Bzp Library Discussion Topic

fishers64 · May 23, 2012

I find script useful for when an author needs to draw attention to the dialogue above all else, and put less emphasis on the action (what the characters are doing). This is often true in the Comedies forum, but the War For BZPower (by Jinkleminister) series in Short Stories uses script, and it doesn't really suffer for that stylistic detail.The only thing I wrote in script was Spinning Doctor Drake, and it was for the reasons I described above. It was a stylistic choice that worked, and I may use it again if need be, but probably only when writing comedies.

Edited May 23, 2012 by fishers64

**Velox** · May 27, 2012

I much prefer prose. I can definitely enjoy and appreciate script, but only if it's used in its proper way -- for a play or movie script. I detest the way script is used in the Comedies forum, but that's probably just the grammar/English freak in me.

2.1k · June 16, 2012

Script was good enough for Shakespeare, so there's that. I've never written in it, but it has some benefits. You lose a lot of the narrator elements, and that is replaced with practical imagery. And characters thoughts are a lot more difficult to put in.- 55555

**Aderia** · June 16, 2012

Going off of this whole script vs. prose thing, what makes script so much more popular in the Comedy forum? Is there a certain reason that has to do with the humorous nature of the writing, or is it just that the different authors have different writing styles? Something else entirely?

**Voltex** · June 16, 2012

Going off of this whole script vs. prose thing, what makes script so much more popular in the Comedy forum? Is there a certain reason that has to do with the humorous nature of the writing, or is it just that the different authors have different writing styles? Something else entirely?

As others have stated before, script is far easier to use than prose for slapstick and dialogue- I'm learning this even now with comedies of both types running. Often the dialogue of characters and their reactions to it are what's funny, not what's happening, and it's easier to show those humourous reactions with a script, because you don't have all that excess discription getting in the way like in a prose comedy. As 55555 said, you do lose several elements; I generally find it easier to have script characters wear their emotions on their sleeves, as you can't show thoughts effectively within a script, and putting in too much description disrupts the flow. Script is really about the characters and for the characters 100%, hence making it a good fit for Comedies.Short Stories and Epics, by contrast, are more serious in tone, and for that to work you need to flesh out the story more; that's where prose comes in and why it's more useful in those forums.That said Velox... your statement lit the urge within me to write millions of script comedies and short stories.

-ibrow

IronyMan · June 16, 2012

...Back to the original subject of the topic:What ideas do you like to portray in your BIONICLE stories?Wow. I haven't written anything for BIONICLE in a looong time, and this jogs so many memories.Anyway, my stories, such as they were, were mostly attempts at taking new looks at the MU (never Bara Magna, never). I tried to emphasize the humanity of the characters, and I say "tried" because I never really succeeded.What's your favorite genre to write about?What I wrote back in the day was very sci-fi action-y, with lots of spaceships and explosions. I'm too young to have known BIONICLE in 2001, when it was more fantastical; I entered the story in 2006, when there were cities and guns (and later, flying machines), so that's what I absorbed. If I wrote a fanfic now, though, I'd say it would be more of a drama.Why do you post stories?I don't, or haven't, yet; all this nostalgia I've gotten since joining the board may compel me to write a short piece or two.When do you find time to read other entries?I joined six hours ago. Gimme a break.Do you enjoy epics or short stories more, and which do you enjoy writing for overall?When I was really into writing fanfic, I wrote almost exclusively epics, mainly because I have a tendency to overly complicate everything I'm involved in, so almost all my short story outlines evolved into novellas or novels, few of which I actually completed.Don't really have answers to all the other questions.

fishers64 · June 17, 2012

Going off of this whole script vs. prose thing, what makes script so much more popular in the Comedy forum? Is there a certain reason that has to do with the humorous nature of the writing, or is it just that the different authors have different writing styles? Something else entirely?

