Poll: Size the Mata Nui robot

[LegoSWfan]

I might be missing something, but shrinking the robot down because of ocean depth doesn't solve the problem.If I got the proportions right, a 3150 km tall robot would be around 400 km thick. The deepest part of ocean on Earth is Mariana Trench, and it only go as deep as 11 km. If we keep the same proportion, a 11 km thick robot would be around 80 km tall - which would not work for something with islands inside.

What if like the Inika build, the MNR is wide, but not very deep. Lame theory, I know.

[maxim21]

What if like the Inika build, the MNR is wide, but not very deep. Lame theory, I know.

It would have to be very, very flat. Like a 2m (~6.5 ft) human being 1,27 cm (~0.5 inch) thick. I think this would create more problems than it would solve.

[LegoSWfan]

Like I said, it was a lame theory. No need to beat it up even more, let it die in dignity.

[J46 Nui]

I would prefer that there was no official measurement, but I like its current size. I like it because that means that Spherus Magna is enourmous, and that adds some mystery to the story. Why is Spherus Magna so big? Did it get that way naturally, or did the Great Beings do something to the planet to make it that size? Is the planet even natural at all? I like there being some things off about Spherus Magna because it raises so many questions.

 

The only problem that arises out of the official measurement is that the prototype robot is roughly the same size, so that means that the villages on the small part of Bara Magna explored in the story are months apart. But in my head canon, I just stick them closer together.

[LegoSWfan]

or, ya know, it could be naturally large. not every planet is earth sized.

[Thormen]

Essentially, Greg's 40 million number is not supported anywhere or by anything except the fact that Greg said it which makes it gospel. Please note I wrote several paragraphs on all this which I lost and won't write again so I'm aware that this seems like a rash and unsupported 'I dislike Greg' post but that's not it at all. I'd simply suggest that in the spirit of creating a sustainable and believable (by science fiction standards of course) universe we need to take on board ALL sources of information and NOT just that of GF. He wrote the story but that doesn't make his every word gospel. In the same way a car designer may only see 90% of his work represented in a final product, not every single word ever uttered by Greg was considered relevant to the Bionicle franchise by the rest of the team and I would suggest that an executive decision was made to go with CF's more reasonable, believable 3,300km size for the robot. It's clearly shown in the Mata Nui Rising video that this is the figure they worked off as it is easily comparable to a canon (Greg given) figure for the size of the Island of Mata Nui. Unless we change the size of the island (to be 4 times larger) or ignore the media depiction entirely then GF's 40 million foot figure cannot work.

 

I very much concur with the complaint that 40 million feet doesn't seem to make sense with anything else we've looked at here. I don't want to rehash my earlier arguments against 'fanonizing' a number 'cause there's not point in mentioning over and over again why I prefer something, but I do think toa kopaka4372's point is valid:

 

I feel the irresistible need to quote myself from another topic:

 

*likes how everyone assumes that Greg is solely responsible for the 40-mil number and that it was not perhaps chosen by the story team which the vast majority of the BIONICLE fanbase seems to forget existed*

 

(If I'm wrong and there is official confirmation that Greg was the one who chose the number, like he confirmed that he was the one who chose Matoro to be the Toa to die, please correct me).

 

 

And, as Bones pointed out earlier, in general we don't know how this number 40 million was chosen. Some people assume it was just a random big number Greg made up on the spot because he was asked for a number, others argue that the story team deliberately picked this number since it's so close to the diameter of the earth (12 742 km / 41.804 million feet), and the truth could be in between or something else entirely as well.

 

I went through fishers64 archive to look for the specific quote from Greg to give us some context. As it turns out there are many quotes, the first one about 40 million feet seems to be:

 

Jul 15 2008, 10:23 AM

 

 

 

About Mata Nui’s height... is it AROUND 700,000 feet? Or could he potentially be several times bigger than that?

 

-VK-

The actual thing I said is "closer to 700,000 feet than 100,000 feet" - which could mean 701,000 feet or it could mean 40 million feet.

 

 

After that Greg's answers on the subject basically boil down to "He's 40 million feet tall.". Personally, I do get the impression from these quotes that he just named a random big number: he seems to have been reluctant to do so at first, just trying to convey to us the idea that he is massive ("closer to 700,000 feet than 100,000 feet") but after people kept on asking he simply picked 40 million feet and stuck with it. However I have to stress that this is the idea I get and we can't know for sure as long as we don't ask him directly.

 

 

 

 

Also, another point I didn't get around to covering last time I tried to post this. In the final battle when Tahu is fighting Rahkshi and such, Mata Nui is aware of their every action, despite being millions of feet up in the air. I know he's a huge powerful robot (even in prototype form and hence shorter/crappier) but the observations he makes about Tahu's fight is the equivalent of us watching ants from the top of a five story building. At least

That same robot was also able to hear (and subsequently communicate with) the Glatorian and Agori. It was even stated directly in the story that the robot had special sensors for that kind of thing.   Could he not have some sort of sensor detecting heat signatures below (of which Tahu would likely have been the hottest) ? Wouldn't need to directly observe it if that were the case.

 

 

okay, first: Heat sensors isn't gonna do much good when Tahu was fighting agains Heat-Vision Rahkshi, just thought i'd point that bit out. second: that's... kinda stretching things, and it's really just easier if he's smaller, for basically all details of the Bara-Magna battle. :0

 

There were other Rahkshi, you know. Not just heat-vision ones as shown in the comics. Remember?

 

And I was giving an example of one kind of sensor the robot likely had access to. It would also be easier to hear Ackar if he was smaller, too. But, the Prototype could still do that, so we have to assume that he could see them somehow.

 

I actually don't think this is such a big problem... The GSR had a number of sensors, not necessarily heat sensors, its eyes were sensors as well: they were probably quite similar to videocameras. People seem to be assuming that these videocameras are more or less as advanced as real world cameras are, i.e. with the same pixel resolution and more or less as sensitive, but I think it's very likely that those eyes are a lot more powerful than the cameras we have. The Great Beings made them especially for that purpose: so they could serve as the eyes of a massive titan.

 

I also found this in Fishers' 2008 archive:

 

 

3.) I have a theory on why the Matoran never saw Bara Magna in the sky when on Mata Nui and Voya Nui, I was just wondering if you could tell me if this was correct. I know the real reason is that Lego had not thought of Bara Magna then, but it would be nice to have a storyline reason. Basically it is that Aqua magna has a simmlar spin to our moon in that its spin and orbit are at just the right speed such that only one side of it ever faces us (or in this case Bara Magna). this way if Mata Nui crashed on the side facing away from Bara Magna (which he most likely would have seeing as he was headed towards the planet, not away from it) the Matoran on the island of Mata Nui and those on Voya Nui would never see Bara Magna in the sky as they would be facing away from it. The rotation of the moon around the planet would also have to be about 1 Matoran day for a complete rotation, to simulate the correct day and night cycle by going in front of the planet into the light and behind the planet into the dark. Would you say that this is correct?

3) Makes sense to me.

 

In other words Munty, the part of your theory where the Great Spirit Robot is lying on the far side of Aqua Magna is confirmed.

 

Edit: Fixed quote

Edited May 1, 2015 by Thormen

[Munty]

I would prefer that there was no official measurement, but I like its current size. I like it because that means that Spherus Magna is enourmous, and that adds some mystery to the story. Why is Spherus Magna so big? Did it get that way naturally, or did the Great Beings do something to the planet to make it that size? Is the planet even natural at all? I like there being some things off about Spherus Magna because it raises so many questions.

 

The only problem that arises out of the official measurement is that the prototype robot is roughly the same size, so that means that the villages on the small part of Bara Magna explored in the story are months apart. But in my head canon, I just stick them closer together.

 

I believe this is essentially irrelevant. As Greg has already poo-pooed the idea of Mega Planets there is no way the three planets can be as big as you're suggesting. It also poses the other problems already discussed including travel times like you mention in your own post. If the robot is 40 million feet tall then the planets MUST be Mega planets which GF has confirmed is not the case. If they are NOT mega planets then the GSR cannot be 40 million feet tall which GF has also confirmed is NOT the case. Once again we simply return to conflicting canon quotes from the very same source. Given it seems Greg didn't put much thought into the number, perhaps he put MORE thought into the megaplanet idea as it was a theory pitched directly to him and he gave a firm answer. The number is and always has been significantly more wishy-washy. So perhaps it's time to start moving towards his more confident statement that the planet is smaller than we currently think and work from there?

 

 

Essentially, Greg's 40 million number is not supported anywhere or by anything except the fact that Greg said it which makes it gospel. ......

 
I very much concur with the complaint that 40 million feet doesn't seem to make sense with anything else we've looked at here. I don't want to rehash my earlier arguments against 'fanonizing' a number 'cause there's not point in mentioning over and over again why I prefer something, but I do think toa kopaka4372's point is valid:
 

I feel the irresistible need to quote myself from another topic:
 

*likes how everyone assumes that Greg is solely responsible for the 40-mil number and that it was not perhaps chosen by the story team which the vast majority of the BIONICLE fanbase seems to forget existed*
......

