Super Advanced Prototype

[Harvali]

It strikes me kind of odd that Av-Matoran are so much more powerful than the other branches of Matoran. They have the ability to fire bolts of light, both male and female members, (a little off topic, but still) the power to change their armor's colors, and they can link up with Toa/Makuta to gain new hidden powers. Yet they were the first tribe of Matoran built, are own Takua was the original prototype. (the only reason he doesn't show off his powers is because he forget who he was, and I personally think his mindlink with Gali was his Toa-combo ability)The question I want to know is, why are the Av-Matoran so powerful compared to later models? The only idea I can think of is that the Matoran of Light abused their powers, but I don't know of any evidence to this end. Bioniclesector01 has nothing on the topic either, so does anyone here know or have a theory?

[The Lorax]

I'm not sure of this either, and the canon has nothing to say on the matter, so here is my guess. After making the av-matoran, the GBs thought "Nah, the Matoran don't really need all those powers to do their jobs. Let's just make the rest less powerful."As for the mindlink thing, all toa have that ability. Its not just Takua's thing.

[T.B.O.C]

I would say this is because the Av-Matoran were the first type of matoran made, and they were built more powerful, which would be toned down in later version of the matoran. It was really the GB's first try at Matoran, and they realized Matoran wouldn't need these excess powers for their duties.

Edited March 23, 2012 by T.B.O.C

[Harvali]

I'm not sure of this either, and the canon has nothing to say on the matter, so here is my guess. After making the av-matoran, the GBs thought "Nah, the Matoran don't really need all those powers to do their jobs. Let's just make the rest less powerful."As for the mindlink thing, all toa have that ability. Its not just Takua's thing.

That is possible, but I get the feeling that the Great Beings are the kind of people to make unnecessary upgrades. I am pretty sure the Skopio didn't need giant cannons of death, and the Vorok/Zesk were doing fine without stingers as far as we know. In my opinion the Great Beings think that if it doesn't hurt, they should go for it. (though the Skopio do hurt)Yeah but no one else does it but Takua and Gali. Edited March 23, 2012 by Tanma

[bonesiii]

Actually the firing bolts of light I see as bringing them up to the level of others to some extent. Changing armor color isn't as practical in most situations as increased strength, seeing well in the dark, etc.And, as (I think) The Lorax is referring to, I thought the mindlink thing was something that anybody can do, just wasn't known until then or something but I'm probably remembering wrong on that. Unclear on the details, if anyone can clear up exactly how that worked that'd be cool.

[The Lorax]

From BS01's page on Toa:

Another power is the ability to forge a mental link with another being, which can be used send them visions of things seen from the eyes of the Toa who created the link.

Any old toa can do it, even though the only ones shown in story were between Gali and Takua/Takanuva.

[bonesiii]

From BS01's page on Toa:

Another power is the ability to forge a mental link with another being, which can be used send them visions of things seen from the eyes of the Toa who created the link.

Any old toa can do it, even though the only ones shown in story were between Gali and Takua/Takanuva.

So is that distinct from this:

and they can link up with Toa/Makuta to gain new hidden powers.

? That's more what I was asking about, although good to know this too. What I was driving at was while this was given as a third Av-Matoran power in the startpost, I was under the impression that wasn't just Av-Matoran but any Matoran. Anybody know?

[fishers64]

Well, all the other Matoran have particular elemental abilities relating to their element. Seeing as light is an element that supposedly inspires friendship, it would seem that the Av-Matoran are given this ability to remind other Matoran and Toa of the power of friendship. Changing the armor color is also related to light...

Actually the firing bolts of light I see as bringing them up to the level of others to some extent. Changing armor color isn't as practical in most situations as increased strength, seeing well in the dark, etc.And, as (I think) The Lorax is referring to, I thought the mindlink thing was something that anybody can do, just wasn't known until then or something but I'm probably remembering wrong on that. Unclear on the details, if anyone can clear up exactly how that worked that'd be cool.

