17 replies to this topic

[Podu]

*Not sure if this one has been suggested before, as I didn't search the old forum...

So here's a list of facts related to Antidermis:
1. They make Matoran suceptible to suggestions.
2. The Makuta were made up of this substance.
3. Brutaka's species, when taking in Antidermis (at least, in liquid/gaseous form), can become more powerful or even get "possessed" by the Antidermis.
4. The Antidermis, like the Energized Protodermis, is sapient and apparently has some knowledge of Mata Nui's mission.

My Theory: Mata Nui intended that the Makuta species would eventually "expires" and turn into the gaseous Antidermis, and for good reasons:
A. Teridax, whose destiny is to control the other robot, can easily access to the robot's "mind", and;
B. The "expiration" time of the Makuta would be an indication of that something went wrong for Mata Nui's mission and he is taking longer time than he originally thought he needed to accomplish his task(s), and thus needed a better "body" condition. And since his system is made up of Matoran as his "cells", he would need them to work harder. The Makuta, who were told by Miserix to oversee parts of MU, would turn into gaseous Antidermis (and lose their will) and since their armor wasn't designed to hold Antidermis, would eventually cause an Antidermis leak into the MU, thus infecting the Matoran. Brutaka's species would be infected as well, and would eventually get possessed by the Antidermis, who would then command the Matoran on how to improve their work as cells of MN.

But what happened was that when the day the Makuta turned into the gaseous Antidermis, Mata Nui was taken down; as a result, MN cannot interfere even if the Makuta were to take actions to adapt to the changes and thus nothing happened (probably within Teridax's calculations).



Now come and find holes in my theory
(Edit: Fixed some typos)

Edited by Podu, Sep 20 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[Ballom]

In addition to what you said, the development of sapience in the MU could have prevented the proper dispersion of gaseous antidermis once the Makuta evolved into it, as it allowed the Makuta to seek out the Nynrah Ghosts to craft them new armor.

However, to find some holes in the theory. There are some major ones, as I can tell. First, if the Golden Armor was intended as a safeguard against Makuta, why did the evolution into gaseous antidermis render it moot? If the Golden Armor only affects solid antidermis, that suggests the gaseous form wasn't intended. Also, originally, the Makuta were not distributed one per dome; that only happened afer the Matoran Civil War. Since the Civil War was probably not foreseen by the Great Beings, they would have had no reason to expect the Makuta to ever be evenly distributed, much less at a certain time when evolution to gaseous antidermis would take place.

~B~

Edited by Ballom, Sep 19 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[bonesiii]

Disclaimer: The Gold Key to Nongu Award does not certify theory accuracy. The sponsor of the Gold Key to Nongu Award does not neccessarily endorse and/or oppose said theory. The sponsor of the Gold Key to Nongu Award remains ignorant of the exact meaning of the word "Nongu." The originator of the term "Nongu" may or may not be insane. Not available in some domes, void where prohibited.



This could easily be false, but you cleverly incorporated all the major clues in a simple explanation that has a very useful function. I would add, this fits the Safeguards R Us rule about the GBs too. Brilliant!

[Meta-Mind]

A. Teridax, whose denstiny is to control the other robot, can easily access to the robot's "mind", and;
B. The "expiration" time of the Makuta would be an indication of that something went wrong for Mata Nui's mission and he is taking longer time than he originally thought he needed to accomplish his task, and thus needed a better "body" condition. And since his system is made up of Matoran as his "cells", he would need them to work harder. The Makuta, who were told by Miserix to oversee parts of MU, would turn into Antidermis (and lose their will) and since their armor isn't designed to hold Antidermis, would eventually cause an Antidermis leak into the MU, thus infecting the Matoran. Brutaka's species would be infected as well, and would eventually get possessed by the Antidermis, who would than command the Matoran on how to improve their work as cells of MN.

Well, the thing is that the Makuta "evolved" all at the same time, on the exact same day Mata Nui would have arrived at Bara Magna - not afterwards - which rules out your "taking too long" theory. Perhaps, rather than being intended to "mind control" the Matoran, this was a side effect of Antidermis's possessing abilities? Your first point, though, is perfectly valid, and makes a lot of sense.