 

This is exactly what I suggested in my previous post but I believe I'm addressing the situation from the other side of the table! I believe toakopaka is suggesting that the 40 million number may have come from any other member of the team and NOT simply be a product of GF's imagination. However, given the snippet Thormen has just posted it seems fairly clear that it was devised entirely by GF and by the sounds of it somewhat unwillingly. This is EXACTLY what happens when the fans push and push to get an answer that isn't necessary and have it canonised. Greg gave us a number because it was repeatedly demanded of him and now we look back and realise it's a ridiculous answer that doesn't make any sense at all. So in actual fact, it really IS the Bionicle community that caused this 40 million figure to exist by insisting on it so much. Greg probably just plucked it out of the air to shut everyone up, so this one's on us... I would suggest that means we can quite happily correct it based on other canon sources however, as CF and the rest of the story team (ie everyone but Greg!) clearly used a different number for the robot's size in multiple forms of media. That was probably a number that was discussed at some point by multiple writers and artists and such. GF's number seems to have been plucked out of a hat to quieten down desperate fans. Perhaps he wasn't even aware of CF's concept figure for size?

 

Regardless, my point is, GF is not solely responsible for making these huge decisions and it is quite plausible that the rest of the team veto'd this 40 million figure in favour of the more reasonable 3,300km one. I suggest we do the same as there continues to be no other evidence backing up Greg's number while it is becoming increasingly apparent that he was the only person behind it's creation and did so randomly and unwillingly...

 

 

And, as Bones pointed out earlier, in general we don't know how this number 40 million was chosen. Some people assume it was just a random big number Greg made up on the spot because he was asked for a number, others argue that the story team deliberately picked this number since it's so close to the diameter of the earth (12 742 km / 41.804 million feet), and the truth could be in between or something else entirely as well.

I went through fishers64 archive to look for the specific quote from Greg to give us some context. As it turns out there are many quotes, the first one about 40 million feet seems to be:

 

 

The actual thing I said is "closer to 700,000 feet than 100,000 feet" - which could mean 701,000 feet or it could mean 40 million feet.

 

After that Greg's answers on the subject basically boil down to "He's 40 million feet tall.". Personally, I do get the impression from these quotes that he just named a random big number: he seems to have been reluctant to do so at first, just trying to convey to us the idea that he is massive ("closer to 700,000 feet than 100,000 feet") but after people kept on asking he simply picked 40 million feet and stuck with it. However I have to stress that this is the idea I get and we can't know for sure as long as we don't ask him directly.

 

Seems to be more evidence that this is a random number, chosen simply to stop people asking.Bing actively secretive about this information is probably the wisest thing he could have done but I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to receive an endless barrage of questions about the size of the robot. This, along with MANY other pointless canonisations of recent years, is a perfect example of why GF's interactions with the community at large may have been more harm than help... If he simp[ly guessed the 40 million foot number to stop people asking the question, why are we trying so hard to make it work? Why not try harder to make CF's 3,300km number work? It already fits in with the size of the IMN (canon), not to mention ALL the other MU locations (canon). It works better with travel times (semi canon), makes the fight on Bara Magna more believable (canon), makes moving the pieces of the prototype robot much easier (canon) not to mention causing the images of said actions to be far less out of scale (media canon). And finally, it means, Bara Magna need not be a Mega planet after all, which GF confirmed it absolutely is not! (CANON!) I can't think of a single issue that would be raised by using the number CF (not to mention an entire team of artists, storyboarders and writers [except GF]) used as a canon figure. It is clearly the one which was determined first in the concept art and despite Greg'd random number generation later on it continues to be used in the visual media for the entirety of the franchise. We NEVER see a 40 million foot robot even one time, while we see a 3,300km tall one numerous times...

 

I also found this in Fishers' 2008 archive:

 

 

3.) I have a theory on why the Matoran never saw Bara Magna in the sky when on Mata Nui and Voya Nui, I was just wondering if you could tell me if this was correct. I know the real reason is that Lego had not thought of Bara Magna then, but it would be nice to have a storyline reason. Basically it is that Aqua magna has a simmlar spin to our moon in that its spin and orbit are at just the right speed such that only one side of it ever faces us (or in this case Bara Magna). this way if Mata Nui crashed on the side facing away from Bara Magna (which he most likely would have seeing as he was headed towards the planet, not away from it) the Matoran on the island of Mata Nui and those on Voya Nui would never see Bara Magna in the sky as they would be facing away from it. The rotation of the moon around the planet would also have to be about 1 Matoran day for a complete rotation, to simulate the correct day and night cycle by going in front of the planet into the light and behind the planet into the dark. Would you say that this is correct?

3) Makes sense to me.

 

In other words Munty, the part of your theory where the Great Spirit Robot is lying on the far side of Aqua Magna is confirmed.

 

 

Yay! It looks like someone beat me to this theory but my little doodle is starting to look more and more acceptable! Thanks for digging this up Thormen, it's nice to know I'm at least right about something

[maxim21]

I believe this is essentially irrelevant. As Greg has already poo-pooed the idea of Mega Planets there is no way the three planets can be as big as you're suggesting. It also poses the other problems already discussed including travel times like you mention in your own post. If the robot is 40 million feet tall then the planets MUST be Mega planets which GF has confirmed is not the case

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly, Greg just said that EP didn't absorb gravity. That doesn't mean Spherus Magna isn't a megaplanet.

 

Actually, after searching on LMB, Greg actually confirmed Spherus Magna is far larger than Earth.

 

makes moving the pieces of the prototype robot much easier (canon) not to mention causing the images of said actions to be far less out of scale (media canon).

Err... I can't see how reducing the prototype size by four makes it possible for the Agori to reassemble it only with their physical strength. It's still landmass sized, not something movable by hand.

There's a similar problem with media canon. Sizing the robot four times down still make it way bigger than how it's represented in comics, for example. (They only seems to be a few hundreds kilometers high in the comics - the only reference point I found was the mountains in the background, and they go around mid-calf in several panels)

Edited May 1, 2015 by maxim21

[Munty]

 

I believe this is essentially irrelevant. As Greg has already poo-pooed the idea of Mega Planets there is no way the three planets can be as big as you're suggesting. It also poses the other problems already discussed including travel times like you mention in your own post. If the robot is 40 million feet tall then the planets MUST be Mega planets which GF has confirmed is not the case

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly, Greg just said that EP didn't absorb gravity. That doesn't mean Spherus Magna isn't a megaplanet.

 

Actually, after searching on LMB, Greg actually confirmed Spherus Magna is far larger than Earth.

 

makes moving the pieces of the prototype robot much easier (canon) not to mention causing the images of said actions to be far less out of scale (media canon).

Err... I can't see how reducing the prototype size by four makes it possible for the Agori to reassemble it only with their physical strength. It's still landmass sized, not something movable by hand.

There's a similar problem with media canon. Sizing the robot four times down still make it way bigger than how it's represented in comics, for example. (They only seems to be a few hundreds kilometers high in the comics - the only reference point I found was the mountains in the background, and they go around mid-calf in several planets - )

 

 

 

4) The answer to this question is kind of obvious, but Spherus Magna is FAR larger than Earth, yes?

5) If so, does that mean the gravity on Spherus Magna is far greater than that of Earth's as well?

 

4) Yes

5) I'd assume so

 

The questions you linked to do nothing but disprove a megaplanet theory. We already know SM is significantly larger than Earth, that has NEVER been questioned to my knowledge, certainly not in this thread. Even if we treat the GSR as 10 million feet tall he is one quarter the size of Earth which remains highly impractical (probably impossible but I won't claim that for several reasons) So we know it's larger than earth, hence question 4 is irrelevant to the current discussion.

 

Question 5 however is highly relevant... 

Imagine 7-8 foot beings living on Earth. They would get along just fine and most likely be more powerful than us in our 1G gravity. As the size mass of a planet grows however and that G-force increase, so does the downward force upon all things on said planet. If we treat Spherus Magna and the other planets as largely solid and consider the fact that EP does not negate gravity (in fact it will add to the mass of the planet therefore empowering it) then a planet larger than earth will have greater gravitational forces. In the case of a planet large enough to facilitate the construction of a 40 million foot robot, the gravity would be far too great to allow the existence of 7 foot bipedal beings (the way we know them under real life physics) So Greg saying that the planets are far larger than earth and then consequently 'guessing' that the gravity is also going to be far greater does nothing to help back up claims that the robot is 40 million feet tall. Any planet large enough to accomodate such a fabrication would have impossibly high gravity. 

 

I know Bionicle doesn't strictly adhere to real-life physics. I alos know at least one person will point this out to me despite referencing it multiple times in this post. I'm also basing these facts on what Greg said though. As much as I hate the way his word is blindly treated as law, it works both ways so I'm happy to use Greg's statements in my argument not only when they contradict my own opinions (40 million foot robot) but also the many many times they can be seen to corroborate other evidence supporting them (a 3,300km robot) I am not being 'selective', I am considering ALL Greg information because I know without it any arguments will be largely ignored by his doting fans. 

 

Back on track, perhaps he didn't specifically state it wasn't a Mega planet, hopefully Bonesii (or Fishers I forget?) could point us to that particular bit of info. If he didn't entirely discount the idea then it is the ONLY way a 40 million foot robot can exist. However, even if he didn't categorically refuse that theory, he still didn't support or endorse it either so SM being a megaplanet is no more or less canon than not as of right now. That means in could still just as easily be a 3,300km tall robot. Subsequently this would reduce the planet's gravitational pull by three quarters (Actually I think it would be a whole lot more as the diameter and mass of a sphere are indirectly related, will look into this) thus solving yet another problem with the 40 million foot figure that seems to be on increasingly thin ice!