What ibrow said; also, it's harder to make what happens funny than it is to make the dialogue funny. In serious works, you want a lot of attention on what happens, not on what's being said, and oftentimes I have characters alone in a scene and need to put their thoughts in. And maybe this is just a writing style thing, but I generally want characters in a serious story to change, but with a comedy I don't care about that as much - I'm focused less on character development than the absurdity of the situation the entire group is in and their dialogue in reaction to it. Thus, script fits more IMO.

**Velox** · June 17, 2012

That said Velox... your statement lit the urge within me to write millions of script comedies and short stories. -ibrow

Go ahead. =P I have nothing against script itself. In fact, I like script -- there are many, many great playwrightes who have used script, such as Shakespeare as John mentioned, or Sophocles, Oscar Wilde, Tennessee Williams, Thornton Wilder, and so many more. What I don't like is when people distort script by filling it with emoticons and improper grammar. But that's just my opinion. I used to write the same type of comedy I now dislike (for a long time, too, and for some odd reason it was really popular. But then again I liked that style back then, too), and I regret that. Not because I wrote comedies, but because I distorted script. I understand the appeal to writing that way -- it's "easier," perhaps even funnier to fill them with emoticons and bad grammar, partially because of internet memes which can only be done in that style.I really have to disagree with you, though, when you say that script is about the characters and for the characters 100%. It's about the dialogue of characters and interaction between characters, yes, but it is much, much harder to get any character depth with script. It's possible, sure, but harder and much more rare. I think the appeal for script for comedies is simply the fact that it's easier to incorporate slapstick humor into it with the use of emoticons and the way characters say things. And I dislike that because I love characterization which just isn't found in most comedies on BZP. I get that that's not the point of comedies -- they're meant to be funny, and that's it -- but that's not why I want to read things. I like comedy in literature, sure -- that's why the Dresden Files, by Jim Butcher, are some of my favorite books, because the main character Harry Dresden has a very funny way of thinking and often does/says extremely funny things, not to mention the character Bob which literally had me laughing out loud -- but if I want a lot of slapstick humor I'm going to go watch a comedy movie. Because when I read I want so much more than a laugh -- I want characterization, I want a good plot, I want substance. And I just don't get that with the comedies here. But again, that's just my opinion and how I feel -- I'm not bashing anyone for liking it for thinking that way. I used to, too, after all.I also feel as if people might use script as an excuse. Yes, it's easier. Yes, it may even be funnier (if you consider slapstick better than other types of humor). But I think it would be so much better if people tried to get that same level of humor (again, maybe not the same type of humor, but still just as funny) by doing things that are more difficult -- that is, writing in not even necessarily prose, but actual, real script. That is, without a bunch of emoticons and poor grammar (and no, I'm not saying every comedy is like that -- I haven't read a comedy in a long time here, but back when I was writing and reading them, that's pretty much what most of them were with a few exceptions).So tl;dr: I like script. I don't like the way it is used in the comedies forum on BZPower. But hey, de gustibus non est disputantum -- or in other words, to each his own. I'm not going to say you're wrong for thinking differently, I'm just simply telling you how I feel.

And maybe this is just a writing style thing, but I generally want characters in a serious story to change, but with a comedy I don't care about that as much - I'm focused less on character development than the absurdity of the situation the entire group is in and their dialogue in reaction to it. Thus, script fits more IMO.

And that's exactly why I don't like that style -- I'm not trying to bash anyone here, I'm just explaining why I don't like it. Tying in to what I said above, comedies on BZP are less focused on character development, characterization at all, and other important, key factors that are, to me, enjoyable when reading literature. I think writers should be focused on those things when writing, whether comedy or not. But that may just be me.

fishers64 · June 17, 2012

Respectfully, I've seen a number of comedies in the forum lately that do not suffer from emoticons and poor grammar, and those include script comedies. Still, I think perhaps it may behoove a writer to try to flesh out a comedic work in prose or script - but I remember from my previous attempt at it that it was difficult. You have inspired me to take a further look into that, and for that I thank you.

