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Alternate Realities: Does it mean every fanfic is canon as a different


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#41 Offline The Doctor U

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Posted Apr 16 2014 - 10:16 AM

First of all Greg's way to bring alternate realities into the story were great and horrible idea. The Kingdom and Dark Mirror were nice, but when Makuta The White and Takanuva the Dark are battling against each other whit Mjölnirs, you know that those realities doesn't make any sense. So I like to pretend that in my headcanon alternate realities haven't affected the main Bionicle story and there have been other cuts from reality where GregF made his fanfics about golden skakdiBowser lizardking and where Red Star is giant external hard drive. I think that people should forget about strict canon and made their own headcanons like in Doctor Who, where there is so much material that nobody can ever know it all and time travel changes everything all the time.


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#42 Online Quisoves Pugnat

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Posted Apr 16 2014 - 05:51 PM

The Kingdom and Dark Mirror were nice, but when Makuta The White and Takanuva the Dark are battling against each other whit Mjölnirs, you know that those realities doesn't make any sense.

Exactly why do a Terridax who never became evil and a Takanuva drained of his light fighting not make sense? Strangeness is different from nonesensicality.


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#43 Offline Pomegranate

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Posted Apr 16 2014 - 05:57 PM

I'm certain the whole thing about any fanfic being its own canon alternate universe only applies to reasonable ones. If it makes sense, if it's possible, if it's not completely nonsensical or implausible, why can't it be an alternate universe? Some of the worlds that Takanuva visited were stranger than a lot of fics I've read.


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#44 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 04:56 AM

 

The Kingdom and Dark Mirror were nice, but when Makuta The White and Takanuva the Dark are battling against each other whit Mjölnirs, you know that those realities doesn't make any sense.

Exactly why do a Terridax who never became evil and a Takanuva drained of his light fighting not make sense? Strangeness is different from nonesensicality.

 

I think the problem its just a stupid idea to begin with that doesn't actually add anything.


Edited by SarracenianKaijin, Apr 17 2014 - 04:57 AM.

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#45 Offline The Doctor U

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 05:06 AM

 

The Kingdom and Dark Mirror were nice, but when Makuta The White and Takanuva the Dark are battling against each other whit Mjölnirs, you know that those realities doesn't make any sense.

Exactly why do a Terridax who never became evil and a Takanuva drained of his light fighting not make sense? Strangeness is different from nonesensicality.

 

My point was that Greg Farshtey didn't plan to use those in the story. He has said that he didn't plan ahead of those side stories and they were the canon that is now theorised here. So Greg F is the false prophet of the BIONICLE story and Christian F is the real prophet whose ideas did make sense and were cool. Greg has damaged the Bionicle story with his alternate realities because they affected too much to the main story.


Edited by bonesiii, Apr 18 2014 - 12:25 AM.
This post seems to be getting borderline too religious, although as it's only an analogy I have left it. Please avoid that in the future, however. Also, remember your personal tastes are subjective. -bones

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#46 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 09:25 AM

I thought that idea/battle was cool, actually. It was the opposite of the kolhii match at the end of MoL, and provides an unexpected commentary on the nature of the two characters. 

 

Light Takanuva: "I am here to beat you!"

 

Dark Makuta: "Um, kolhii match?" I have to fake my defeat here somehow. *wince* The Plan must go forth...

 

----

Dark Takanuva: "I am here because, um, Teridax sent me and I am eeeviiil!. Guess this means I get to kill you now. 

 

Light Makuta: *WARHAMMER SMASH*


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#47 Offline Pomegranate

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 10:29 AM

 

 

The Kingdom and Dark Mirror were nice, but when Makuta The White and Takanuva the Dark are battling against each other whit Mjölnirs, you know that those realities doesn't make any sense.

Exactly why do a Terridax who never became evil and a Takanuva drained of his light fighting not make sense? Strangeness is different from nonesensicality.

 

My point was that Greg Farshtey didn't plan to use those in the story. He has said that he didn't plan ahead of those side stories and they were the canon that is now theorised here. So Greg F is the false prophet of the BIONICLE story and Christian F is the real prophet whose ideas did make sense and were cool. Greg has damaged the Bionicle story with his alternate realities because they affected too much to the main story.

