Toa of Green and Creating Life

[Loading...]

The simplistic form of my question is whether or not a Toa of Plant Life can create plant life from thin air using thier Elemetal Energy, and whether they can create different forms of plant life (Trees vs. Vines vs. Fowers). I guess another question would then be whether a Toa of Plant Life could create, in theory, an endless supply of food (friut, nuts, vegetables) though the recharging of their EE.

[bonesiii]

1 & 3) Yes and yes. This is basically the same question that was just asked in another topic (though about different elements but the rules are the same); see my more detailed answer here.

 

2) Yes as well. Toa with variety within their element can make all varieties within it.

 

Does this make it clear?

[Cratak]

Actually, it's impossible for Toa to create. For instance, Kopaka cannot make ice out of thin air, he just freezes the water in the air (which causes humidity) and gathers it all into whatever shape he wants, i.e. ice blast. Of course, one would think that Toa of Gravity or Magnetism would be creating their forces. Actually, they are merely redistributing energy, perhaps even converting the useless energy left by natural chemical reactions into the Toa's element energy (meaning Gravity, Magnetism, etc., and not to be confused with EE), which gives the appearance of creating energy. Actually, Toa of Magnetism might actually just reform polar atoms to have their negative and postive sides face according to whatever he wants to magnetize.

 

But that's a little off topic.

 

To seal the deal, we can just take a look at the law of conservation of mass-energy and the first law of thermodynamics. They basically state that during normal (realistic, not miraculous) situations, matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Of course, they can be converted, but not wiped out of existence. Now, the flaw in what I just said is somewhat obvious. "Realistic" or "Not miraculous" in the real world might not be barriers in the Bionicle Universe. But, before you think they can create because it's just a story, I want to point out that there has not been one instance yet where something has just been created. At least, nothing confirmed to have been created (unless I missed something).

 

To review, the answer is most likely a no. I'm not going to absolutely confirm it, just because there might be a slight possibility, but it's pretty much a no.

 

 

But let's say the Toa of Plant Life is in a forested area. Is it possible for him/her to have an endless supply of food if he wears a modified Mask of Elemental Energy? I'd say that it's most likely a yes, because he/she could probably accelerate the growth rate of the plants around him/her. But that's just a theory.

 

 

Edit: Ninja'd!

Edited March 27, 2013 by Cratak

[Hitoshura]

According to BS01, you can creat plants if you're a Toa of the Green. Therefore, you could create an unlimited supply of food if you keep on recharging it. See here for more.

[Cratak]

I rest my case.

[Loading...]

If they could create any variety within, then, in theory, could a Toa of Green create something as sentient and intelligent as the Morbussak...Morbuzz...I won't even try, you know what I mean hopefully. Could they create something that powerful? It has felt like Toa of Plant Life are "push-overs", especially considering the only one we've seen died so...easily, but with power like this they could be seen as much more of a threat. =\

[Chro]

I'd say that they could; they'd have to be strong-willed to control something like that though. But if it was just a massive mess of writhing thorny vines, yeah, no problem.

To seal the deal, we can just take a look at the law of conservation of mass-energy and the first law of thermodynamics. They basically state that during normal (realistic, not miraculous) situations, matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

I probably don't need to say this, but Bionicle physics, dude. The same laws that apply to us don't apply, necessarily, in Bionicle. And while there may not be any explicit times stating that they've created energy (I'll assume there isn't for the sake of this post), it is stated on BS01 that they can, as TD7 said.

[bonesiii]

Actually, it's impossible for Toa to create. For instance, Kopaka cannot make ice out of thin air, he just freezes the water in the air (which causes humidity) and gathers it all into whatever shape he wants, i.e. ice blast.

That's incorrect. He can make new water as well, but only in its solid form. They aren't creating it just "out of thin air" but rather (as Loading... said) "from thin air using th[ei]r Eleme[n]tal Energy".

 

Of course, he can freeze water in the air too, since he makes (fictional) cold energy.

 

Actually, they are merely redistributing energy, perhaps even converting the useless energy left by natural chemical reactions into the Toa's element energy (meaning Gravity, Magnetism, etc., and not to be confused with EE), which gives the appearance of creating energy.

I'm a little confused, since you acknowledge elemental energy, but then say that they're not creating their energy. They're not making something out of literally nothing if that's what you meant, but that wasn't what was being asked.

 

We don't know how EE is made in the normal recharging (although they can absorb it from their element, with an added rule against holding absorbed EE permanently). Probably from the energy they get by eating and breathing, though, yeah.

 

To seal the deal, we can just take a look at the law of conservation of mass-energy and the first law of thermodynamics. They basically state that during normal (realistic, not miraculous) situations, matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Of course, they can be converted, but not wiped out of existence. Now, the flaw in what I just said is somewhat obvious. "Realistic" or "Not miraculous" in the real world might not be barriers in the Bionicle Universe. But, before you think they can create because it's just a story, I want to point out that there has not been one instance yet where something has just been created. At least, nothing confirmed to have been created (unless I missed something).

It appears you simply missed that he wasn't saying "out of nothing" but out of EE. It's conversion, as you say, not a violation of that law.

 

(Of course, I'm aware of at least one way that law need not apply, and as far as I know Greg has never explicitly confirmed that the laws is absolute. But that's off-topic here; PM me if you're curious. I mentioned it once in the ancient past lol. Suffice to say, IMO the law IS absolute in Bionicle and it's all conversion.)