Cederak · June 17, 2012

I see exactly where Velox is coming from on this. My time in comedies lasted a total of one week back in 2006. And I've never looked back mostly because I became disillusioned with the idea of script after my brief time there. On the occasions I have chosen to poke my head in on what the comedy writers are doing, I can see that the only thing that's changed in six years is that they have a new handful of characters to work with. The rampancy of emoticons and slapstick humor fit for seven years olds doesn't land for many audiences and it's easy to see why.Script in itself is not the problem, rather, the problem is connected to the execution of script by writers that either are not up to the challenge of articulating the details of scenery and characters or are merely not challenging themselves. At one time in history, all stories were comedies or tragedies. If the protagonist lives, comedy. If not, tragedy. For BZPower, all Comedies seems to invite is, "If you don't think you're up to writing a legitimate piece of work and you know how to click smiley faces and place them in a post, come on in." That is not comedy, that is a mockery of humor and script alike.Perhaps if Comedies were to be eliminated, we could eliminate the presentation of such poor writing. If people feel pushed to strive for better, they will. As products of an environment that demands better, I believe the quality of their work will improve. I am not asking for the end of script here on BZPower, only the end of all the less-than-mediocre drivel thrown in a blender with more emoticons and memes than necessary. If the execution of the BZPower comedy improves, so too will its reputation among many writers who choose to frequent only Epics and Short Stories. And why do those writers not venture into Comedies? Because Comedies is not a place to find a good joke for many. It is the joke, something to be laughed at, not with. I cannot be the first person to consider calling its validity into question, but who is to blame? I think I have an answer.This is a matter of individual responsibility. If the comedy writers could step back, really examine their work and ask, "Is this my best? Could I do better? Could my delivery of humor be something superior, even if I continue to use script but abandon the emoticons and childish humor?" don't you think many would respond with a "yes"? BZPower exists within the constraints of appealing to a certain audience, and there are certain themes that, though funny for some, are simply off limits on the forums. And yet we have this wide range of wit to be explored, this untapped reservoir that could very well start a revolution among the Comedies forums.It all starts with addressing that there is a problem. Once more, that problem stems from poor implementation of writing and, moreover, humor. If you can present a comedy of a caliber that can stand eye to eye with some of the best epics and short stories on BZPower, whether it is full of emoticons and slapstick humor, whether it is script or prose, or even manages to employ perfect grammar throughout, I invite you to write that story. Because the fact of the matter is that comedy is not a lower form of writing, it is not a lower form of entertainment or artistry - it is merely executed as such far too often.-Ced

2.1k · June 17, 2012

Son of a gun Ced, now I want to write a comedy.- 55555

Taipu1 · June 17, 2012

I have to say prose offers new forms of comedy, but at the same time it looks more serious and imposing, and perhaps puts people off. I like both equally, I've written in both forms. Prose comedies, I would say are for those who care more about having a plotline. A lot of comedies are in the form of chat shows, or episodes with little continuity between the two. These lend themselves more to script than comedy.

Son of a gun Ced, now I want to write a comedy.- 55555

I'll agree with that, it's a screaming challenge to my inner-author. But Script or Prose

**GSR** · June 17, 2012

Well, Velox and Cederak just summed up my issue with the Comedies forum rather spectacularly. Well said.I do have the beginnings of a prose-based comedy sitting around (unrelated to the Olympics) that I've been meaning to get back to, but it's almost hard to categorize with BZP's current system - is it a full-fledged comedy, or a short story written in a humorous tone?

**Hahli Husky** · June 17, 2012

I do have the beginnings of a prose-based comedy sitting around (unrelated to the Olympics) that I've been meaning to get back to, but it's almost hard to categorize with BZP's current system - is it a full-fledged comedy, or a short story written in a humorous tone?