 

To the second point, of course the Agori still can't reassemble the prototype robot by sheer strength. I think Bonesii offered a good solution to this by suggesting some sort of anti-grav effect was in use at the time. This would mean they were simply pulling the components as opposed to dragging them. It's still an impossible task but resizing the robot makes it 4 times smaller so of course it will make it more likely and more believable. As far as the comic book scaling, I haven't checked these scenes for a while but I imagine you're probably right that these are likely to be the LEAST accurate media depictions of the robots' size (inside official sources anyway) This was an unavoidable issue for the illustrators though as they were tasked with illustrating two entirely seperate battles at the same time. One with thousands of tiny sub-ant sized beings down on the ground battling by the robots gigantic feet, and another of the robots themselves going at each other. Showing both simultaneously is technically going to be imposisble but it makes for a much better and more engrossing comic if you can imagine the two battles being intertwined. In reality, the battles would've been separated by many miles as soon as either robot took a single step yet in the comic they are shown to be directly above the smaller fight at all times (I think!) This entire fight is entirely unbelievable but it is simply a vehicle which is used to propel the story forward. That is not to say we should just shrug it off and accept that all the ridiculous events 'happened because they said so', in the same sense that it's not ok to accept a 40 million foot number that makes the entire Bionicle universe impossible without questioning it. This is simply not the place to discuss the final battle in detail as I believe that will need a whole new topic all to itself! The relevant issues regarding the final battle in sizing the giant robots include how the planet is not destroyed and how Mata Nui can observe the battle so closely (kind of covered already). Other issues like how the battle at their feet wasn't immediately destroyed by a misstep, how the fight didn't travel away from Tahu and why the robots seem out of scale (regardless of WHICH figure we use!) are matters that definitely need addressing but probably not here!

 

For what it's worth I'm uneasy using the 'artistic license' argument to explain why the comic book representations don't match up to the GF OR CF numbers while also claiming the same phenomenon is NOT responsible for why the movie robot is not to scale with GF's 40 million foot number. My only defence in what seems like a case of double-standards is that I view the movies as the highest form of media canon. The comics therefore can be inaccurate to the movies but not the other way around. I also see the Faber number as actual canon (since it seems to be in so many case) while the GF number seems to be completely impulsive and unsubstantiated. Therefore I see the movie and CF representations as canon, the GF figure as rejected by the story team and the comics as possibly (or even probably) inaccurate due to the limitation imposed on the artists. Noone can draw a comic that shows tiny warriors and giant robots fighting in the same cell, even if the robot IS only 3,300 it would simply be too big to display alongside 7 foot beings and have them remain visible...

[maxim21]

The questions you linked to do nothing but disprove a megaplanet theory.

I really don't understand there. "Far larger" is exactly how I would compare a standard planet to a megaplanet.

 

In the case of a planet large enough to facilitate the construction of a 40 million foot robot, the gravity would be far too great to allow the existence of 7 foot bipedal beings (the way we know them under real life physics) So Greg saying that the planets are far larger than earth and then consequently 'guessing' that the gravity is also going to be far greater does nothing to help back up claims that the robot is 40 million feet tall. Any planet large enough to accomodate such a fabrication would have impossibly high gravity.

Yes, but once again, the same problem exists for a 10 million feet robot.

 

That's my big problem with shrinking down the robot to 10 million feet : the only problem it adresses is the Mata Nui Rising video, it keeps all the problems people give for getting ride of the 40 millions feet size.

 

Back on track, perhaps he didn't specifically state it wasn't a Mega planet, hopefully Bonesii (or Fishers I forget?) could point us to that particular bit of info. If he didn't entirely discount the idea then it is the ONLY way a 40 million foot robot can exist. However, even if he didn't categorically refuse that theory, he still didn't support or endorse it either so SM being a megaplanet is no more or less canon than not as of right now.

Unless there was another follow-up, that's in this post on LMB that Greg "disproved" bonesiii theory.

 

 

2. You also recently said that the gravity is greater on SM than on Earth. Or rather, you said that you assumed so. How can this be possible if everything functions the same. Nothing canon shows it acting any differently, no jumps are different, birds fly the same. Someone on BZP had a theory that something in the core of the planet that was transformed by EP, absorbs the extra-gravity that is over earth-like levels .

2) Again, though, BIONICLE follows comic book science, not Earth science. People jumped and birds flew "normally" on Krypton, too, which had much heavier gravity than Earth.

 

Subsequently this would reduce the planet's gravitational pull by three quarters (Actually I think it would be a whole lot more as the diameter and mass of a sphere are indirectly related, will look into this) thus solving yet another problem with the 40 million foot figure that seems to be on increasingly thin ice!

I don't see the problem that's being "solved" here. If the point is that a 40 million feet robot would crumble under its own weight, the same problem would exist with a 10 million feet robot, as far as current human knowledge goes (or at least mine).

 

To the second point, of course the Agori still can't reassemble the prototype robot by sheer strength. I think Bonesii offered a good solution to this by suggesting some sort of anti-grav effect was in use at the time. This would mean they were simply pulling the components as opposed to dragging them. It's still an impossible task but resizing the robot makes it 4 times smaller so of course it will make it more likely and more believable.

Does it? I mean, I think of it as if Agori were pulling the state of Texas instead of the whole USA. Either way, you need to accept they did something impossible. Both require as much suspension of disbelief.

 

In reality, the battles would've been separated by many miles as soon as either robot took a single step yet in the comic they are shown to be directly above the smaller fight at all times (I think!)

I was also almost sure there were scenes were both battles were shown on the same panels, but no. That's why I took the mountains as a reference point.

 

Therefore I see the movie and CF representations as canon, the GF figure as rejected by the story team

That's the thing. Christian Faber clearly stated his 3000 km representation isn't canon, but just the basic inspiration. I don't think he would have bothered to state it if the story team had chosen the 3000 km representation.

[N.S.M.8]

That's my big problem with shrinking down the robot to 10 million feet : the only problem it adresses is the Mata Nui Rising video, it keeps all the problems people give for getting ride of the 40 millions feet size.

... Solving the Mata Nui Rising issue isn't reason enough to change the size?

Why not?

[maxim21]

... Solving the Mata Nui Rising issue isn't reason enough to change the size?

Why not?

Because sizing down the robot create issues for medias where the 40 millions feet size is mentionned - Reign of Shadows at least. Plus, other sizes are depicted in other medias - comics, like I said before - so why this size more than others?

[ALVIS]

 

... Solving the Mata Nui Rising issue isn't reason enough to change the size?

Why not?

Because sizing down the robot create issues for medias where the 40 millions feet size is mentionned - Reign of Shadows at least. Plus, other sizes are depicted in other medias - comics, like I said before - so why this size more than others?

 

 

A mere mention of the robot being unreasonably huge is less of an issue than a visual depiction of the robot being a more reasonable size. Literary media can be easily modified or ignored. Visual media, not so much.

[N.S.M.8]

 

... Solving the Mata Nui Rising issue isn't reason enough to change the size?

Why not?

Because sizing down the robot create issues for medias where the 40 millions feet size is mentionned - Reign of Shadows at least. Plus, other sizes are depicted in other medias - comics, like I said before - so why this size more than others?

 

10.3 million feet is better because of the island of Mata Nui.  We know the canon size of the island (489.09 km x 243.86 km).  We know that the island is supposed to cover Mata Nui's face.

This size island covers the face of the 10.3 million foot tall robot; it does not cover the face of the 40 million foot tall robot.

 

As for changing other canon material that uses the 40 million number, it is mentioned three times (as far as I can tell) in Bionicle canon: Reign of Shadows chapter one, Reign of Shadows chapter four, and Journey's End chapter one.  Of these, the refrence in Reign of Shadows chapter four already violates canon.  

 

and when one is 40 million feet tall, reflected Makuta, one can see quite far.

This is not narration for the benefit of the reader; this is Makuta's monologue.  Why then, is he using imperial measurements (inch, foot, yard, etc.) instead of Matoran measurements (bio, kio, and mio).

 

This makes Reign of Shadows already semi-canon.  Changing the reference in Chapter One shouldn't be that big of a deal anymore.  

 

What about Journey's End? That's semi-canon as well:

 

A shadow fell over the robots, the shadow of the moon of Bota Magna returning to its place of origin. Using the last of his energy, Mata Nui rose and shoved Makuta backward into the path of the planetoid.

In Journey's End chapter ten, Makuta is crushed by Bota Magna.  From BS01:

 

• Teridax's death differs in several sources; both Journey's End and the Mata Nui Saga describe it as the entire Bota Magna planet which crashes into his head, while the canon death is from a moon fragment, described in the later sources Sahmad's Tale and Glatorian Comic 7: Rebirth.

If Greg already ret-coned one part of Journey's End to fit with other media, why can't it be done again?

[maxim21]

A mere mention of the robot being unreasonably huge is less of an issue than a visual depiction of the robot being a more reasonable size. Literary media can be easily modified or ignored. Visual media, not so much.

That's really a matter of preference, there. To me, visual media value impression before accuracy and so shouldn't be taken as more accurrate.

 

10.3 million feet is better because of the island of Mata Nui. We know the canon size of the island (489.09 km x 243.86 km). We know that the island is supposed to cover Mata Nui's face.

This size island covers the face of the 10.3 million foot tall robot; it does not cover the face of the 40 million foot tall robot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with th 3000 km robot, the island is bigger than the face, hiding it entirely, right? To make it at least a little bit stable, the MNR would need to have created massive bedrocks around his head; I think. The island entirely contained on the face of the MNR is easier to manage for take-off.

I don't see why the Mata Nui island would need to cover entirely the face of the robot.

 

This is not narration for the benefit of the reader; this is Makuta's monologue. Why then, is he using imperial measurements (inch, foot, yard, etc.) instead of Matoran measurements (bio, kio, and mio).