[Makuta Matata]

It seems quite plausible.

[The Iron Toa]

I think the Antidermis enslavement used by the Piraka was based on the same principle as infected Kanohi and Kohlii balls. It's all exposure to Makuta essence in some way, and though the Kohlii balls just made them sick, I remember Onewa saying he feared the plague would develop into Makuta's influence (he called it the Madness). So you should add that Makuta can impose their will over the minds of other beings via Antidermis. Actually, does that mean a Makuta can completely possess a living being (besides Kanohi Iden users)? I remember in the Mutran Chronicles, Chirox speculates it could be possible soon after their evolution into gas.

Speaking of their evolution, that actually happened about halfway between Teridax's takeover of the Brotherhood and the Great Cataclysm. I think Mata Nui's mission was actually right on schedule until the Cataclysm, actually, so I doubt their evolution was some sort of emergency system activating. I agree that it makes sense Makuta would become gas to facilitate Teridax's possession of the Great Spirit Robot. But the idea that the Golden Armor was meant to counter Makuta makes less sense in that case, as it only works on organic Antidermis. I also agree with your idea that Brutaka's species was meant to have some sort of symbiosis with the Makuta. Perhaps they were meant to serve the Brotherhood as elite guardians or something. Alternatively, they could have been made as another anti-Makuta countermeasure. If complete Antidermis possession doesn't just work on Brutaka's species, maybe they're actually more resistant to Antidermis's influence. I imagine the primordial Antidermis pool the Makuta came from would have a very strong mind. I wonder what would happen if one of them wore an infected mask, or if they could get stronger by 'eating' Kraata.

[Click]

You know, that is a very good idea. It kind of explains a few things, like why they evolved so quickly, and the Zamor possession. Definitely deserves Bonesiii's award! I just have a few ideas about it.
1. I think I heard someone say it would take exactly 100,000 years for the planets to line up so Mata Nui could merge them. Don't know if this was a theory, or where they got it, but if so, the Makuta evolving wouldn't help in the timeframe it happened in.

2. About the Golden Armor, I was thinking it was as a failsafe if the Makuta turned evil if they had remained solid. If they had spread out and infected the Matoran, it would leave their essence too spread out to really form a Makuta to make a plan. If this plan had worked, the Golden Armor wouldn't be needed, it was just another GB failsafe just in case.

3. This could also explain why Teridax wanted to act so fast. Maybe he was delayed or something, but the original council to take over took place long before the evolution, setting into motion the plan to take over, so it could either happen before or during the evolution. If before, they would maybe be able to try and stop the evolution, and if during, Teridax could surprise Mata Nui just in time to take over. It could easily be one of those facts that Tren Krom revealed about the universe.

Great idea! I hope this is accurate, because it would go a long way in fanfic.

[bonesiii]

2. About the Golden Armor, I was thinking it was as a failsafe if the Makuta turned evil if they had remained solid. If they had spread out and infected the Matoran, it would leave their essence too spread out to really form a Makuta to make a plan. If this plan had worked, the Golden Armor wouldn't be needed, it was just another GB failsafe just in case.

I agree with this. Do we have confirmation the gaseous thing was unforeseen? That's what I think we would need to disprove this. I always got the impression it was always planned.

Also, was the pool originally gaseous? I thought it was, but Makuta were made from it much like Kraata from Makuta. I've never heard the pool was ever solid, but could be wrong. This would provide strong evidence that gaseous Makuta were planned.

Also, the Golden Armor still works against Kraata/Rahkshi, so there is still motive to make it against solid antidermis, even if it's known that the Makuta themselves would later become immune to it. Actually, do we know it would have zero effect even on gaseous antidermis?



Not sure I get the other timeframe arguments many of you are making. The Makuta continue to be gaseous antidermis, so if they had remained good, and if at any time Mata Nui went astray as this theory suggests, the Makuta, Matoran, and Brutaka's species could be used as this theory suggests. No? Maybe I'm missing something though...