This has always been an issue. XP Comedies tend to have more laughs and aren't very serious at all, while short stories might have some humor but are overall more serious. What people usually do is post it in Short Stories if they don't feel it has enough laugh moments, and if most members find it extremely funny, it can be moved to Comedies. It's been a narrow line, yeah, especially over the past few years, since most comedies tend to be oddball script-style crazy fests. But I remember when there were a lot of prose comedies that had a lot of laugh moments but were more highbrow, if you will.

**Voltex** · June 20, 2012

Well, Velox and Cederak just summed up my issue with the Comedies forum rather spectacularly. Well said.I do have the beginnings of a prose-based comedy sitting around (unrelated to the Olympics) that I've been meaning to get back to, but it's almost hard to categorize with BZP's current system - is it a full-fledged comedy, or a short story written in a humorous tone?

First off, I'm just going to say that GSR is the only one I'm quoting simply because Cederak and Velox's posts are WAY too big to quote. xDThat said, Cederak & Velox (and, I guess, GSR, since you agree with them), I'm going to respectfully disagree (in particular , this next bit differs with Cederak). I do take a small bit of offense, because I believe that we in Comedies do take what we're doing seriously, and what you've described isn't true at all anymore- if it is, you're STILL reading the wrong comedies. I hate bragging about my skills, but honestly, one glance at my comedy How to Be a Hero should be enough to show that we don't abuse emoticons. My comedy not satisfactory? Go read Spinning Doctor Drake, a comedic achievment. If that's still not to your fancy, read Aftermath 2. Those are the three best script comedies on the site at the moment that are consistently updated (minus Doctor Drake, which ended recently). Now, at the same time, my prose comedy Tahu vs. Tahu has been running since late December of 2010 (barring six months of no updates during the downtime last year). Would you like to know how often I update it now? When I started, I finished Season 1, which was about 13 chapters long in total, in a month. Today the readers are lucky if they see two chapters posted in one month. Why?Because I do step back, and I do ask myself if it's funny enough. When finishing Season 10 I ditched the original finale for a better, more focused, and funnier one. In Season 2 I did the same thing with Chapter 7. In Season 3 I did it to Chapter 12, and ultimately decided against it. Now, with Season 4, I have just recently in the past few days decided against using Chapter 4. So please, don't assume things. And if you do believe Comedies is so horrible, eliminating it and merging it with Epics and Short Stories is going to clog up those forums of the "elite", and you'll then be forced to watch them each day. It's often said that comedy is one of the hardest genres to pull off- and in my opinion, it is. It's difficult to come up with fresh, new jokes every chapter in a comedy over a year old- there are reasons why everyone believes that Red vs. Blue Season 1 and 2 are the best, or why the first Shrek film is the best. So keep that in mind, too. In addition, have you ever wondered why us writers from Comedies rarely (if ever) stray into Short Stories and Epics? I've posted a few short stories, and some have garnered much attention (such as Avalanche and The Trial and Execution of Makuta Teridax), but others don't receive a single reply (such as What Lurks Below). I've posted a few Epics, and none of them have received any replies at all. None. Every author knows how it feels when not a single person will comment on your work, even if it's just to point out several grammatical errors and the like and say "better luck next time". I got a reply very similar to that from Snoopy82 on a short story I posted in November- the only comment my story received. And I was ecstatic, because although all he really said was "it's too short", at least it was something to help me further in my writing. The zilch replies average in Epics and Short Stories really turns me off, and I'm sure it turns off other authors from Comedies too, because if you're not the elite there, if you're not the highest of the highest, then you're not worth anything. At least in Comedies, even if it's your first time writing, you're bound to get a reply or two explaining what you might've done wrong and how you can make it better next time.It's because of that feel in Comedies that I'm still on this site today, three and a half years after joining. Had I not gotten those replies in the beginning, I would've never stuck around to still be receiving replies now. NOW, I shall move onto Velox.First, I must agree- script comedies can be far easier to write, and I will admit it's easy to fall into traps and snares with them (those being emoticons and the like). As for the characters thing, I'm not sure I worded that well. While what you said is right, I think characters can be developed in script easily. For instance, if I wrote a script comedy where Tahu and Gali were in love, and Tahu was all hotheaded, but then Gali died tragically, would it not be considered character development if I had Tahu moping and moaning for several chapters afterward, albeit in a humourous way? As for your comment about actual script - how would you define it to be a "real" script, minus without emoticons? Because by that definition alone, I know that my comedies and the ones I read that are script would be considered "real" script. Like you said though, to each his own. If the script comedies BZP has right now aren't what you're looking for in a comedy, that's fine- and I know I'll be taking a look at my own script comedies to see where, by your comments on character development, they may be faulty. And @Ironyman...

