean there was no more work to do.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Zox

[Pomegranate]

 

Well, keep in mind that the inhabitants of the MU were not meant to gain sentience... So even if a Matoran realized that his/her dead comrade randomly showed up a week after he/she died, they theoretically wouldn't have cared. Additionally, since they were not truly alive in the beginning, the GB's probably didn't see it as cruelty, just another way to make sure that Mata Nui always had a good, steady number of workers to maintain him

 

I don't see how this makes the thing any better, other than completely render everything that has happened in the story dangerously insignificant.

 

That's why it was written from that beginning that the function failed and nobody was returned to the realm of the living, to ensure that nothing that happened in the story was dangerously insignificant. Even if characters who died were revived in the Red Star, it doesn't invalidate all their actions. The other characters certainly don't know they're up there.

 

The fact that the MU was meant to be a boring place where mindless biomechanical beings kept a planet sized robot in good condition, but those beings ended up developing a whole culture and all that jazz, is really cool and I think that's what matters

 

As for the cruelty, nobody is saying that the Great Beings were very nice. They seem like pretty messed up folk, they certainly don't have a very high regard for life. They created a giant living robot filled to the brim tiny living robots that had the abilities to create their own little living robots so that the giant robot could drift in space for hundreds of thousands of years to maybe someday reform a planet. They could've used all those resources to evacuate everyone in the first place. They seem like cold scientists rather than benevolent godlike figures. Of course they're gonna create a horrible immortal world, they just don't really care, especially cause the inhabitants aren't supposed to even be aware of that sort of thing, and it is in theory really really efficient.

[ALVIS]

They also turned the Sand Tribe into freakish half-beasts without their consent. Oh, and the kicker is that they're horrible sexists, if we're going to begrudgingly admit that Orde's story in The Yesterday Quest is canon. Basically, the Great Beings we know of are pretty suckish individuals. (With the possible exception of Angonce, who seems likable enough.)

[SarracenianKaijin]

 

 

Well, keep in mind that the inhabitants of the MU were not meant to gain sentience... So even if a Matoran realized that his/her dead comrade randomly showed up a week after he/she died, they theoretically wouldn't have cared. Additionally, since they were not truly alive in the beginning, the GB's probably didn't see it as cruelty, just another way to make sure that Mata Nui always had a good, steady number of workers to maintain him

 

I don't see how this makes the thing any better, other than completely render everything that has happened in the story dangerously insignificant.

 

That's why it was written from that beginning that the function failed and nobody was returned to the realm of the living, to ensure that nothing that happened in the story was dangerously insignificant. Even if characters who died were revived in the Red Star, it doesn't invalidate all their actions. The other characters certainly don't know they're up there.

 

The fact that the MU was meant to be a boring place where mindless biomechanical beings kept a planet sized robot in good condition, but those beings ended up developing a whole culture and all that jazz, is really cool and I think that's what matters

 

As for the cruelty, nobody is saying that the Great Beings were very nice. They seem like pretty messed up folk, they certainly don't have a very high regard for life. They created a giant living robot filled to the brim tiny living robots that had the abilities to create their own little living robots so that the giant robot could drift in space for hundreds of thousands of years to maybe someday reform a planet. They could've used all those resources to evacuate everyone in the first place. They seem like cold scientists rather than benevolent godlike figures. Of course they're gonna create a horrible immortal world, they just don't really care, especially cause the inhabitants aren't supposed to even be aware of that sort of thing, and it is in theory really really efficient.

 

 

No it still kinda does. See, the problem here is that these are revelations (because I feel generous enough not to call them "retcons" right now) removes all sense of the extraordinary and unique. When the characters and story you've been following is a results of a completely different story that has not been foreshadowed in any way (Hints of Mata Nui being a machine god doesn't foreshadow anything about Spherus Magna) and are in fact nigh insignificant compared to that story, that becomes a problem.

A good example and microcosm of this would be the revelation of the Bionicle Symbol's origin. What was this huge focal point in the belief system of the main civilization we've been following, the philosophy which people have fought and died for... revealed to be some planets we've never seen before surrounded by purple clouds.

Does that revelation improve the story for you? I didn't think so.

 

The worst part of this is how the story makes no attempt to deal with the ramifications of having the main characters we've been following for nearly a decade be a result of a rubbish pseudo-scientific "glitch in the system". Its just a random plot point that at the end improves nothing and only is there to be arbitary "completition" for the anoraks. The sort of people who scream about at the end unimportant details like Dalek timelines and such.