 

 

 

This makes Reign of Shadows already semi-canon. Changing the reference in Chapter One shouldn't be that big of a deal anymore.

That's pretty standard and I don't see the issue with Teridax using imperial system. His thoughts are already translated from Matoran to English. That's just part of the traduction.

 

And even if your point was valid, it would still be a problem. Sure, it's all good for those who would know it, but for anyone who would want to be introduced to BIONICLE G1 and would read the serials, the 40 000 000 feet size would be the canon one. It's clearly stated, by someone well-placed to know it.

 

Just because there's been many retcons over the years doesn't mean it's a good pratice. And retconning things now that G1 is over is even worse, since it means the new status quo has no chance to be clearly featured in new medias (since there'll be no new medias).

[N.S.M.8]

 10.3 million feet is better because of the island of Mata Nui. We know the canon size of the island (489.09 km x 243.86 km). We know that the island is supposed to cover Mata Nui's face.

This size island covers the face of the 10.3 million foot tall robot; it does not cover the face of the 40 million foot tall robot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with th 3000 km robot, the island is bigger than the face, hiding it entirely, right? To make it at least a little bit stable, the MNR would need to have created massive bedrocks around his head; I think. The island entirely contained on the face of the MNR is easier to manage for take-off.

I don't see why the Mata Nui island would need to cover entirely the face of the robot.

 

It seems to be well supported by the face.

 

 

 

 This is not narration for the benefit of the reader; this is Makuta's monologue. Why then, is he using imperial measurements (inch, foot, yard, etc.) instead of Matoran measurements (bio, kio, and mio).

 

 

 

This makes Reign of Shadows already semi-canon. Changing the reference in Chapter One shouldn't be that big of a deal anymore.

That's pretty standard and I don't see the issue with Teridax using imperial system. His thoughts are already translated from Matoran to English. That's just part of the traduction.

That wasn't really meant to be taken very seriously.  My argument about Journey's End being semi-canon was meant to be taken seriously, so let's just assume you found something wrong that one as well, but chose not to post it.

 

 

And even if your point was valid, it would still be a problem. Sure, it's all good for those who would know it, but for anyone who would want to be introduced to BIONICLE G1 and would read the serials, the 40 000 000 feet size would be the canon one. It's clearly stated, by someone well-placed to know it.

Just because there's been many retcons over the years doesn't mean it's a good pratice. And retconning things now that G1 is over is even worse, since it means the new status quo has no chance to be clearly featured in new medias (since there'll be no new medias).

This reminds me of the Manas Fight from 2001.  We had two different sources saying different things (Tale of the Toa vs. Mata Nui Online Game), and didn't get an answer until much later.  So much later, in fact, that there was no new media showing the corrected version.  This left newcomers in the dark (unless they searched BS01)

 

This is the same thing.  We have different sources of media saying different things (Reign of Shadows and Journey's end vs. Mata Nui Rising), and if we get a resolution it will be far past the release of any new media, leaving the newcomers in the dark (unless they search BS01).

 

As far as I am concerned, there is precedent to make the change.

Edited May 1, 2015 by N.S.M.8

[Munty]

I've read through all the new posts here but it's already late so I'm going to bed The only thing I will say first is something I only just realised from N.S.M.8's last post.

 

 

We have different sources of media saying different things (Reign of Shadows and Journey's end vs. Mata Nui Rising), and if we get a resolution it will be far past the release of any new media, leaving the newcomers in the dark (unless they search BS01)

 

That's a very good point. If you actually looked through all the media as a new Bionicle fan what are you more likely to come across? The movies or the books? I'd suggest there are a whole bunch of fans out there who have never read any of the books but may well have seen the movies. More at least than have read the books and not seen the movies... So the first impression people will get is from the animated media. Just one more reason to take it more seriously than the already problematic books and comics as mentioned already...

 

Edit : Also, maxim, while everyone here is clearly up for a good debate, you don't seem to be actually providing any new information or making any logical arguments in favour of your particular view. You just seem to be shooting down anything other members say and assuming the fact that 'Greg said it' will make everyone agree with you. Bear in mind that the size of the robot is no longer the only thing being discussed here but also the validity of some of Greg's own work. We already have examples of things he got wrong and even some retcons. If you want to convince those of us who disagree with you that this is not one of those mistakes, you'll need to start giving us some sort of supporting argument

Edited May 1, 2015 by Munty

[bonesiii]

Wow, lots of interesting developments in this topic now... And this is the first time yall have gotten too wordy for even me to have time to follow. (Then again, my schedule's far more packed now so whatever.)

Can somebody look over this summary and tell me if I've got this right?

-Munty suggests the more conical likely shape of AM's rock may help reconcile the giant (of any size, not one particular interpretation) with the planet.

-Thormen suggests cratering from the impact may lessen the ocean depth problem.

-There's a previously unknown quote from Greg that calls SM "far larger" than Earth, and evidence the gravity may indeed be far greater. (So I guess we have to appeal to intensely advanced biology to explain survival??)

-Seemingly evidence that the 40 million number was picked somewhat randomly as expected. (I still say it would be best to ask him directly though -- he's still active, so why not?)

Was there anything else major I'm missing/forgetting?


Assuming no, some points real quick:

-Munty, not sure how literally you interpreted your image with the cone shape and the water, but the water should (assuming normal physics) form a sphere. The rock might not (I agree there and have suggested that before though I expected that the loose earth would, but who knows how much of that there is), but liquids should have no problem doing that.

Not sure how that affects things; in too much of a rush to try to sketch it out right now.

-Munty, it seems unlikely there was any kind of "executive decision" to ignore Greg's number -- more likely the animators simply never heard of it and Greg didn't realize anybody would make anything out of their depictions. (He has said he doesn't think spatially well, so I doubt he would be worried about this to be sure to inform them.) And if that was the case, Greg presumably would have told us.

But that doesn't change much about the discussion, since looking at everything to consider what interpretation would make the most sense is still possible.

-Mata Nui's awareness of actions in the battle on Bara Magna isn't relevant to his size. Star Trek often portrays sensors from orbit detecting things at resolution high enough to see individuals. If anything, larger size means a higher capacity for processing sensor data due to more room for computing equipment.

-To clarify again about EP absorbing gravity -- that was never the theory (though this is admittedly a nitpick) -- it was that EP transformed the rock around it to absorb gravity. EP itself doing it is useless since it was gone for 100,000 years.

(In response to a post from maxim. Maybe we're all already clear on that and you were just condensing to save time typing, though. )

-It still seems to me that Greg simply doesn't understand the issue with intense gravity and biological lifeforms (multicellular), and how the "gravity weirdness" idea was itself comic-book physics, and turning down any lessening of gravity is actually real-life physics. Personally that impression has been enough to simply headcanon gravity absorption, keep the megaplanet (and oceans as deep as needed as a result, incidently), and the canon giant's size. The problem has come up only recently with Greg's answers about gravity, really, if memory serves.

-Munty, a style request -- could you please try to avoid the massive paragraphs? Anything over about four lines or so, try to put a linebreak in. Same content, just spaced out so it is (much) more easily readable.

-You mention at one point that there are two big issues in your view with the final battle -- planet not being destroyed and sensor range. See above about the latter. Former was answered recently (well, only with a theory, though, but one that seems very likely); basically the GBs would almost certainly include automatic systems using things like kinetic dampening to eliminate any harm to planets, since they designed Mata Nui to land on alien planets all the time, secretly. (And all the powers needed to do that are available in the internal world so easy to just apply the ones needed for this to the outside.)

-No, the Faber number simply isn't canon, and GF's number simply is. That isn't up for debate -- but what number SHOULD be canon is.

(IMO, there are multiple solutions; one is headcanoning gravity absorption, another headcanoning a smaller giant. Really the simplest solution would have been gravity absorption as it contradicted nothing at all; the others require a retcon of some sort. It worked, too, until somebody decided to actually ask him (badly). But even now all that needs retconned is his recent answers about gravity that way. )

-maxim, the point of all this isn't about the giant crumbling under his own weight -- we know it has internal artificial gravity (and it's definitely no stretch to imagine various other powers in there, like Star Trek's "structural integrity fields"). The problems really come in with SM biology prior to the discovery of protodermis (and various other direct issues with the giant's size). Especially prior to the GBs' inventions (since the ELs do show they could make powers prior to finding EP, and implants could have helped against the gravity too).

-Alvis, the written media are as irreversible as artistic, because we can't make retcons time travel back to when the vast majority of the audience would be actually reading anything written. And getting size numbers from art would be subjective for most people anyways, who probably wouldn't be trying to measure the size of the planet based on drawn curvature etc. -- most probably only took it as it was intended -- "it's big".

-N.S., as far as I have seen so far, we do not know the island (above water) is supposed to cover the face; as pointed out before, that seems to be just a fan assumption. A natural one, but still. Also, the island in a normal landing might actually do that; the accidental one in the crash landing might not be the normal size (although I think the design has to be programmed as it matched Metru Nui). But all the island is for is to disguise the part that needs to stick above the water so the Kini-Nui and Great Telescope can be above water. That could be any size, really.

(But the ocean depth issue is a problem there, if we don't have megaplanets.)

-BTW, could "far larger" mean something more like "big enough to have noticeably stronger gravity" rather than "like Jupiter!"? Just thought of that... something to consider... probably not though...