...Back to the original subject of the topic:

I am tooootally on topic right now, if you mean to say I'm not.

-ibrow

**Aderia** · June 20, 2012

@iBrow: Thank you, I concur that we are on topic. Also, I understand where you're coming from, about the lack of reviews. Its a real sucker punch to the ego, isn't it? But that's what the SSCC and ECC are there for. I do remember Avalanche, for the record. I'm not sure if I ever dropped a review, but the fact that I remember it has gotta count for something, right? Also, I think whether or not you think a Comedy is successful, or what makes one good, is a bit weird, since we all have different senses of humor, just thought I'd say.

**Voltex** · June 20, 2012

@iBrow: Thank you, I concur that we are on topic. Also, I understand where you're coming from, about the lack of reviews. Its a real sucker punch to the ego, isn't it? But that's what the SSCC and ECC are there for. I do remember Avalanche, for the record. I'm not sure if I ever dropped a review, but the fact that I remember it has gotta count for something, right?Also, I think whether or not you think a Comedy is successful, or what makes one good, is a bit weird, since we all have different senses of humor, just thought I'd say.

There is that. But that's stil no reason to outright say that Comedies overall is so awful that it should be removed. But I digress from what I was trying to say. xDI suppose it does count, though it was one that many people read, so then again... =P I generally don't count any of the critic clubs (not even the CCC, which I'm the head of), since they only review on request, and thus the reviewer usually hasn't gone out of their way to post beforehand. A long, complimentary review is always nice to get from the clubs -heck, any long review, to be honest- but I still don't count it fully as the author asked for it. -ibrow

**Aderia** · June 20, 2012

There is that. But that's stil no reason to outright say that Comedies overall is so awful that it should be removed. But I digress from what I was trying to say. xDI suppose it does count, though it was one that many people read, so then again... =P I generally don't count any of the critic clubs (not even the CCC, which I'm the head of), since they only review on request, and thus the reviewer usually hasn't gone out of their way to post beforehand. A long, complimentary review is always nice to get from the clubs -heck, any long review, to be honest- but I still don't count it fully as the author asked for it. -ibrow

Well, the way I see it, the author is asking for a review just by publishing his/her story, so I see nothing that should 'not count fully' in a review from a hard working member of a Critic's Club. *feels unappreciated*. If anything, IMO, a critic club review should count more, just because so many of the critics are dedicated and thorough with their work. But I do see where you're coming from, having to request for a review can be disheartening for lack of other reveiws (I've been there), but personally, taking the time to request a reveiw from a Club shows me that the author is looking to improve as best as he/she can, just because the reviews are so well rounded. Does that make any sense?