 

Also doesn't help how the "real heroes" that the one's we've been following are based, the Agori and Glatorians, are completely dull and uninteresting and are only there as bad replacements that the story insists are "the originals" in vain attempt to make you care.

 

Who really benefits by the inclusion of Spherus Magna and Agori? How do they improve anything in Bionicle prior?. Can you imagine yourself going back to play MNOG and think how much the revelation of Red Star being a jetback-backup disk improved it?

 

Oh yes, that jetpack-backup disk, that brings us back to the Red Star. As I already said, outside of the factor of how every decisions made by the characters has been rendered insignificant, death loses its meaning when we know that the characters die but are going to eventually be, just as they are, thrown back to the world all fine. They are, quite thematically fitting, all slaves without agency to that system, Jovan included, left to fulfill some arbitrary artificial "destiny" never elaborated upon.

Its not reincarnation, since in reincarnation there are changes which makes death more tragically beautiful. Jovan doesn't come out as different guy, he comes back as just Jovan again, like nothing had happened.

Here, death is basically a respawn-point. Its a delay, not the final destination.

And don't bring up how "the characters within the story didn't know about this". We are not the characters in the story, we are people who reading this story. And the story just doesn't work.

 

"If I take a bullet for somebody, and live to tell the tale, does it make the fact that there was a life saved any less significant than if I had died?"

... The problem here is the characters did actually die, but then revealed very later on quite ontologically that oh wait they weren't haha death is not real kids.

Also, this arguement is countering a completely different premise than the one presented.

 

There's a difference between a feint like the one you argue, and a revelation that came much later that completely removed the notion of death. In your arguement, death, as in the inevitable point of no-return (or, return as the same as you were prior), is still a possibility. With the Red Star, death is completely removed as a possibility altogether.

See how that comparison doesn't work?

Edited April 19, 2014 by SarracenianKaijin

[fishers64]

Also doesn't help how the "real heroes" that the one's we've been following are based, the Agori and Glatorians, are completely dull and uninteresting and are only there as bad replacements that the story insists are "the originals" in vain attempt to make you care.

 

Who really benefits by the inclusion of Spherus Magna and Agori? How do they improve anything in Bionicle prior?. Can you imagine yourself going back to play MNOG and think how much the revelation of Red Star being a jetback-backup disk improved it?

 

The Agori/Glatorian/story of 2009 was there to give purpose to the Mata Nui robot. We have this reveal that Mata Nui is a giant robot, now we get to find out why the giant robot exists and what it's for.

 

As for the last question, yes it does. (Speaking as someone who actually did go back to play MNOG after the reveal.) You can look at the telescope and marvel at which system moved it around to change the prophecies, why the Kestora didn't break it, etc.)

 

Anyway, the reason Jovan is on the RS is because he is dead, and teleported there. We actually sure he's alive on there, per se - he could be very dead if someone killed him and he wasn't taken to the revival area.

Edited April 19, 2014 by fishers64

[Pomegranate]

Does that revelation improve the story for you? I didn't think so.

 

Speak for yourself, but as a kiddo I absolutely loved all these revelations and things, because they always expanded the scale and awe of everything. That symbol turning out to match actual celestial bodies? That's pretty wicked, I enjoyed seeing that. I will admit that I was not a fan of the Bara Magna stuff, but that was mainly because there weren't any new books for me to read and get involved in the story outside serials and the meh comics, and the fact that out of all the themes used in fiction, "Wild West" and "Gladiators" bore me the most, and the whole Glatorian thing was obviously the latter. However, just because I did not enjoy some story elements and how some things were treated, be they locations or characters or retconned lore, I'm always able to pull one of CA Hapka's Bionicle books off the shelf or dust off a Bohrok and Toa Mata and enjoy the old story just as well. Sure, I know all these insane details about where the Toa are from and their purpose on this accidental island working as a camouflage system on a face of a planet sized robot that is being cleaned off by that robot's automated cleaning service that happen to be the transformed bodies of matoran who happen to be of an element we dont even learn about until Takanuva come 'round. The heroes are still heroic, the robots are still robotic, the threats are still threatening, and the mystical is still mystical. Even though I know how fire works and how candles are made and the exact temperature of the flame and that the light is is processed by my eyes in a certain fashion after a certain delay, I still feel something when I look at that flame and I'm still mesmerized and in awe of it, because it is still beautiful and it is still warm. Also, a lot of the big revelations are really exciting and make such a huge, awesome impact and I like knowing the answers to some mysteries. Heck yeah I can imagine replaying MNOG and thinking, "oh my gosh, the Red Star is a colossal jetpack harddrive with dead people on it!" and "oh my gosh, I know why those miners couldn't dig past the bedrock layer!" and "oh my gosh, the Turaga were actually Toa in a giant underground city I know all these things now that I didn't know a decade ago!". I don't like the Teridax thing much so I call him Makuta, and I don't really like the Agori much at all so I don't really read those comics or rebuild those sets, it's no big deal.