-N.S., all uses of English in Bionicle are treated as "translations" akin to what Tolkien did with LotR. Things like the English codenames for the DH for example are actually in "Bionicle-sounding" language (that is, they "would be" if it was real; obviously none was established); whether any particular name is translated or transliterated is really optional. So, Makuta thinking "40 million feet tall" isn't a problem, and isn't "semi-canon". It's just translated. (Although I do think it's probably approximate. )

-I agree, though, that there's no actual problem with semi-canon-ifying that statement. (There are lots of retconned little spots in every source, including books; I noticed many on my read-throughs for the retelling. Adding one more wouldn't really hurt, on something like this IMO.) Except that virtually nobody will ever find out.

-The Bota versus Aqua-fragment Makuta death thing isn't a retcon, apparently, as Thormen mentioned earlier; it's a "two canon dimensions" thing (although Greg's early answers favored the AM fragment, and I headcanon that). And personally, I'm lately leaning towards liking this solution for the giant's size. One version (as used in my retelling) with the megaplanet and gravity absorption and the currently canon size, and another with a small planet and small giant and whatever adjustments needed for that... and I suppose a third for megaplanet with crushing gravity and somehow biology on SM works.

[N.S.M.8]

Alright, there were two points addressed to me and a third that I need to comment on:

-N.S., as far as I have seen so far, we do not know the island (above water) is supposed to cover the face; as pointed out before, that seems to be just a fan assumption. A natural one, but still. Also, the island in a normal landing might actually do that; the accidental one in the crash landing might not be the normal size (although I think the design has to be programmed as it matched Metru Nui). But all the island is for is to disguise the part that needs to stick above the water so the Kini-Nui and Great Telescope can be above water. That could be any size, really.

(I believe that these are Thormen's images)
It is shown to cover the face in Mata Nui Rising.  We "knew" from a canon source that the island covers the head before we knew the size.  
 

 

-N.S., all uses of English in Bionicle are treated as "translations" akin to what Tolkien did with LotR. Things like the English codenames for the DH for example are actually in "Bionicle-sounding" language (that is, they "would be" if it was real; obviously none was established); whether any particular name is translated or transliterated is really optional. So, Makuta thinking "40 million feet tall" isn't a problem, and isn't "semi-canon". It's just translated. (Although I do think it's probably approximate. )

I admit, that was silly of me. 

One last point:

-The Bota versus Aqua-fragment Makuta death thing isn't a retcon, apparently, as Thormen mentioned earlier; it's a "two canon dimensions" thing (although Greg's early answers favored the AM fragment, and I headcanon that). And personally, I'm lately leaning towards liking this solution for the giant's size. One version (as used in my retelling) with the megaplanet and gravity absorption and the currently canon size, and another with a small planet and small giant and whatever adjustments needed for that... and I suppose a third for megaplanet with crushing gravity and somehow biology on SM works.

...huh?

Greg confirmed which source was canon back in the old days, but now said something nonsensical because he didn't quite remember... Don't we have a rule for this sort of thing?
Something along the lines of "If an old answer contradicts a new one, follow the old one."  

Edited May 2, 2015 by N.S.M.8

[fishers64]

One last point:

-The Bota versus Aqua-fragment Makuta death thing isn't a retcon, apparently, as Thormen mentioned earlier; it's a "two canon dimensions" thing (although Greg's early answers favored the AM fragment, and I headcanon that). And personally, I'm lately leaning towards liking this solution for the giant's size. One version (as used in my retelling) with the megaplanet and gravity absorption and the currently canon size, and another with a small planet and small giant and whatever adjustments needed for that... and I suppose a third for megaplanet with crushing gravity and somehow biology on SM works.

...huh?

 

Greg confirmed which source was canon back in the old days, but now said something nonsensical because he didn't quite remember... Don't we have a rule for this sort of thing?

Something along the lines of "If an old answer contradicts a new one, follow the old one."

 

Yes. Which is what I was trying to say all along, but nobody was listening to me. (After all, nobody listens to the fish. )

 

Therefore, we have a too large a robot for our planet, Watson. Therefore, we either have to shrink our bot or grow the planet. I prefer the "grow the planet" theorem because I like my giant robots to be giant robots, prefer the bonesiii formerly amazing gravity absorption theory because I'm lazy, resist change, and put little stock in LMB Greg who has also said other things I don't agree with. But that's all my taste (still). But it is backed up by Greg himself who said that previous answers take precedent, the 40 million was a previous answer, that wins. End of problem.

 

But if you take Greg's interpretations of gravity to be canon, then Bara Magna can only be slightly larger than Earth size, which means that having a 40 million foot tall robot land on its surface and engage in combat with a 27 million foot tall robot is a fundamental impossibility. We have two canon "facts" that are at odds with each other. That's why I go back to precedent. But it gives that "foot in the door" to the taste to shrink the robot. That taste is immovable obstacle - I'm not going to suddenly make you like the 40 million foot tall robot, no?

 

I figured that nobody would listen to me anyway because everyone wants to shrink the robot. Or at least, a strong majority. 

 

Granted, I'll give you that those two vital paragraphs were mixed in a long post with a bunch of other stuff. But I think it would have been ignored even if I continued to harp on it. Sometimes everyone has to spin their wheels for awhile before they figure out that their taste isn't going to work out. 

 

Whew. Mission accomplished. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by fishers64

[ALVIS]

 

Therefore, we have a too large a robot for our planet, Watson. Therefore, we either have to shrink our bot or grow the planet. I prefer the "grow the planet" theorem because I like my giant robots to be giant robots, prefer the bonesiii formerly amazing gravity absorption theory because I'm lazy, resist change, and put little stock in LMB Greg who has also said other things I don't agree with. But that's all my taste (still). But it is backed up by Greg himself who said that previous answers take precedent, the 40 million was a previous answer, that wins. End of problem.

 

But if you take Greg's interpretations of gravity to be canon, then Bara Magna can only be slightly larger than Earth size, which means that having a 40 million foot tall robot land on its surface and engage in combat with a 27 million foot tall robot is a fundamental impossibility. We have two canon "facts" that are at odds with each other. That's why I go back to precedent. But it gives that "foot in the door" to the taste to shrink the robot. That taste is immovable obstacle - I'm not going to suddenly make you like the 40 million foot tall robot, no?

 

I figured that nobody would listen to me anyway because everyone wants to shrink the robot. Or at least, a strong majority. And as long as the taste barrier exists, the true voice of reason will always fall on deaf ears. (Just like in Cat in the Hat with the fish.)

 

 

Okay, first off, this is bonesiii levels of condescending. Please don't try to paint yourself as "the true voice of reason" besieged by the thoughtless masses. Those of us who support a smaller size for the robot do because of our reasoning, not despite it.

 

Also, here's something that nobody seems to have suggested so far: Greg's own rule discounts the 40 million foot figure. That answer was given long, long after Christian Faber depicted the size of the robot in his concept art. You may argue that concept art isn't canon, but there is nothing to suggest that the story team or visual artists changed their mind between 2000 and 2008 -- only that Greg gave an answer that didn't match up to the model the animators were using as a reference.

[fishers64]

I knew that something was wrong with that post, and I'm going to remove that line. I've spent too long around that pesky bonelord, and I'm ashamed to show symptoms. In any case, people have a right to their preferences here. No condescension was intended. It was meant as a joke, and I'm sorry I forgot to type the correct emotes.

 

I thought that Greg's rule only applied to words of Greg (because of forgetfulness), not to concept art that came before. Obviously different heights would be tossed around the story team before the number was finalized.

 

IMO that's like judging one of my fanfiction works based on all of the ideas I tossed around before I wrote the story. Just this morning I checked one of my "icicles" - preliminary scenes I write out - to see if it could be worked into the story I was finally writing for real. It couldn't because a character I wrote into the icicle scene - in the real scene he was dead. Let's say I later release the icicle scene just for fun - do I expect my readers to take it as what really happened? That the character is alive now? No, because of cause and effect, he's dead, and anything else would be unrealistic. Does that make me a bad writer? No, I marked that as preliminary, I knew there were errors in it, and I fixed them. 

 

Same deal here. 33000 ft was tossed around in the backroom. There's a reason it was expanded - 33000 ft isn't anywhere near big enough to fit the vast universe inside the Mata Nui robot. They changed it 40 million feet to have it a more realistic size. Now we're going to judge them based on that preliminary size? Does that make Greg a bad writer for changing it? 

 

I don't think so. 

 

But all of this is probably rooted in my personal taste, which admittedly feels so incredibly obvious to me right now that I almost want to bite my tongue with impatience, watching this topic play out. I naturally prefer the simplest answer possible, and seeing all of these more complex answers getting thrown around when the simple answer is right there is quite frustrating. That's probably why I lost my sense of humility there for a second. (It's happened before, though not for awhile, and probably not on here. Huh.)

 

I've been looking for the thing that I've been missing that the simple answer doesn't cover. And I still haven't found it. I get that a lot of people here prefer a more complex answer than I do, and I'm trying to understand why. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by fishers64

[N.S.M.8]

 

 

Therefore, we have a too large a robot for our planet, Watson. Therefore, we either have to shrink our bot or grow the planet. I prefer the "grow the planet" theorem because I like my giant robots to be giant robots, prefer the bonesiii formerly amazing gravity absorption theory because I'm lazy, resist change, and put little stock in LMB Greg who has also said other things I don't agree with. But that's all my taste (still). But it is backed up by Greg himself who said that previous answers take precedent, the 40 million was a previous answer, that wins. End of problem.

 

But if you take Greg's interpretations of gravity to be canon, then Bara Magna can only be slightly larger than Earth size, which means that having a 40 million foot tall robot land on its surface and engage in combat with a 27 million foot tall robot is a fundamental impossibility. We have two canon "facts" that are at odds with each other. That's why I go back to precedent. But it gives that "foot in the door" to the taste to shrink the robot. That taste is immovable obstacle - I'm not going to suddenly make you like the 40 million foot tall robot, no?