Cederak · June 20, 2012

@iBrow: Thank you, I concur that we are on topic. Also, I understand where you're coming from, about the lack of reviews. Its a real sucker punch to the ego, isn't it? But that's what the SSCC and ECC are there for. I do remember Avalanche, for the record. I'm not sure if I ever dropped a review, but the fact that I remember it has gotta count for something, right?Also, I think whether or not you think a Comedy is successful, or what makes one good, is a bit weird, since we all have different senses of humor, just thought I'd say.
There is that. But that's stil no reason to outright say that Comedies overall is so awful that it should be removed. But I digress from what I was trying to say. xDI suppose it does count, though it was one that many people read, so then again... =P I generally don't count any of the critic clubs (not even the CCC, which I'm the head of), since they only review on request, and thus the reviewer usually hasn't gone out of their way to post beforehand. A long, complimentary review is always nice to get from the clubs -heck, any long review, to be honest- but I still don't count it fully as the author asked for it. -ibrow

Suppose I won't quote your huge post either, as you had quite a bit to say. :PI'm still reading the wrong comedies? After so many glances for quality work, I'm expected to believe that it's a huge stroke of bad luck that I keep running across all these comedies that match the characteristics I mentioned above? What are the chances that, despite the comedies you've mentioned, there just aren't that many comedies that deviate from the emoticon-heavy formula?I've actually seen all of the comedies you've mentioned there. I have read parts of them and skimmed parts. What intrigued me later on was how many pages of responses they received, only to find a majority of the posts were not even constructive. I'm not a fan of using all caps for humor though, it doesn't appeal to me. And as for the material of those comedies, I can't make an argument on that matter too strongly because I'm diving into pure opinion when I say I just didn't find them funny. Simple as that, they weren't funny to me. It's interesting that you should bring up Tahu vs. Tahu, however, because that may be one of the only comedies I've glanced at that I would consider, as I put it, "of a caliber that can stand eye to eye with some of the best epics and short stories on BZPower."I can't help that comedy, alongside every other genre, is subjective. And my belief in Comedies alongside the epics and short stories is quite the opposite. I don't want it removed because I find it awful, I want it removed so the strong comedy writers will flourish among their epic and short story counterpart. I will only be "forced to watch" what comedies can stand on their own two feet among short stories and epics. The rest will be buried in the mediocrity and worse. You claim that you can't get replies in epics and short stories, but I get the feeling your answer lurks in the quality of that work. I can count on one hand how many of my short stories have gotten zero replies. During my early days on BZPower, before I could even be considered close to "elite" I got my replies because people responded to my work. They liked what they saw well enough to comment on it. And from that work, from pushing myself through a few stories that got nothing, I kept working at my craft, enhancing my writing skills. And now that I'm at a point where I feel my writing is adequate, you want to feed me this paradox where, because my early work got reviews and commentary, it was because I was "the highest of the highest?" Those first stories of mine paled in comparison to the short story and epic writers I respected, the "elite" of their time. There are newer writers in both forums these days that get their reviews because the work is good, they don't have a name or an "elite" image to back the quality of what they do. But guess what? The writing is good because they are good.Not every attempt is bound to be a winner, not every story is bound to get replies. If I knew the formula to garner responses to my work, I'd use it. But I don't know. I do the best I can with what I've got, and people generally like what they see. While you mentioned that you take time to step back and make sure you're giving your readers only the best, that's only part of the question I originally asked. Don't you think many writers of comedies (not just you) would say they aren't giving their best?And comedy is no harder to pull off than any other genre. If a chapter of an epic doesn't have that spark to it, if the immersion or the momentum is just gone and it stays that way for a chapter or two or three, I'm out. And chances are, a lot of other people are out too at that point. Keep an epic going after two or three stories. It's near-impossible. But you're not setting a good precedent for other writers to follow. Your work didn't get reviews so you left? That sounds like you threw in the towel. We all have to take some negative criticism to improve, even if that means not getting replies, which may be some of the most negative criticism you can receive. Every piece of work I've written on BZPower that has never gotten a response, tells me I wasn't doing my best. And when I look at it honestly, I'm right.Lastly, whether you want to "count" critic club reviews or not has no bearing on how the criticism and tips, ideas, etc. are beneficial to helping the writers. If an official critic club review is all a writer gets in their topic/review topic, that can sometimes be enough impetus to keep writing, keeping trying, and produce something better down the road. As a fellow critic club leader, I'm sure you can at least appreciate that sentiment.-Ced Edited June 20, 2012 by Cederak