 

Can't live with the wool over your eyes forever just 'cause you know you won't like the truth. I don't mind all the scifi stuff that got tacked on over the years, and the fans and Greg seeking out every crack of canon and examining it to death doesn't really bother me, 'cause it's all about how you interpret it. I'm cool with all the super complex explanation for how and why everything works, but I don't really pay much attention to it. It just isn't something I think about 'cause it's something that I'm not really a fan of, and I can enjoy fiction without worrying so much about how others enjoy it or tell me to enjoy it and I'll focus on the stuff I like.

 

Whatever floats your boat, yo. You may think the story is ruined by the Red Star having the potential to return all the dead, for me it's enough just to know that it's broken and won't do that. Even if it did, that would be crazy, can you imagine? It's exciting too.

 

I want to ask you if you felt the same way when Takutanua resurrected Jaller, or when the Ignika saved the spirit of Mata Nui? The Red Star is not the only means of "respawning" in the story, and honestly, in such a grand work of fantasy like Bionicle, I'd expect folks to be revived whether there was an explanation beforehand or not, that's the sort of thing that can totally happen at any time in this kind of fictional world. Why does it make it that much worse when you finally get a confirmation that something in the story can do that, even though it doesn't work so it's useless anyways? I don't see how it's a big deal, reading the story and thinking, "well, now anyone can be brought back" when there's not actually any new story being written. Is it rewriting the past? So far it looks like everyone that was dead stayed dead and that's good enough for me. If one of the Star Trek writers said, "hey, actually, Starfleet transporters were supposed to duplicate everyone, but they just don't for some reason," would you go back to watching old episode of Trek you've seen before and think, "well, this dramatic moment isn't exciting anymore, 'cause there's a chance the Captain will just be cloned when he's transported and then that'll just change the outcome completely!". It's just some backstory that doesn't affect the actual plot, or anything really.

 

That's my point of view, anyways. If ya don't like it, don't think about it. If it doesn't directly affect the plot and is in fact not even mentioned in official media, it's not like you're gonna run into a problem with it while trying to enjoy the story or whatever ^^

 

To add to Aho's points, it's also rather strange to see it as "sadistic" to let people keep on living as they would have anyways had their lives not been cut short by accidents or murders. BTW, LEGO is unlikely to touch on religious themes anyways as that can be controversial, but Greg did say that after the Sendback broke, they saw dead people as becoming one with Mata Nui. Also, they don't live forever, they just have long lifespans. The Agori naturally live that long and don't seem any worse off for it. It is not yet certain whether the RS does fix old age issues; Greg has said that they can die of old age, but when somebody pointed out this possibility on the LEGO.com topic, he found it an interesting point but did not give a certain answer one way or the other. He may decide it later. For now, I would tend to assume they probably die of old age eventually and aren't brought back.

That is something I'd really like to know, 'cause then that changes the whole immortality debate.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Pomegranate

[bonesiii]

Sar, again it comes down to your personal taste. For the vast majority of target-age kids, and also a lot of sci-fi fans, it definitely was great to get those sorts of things. At the same time, we knew there was a tiny but vocal portion of the audience that in 2001 ran with a theory that turned into a misconception and soon turned into its own animal -- which was fine, but unfortunately many of them forget that that wasn't LEGO's intent. As LEGO continued to work out the story they had intended, it's natural that some fan guesses will end up being wrong (in fact only one can really be right!). This is the fundamental error of putting too much stock in fan guesses/theories when we don't really know.

 

I think of it like a murder mystery. Nobody gets into these mindsets in that genre where the presence of mystery is expected to automatically end in something detached from realism. If anything they expect the opposite. Now why should that kind of mystery be limited only to whodunnits? No reason at all.

 

Doesn't mean a genre more like what you clearly would prefer is wrong, it's just different, and not what LEGO happened to be going for. And fourteen years later, is it really too much to expect people to realize this by now?

[SarracenianKaijin]

The Agori/Glatorian/story of 2009 was there to give purpose to the Mata Nui robot. We have this reveal that Mata Nui is a giant robot, now we get to find out why the giant robot exists and what it's for.