[~Shockwave~]

that sounds plausible. but I just feel like I'm missing something I guess. but that's probably not your fault.

and why didn't my mask of invisibility theory get a key?

[Ballom]

Also, the Golden Armor still works against Kraata/Rahkshi, so there is still motive to make it against solid antidermis, even if it's known that the Makuta themselves would later become immune to it. Actually, do we know it would have zero effect even on gaseous antidermis?

From BS01:

The Golden Armor was designed to destroy all solid Antidermis within the area. The Makuta species was originally composed of solid Antidermis, but eventually evolved into a gaseous state, rendering them immune to the effects of the Golden Armor.

~B~

[Click]

...
Not sure I get the other timeframe arguments many of you are making. The Makuta continue to be gaseous antidermis, so if they had remained good, and if at any time Mata Nui went astray as this theory suggests, the Makuta, Matoran, and Brutaka's species could be used as this theory suggests. No? Maybe I'm missing something though...

Yeah, I guess I'm never very good at explaining things, but I'm glad my #2 made it through clearly!

So, basically, I remember hearing that it took 100,000 years for Aqua Magna and Bota Magna to properly align so they could be merged back together, but that might have been a fan theory. So, if this was supposed to be a plan to make Mata Nui work harder to get them together, it was timed all wrong, and according to this theory, the merging wouldn't have worked because the fragments weren't in the proper place. Could be wrong though. Just one of my nitpicks.

And for #3, I was thinking that this could be one thing that Tren Krom revealed to Mutran, that the Makuta would evolve to gaseous antidermis at a certain period of time. Mutran told Teridax about this, and Teridax realized the need to hurry and carry out his plan and/or was preparing for it. So, possibly, the Makuta could have prepared for such a circumstance, and had their armor modified enough so that Antidermis evolution wouldn't faze them as much, and they could finish the armor when the evolution actually happens. Perhaps Teridax kept this a secret, but told the Makuta to make their armor airtight as "an extra percaution."

And if you are saying I didn't say even a semblance of that, you would be right. What I actually said in the above post was that if/when Teridax realized this alarming fact, he pushed his plan even further, getting all the neccessary things done such as killing those that opposed him and all the other set up he needed. He realized if he could take over in time, he might be able to reverse/stop the change from happening, thus ending in all the Makuta scattered around the universe and probably ending his dreams of grandeur. Hope that's a little clearer.

[bonesiii]

So, basically, I remember hearing that it took 100,000 years for Aqua Magna and Bota Magna to properly align so they could be merged back together, but that might have been a fan theory.

Greg confirmed that. Well, I dunno about "properly align"; I think it was a structural instability in the moons themselves that needed that much time to stabilize. But the time, yes.

So, if this was supposed to be a plan to make Mata Nui work harder to get them together, it was timed all wrong, and according to this theory, the merging wouldn't have worked because the fragments weren't in the proper place.

I still don't see what timing was wrong. Are you saying that just because the timing of the merging is later than the timing of the gaseousifying, that that makes timing off any way? That's what it sounds like, but the transformation just enables them to do as the theory suggests, and any length of time after that doesn't disable the option...

In fact I'd think it would make sense to have them transform way early in case the time for merging was way overestimated. Or just to make sure there's a buffer zone to play it safe. The earlier the better, right?


I think I agree about your #3 point, my bad for making it sound like I didn't.

[Podu]

I am glad that I recieve so many positive feedbacks

It is a very hasty theory, one that just comes to mind when I read Destiny War at the part where the Antidermis reacted violently to Brutaka's pressence (or, at least, that is what it seemed to me)

FYI, I didn't consider timing at all, so something might not make sense in regards of sequence of events

Also, originally, the Makuta were not distributed one per dome; that only happened afer the Matoran Civil War. Since the Civil War was probably not foreseen by the Great Beings, they would have had no reason to expect the Makuta to ever be evenly distributed, much less at a certain time when evolution to gaseous antidermis would take place.

Well it seems to be that MN saw to that the Matoran weren't behaving as they should, and thus prepared for this Antidermis thing to work by planting this thought into Miserix's mind.