 

I don't really consider serials and a few super watered down childrens' chapter books to be "the main story". As far as the books and comics were concerned, a portal opened up and Takanuva popped out to help in Karda Nui, and Brutaka fast-traveled a bunch. I think you're really exaggerating the extent to which Greg "ruined" the story. Personally, I didn't mind at all and enjoyed those kinds of plots (I always love What-If worlds and totally alien worlds, like in various Mirror and universe-hopping episodes throughout the Star Trek franchise). As for this "false prophet" nonsense, I just... huh? Please explain what you mean 'cause you've lost me there :P 

I get what you're saying about that story not being planned in advance so maybe it wasn't up to your standards, but I don't see how its inclusion suddenly ruins Bionicle so much that it negates your positive reception of the other alternate worlds and pretty much everything else Greg ever wrote. Just seems like an overreaction to me  :confused: 

So I like to pretend that in my headcanon alternate realities haven't affected the main Bionicle story and there have been other cuts from reality where GregF made his fanfics about golden skakdiBowser lizardking and where Red Star is giant external hard drive. I think that people should forget about strict canon and made their own headcanons like in Doctor Who, where there is so much material that nobody can ever know it all and time travel changes everything all the time.


Before I talk waaayyy too much, I'm just gonna get out of the way that even though time travel changes events in Doctor Who canon, the fact that they did happen originally is still canon and is usually still important to the plot. Also you'd be surprised but there are plenty of folks out there who really know it all, it isn't that hard, you just gotta watch like 30 seasons of tv and keep up with the audio dramas and books and comics and stuff, which I think is a lot more feasible for the older folks who have had more lifetime to work with to do that but it ain't my fault some people are born earlier than others :P Anywho...

I'm not really big on headcanon in general, especially when it's shoved in others' faces. Writers intend their stories to be interpreted in a certain way, and you can't really claim to like the same story as everyone else when you say "Oh, except in my head this this and this are different." It just seems stubborn to me, especially with the Doctor Who example you gave. In my experience, Doctor Who headcanons are less about "oh I can't keep up with the last 50 years/9 years of content" and more about "I really liked this character so I'm going to pretend key plot elements didn't happen and that personalities are different than how they're portrayed in the show". Not that it's particularly relevant, but I'm just saying that it's way more about personal preference and refusal to accept what's actually happening in the story than making things up to fill in gaps in a story that has too much for you to remember. It's cool to enjoy a story in your own way, and sharing your ideas, which is why I think that as long as it makes sense anyone's fanfiction deserves to be it's own canon alternate universe, but insisting that everyone should ignore canon and just make up their own version of events as they see fit? I think it's insulting to the original work; it's not fanfiction or homage or parody or reimagining, it's revision. And seeing as all fanfics are apparently canon, isn't that a paradox? Even if the original does suck, who gives you the right to decide that the author's right to say their material is canon is invalid? It ain't your story, ya know? It's just about respect

There's a big difference between "I hate the Star Wars prequels because of Jar Jar Binks and stuff, my fanfiction in which I rewrote those films is way better" and "I'm ignoring years and years of work and millions of dollars and countless blissfully naive children's joy because it makes me feel better about the original films and the quality of the franchise as a whole", 'cause whatever that's your point of view and more power to ya, and then there's "I'm pretending years and years of work and millions of dollars and countless blissfully naive children's joy never happened because it makes me feel better but I also have to share this point of view and insist it's the right one" which is really arrogant and rude. I know the Prequel Trilogy was terrible, but I love it anyways, but when I make that statement and people answer (unironically of course) with, "I don't know what you're talking about, what Trilogy?" it's really just kinda rude. They're insulting my tastes (yeah yeah yeah boo hoo my feelings, I know), and the creators, how hard is it to say, "Nah I think it sucks." Saying something never happened is much worse than saying something is stupid. It sounds to me that that's how you're treating the whole thing with the Red Star and the Alternate Universes and all that jazz, and while it's fine to disagree with how they were handled or their inclusion in general, they are canon and can't be totally erased, and if you do choose to ignore them completely, try to keep in mind that others are still gonna talk about them or even like them, especially in the Storyline&Theories subforum on a Bionicle site, where piping in with your headcanon doesn't really contribute much, and following it up with saying that the majority of the written canon is terribly done isn't gonna do anything but rile people up.

Just my two cents? Sorry 'bout the wall o' text, sometimes I really over explain and don't have time to revise. I don't have any malice towards you and your headcanon, I promise :P

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#48 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 11:57 AM

I'm just here to interject that seems a little pointless endeavor to still cling on Bionicle canon, when there is no more new Bionicle canon.