It sure gave one. It was stupid, nonsensical, completely arbitrary and needless. Its an answer for a question that nobody asked for. Its like Highlander 2 with planet Zeist. Nobody needed that except for anorak completionism.

 

As for the last question, yes it does. (Speaking as someone who actually did go back to play MNOG after the reveal.) You can look at the telescope and marvel at which system moved it around to change the prophecies, why the Kestora didn't break it, etc.)

Yes but that had nothing to do with backup-drives, now did it?

 

Sar, again it comes down to your personal taste.

 

So what. Am I not allowed to express personal taste?

 

 

And Pomengranate's answer can effectively summarized into the all-encompassing phrase of "Well atleast I liked it".

 

Which, I guess is valid of an arguement. So I'm just gonna answer with an equally circumlocutionary statement of "I really think you are severely lowering your standards on "mystery" and "awe-inspiring" here. Or good story and world-building."

Edited April 20, 2014 by SarracenianKaijin

[bonesiii]

But you can't really "think" that as a sound logical opinion in the objective, non-taste sense, because you're using your own subjective personal taste to determine what to you is a higher standard. Since others' tastes differ, to them something else is a higher standard, etc. That's how it works.

[fishers64]

 

The Agori/Glatorian/story of 2009 was there to give purpose to the Mata Nui robot. We have this reveal that Mata Nui is a giant robot, now we get to find out why the giant robot exists and what it's for.

It sure gave one. It was stupid, nonsensical, completely arbitrary and needless. Its an answer for a question that nobody asked for. Its like Highlander 2 with planet Zeist. Nobody needed that except for anorak completionism.

 

As for the last question, yes it does. (Speaking as someone who actually did go back to play MNOG after the reveal.) You can look at the telescope and marvel at which system moved it around to change the prophecies, why the Kestora didn't break it, etc.)

Yes but that had nothing to do with backup-drives, now did it?

 

People don't usually build giant robots unless they have a reason. I think that restoring a broken planet is a perfectly valid reason to make a giant robot. And if the purpose of the giant robot hadn't been revealed, eventually someone would have asked that question and people would have complained - and it would have been a valid complaint.

 

I want you to take a break from reading this post and concentrate on the nearest wall. Just do it.

 

Did that not strike you as stupid and pointless? You had no reason to concentrate on the wall. If you were do it for awhile, you would ask yourself why you are staring at a wall. If you were smart, you would decide that you had better things to do than staring at wall.

 

The same holds true if I randomly decided to build a giant robot in my backyard. Unlike concentrating on wall, which takes relatively little effort, building a giant robot takes a lot of time and effort. If I threw all that time and effort into something that was pointless...I wouldn't probably even consider that it was pointless, and instead make up a reason to justify all that effort. Even if it was something as lame as "I like giant robots." (But then I could ask myself why I liked giant robots and come up with a list of logical reasons, so the situation isn't comparable.)

 

People expect things to have reasons behind them. In fact we are so addicted to reasons we "make up reasons even when none exist" (in the case of writing...although I would argue there always is a reason, thereby the expectation is valid...*illegal debate glossed over*). (In the hypothetical where the robot's purpose wasn't revealed, people would theorize what it was and grab onto whatever scraps of evidence they could to try to figure it out.)

 

I have no idea what you are referring to with the phrase "anorak completionism". All the Google results refer to a game that is Not Safe for BZP to my knowledge.

 

But you seem to be saying that the explanation was bad? What would have been a better explanation? Would any explanation have pleased you?

 

I think having an explanation is better than having no explanation - much as understanding is better than not understanding, having truth is better than not having it, feeling good is better than not. But I guess that's a taste thing where stories are concerned.

 

* * *

To the second thing - no, it didn't have anything to do with backup drives. But the revelation itself has nothing to do with backup drives either, merely reviving dead Matoran. I'm confused.

 

And yeesh this is off topic...

Edited April 20, 2014 by fishers64

[Pomegranate]

Fishers, I think he meant that the entire Agori thing came out of nowhere and spending an entire year focusing on 'em was pointless, not the fact that they and Bara Magna were the reason the robot was built in the first place. Also, the reviving dead Matoran thing is what he he meant as a backup drive, since that is more or less what it does. Just to clarify what he meant for ya ^^

[fishers64]

Fishers, I think he meant that the entire Agori thing came out of nowhere and spending an entire year focusing on 'em was pointless, not the fact that they and Bara Magna were the reason the robot was built in the first place.