I agree. (You ninja'd me while I was typing this. Grr.)But anyway, mind link can be initiated by any Toa to any Matoran, but Av-Matoran have the special ability to passively intiate the link themselves and can draw power from it. Even if Av-Matoran are overpowered, I think that is a reminder to the rest of the Matoran about the importance of light. Each of the other Matoran have specifically defined roles within the MU, up to the point that no one would question their importance, whereas Av-Matoran are just the repair team for the Universe Core. I think the extra power was singling them out as special.

[The Lorax]

Av-Matoran can link up with Toa or Makuta, and in doing so they gain a unique power and access to the mind of that Toa/Makuta. This is distinct from the link that any toa can create. Only Av-matoran do this.Without a Toa/Makuta, Av-matoran can fire bolts of light andd change their armour colour. I see this as three basic powers, although on of them is in two parts.

[bonesiii]

Wasn't that power due to the tapping into their moral light (or shadow) natures, though? I still seem to recall it being said that anyone could do that if they knew how, maybe not through a link with a Toa/Makuta as the Av-Matoran can, but somehow. Maybe I'm thinking of something else, but it -was- said that all beings (naturally) had both light and shadow in them, of that I'm sure, and that this is distinct from elemental light.

[The Lorax]

All beings had a balance of light and shadow in them. If that balance was tipped in one direction by intense training or a shadow leech, all of one was removed and the being would gain elemental powers of whichever one they had left. This was how Roodaka got her shadow powers, and the Makuta of the Melding Alternate Universe got their light powers.

[Hexann]

They r probably the more powerful ones because they later on become bohrok also the great being probably knew there would wars such as the Matoran civil war and think about what could have happened if the Matoran in the Matoran civil war already had unlocked there elemental powers, the result would be devastating and the whole island of Metru Nui would be destroyed. Also if many people were destroyed in the Matoran civil war then possibly the Matoran who were chosen to be toa would be destroyed as well leaving an opening for Teridax to take control of the universe with out having to deal with any toa.

[bonesiii]

All beings had a balance of light and shadow in them. If that balance was tipped in one direction by intense training or a shadow leech, all of one was removed and the being would gain elemental powers of whichever one they had left. This was how Roodaka got her shadow powers, and the Makuta of the Melding Alternate Universe got their light powers.

Yeah, that must be what I'm thinking of.Anyways, either way, the third power doesn't sound like much more of a benefit for Av versus others, since any Toa can activate it for any Matoran. So yeah, I think I stand by that these things bring them up to a balance with others, so they're not really overpowered. (Also there were no Toa there for a long time.)Hakann, that is an excellent point about becoming Bohrok, too. It all balances out. Edited March 23, 2012 by bonesiii

[Harvali]

I haven't really though of it as balancing out, but it is an interesting approach. I suppose it just matters on the environment and conditions of a situation as to what is stronger.

They r probably the more powerful ones because they later on become bohrok also the great being probably knew there would wars such as the Matoran civil war and think about what could have happened if the Matoran in the Matoran civil war already had unlocked there elemental powers, the result would be devastating and the whole island of Metru Nui would be destroyed. Also if many people were destroyed in the Matoran civil war then possibly the Matoran who were chosen to be toa would be destroyed as well leaving an opening for Teridax to take control of the universe with out having to deal with any toa.

I had forgotten about the Bohrok aspect. I suppose the Bohrok could tie in to this, like how Matoran has passive element energy that becomes active upon becoming a Toa, Av-Matoran have active (though weak) Light elemental energy that becomes acidic, fire, earth, stone, ice, or water upon becoming Bohrok. So the additional power might be a stepping stone to this end. But if the Great Beings realized that there was a potential for civil war, then why not reprogram their devices to stop making light shooting Av-Matoran as well as making other tribes "weaker?" They changed the settings for Ce-Matoran after that incident with Orde (which confuses me as well) so why couldn't they use that strategy here?

[fishers64]

But if the Great Beings realized that there was a potential for civil war, then why not reprogram their devices to stop making light shooting Av-Matoran as well as making other tribes "weaker?" They changed the settings for Ce-Matoran after that incident with Orde (which confuses me as well) so why couldn't they use that strategy here?