 

Also the fact that the canon we are defending is simply rubbish anyway, but that's neither here nor there

 

http://tinyurl.com/mtgjjxp


Edited by SarracenianKaijin, Apr 22 2014 - 02:40 AM.
Inappropriate link removed. And please, again, avoid treating your personal tastes as better than others. To those with other tastes, especially the majority of the fanbase, much you deem rubbish was actually better; that's why they did it. :) -bones

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#49 Offline Katuko

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 02:07 PM

I'm just here to interject that seems a little pointless endeavor to still cling on Bionicle canon, when there is no more new Bionicle canon.

Well, the story that lasted from 2001-2010 is essentially what there is of BIONICLE. To ignore it would be to essentially invent a new series.

Also the fact that the canon we are defending is simply rubbish anyway, but that's neither here nor there.

I can agree with that. A lot of the BIONICLE story was actually pretty 'meh', depending on who you ask. As such we have a bunch of head-canon etc., but although we must press on with fan-created media it does not invalidate what is official, established canon. We are of course free to ignore the parts we don't like in our fan works, but if everyone starts working with pure head-canon at all times then the Storyline & Theories forum would simply lose most of its meaning.

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#50 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 02:33 PM

 

I can agree with that. A lot of the BIONICLE story was actually pretty 'meh', depending on who you ask. As such we have a bunch of head-canon etc., but although we must press on with fan-created media it does not invalidate what is official, established canon. We are of course free to ignore the parts we don't like in our fan works, but if everyone starts working with pure head-canon at all times then the Storyline & Theories forum would simply lose most of its meaning.

 

Not really, there's a difference between headcanon, which is making up new information, and alternative reading, which offers a new interesting perspective and interpretation for pre-existing stuff.

 

After all, look at the Elder Scrolls Lore threads in bethsoft forums or reddit, or the Imperial Library. They work pretty well.

 

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 18 2014 - 08:22 AM.
All we were saying was that some of your alternate reading did contradict the established canon, and pointing out where and why. That doesn't mean yours is worse. -bones

 

Contradict your own canon you mean? ;) :P


Edited by SarracenianKaijin, Apr 22 2014 - 02:42 AM.
All we were saying was that some of your alternate reading did contradict the established canon, and pointing out where and why. That doesn't mean yours is worse. -bones

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#51 Online Chro

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 05:12 PM

I'm just here to interject that seems a little pointless endeavor to still cling on Bionicle canon, when there is no more new Bionicle canon.

Does that really make sense?
"Bionicle has ended, disregard all Bionicle content because no new content will appear!"

 

Light Takanuva: "I am here to beat you!"

 

Dark Makuta: "Um, kolhii match?" I have to fake my defeat here somehow. *wince* The Plan must go forth...

 

----

Dark Takanuva: "I am here because, um, Teridax sent me and I am eeeviiil!. Guess this means I get to kill you now. 

 

Light Makuta: *WARHAMMER SMASH*

Ahaha, yes.


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#52 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 06:10 PM

 

I'm just here to interject that seems a little pointless endeavor to still cling on Bionicle canon, when there is no more new Bionicle canon.

Does that really make sense?
"Bionicle has ended, disregard all Bionicle content because no new content will appear!"

 

What I mean its pointless to deny all other forms of interpretation other than the supposed "evidence-based objective truths" that are sterile and devoid of any kind creative spark.


Edited by bonesiii, Apr 18 2014 - 12:21 AM.
Nobody is denying other interpretations, and we allow some mentioning of headcanoning, etc. here. But extended details of non-canon things simply belong elsewhere, not S&T. :) Being clear about what is canon can also help change it in fanfics. -bones

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#53 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 06:13 PM

 

 

I'm just here to interject that seems a little pointless endeavor to still cling on Bionicle canon, when there is no more new Bionicle canon.

Does that really make sense?
"Bionicle has ended, disregard all Bionicle content because no new content will appear!"

 

What I mean its pointless to deny all other forms of interpretation other than the supposed "evidence-based objective truths" that are sterile and devoid of any kind creative spark.

 

[E]vidence-based-objective truth is [...] actually one of the most creative things in the known universe.  