I don't think so.

 

 

The Agori/Glatorian/story of 2009 was there to give purpose to the Mata Nui robot. We have this reveal that Mata Nui is a giant robot, now we get to find out why the giant robot exists and what it's for.

It sure gave one. It was stupid, nonsensical, completely arbitrary and needless. Its an answer for a question that nobody asked for. Its like Highlander 2 with planet Zeist. Nobody needed that except for anorak completionism.

 

Note the words in red. I think that is not a reference to the Agori story itself but rather the "Giant Robot purpose answer". Hence the wall of text. While I can buy that the sentence in the middle refers to the story, not the answer, the context explains why he has that taste, which is due to a negative reaction to having a purpose for the giant robot. (Or rather, what that purpose was, which was something I was trying to nail down.)

 

I can agree that 2009 story could have been vastly improved (Mata Nui first, insert backstory later!). But it did need to happen.

 

Also, the reviving dead Matoran thing is what he he meant as a backup drive, since that is more or less what it does. Just to clarify what he meant for ya ^^

How can reviving dead Matoran be a backup drive? That implies that information is stored on the Star, which it is not - the information is stored in that Matoran's "spirit" which remains attached to their mask after they die.

Edited April 20, 2014 by fishers64

[Pomegranate]

 

 

The Agori/Glatorian/story of 2009 was there to give purpose to the Mata Nui robot. We have this reveal that Mata Nui is a giant robot, now we get to find out why the giant robot exists and what it's for.

It sure gave one. It was stupid, nonsensical, completely arbitrary and needless. Its an answer for a question that nobody asked for. Its like Highlander 2 with planet Zeist. Nobody needed that except for anorak completionism.

 

Note the words in red. I think that is not a reference to the Agori story itself but rather the "Giant Robot purpose answer". Hence the wall of text. While I can buy that the sentence in the middle refers to the story, not the answer, the context explains why he has that taste, which is due to a negative reaction to having a purpose for the giant robot. (Or rather, what that purpose was, which was something I was trying to nail down.)

 

I can agree that 2009 story could have been vastly improved (Mata Nui first, insert backstory later!). But it did need to happen.

 

 

"The Agori/Glatorian/story of 2009 was there to give purpose to the Mata Nui robot." is what the "it" is referring to, there is no other subject in his post that can be referred to with "it" besides "this reveal" and "it sure gave one" is not an applicable response to the phrase "we have this reveal". Syntax and grammar, yo. I'm not sure what you're talking about, since the "giant robot purpose answer" is the Agori story, that was the whole point of that year. And he's saying none of it was necessary, neither the story nor the answer it provided, but it's not like they existed independently. They're the same thing.

 

 

Also, the reviving dead Matoran thing is what he he meant as a backup drive, since that is more or less what it does. Just to clarify what he meant for ya ^^

How can reviving dead Matoran be a backup drive? That implies that information is stored on the Star, which it is not - the information is stored in that Matoran's "spirit" which remains attached to their mask after they die.

 

The Red Star doesn't just revive Matoran, it revives every living being, aside from Rahi and those that die of old age, apparently. It's a backup drive because when they die, they just respawn from there. It basically creates backups of everyone, the new bodies, and send 'em back. The purpose of a backup drive is to ensure that you can not lose your data because a copy is saved somewhere else and you can just retrieve it from there. Their "spirits" are not attached their masks, it's just an imprint that fades over time. It's a different phenomenon. If you watch Doctor Who (today seems to be a popular day for comparisons to Doctor Who), it's like the "ghosting" glitch on the communicators in Silence in the Library. It's an echo of their consciousness, but they are certainly dead and their spirit is gone.

 

And Pomengranate's answer can effectively summarized into the all-encompassing phrase of "Well atleast I liked it".

My answer was that I believe you are wrong in insinuating that that reveal made the events of the story insignificant, and that it's easy to ignore that reveal to keep enjoying the story the way you enjoyed it before the reveal. If "at least I liked it" was what I was trying to say, I would've said it; I try to avoid writing big dumb walls of text when I can. I mentioned that I happened to really like the reveal myself because you asked if anyone could have possibly liked it, so I answered, and also to make the point that just because you did't like it, your opinion ain't the only one out there and certainly not the "right" one. Please don't brush off the main point of my argument by dumping it all under that umbrella of "personal opinion", and my standards for what I enjoy in fiction really aren't for you to judge. I enjoy Bionicle out of nostalgia and fondness, I've never vouched for its status as an upstanding work of literature or anything like that. I respect your right to scrutinize it against your own standards, I never said you were wrong to not like it yourself ^^

Edited April 20, 2014 by Pomegranate

[fishers64]

The Agori/Glatorian/story of 2009 was there to give purpose to the Mata Nui robot." is what the "it" is referring to. I'm not sure what you're talking about, since the "giant robot purpose answer" is the Agori story, that was the whole point of that year. And he's saying none of it was necessary, neither the story nor the answer it provided, but it's not like they existed independently. They're the same thing.