 

I figured that nobody would listen to me anyway because everyone wants to shrink the robot. Or at least, a strong majority. And as long as the taste barrier exists, the true voice of reason will always fall on deaf ears. (Just like in Cat in the Hat with the fish.)

 

 

Okay, first off, this is bonesiii levels of condescending. Please don't try to paint yourself as "the true voice of reason" besieged by the thoughtless masses. Those of us who support a smaller size for the robot do because of our reasoning, not despite it.

Thank you, I was afraid to say this.  

 

AS I WAS TYPING, THIS APPEARED:

I knew that something was wrong with that post, and I'm going to remove that line. I've spent too long around that pesky bonelord, and I'm ashamed to show symptoms. In any case, people have a right to their preferences here. No condescension was intended. It was meant as a joke, and I'm sorry I forgot to type the correct   emotes. 

Apology accepted.

 

Same deal here. 33000 ft was tossed around in the backroom. There's a reason it was expanded - 33000 ft isn't anywhere near big enough to fit the vast universe inside the Mata Nui robot. They changed it 40 million feet to have it a more realistic size. Now we're going to judge them based on that preliminary size? Does that make Greg a bad writer for changing it? 

The thing is, a 3150 km (That's 10.3 million feet.  I'm not sure where you get 33000 feet.) robot appeared in published work.  I'm sure that several sizes appeared in concept art before 3150 km, but those sizes didn't appear in published work.  Mata Nui Rising (3150 km) is canon.  Reign of Shadows (12192 km) is canon.  (Journey's End already has one mistake, so it is easy to discard for the purpose of this discussion).  This isn't about some people wanting to change canon to suite their preferences.  Picking ANY number would require us to discount a canon source.  What is the precedent for when two published works disagree on something?

[The 1st Shadow]

Mata Nui Rising (3150 km) is canon.  

Um... What? 

 

Someone, explain why this is even brought up.

 

First, it was a concept idea that was confirmed to be non-canon, and all we ever saw in the MNR animation was a big robot pushing up through an island. Nowhere besides concept art has this number ever shown up.

 

Second, 40 million has shown up many times in canon, where the other NEVER did.

 

So, tell me how you rationalize a non-canon number being canon. (If it already was mentioned, I apologize for missing it. See, Fishers and Bonesii are two of the few making any sense in this topic. The rest of you are bouncing around so much, cluttering your posts with all of the same. So if it was mentioned, I probably skipped over the post containing it because the author of said post fell into that second category. Just saying.)

[N.S.M.8]

 

Mata Nui Rising (3150 km) is canon.  

Um... What? 

 

Someone, explain why this is even brought up.

 

First, it was a concept idea that was confirmed to be non-canon, and all we ever saw in the MNR animation was a big robot pushing up through an island. Nowhere besides concept art has this number ever shown up.

 

Second, 40 million has shown up many times in canon, where the other NEVER did.

 

So, tell me how you rationalize a non-canon number being canon. (If it already was mentioned, I apologize for missing it. See, Fishers and Bonesii are two of the few making any sense in this topic. The rest of you are bouncing around so much, cluttering your posts with all of the same. So if it was mentioned, I probably skipped over the post containing it because the author of said post fell into that second category. Just saying.)

 

 

This can be explained in four steps (again).  If you choose to skip over it (again), that is not on us.

1. Mata Nui Rising is a canon video.  You did not attempt to dispute this.
2. We know that the canon size of the island of Mata Nui is 489.09 km x 243.86 km.  (This seems to be the part that you missed!)
3. We know that the island (of a fixed canon size) is supposed to cover Mata Nui's face.  This allows us to calculate the size of the head shown in the (canon) video.
4. With the (canon) size of the head, we can calculate the (canon?) size of the robot.  The concept art has nothing to do with it.

Whew... please don't make me re-explain this for the 5th time today.  It's a bit annoying.  

 

Using the (undisputably) canon size of the island of Mata Nui gives us the size of the robot shown in the canon video.  This makes that size canon as of the release date of that video.  Greg Later gave us a different number which is ALSO canon.  

 

I'm not trying to dispute one number over the other; I'm trying to get people to acknowledge that there is a conflict in two canon sources.  We have had canon conflict before, why is this any different?

Edited May 2, 2015 by N.S.M.8

[fishers64]

So, tell me how you rationalize a non-canon number being canon. (If it already was mentioned, I apologize for missing it. See, Fishers and Bonesii are two of the few making any sense in this topic. The rest of you are bouncing around so much, cluttering your posts with all of the same. So if it was mentioned, I probably skipped over the post containing it because the author of said post fell into that second category. Just saying.)

Come on, guys, really. Just because I make a mistake doesn't mean that everyone else should jump on the bandwagon and make it too. It's about time - look at the results of that poll - that we recognize that we who are support the canon size are in the minority. 

 

There is no question that the 40 million foot number is indeed canon. But I think we should still change it, as much as I dislike doing it. Because right now we have a bunch of dissatisfied people who are complaining about the size. I think we should consult, and draw up the models that will satisfy them (or use Faber's, although I think it should be a little bigger than that ) and present it to Greg, with reasoning behind it. 

 

Now Greg can reject it. Maybe he will tell us more about why he and the team decided on that number. And there's nothing we can do about that - those people will just have to be unhappy if that's the case. 

 

 

1. With the (canon) size of the head, we can calculate the (canon?) size of the robot.  The concept art has nothing to do with it.

How many heads tall is the robot?

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

Mata Nui Rising (3150 km) is canon.  

Um... What? 

 

Someone, explain why this is even brought up.

 

First, it was a concept idea that was confirmed to be non-canon, and all we ever saw in the MNR animation was a big robot pushing up through an island. Nowhere besides concept art has this number ever shown up.

 

Second, 40 million has shown up many times in canon, where the other NEVER did.

 

So, tell me how you rationalize a non-canon number being canon. (If it already was mentioned, I apologize for missing it. See, Fishers and Bonesii are two of the few making any sense in this topic. The rest of you are bouncing around so much, cluttering your posts with all of the same. So if it was mentioned, I probably skipped over the post containing it because the author of said post fell into that second category. Just saying.)

 

 

This can be explained in four steps (again).  If you choose to skip over it (again), that is not on us.

1. Mata Nui Rising is a canon video.  You did not attempt to dispute this.
2. We know that the canon size of the island of Mata Nui is 489.09 km x 243.86 km.  (This seems to be the part that you missed!)
3. We know that the island (of a fixed canon size) is supposed to cover Mata Nui's face.  This allows us to calculate the size of the head shown in the (canon) video.
4. With the (canon) size of the head, we can calculate the (canon?) size of the robot.  The concept art has nothing to do with it.

Whew... please don't make me re-explain this for the 5th time today.  It's a bit annoying.  

 

Using the (undisputably) canon size of the island of Mata Nui gives us the size of the robot shown in the canon video.  This makes that size canon as of the release date of that video.  Greg Later gave us a different number which is ALSO canon.  

 

I'm not trying to dispute one number over the other; I'm trying to get people to acknowledge that there is a conflict in two canon sources.  We have had canon conflict before, why is this any different?

 

Okay, I'd like to bring up a point that I made a long time ago. The "canon" island dimensions were posted online back in 2001, on one page that wasn't part of the story (bearing in mind that this was also the same era that Hapka wrote the books--errors and misconceptions were very common back then. ). I previously stated that it was in one of the magazines, but I've been corrected since. That is still one source, from a long time ago. The story team has since used (over and over again, through Greg) the 40 million foot number.

 

Which is more canon? The one out-of-story source that existed on one obscure webpage? Or the repeated depiction of the robot in multiple forms of media? Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

[N.S.M.8]

 

 

1. With the (canon) size of the head, we can calculate the (canon?) size of the robot.  The concept art has nothing to do with it.

How many heads tall is the robot?

 

It's kind of heard to tell, but it seems to be around 10-12 heads, with each head being smaller than the island of Mata Nui.  If we grow the heads so that all of the island fits on it, and use my larger estimate (12 heads), we get a maximum size of 5869.08 km or 19,255,511.81 feet.  That's less than half of the 40,000,000 feet from Reign of Shadows.

 

Which is more canon? The one out-of-story source that existed on one obscure webpage? Or the repeated depiction of the robot in multiple forms of media? Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

Which is more canon? Let's look to precedent:

1. Which is more canon?  A webgame that wasn't approved by the story team that said that the Toa Kaita defeated the Manas by destroying their heating towers, or a book that WAS approved by the story team and published later that claims that the Toa Kaita defeated the Manas by freezing them.  It turns out that the old, obscure, (at the time) out-of-story webgame won this one. (Although the book's insistance that there were only two Manas is also canon, so it is arguably a tie.)
2. Which is more canon?  That same same book, which claims that the Toa defeated their shadowy counterparts by using their unity, or the "Encyclopedia Updated" published four years later that claims that the Toa absorbed their shadowy counterparts.  It turns out that the NEW, obscure, out of story encyclopedia one this one.

hmm... The date of the publishing doesn't seem to have an affect, but in both situations an obscure, out-of-story canon source CHANGED what was present in Story Team Approved work...