Edited by bonesiii, Apr 18 2014 - 12:18 AM.
Pardon for the minor edit, but the original wording of this may have come across as confrontational. -bones

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#54 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 06:19 PM

Maybe to [others]


Edited by bonesiii, Apr 18 2014 - 12:16 AM.
Religious discussion is not allowed, sorry. Also, this is again off-topic. -bones

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#55 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 17 2014 - 09:48 PM

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm referring to the large number of interesting discussions in this forum centered around all the "sterile evidence-based-objective-truth" you decry as dull and uninteresting. :P


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#56 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 12:34 AM

I've just had to edit a number of posts here that were walking and sometimes crossing the line a bit. Probably everybody could do with a quick refresher course in basic BZP rules:

http://www.bzpower.c...les-guidelines/

It would be wise for everybody to have a look back over the posts on this page for my edit notes clarifying some of the rules. :)

This post is also to issue a warning -- please stay on-topic, folks. It's okay to discuss preferences related to the subject at hand, but it's also best if every new post actually adds to that discussion rather than saying something about other people or real-world issues in general. I did only see one post that was obviously completely off-topic, though, this time. :)

(Incidentally, I would link to S&T rules on this, but unfortunately they're still a bit out of date and still have the format glitch, my bad on that. However, BZP-wide rules are up-to-date, to my knowledge, and we expect them to be followed.)


Edited by bonesiii, Apr 18 2014 - 12:53 AM.

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#57 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 10:28 AM

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm referring to the large number of interesting discussions in this forum centered around all the "sterile evidence-based-objective-truth" you decry as dull and uninteresting. :P

That's because they are mostly dull and uninteresting.


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#58 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 11:38 AM

In your personal tastes, Sar -- again, don't make the mistake of assuming everybody else shares them or that yours are better. Clearly since the vast majority of people do enjoy talking about the things you're complaining about in S&T, your taste on this is to some extent in the minority. :) Although there are probably some bits of it that are more common.

 

Anywho... back to alternate reality discussion, please. :P (You might want to consider making a topic directly about what you keep going off-topic to talk about, BTW.)


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#59 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 12:42 PM

In your personal tastes, Sar -- again, don't make the mistake of assuming everybody else shares them

 

That is indeed what "in my personal tastes", and I have full right to express it. ;)

 

Or is that too "off-topic"? :P :P


Edited by bonesiii, Apr 18 2014 - 09:30 PM.
You've been going quite a ways beyond expressing it; you've been belittling others for not sharing it, at least as you've worded things. You also don't seem willing to consider you've made mistakes. Please reconsider this approach. :)

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#60 Online One-Eyed Construct

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 02:01 PM

I would quote Fisher's "WARHAMMER SMASH", but Surface isn't letting me.

 

@Sar: it's off topic in the sense that it doesn't relate directly to the thread topic. It's like if we were talking about the health benefits of fruit and somebody started going off on a tangent of how bananas taste bad. Still talking about fruit, but the wrong element of fruit.

 

Main topic: ... does it actually matter whether or not if every fanfic is a canon alternate universe? Not to diss the OP, but why is thus so significant?


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#61 Offline ALVIS

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 03:08 PM

As far as I can tell, it's just an interesting thought. True, there's not much discussion to be made out of it, which is why it's so easy for a thread like this to veer off-topic.

 

I guess we could talk about the ramifications of this policy on our fanfics and forum discussions, but it'd be a relatively short conversation.


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#62 Offline SarracenianKaijin

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 06:49 PM

 

@Sar: it's off topic in the sense that it doesn't relate directly to the thread topic. It's like if we were talking about the health benefits of fruit and somebody started going off on a tangent of how bananas taste bad. Still talking about fruit, but the wrong element of fruit.

Except if the discussion ends up simply chewing out the same conclusion over and over, and in this case not even an interesting question to begin with, one might want to move the conversation elsewhere.

 

Besides, that is also an extreme example that I doubt would become a dominant subject in that sort of discussion.


Edited by SarracenianKaijin, Apr 18 2014 - 06:50 PM.

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#63 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 18 2014 - 09:32 PM

Except if the discussion ends up simply chewing out the same conclusion over and over, and in this case not even an interesting question to begin with, one might want to move the conversation elsewhere.

I agree with this, but you've been taking it in more of a completely different direction. That's what new topics are for. :)


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#64 Offline Aho

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Posted Apr 19 2014 - 01:54 AM

@Sar: You definitely have some interesting opinions bro, and there are several things you've brought up that are worth discussing to a certain degree. Would you mind opening a topic devoted to some questions you've brought up? As long as discussion doesn't cross any BZPower rules, it could be an educational experience. :)

-Aho

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