 

Anywho...

 

But let's say the Toa of Plant Life is in a forested area. Is it possible for him/her to have an endless supply of food if he wears a modified Mask of Elemental Energy? I'd say that it's most likely a yes, because he/she could probably accelerate the growth rate of the plants around him/her. But that's just a theory.

Well, ignoring "modified" for now, Greg has apparently confirmed that the Mask of EE is literally a one-time use. Any Toa that uses one drains that mask of its power permanently and it's useless in the future. (So it has very different rules than all other known powers so far.)

 

If a modified one existed that could recharge, yes (I've used this idea in my fanfics). But canonically there may be a GB rule against it.

 

Of course, they aren't likely to need food so often that a mask of EE would even be needed, at least to feed themselves. They can just wait until their EE recharges naturally to make more, etc. That would only become a problem IMO if they needed to feed a large population as well.

 

 

If they could create any variety within, then, in theory, could a Toa of Green create something as sentient and intelligent as the Morbussak...Morbuzz...I won't even try, you know what I mean hopefully.

Morbuzahk. Or the fan nickname Morby is always good.

 

I would wager no (if I believed in wagering...), but not sure if it was ever stated. I would think the Ignika would be needed for that.

 

Could they create something that powerful? It has felt like Toa of Plant Life are "push-overs", especially considering the only one we've seen died so...easily, but with power like this they could be seen as much more of a threat. =

Seriously? They can make vines instantly to trap most enemies, strangle if they went evil, make poisonous plants (including nonfatal stun poisons), even make carnivorous plants. And their creations can go on defending them actively (at least via nonneurological means, like real carnivorous plants, as well as for example a castle made of poisonous wood, etc.), unlike nearly all others. I'd say they border on overpowered compared to others. Even without enabling minds to be included (and part of why I assume they aren't as then they'd be even more overpowered...)

 

In fact, you can make the case that an army of roaming carnivorous plants under your direct elemental control (for example...) would be far more powerful than giving a plant servant sapience, which comes with freewill and the ability to disobey. You could get lucky, but yeah.

 

As for dying easily, I don't really recall it, but it's irrelevant. Any Toa can die easily if ambushed, up against a foe that is a good situational match against them, etc.

 

And while there may not be any explicit times stating that they've created energy (I'll assume there isn't for the sake of this post), it is stated on BS01 that they can, as TD7 said.

It isn't stated that they can make new energy out of nothing. It slowly recharges, but it's not known how this works. There's no need for a violation of a law of physics any more than a rechargeable battery violates physics. And for the normal system that obviously has been stated and shown, like when the Toa Metru ran out of EE in the 2004 plot. And Greg's explained it many times etc.

Edited March 27, 2013 by bonesiii

[Cratak]

That's incorrect. He can make new water as well, but only in its solid form. They aren't creating it just "out of thin air" but rather (as Loading... said) "from thin air using th[ei]r Eleme[n]tal Energy".

------------

I'm a little confused, since you acknowledge elemental energy, but then say that they're not creating their energy. They're not making something out of literally nothing if that's what you meant, but that wasn't what was being asked.

------------

We don't know how EE is made in the normal recharging (although they can absorb it from their element, with an added rule against holding absorbed EE permanently). Probably from the energy they get by eating and breathing, though, yeah.

 

My bad, I not only breezed right by that, I misunderstood what EE really is.

 

Funny what not researching everything will do to you.

[Loading...]

Seriously? They can make vines instantly to trap most enemies, strangle if they went evil, make poisonous plants (including nonfatal stun poisons), even make carnivorous plants. And their creations can go on defending them actively (at least via nonneurological means, like real carnivorous plants, as well as for example a castle made of poisonous wood, etc.), unlike nearly all others. I'd say they border on overpowered compared to others. Even without enabling minds to be included (and part of why I assume they aren't as then they'd be even more overpowered...)

 

In fact, you can make the case that an army of roaming carnivorous plants under your direct elemental control (for example...) would be far more powerful than giving a plant servant sapience, which comes with freewill and the ability to disobey. You could get lucky, but yeah.

 

As for dying easily, I don't really recall it, but it's irrelevant. Any Toa can die easily if ambushed, up against a foe that is a good situational match against them, etc.

The only reason I thought Toa of Green were weak was because of this question, whether they could create plants. I thought they could only control plants that pre-existed, a weakness in a foliage deficient world like the MU.

[Takanuvainika]

Toa can create their element from absolutely nothing, but it's difficult as shown when Lewa created an air bubble in space when Makuta teleported him and the others out of the matoran universe.

[bonesiii]

Toa can create their element from absolutely nothing, but it's difficult as shown when Lewa created an air bubble in space when Makuta teleported him and the others out of the matoran universe.

1) Not from absolutely nothing -- from elemental energy. See previous posts.

 

2) It's not difficult. Watch Kopaka slinging a beam of ice for example. Keeping air in a bubble shape is about control, not about making. It was already established in earlier years that it's hard for Toa of Air to create a vacuum, because air naturally wants to fill it. This was the same thing in reverse -- they were in space, so it's hard to make the air stay in one place instead of dissipating. That has nothing to do with how easy or hard it is to make new air.

 

Of course, it's harder than controlling existing elements, so I'm probably overthinking your word choice, just wanna be clear. (Or at least, it spends more EE. Dunno if it's any harder, mentally speaking.)

Edited March 28, 2013 by bonesiii