fishers64 · June 20, 2012

Cederak, I strongly disagree with you. A number of my works have recieved a scarce number of replies, and it is not because they are weak works. My two recent works, including one that your critics club reviewed, the ECC, were given high marks. I didn't receive a ton of replies.In contrast, and I hate to use this as an example - Sumiki's work Annas Mirabillias got a ton of replies. A critic came in and tore it up. The number of replies has nothing to do with the quality of the work. It has to do with the popularity of the member involved, and the exposure the work gets. I'm not complaining because my work hasn't been reviewed. It has. The Gunsmith by Zacax and the works of Vorex have all received more replies at a turn than even some of the best writers on here.If you don't find the Comedies forum funny, that's fine - I'll even admit to not liking pieces in there or chapters on occasion. But giving us a blanket statement of poor quality just because you don't like our sense of humor or whatever doesn't sit well with me.And if you haven't seen Epics or Short Stories with zero replies, you aren't looking hard enough. I see them all the time. But I don't just sit there waiting for them to ask for a critics club review. I review them. And in doing so, I have seen my fair share of stories with huge problems and stories that could challenge the "best" of BZPower. Because back when I was a new member with a story that was terrible, somebody gave me a chance. They wrote me a review. I'm still here, and my writing has improved much since. If I hadn't gotten those reviews, I would have left, like so many others. Look at the last page of the Short Stories forum. I don't even recognize some of the names, all with zero replies, all gone. And so I review as many as I can get to. I can tell you that a good, constructive reply helps even the poorest of writers out. It sure helped me.I did my best work on Spinning Doctor Drake, and put as much effort in as I did writing The Team or Fire, my epics. I didn't resort to bad writing in order to get a laugh. But that's one writer's opinion on the subject, and I don't expect everyone to like me or iBrow's works. But don't accuse of bad writing just because you don't like what we write. Please?

Edited June 20, 2012 by fishers64

Cederak · June 20, 2012

Cederak, I strongly disagree with you. A number of my works have recieved a scarce number of replies, and it is not because they are weak works. My two recent works, including one that your critics club reviewed, the ECC, were given high marks. I didn't receive a ton of replies.In contrast, and I hate to use this as an example - Sumiki's work Annas Mirabillias got a ton of replies. A critic came in and tore it up. The number of replies has nothing to do with the quality of the work. It has to do with the popularity of the member involved, and the exposure the work gets. I'm not complaining because my work hasn't been reviewed. It has. The Gunsmith by Zacax and the works of Vorex have all received more replies at a turn than even some of the best writers on here.If you don't find the Comedies forum funny, that's fine - I'll even admit to not liking pieces in there or chapters on occasion. But giving us a blanket statement of poor quality just because you don't like our sense of humor or whatever doesn't sit well with me.And if you haven't seen Epics or Short Stories with zero replies, you aren't looking hard enough. I see them all the time. But I don't just sit there waiting for them to ask for a critics club review. I review them. And in doing so, I have seen my fair share of stories with huge problems and stories that could challenge the "best" of BZPower. Because back when I was a new member with a story that was terrible, somebody gave me a chance. They wrote me a review. I'm still here, and my writing has improved much since. If I hadn't gotten those reviews, I would have left, like so many others. Look at the last page of the Short Stories forum. I don't even recognize some of the names, all with zero replies, all gone. And so I review as many as I can get to. I can tell you that a good, constructive reply helps even the poorest of writers out. It sure helped me.I did my best work on Spinning Doctor Drake, and put as much effort in as I did writing The Team or Fire, my epics. I didn't resort to bad writing in order to get a laugh. But that's one writer's opinion on the subject, and I don't expect everyone to like me or iBrow's works. But don't accuse of bad writing just because you don't like what we write. Please?