Edit: Apparently I won the Key to Nongu Award. Didn't notice it at the first time Thanks, bonesii!

Edited by Podu, Sep 20 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[darkslizer]

Well, the Makuta may have been made of Antidermis, but they were never really meant to evolve into the "Spirit" form, as I like to call it, so wouldn't that mean that the whole thing was moot. Also, since the Golden Armor was meant as a safeguard against the darkness, This makes your theory make less sense. Also, as a side note, I don't think that Brutaka's species was the only one that can be posessed by Antidermis, but I assume it was the only one shown as of yet. Wonderful theory, though. But personally, I wouldn't want the Makuta to just evaporate and help improve the "cells" in Mata Nui, because that would make Teridax's whole plan pointless, and that would just stink.

Edited by darkslizer, Sep 20 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Podu]

Well, the Makuta may have been made of Antidermis, but they were never really meant to evolve into the "Spirit" form, as I like to call it, so wouldn't that mean that the whole thing was moot. Also, since the Golden Armor was meant as a safeguard against the darkness, This makes your theory make less sense. Also, as a side note, I don't think that Brutaka's species was the only one that can be posessed by Antidermis, but I assume it was the only one shown as of yet. Wonderful theory, though. But personally, I wouldn't want the Makuta to just evaporate and help improve the "cells" in Mata Nui, because that would make Teridax's whole plan pointless, and that would just stink.

1. Where was it stated that they were never meant to be turned into "Spirit" form?
2. It was to against solid Antidermis, which can be used against the Makuta before they became gas, or the Rahkshi/Kraata they create. I guess Mata Nui thought that the Makuta in gas form won't pose much threat despite having access to mental powers. Remember, Mata Nui could never expect that he was struck down when the Makuta turns into gas.
3. There're probably more, but that just proves my point.
4. How does that make it pointless?

[northmarch]

Interesting theory.
I had this thought that Antidermis was just a byproduct of creating standard proto from energized proto. And the great beings just incorporated it into the MU system.

[fishers64]

Also, the Golden Armor still works against Kraata/Rahkshi, so there is still motive to make it against solid antidermis, even if it's known that the Makuta themselves would later become immune to it. Actually, do we know it would have zero effect even on gaseous antidermis?

From BS01:

The Golden Armor was designed to destroy all solid Antidermis within the area. The Makuta species was originally composed of solid Antidermis, but eventually evolved into a gaseous state, rendering them immune to the effects of the Golden Armor.

~B~

Yes, but evolving into a gaseous state actually allowed them to make more Kraata/Rahkshi, making the Golden Armour even more useful in a sense.

The one thing that seems off to me about this theory is that the evolution happened too far before the Makuta's takeover for Mata Nui to be able to do something about it. Maybe he was too proccupied with the whole Bara Magna repairing thing to notice, however.

I think it is more likely that the Makuta evolved so Teridax could take over Mata Nui's body. The rest of the idea sort of makes sense, although if they hadn't adapted that purpose of Teridax would not have been acheived, as his essence would have been dissolved or whatever.

[unknown456]

I think I'm getting a little off topic but.... what about the opposite of this theory? What if the Makuta were meant to delay Mata Nui if he arrived to early to Spherus Magna. This goes on the idea that Mata Nui HAD to wait 100,000 years or longer before he could reform Spherus Magna (for whatever reason that may be, probably geological-ish stuff). Also, I believe I saw somewhere on BS01 that Mata Nui did have to wait 100,000 years (I am currently looking for this quote,if it still exists). Anyways back to my theory. Because Mata Nui was ending his mission to early, some trigger implanted by the G.B.'s caused the makuta to turn into the gaseous antidermis, revolt, Teridax causing Mata Nui to crash on Aqua Magna, and having to wait another 1,000 years to reform Spherus Magna. However this also implies that the G.B.'s knew that the makuta would revolt and thus other counter measures (such as the Golden Armor) were placed (or mabe it's already common knowledge that the G.B.'s knew that the makuta would revolt, and I'm just slow). However , I'm probably just over thinking all this and it's just a coincidence of some kind. Either way, feel free to poke holes in this thought.