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Which is more canon? The one out-of-story source that existed on one obscure webpage? Or the repeated depiction of the robot in multiple forms of media? Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

Which is more canon? Let's look to precedent:

1. Which is more canon?  A webgame that wasn't approved by the story team that said that the Toa Kaita defeated the Manas by destroying their heating towers, or a book that WAS approved by the story team and published later that claims that the Toa Kaita defeated the Manas by freezing them.  It turns out that the old, obscure, (at the time) out-of-story webgame won this one. (Although the book's insistance that there were only two Manas is also canon, so it is arguably a tie.)
2. Which is more canon?  That same same book, which claims that the Toa defeated their shadowy counterparts by using their unity, or the "Encyclopedia Updated" published four years later that claims that the Toa absorbed their shadowy counterparts.  It turns out that the NEW, obscure, out of story encyclopedia one this one.

hmm... The date of the publishing doesn't seem to have an affect, but in both situations an obscure, out-of-story canon source CHANGED what was present in Story Team Approved work...

 

Okay, you're getting it backwards now. Hapka didn't always adhere to the story team's decisions--this has been stated time and time again. Research this. Kaita freezing the manas and Toa using unity to defeat their shadows was HAPKA'S decision, not necessarily the story team's. It's not the date I'm talking about--it's the mouth/hand by which the info was delivered that's questionable. I never said anything about the date being more definitive. 

[N.S.M.8]

 

 

Which is more canon? The one out-of-story source that existed on one obscure webpage? Or the repeated depiction of the robot in multiple forms of media? Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

Which is more canon? Let's look to precedent:

1. Which is more canon?  A webgame that wasn't approved by the story team that said that the Toa Kaita defeated the Manas by destroying their heating towers, or a book that WAS approved by the story team and published later that claims that the Toa Kaita defeated the Manas by freezing them.  It turns out that the old, obscure, (at the time) out-of-story webgame won this one. (Although the book's insistance that there were only two Manas is also canon, so it is arguably a tie.)
2. Which is more canon?  That same same book, which claims that the Toa defeated their shadowy counterparts by using their unity, or the "Encyclopedia Updated" published four years later that claims that the Toa absorbed their shadowy counterparts.  It turns out that the NEW, obscure, out of story encyclopedia one this one.

hmm... The date of the publishing doesn't seem to have an affect, but in both situations an obscure, out-of-story canon source CHANGED what was present in Story Team Approved work...

 

Okay, you're getting it backwards now. Hapka didn't always adhere to the story team's decisions--this has been stated time and time again. Research this. Kaita freezing the manas and Toa using unity to defeat their shadows was HAPKA'S decision, not necessarily the story team's. It's not the date I'm talking about--it's the mouth/hand by which the info was delivered that's questionable. I never said anything about the date being more definitive. 

 

It's late and my sarcasm filters were shutting down when I wrote that, but let's get two things straight.  

 

From BS01: 

The book provides another explanation of how the Toa Mata received their Golden Kanohi - they place all of their Kanohi on statues at the Kini-Nui, and their Golden Masks then appear on the statues. In both the Mata Nui Online Game and the BIONICLE: Quest for the Masks Trading Card Game, the Toa collected their Golden Masks from their Suva after placing all their Kanohi on them. As the book was approved by the story team, however, and neither the online game nor the trading card game were, the book's explanation is seen as more canon.

Hapka's book WAS approved by the story team... in 2003.  They didn't really care about 2001 anymore and just let stuff slide through.  

 

I actually agree with you about the dates; I only brought it up to prove that it was meaningless.  I purposely picked two examples where an out-of-story factoid canonically replaced an in story fact.  

Edited May 2, 2015 by N.S.M.8

[The 1st Shadow]

From BS01: 

The book provides another explanation of how the Toa Mata received their Golden Kanohi - they place all of their Kanohi on statues at the Kini-Nui, and their Golden Masks then appear on the statues. In both the Mata Nui Online Game and the BIONICLE: Quest for the Masks Trading Card Game, the Toa collected their Golden Masks from their Suva after placing all their Kanohi on them. As the book was approved by the story team, however, and neither the online game nor the trading card game were, the book's explanation is seen as more canon.

Hapka's book WAS approved by the story team... in 2003.  They didn't really care about 2001 anymore and just let stuff slide through.  

 

I actually agree with you about the dates; I only brought it up to prove that it was meaningless.  I purposely picked two examples where an out-of-story factoid canonically replaced an in story fact.  

 

Doesn't mean that everything in it was entirely accurate. Hapka still didn't always write what the story team decided, so many of those "retconned" examples from there can just as easily be written off as "author didn't pay attention to official info." There was quite a bit of that in the early days, as the theme was still young and things were being figured out. Not to say that many details weren't solidified, but exactly how many of them WERE is open to interpretation. My point was that some miscellaneous details from that early on have often been discarded in favor of more thought-out canon. The question that drives this side of the argument for me is "exactly how much of that is open to interpretation?"

 

Just saying, that one piece of info about the island was never addressed after that point, so I'm waiting to hear some official word that that original number still stands with the canon. Until then, I question how valid it really is.

[maxim21]

It seems to be well supported by the face.

I didn't think to this concept art... But the island seems too small. Taking your estimate of 10-12 heads, the head would be around 315 km - granted the island is shown taking 9/7 of the head size, it would make it around 400 km, still 90 km short (18% of the size).

 

My argument about Journey's End being semi-canon was meant to be taken seriously, so let's just assume you found something wrong that one as well, but chose not to post it.

No, there wasn't anything wrong with the logic of your argument for Journey's End. That's really a matter of taste: even if some parts are non-canon, I find it's better to keep as much of it canon as possible. My second point was really for both Reign of Shadows and Journey's End.

 

This reminds me of the Manas Fight from 2001. We had two different sources saying different things (Tale of the Toa vs. Mata Nui Online Game), and didn't get an answer until much later. So much later, in fact, that there was no new media showing the corrected version. This left newcomers in the dark (unless they searched BS01)

Encyclopedia and BL2 were the medias giving the final version, according to BS01.

 

 

Also, maxim, while everyone here is clearly up for a good debate, you don't seem to be actually providing any new information or making any logical arguments in favour of your particular view. You just seem to be shooting down anything other members say and assuming the fact that 'Greg said it' will make everyone agree with you. Bear in mind that the size of the robot is no longer the only thing being discussed here but also the validity of some of Greg's own work. We already have examples of things he got wrong and even some retcons. If you want to convince those of us who disagree with you that this is not one of those mistakes, you'll need to start giving us some sort of supporting argument

That's the thing: I do not claim the 40 000 000 feet robot make total sense. I think the 10 000 000 feet robot doesn't solve the problems we have and so it's not worth it to change something just for the sake of changing it.

 

Plus, I can't see where I used Greg quotes except to show he actually was consistent with the 40 000 000 feet robot.

 

If the 40 000 000 feet was to be marked as non-canon, I would prefer no official measurement to be canon, leaving everybody with the size they want.

 

There are a few others reasons I prefer the written media number beside it being the actually accepted canon one, but they are mainly a matter of taste. One of them is how hard it is to find a real number in visual media, like N.S.M.8 showed:

 

It's kind of heard to tell, but it seems to be around 10-12 heads, with each head being smaller than the island of Mata Nui. If we grow the heads so that all of the island fits on it, and use my larger estimate (12 heads), we get a maximum size of 5869.08 km or 19,255,511.81 feet. That's less than half of the 40,000,000 feet from Reign of Shadows.

That's odd... That would mean the robot is far from 3000 km in the Mata Nui Rising animation? Even using your smaller estimate, 10 heads, it would make a significantly bigger robot (4890 km high). Or it's the smaller version of the island from the concept art?

 

Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

Did you check the Encyclopedia? If that's stated anywhere, it would be there, I think. Edited May 2, 2015 by maxim21

[MrSciFiGuy]

Canon size. I love the idea of a universe/landmasses in him. Kinda needs to be big for that

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

Did you check the Encyclopedia? If that's stated anywhere, it would be there, I think.

 

Fortunately, my brother has a copy of the updated volume.

 

And no, the supposedly canon dimensions for the island are not listed anywhere in the Mata Nui entry. Doesn't give the size of any other islands, either, so that source is out.

[Millennium]

I think the Matoran Universe as we know it can fit inside a 3300 km robot. Besides the Southern continent and a few other landmasses it's basically a bunch of relatively small islands.

[toa kopaka4372]

 

 

Believe me, I've checked, and no story source ever addresses the dimensions of the island, so I have every reason to question the legitimacy of the number used here.

Did you check the Encyclopedia? If that's stated anywhere, it would be there, I think.

 

Fortunately, my brother has a copy of the updated volume.

 

And no, the supposedly canon dimensions for the island are not listed anywhere in the Mata Nui entry. Doesn't give the size of any other islands, either, so that source is out.

 

Makuta's Guide to the Universe actually tells us that the island is 486 kilometers long and 285 kilometers wide. 

 

I'm against shrinking the robot, but it's only fair that we have all of the information we need in this discussion at hand, regardless of which side it supports.

[bonesiii]

-NS, maybe I just misread what you meant by "supposed to" -- I thought you meant definitely confirmed by the story team as canon (that the island covers the face). The Ghost animation sizes were mentioned in older discussions and was part of that image I made about this, pointing out that that one would have to be non-canon. Not sure if that clears anything up, but yeah.

-I don't think the "old answers stand" rule applies here; as far as I know, Greg didn't say anything one way or another about the gravity prior to the newer answer. All the answer contradicts is my gravity absorption theory, which was made because we didn't have an answer one way or another.

Maybe you mean that it contradicts more indirectly something else, but if so I'm not sure what you'd mean so if so could you clarify? I could guess of course but best to just ask, heh.