I don't expect that the Great Beings anticipated the Matoran having a civil war. They didn't even expect Matoran to become sapient, much less have emotions that would lead to quarrels and civil war. Also, Matoran have to have certain characteristics to do their jobs. Making them weaker would jeopardize the robot's mission - you would like your workers to live for more than a few days so they can learn things and adapt to change.

[Cratak]

What I think might have been the answer for the original question is that the Great Beings realized that if all other Matoran where this powerful, if there were wars, there would be much more casualties and such. So, they made the Toa as protectors.

[Harvali]

But if the Great Beings realized that there was a potential for civil war, then why not reprogram their devices to stop making light shooting Av-Matoran as well as making other tribes "weaker?" They changed the settings for Ce-Matoran after that incident with Orde (which confuses me as well) so why couldn't they use that strategy here?

I don't expect that the Great Beings anticipated the Matoran having a civil war. They didn't even expect Matoran to become sapient, much less have emotions that would lead to quarrels and civil war. Also, Matoran have to have certain characteristics to do their jobs. Making them weaker would jeopardize the robot's mission - you would like your workers to live for more than a few days so they can learn things and adapt to change.

I am aware that they didn't expect a civil war, I was merely pointing out that even if the Great Beings had suspected Civil War was a possibility, it won't have made sense for them to only downgrade the other tribes of Matoran. Instead it would make more sense for them to make it so all later generations of Av-Matoran were also less damaging, like how they made it so all Ce-Matoran were female after Orde. I said nothing about the likelihood of the Great Beings predicting the Civil War, personally I think the Great Beings were horrible at guessing possible failures, otherwise they would have more safeguards about the Makuta and less about the I didn't think the Civil War was relevant to the topic, so I just didn't address it.I am afraid I wasn't clear here, I do not mean physically weak at all. Rather I meant that other Matoran do not have as many abilities as Av-Matoran. Av-Matoran are the prototype, so the fact that other Matoran don't have as many features could make them seem weaker by comparison. Most tribes have only one ability, like how Ta-Matoran can withstand more heat and Onu-Matoran can see in the dark; however the Av-Matoran have several. Does this explain it better?Which reminds me, some Matoran have a trade off in their powers. Le-Matoran are agile in the trees but clumsy on land, while Onu- Matoran can see well in the dark but are practically blind in sunlight. Po-Matoran are strong but have trouble swimming, and De-Matoran have great hearing to the point of pain. As far as I know Av-Matoran have no such official weakness, and the same is true for other breeds like Ga-Matoran. I suppose one could guess that Ta-Matoran are weak to cold and Ko-Matoran the reverse, and Av-Matoran are probably weak to shadow, but is there official confirmation on whether all Natoran have a weakness of sorts? Edited March 23, 2012 by Tanma

[Makuta Matata]

Maybe the GB's didn't want the Matoran to be too powerful after they saw what they did with the Av-Matoran, so they made them weaker...

[fishers64]

But if the Great Beings realized that there was a potential for civil war, then why not reprogram their devices to stop making light shooting Av-Matoran as well as making other tribes "weaker?" They changed the settings for Ce-Matoran after that incident with Orde (which confuses me as well) so why couldn't they use that strategy here?

I don't expect that the Great Beings anticipated the Matoran having a civil war. They didn't even expect Matoran to become sapient, much less have emotions that would lead to quarrels and civil war.Also, Matoran have to have certain characteristics to do their jobs. Making them weaker would jeopardize the robot's mission - you would like your workers to live for more than a few days so they can learn things and adapt to change.