Yes, but the reason the story didn't need to exist (according to this person IMO) is because that answer didn't need to exist. Thereby, respond to the point that the answer didn't need to exist.

 

And the story and the answer aren't the same thing. Greg could have said, "The Mata Nui robot existed to put back together this planet called Spherus Magna that spilt into three pieces." and not told the story. Further, they could have told the Spherus Magna story of the Agori/Glatorian and not revealed the answer. In fact, they did that for six months, much to the annoyance of a lot of people, including *raises hand*. Would not revealing the answer improve the Agori story? No! It was when the answer started to be pointed to and finally revealed that the story got better, not worse (but then again, this is just my opinion ). Could the story have been told better without changing the answer? In my opinion, yes. They're not the same thing.

 

Anyway, I'm horrible at people-speaking. But I don't think we should argue over what another person said when the other person isn't even here. Let the man speak for himself. If I misinterpreted his post or its meaning, he can say so.

 

The Red Star doesn't just revive Matoran, it revives every living being, aside from Rahi and those that die of old age, apparently. It's a backup drive because when they die, they just respawn from there. It basically creates backups of everyone, the new bodies, and send 'em back. The purpose of a backup drive is to ensure that you can not lose your data because a copy is saved somewhere else and you can just retrieve it from there. Their "spirits" are not attached their masks, it's just an imprint that fades over time. It's a different phenomenon. If you watch Doctor Who (today seems to be a popular day for comparisons to Doctor Who), it's like the "ghosting" glitch on the communicators in Silence in the Library. It's an echo of their consciousness, but they are certainly dead and their spirit is gone.

The analogy breaks down because when you back up something, you have two copies - the active thing and the backup. The information the RS preserves via revival is the "mental patterns" (i.e. spirit, memories) of the revivee. But the information is stored in the person's spirit, not on the drive itself. This makes it less like a backup disk and more like System Restore.

[Pomegranate]

 

Anyway, I'm horrible at people-speaking. But I don't think we should argue over what another person said when the other person isn't even here. Let the man speak for himself. If I misinterpreted his post or its meaning, he can say so.

----------------

The analogy breaks down because when you back up something, you have two copies - the active thing and the backup. The information the RS preserves via revival is the "mental patterns" (i.e. spirit, memories) of the revivee. But the information is stored in the person's spirit, not on the drive itself. This makes it less like a backup disk and more like System Restore.

My thinking exactly, I was just, like, really sure you were replying to the wrong thing because English and its rules

 

The analogy isn't literal, it doesn't really matter what real-life technological thing you call it, but its actual function is the point of disdain.

[bonesiii]

That was a long (and yeah, quite off-topic ) tangent, but it looks like it boils down to the question of "necessary" -- and whether the presence of Agori (little people, rather than merely Great Beings) as part of the cause of the giant robot had a purpose.

 

Answer in both cases is simple. The first is "need fallacy." Nothing in entertainment is "needed" per se, including all of Bionicle. Where a fan or fans like it, they do so because of their tastes, and generally the need fallacy is invoked when a fan happens (due to their subjective tastes) not to like something, but the argument is contradictory because the things they liked weren't needed either. They were wanted. And everything done by a story producer, generally, is to some extent wanted, by the story producer, and thus anybody with similar tastes. (And often the thing that supposedly isn't needed actually DOES have a point in-story, that is being overlooked by the complainer.)

 

And the Agori were there mainly to put suspense to the purpose of the giant robot; if he doesn't complete his mission, a bunch of people would die. (Which they could have made a little clearer, but the point was there.) We knew the GBs made the robot, so we knew there were other people, and now we know why -- to save lives, other than just their own.

 

 

Now... Jovan, Red Star. These tangents should be discussed by opening new topics, please. It's really easy, Sar -- just click the new topic button in S&T instead of the reply button here. You can start the topic by saying "this discussion over here got me thinking..." and then just say what's on your mind there. Okay?

Edited April 21, 2014 by bonesiii