-Alvis, since you said "bonesiii condescension" -- no condescension was intended (I don't believe in it; I consider everybody equal ). I just misunderstood somebody's argument (now clarified) as being against having to think, and was pointing out that it can be beneficial for mental exercise, etc. (But mixed it with a joke that wasn't clear,  yadda.) A moot point anyways now since the member didn't mean it that way in the first place; I just misunderstood.

-Interesting argument about applying the "old answers" rule. As I understand it, Greg mainly meant that rule to be about answers he gave after Bionicle ended and he was out of contact for a while, and then started answering questions on the LMB, after a time when he could have easily began forgetting things. While forgetting even while it was still active is easily possible too, it's more likely that at the time most of his major answers were still fresh in his mind.

Also, it referred to his own answers directly as far as I know, never to conceptual work. Interesting idea to apply it anyways, though -- but be careful with it.

-I agree it sounds like Greg may not have been told about the concept number, so there could be something there. This may have come about due to miscommunication (or lack of it) about the size. And resolving that could indeed mean retconning the 40 million number. This warrants further thought!

On the other hand, maybe they did talk it out and decided for something larger, or he might have been aware of it and decided larger (like for the continents thing or something). Again, a question best answered by asking him I'd say (if he remembers).

-fishers -- I think it's jumping the gun to assume (without confirmation) that they changed the size definitely for any particular reason or another. I agree that isn't ruled out, but it isn't proven either, is it? (And to me a more random "picked the number along the way" thing sounds better evidenced, as Munty described it at one point recently.)

-I'm no longer sure keeping the bigger size IS the simpler answer. I agree the simplest answer is the solution, but if we wanna be sure just what that is, we need to think it through. (But we don't need to be sure. Just for fun, and story quality's sake etc. But yes, let's keep personal preferences out of that... on the other hand, a poll like this is probably going to be about them, so maybe not the best topic for a tastes-aside analysis anyways.)

-NS, appearing in published work isn't the same thing as canon and has never been. MNOG, VNOG, Bionicle Heroes, TLR potato moons, Rahaga rotor blades, etc.

Maybe you meant the source has some canon aspects, though? That's true, but the size isn't currently canon.

(But maybe should be. Although I'm hesitant about this specific number until I see the math, as we figured out before that shrinking below about half causes another problem with eyes fitting under the right spots on Mata Nui island. Whatever 20 million feet is should probably be close to the minimum based on that.)

-What JE mistake are you referring to? (But all the sources probably have mistakes.)

-T1S, I'm pretty sure he meant that the recent news implies that the concept number was indeed used in that Ghost animation (actually, I'm not sure of that come to think of it, re: the above half math, and although it wasn't calced as far as I recall, I think I recall thinking that the Ghost size looked like about half.)

Also, could you be a bit more gentle? Your wording seems a bit confrontational to me. Everybody needs to be calm and keep the subject in perspective.

-NS... okay maybe the above isn't your reasoning. Pardon... But I think the connection between Faber and that Ghost animation is still relevant, so yeah. I have a feeling I'm forgetting something on this though... >_>

-fishers, according to my old image, the giant is 12 heads tall. (If mem serves... oh heck I'll just go dig it up... Here. Take it with all the appropriate salt as it doesn't factor a lot of newer points. But yes, 12. Assuming that model is actually canon... I think it's actually from concept art, but the big image on the right does seem to confirm that. Though that's just art too so yeah.)

-T1S, did "the story team use" the number "through Greg" or did Greg alone use the number? I thought it was the latter as far as we know. Let's not read conversations into the story team's history that we don't know whether they had.

-Another thing -- let's not make too much of the 40 million number showing up in a written, published source. As much as retconning it won't be known by pretty much anybody, it's also true that probably only a few of us actually noticed it or cared about it. I don't even remember reading it there myself; I remember it from Greg answers, and that quote from people citing it in topics later. I don't think it hurts anything if Makuta is retconned to have thought a smaller unmber there.

-I agree with NS that the island size isn't up for dispute (as far as I know). (Although that could be retconned too; anything could, but it's currently canon.) And the fact that published does not equal canon works here too, the other way -- published canon isn't all that's canon. Did Greg ever back up the island size? If so, and I would presume he must have been asked this and confirmed it sometime (but don't recall it specifically admittedly), then it's confirmed canon same way the 40 million feet height is, just not in a story source directly. (But "published" in a reference source.)

-NS, it's common knowledge that Hapka's books contain non-canon parts. Not sure where you were going with that, though, so I won't make anything more of it (could you clarify though? ). I'm not sure what you mean by "approved by the story team" -- they allowed it to be published; they didn't say everything in it was run by them or canon.

-Surprises me to hear the island's size isn't in the Encyc. updated. I have the original version, and just checked -- not there either (not surprising if it's not in later, just FTR). The entry is very brief though, at least in the original version -- I wouldn't make anything of it.

-Looks like World doesn't have it either. That one's more detailed, but still no place where I'd definitely expect it; the "Land" section comes closest but it just summarizes the type of landscape, and skimming through the Land sections of the other islands, some are very brief, like Artakha. Karzahni's pretty detailed... Metru Nui doesn't have anything at all in the island-wide part; it goes right into the regions descriptions. Size is mentioned in the VN History section, but only that it was once part of a "much larger" continent. Odina's is surprisingly detailed for such a not-memorable place (for my memory anyways )... And fairly lengthy for the others. But I didn't notice any focus on size.

[toa kopaka4372]

-T1S, did "the story team use" the number "through Greg" or did Greg alone use the number? I thought it was the latter as far as we know. Let's not read conversations into the story team's history that we don't know whether they had.

 

Yes, but let's not pretend that it's conversation the story team couldn't have had. There has never been any evidence of any kind since 2008, as far as I know, to suggest that Greg is the one who decided on the 40 million foot number. Christian Faber made it clear that the number was unknown as of 2007, and that it was decided when the time for the big reveal came. Considering how important this plot reveal was (as it was the foundation of the entire story) I would think that the story team would have discussed it. Munty's case for Greg making up the number based on his initial uncertainty isn't much of a case at all; it's possible that when he was first asked by fans, he and the rest of the story team were still discussing it. Between the first times he was asked and when he finally gave a concrete answer, the story team may have met up and decided on a number. 

 

Also, you may have missed it, but I mentioned above that Makuta's Guide to the Universe gives an actual size for the island of Mata Nui. I checked it myself to confirm.

[bonesiii]

Didn't miss it, was just seeing if other sources did too, since I had those two sitting in reach and was curious. But thanks.

[fishers64]

-I don't think the "old answers stand" rule applies here; as far as I know, Greg didn't say anything one way or another about the gravity prior to the newer answer. All the answer contradicts is my gravity absorption theory, which was made because we didn't have an answer one way or another.

 

Maybe you mean that it contradicts more indirectly something else, but if so I'm not sure what you'd mean so if so could you clarify? I could guess of course but best to just ask, heh.

It's because there are three items logically linked together, almost mathematically linked together: 1) the size of the giant, 2) the size of the planets in question, 3) and the force of gravity emitted by each of these planets. 

 

Size of Aqua Magna > greater than the size of robot, gravity = G * size of planet. Previous media depictions have shown us that the gravity is the same as ours, so it's a constant and can't be changed. Your theory would have reduced G, thus allowing the size of the planet to be bigger. But now G has been confirmed to be the same as our G, meaning that the size of the planet has to be reduced in order for gravity to be normal. Which means that the robot's size has to be reduced to be less than its previous size in order to fit on the planet of reduced size. 

 

(Unless, of course, G is naturally smaller in the Bionicle universe, even before the EP came along. That possibility has not yet been addressed, but I think Greg would kill that too.)

 

However, in my way of thinking, the size of the robot is also an immutable constant. Size of Aqua Magna > 40 million feet. Period, precedent supported answer. (40 million is a constant; gravity is a constant.) Therefore, G must be reduced in order to support the two facts that gravity is normal and the robot is 40 million feet tall.   

 

Therefore, LMB Greg made a mistake again. No need to sweat it; he's already proved his lack of knowledge of astrophysics on more than one occasion.

 

(Not that I would do too much better, were I in the same situation.  This not a Greg-bashing hour; acknowledging that someone made a mistake is different from trying to chop their head off.)

 

But yes, let's keep personal preferences out of that... on the other hand, a poll like this is probably going to be about them, so maybe not the best topic for a tastes-aside analysis anyways.

Exactly.

 

This is my face, about two inches from this chalkboard. These are my claw hands, scraping down on it. Rrrrrrr...

 

-What JE mistake are you referring to? (But all the sources probably have mistakes.)

There's a mention in JE that Makuta's head was clocked by Bota Magna, instead of a moon shard. It's a tiny mistake.

 

(FTR I consider Journey's End, still, to be the most reliable canon source for 2010.)

 

-Another thing -- let's not make too much of the 40 million number showing up in a written, published source. As much as retconning it won't be known by pretty much anybody, it's also true that probably only a few of us actually noticed it or cared about it. I don't even remember reading it there myself; I remember it from Greg answers, and that quote from people citing it in topics later. I don't think it hurts anything if Makuta is retconned to have thought a smaller unmber there.

I got the impression that official story sources took precedent over Greg answers, except those written by Hapka or having stuff that was contradicted by sets. I could drag up the Greg quote on precedence again, but I think you remember that well enough. 

 

Because otherwise, everything would be dependent on which sources' truth you like better. (Hello, real life debate arguments.  "This *biased source* is more factual than this *biased source*!") Me guilty as charged here, but that doesn't mean you get to do it too.

Edited May 2, 2015 by fishers64