I am aware that they didn't expect a civil war, I was merely pointing out that even if the Great Beings had suspected Civil War was a possibility, it won't have made sense for them to only downgrade the other tribes of Matoran. Instead it would make more sense for them to make it so all later generations of Av-Matoran were also less damaging, like how they made it so all Ce-Matoran were female after Orde. I said nothing about the likelihood of the Great Beings predicting the Civil War, personally I think the Great Beings were horrible at guessing possible failures, otherwise they would have more safeguards about the Makuta and less about the I didn't think the Civil War was relevant to the topic, so I just didn't address it.I am afraid I wasn't clear here, I do not mean physically weak at all. Rather I meant that other Matoran do not have as many abilities as Av-Matoran. Av-Matoran are the prototype, so the fact that other Matoran don't have as many features could make them seem weaker by comparison. Most tribes have only one ability, like how Ta-Matoran can withstand more heat and Onu-Matoran can see in the dark; however the Av-Matoran have several. Does this explain it better?Which reminds me, some Matoran have a trade off in their powers. Le-Matoran are agile in the trees but clumsy on land, while Onu- Matoran can see well in the dark but are practically blind in sunlight. Po-Matoran are strong but have trouble swimming, and De-Matoran have great hearing to the point of pain. As far as I know Av-Matoran have no such official weakness, and the same is true for other breeds like Ga-Matoran. I suppose one could guess that Ta-Matoran are weak to cold and Ko-Matoran the reverse, and Av-Matoran are probably weak to shadow, but is there official confirmation on whether all Natoran have a weakness of sorts?

I'm sorry I misinterpreted your post. I see where you are coming from now.The thing is, more abilities does not always equal more power. The Av-Matoran have two documented abilities that are confirmed as specifically only to them, whereas other Matoran only have one. But the two abilites that the Av-Matoran have aren't all that powerful in and of themselves. Changing the color of one's armor to blend in (or for vanity) isn't going to do you too many favors because your enemy can still see your three dimensional shape. Blasting light at people has limited utility as well; you can blind people, see in the dark (maybe, if you can maintain the energy) and possibly annoy a Makuta. Oh, and you might be able to blast through a little rock.The other Matoran, by contrast, have pretty potent powers. If a fire burns down half a Metru, Ta-Matoran will survive it; Ga-Matoran can swim without much practice, Le-Matoran have zen climbing skills. Thus, the two Av-Matoran powers together= the powers of a regular Matoran.Ga-Matoran's weakness, as far as I am aware, is them being more susceptible to dehydration in a desert. But that's another point; while most Matoran are adapted to the environment of their universe, Av-Matoran fit nowhere in terms of the environment inside the MU. They will be susceptible to the heat in Ta-Metru, drowning in Ga-Metru, falling in Le-Metru. They can be overcome by mental attack and electricity and intense cold. And throw in the shadow weakness on top of that, and you can tell that they are the prototype.

Anyways, either way, the third power doesn't sound like much more of a benefit for Av versus others, since any Toa can activate it for any Matoran. So yeah, I think I stand by that these things bring them up to a balance with others, so they're not really overpowered. (Also there were no Toa there for a long time.)

Av-Matoran also gain special light-based powers when physically linked to a Toa or Makuta.

It doesn't have to do with mindlink; it has to do with physical contact. And it's a special ability.

[Vandenreich]

Actually the firing bolts of light I see as bringing them up to the level of others to some extent. Changing armor color isn't as practical in most situations as increased strength, seeing well in the dark, etc.And, as (I think) The Lorax is referring to, I thought the mindlink thing was something that anybody can do, just wasn't known until then or something but I'm probably remembering wrong on that. Unclear on the details, if anyone can clear up exactly how that worked that'd be cool.

Well a beam of light could always help you in the dark :sigh:Oh and one question about Gali and Takua/Takanuva's Mind link How exactly was that Mind Link created Takua didnt know how to create one and I dont think Gali did either ?Only theory I got that the Mind link was made when Takua and Gali met for the first time in Karda-Nui and it just lasted until then but it doesnt reallly explain how either knew about it ?

[bonesiii]

I think all six Toa Mata probably knew about it once as part of their special training. It's true they forgot most of their history, but they did not forget language, and are also confirmed to have remembered at least their mask usage training. It's thus highly likely that they wouldn't have forgotten the mind link thing. Maybe they did, but Gali intuitively sensed it vaguely from memory, and only Gali, so the others might not have realized they could do it too.Also, about the civil war thing, I dunno if this really helps clear anything up, but keep in mind they designed Marendar under the theory that Toa might go berserk and need stopped. So the GBs were aware that beings in the MU could turn destructive. This doesn't necessarily require the development of a freewill; glitches could do it too.And correction noted about the Av-link. Still, considering the Bohrok thing it's pretty much balanced.