I wasn't making a point about receiving few reviews. I was talking only about work that is passed over without anything. There has to be a reason that a story is simply passed over without absolutely any interaction from members. Replies may not reflect quality, but when no one thinks a story is worth saying a word about, that seems to suggest something is wrong. I'm not going to fault some writers because they have a small but loyal and/or active fanbase and that gets them more reviews.I'm sorry, but it's just my opinion. If my opinion of what I do and don't find funny "doesn't sit well" with you, I can't help that.Trust me when I say I've seen my fair share of short stories and epics with zero replies. They're out there, I know. But if the "exposure" their work receives from word of mouth, sigs, etc. isn't enough, that also can't be helped. I try to make an effort of reading (or at least skimming) most everything that comes through epics and short stories, even if I don't feel I have time to leave a legitimate comment.If you're willing to go out of your way to review stuff that is untouched by others, I think that's great. You're providing a wonderful service to the library and it's writers that way. Still, defending comedy work as you have, I have a hard time agreeing with you. Good writing still needs a good plot, and there is my problem with comedies. Even if the writing can stand on its own, the comedy just doesn't land for me and the plot often feels hollow or forced. And that's not something that can be changed, it's merely an opinion.-Ced Edited June 20, 2012 by Cederak

**TNTOS** · June 20, 2012

Reading this discussion, it's made me wonder if I should rethink my current approach to my comedy trilogy, the Legend Trilogy. It's really all about parodying bad writing and being awesome, but I wonder if maybe I should think about putting as much effort into it as I put into my epics and short stories.Can' t really do it with The Legend Exploded 'cause it's already written, but maybe in The Legend Imploded I'll take a different approach. Time will tell, I suppose.I pretty much agree with Cederak that most comedies don't seem to have a lot of effort put into them (although to be fair I've seen a fair amount of epics and short stories with little effort put into them, too). On the other hand, though, it's a lot easier to get replies in the Comedies forum than it is in the Epics or Short Stories forum. I don't post my stories purely for replies and reviews, but I've noticed that I can post an epic, a short story, and a comedy in the same time period and the comedy is the only one of the three that is guaranteed to get at least one reply.Aside from that, don't have much to say except that this is a good discussion. More discussion is always good, IMO.-TNTOS-

fishers64 · June 20, 2012

May I suggest the greater number of Comedies reviews is due to the lower number of comedies in the forum, as compared to Epics which gets a lot of replies to a great quantity of works?

**Voltex** · June 20, 2012

May I suggest the greater number of Comedies reviews is due to the lower number of comedies in the forum, as compared to Epics which gets a lot of replies to a great quantity of works?

There is that, too, in regards to the "noob" view of Comedies that's been in place since 2007. The Downtime kind of killed all of the comedies and comedy writers that weren't really dedicated. Wiped out a lot of readers that I guess weren't so dedicated as well.-ibrow

**Velox** · June 20, 2012

I'm going to reply to almost everything because I feel like it. =P

I do take a small bit of offense, because I believe that we in Comedies do take what we're doing seriously, and what you've described isn't true at all anymore- if it is, you're STILL reading the wrong comedies. I hate bragging about my skills, but honestly, one glance at my comedy How to Be a Hero should be enough to show that we don't abuse emoticons. My comedy not satisfactory? Go read Spinning Doctor Drake, a comedic achievment. If that's still not to your fancy, read Aftermath 2. Those are the three best script comedies on the site at the moment that are consistently updated (minus Doctor Drake, which ended recently).

All right, I've just read parts of the latest chapters of all of those, and I've looked at them before, too. It doesn't change anything that I've said -- if anything it only makes me more convinced of my previous points. I'll give you that they were better than a lot I've seen -- what few emoticons they had at some times were, again, few. But they still had emoticons. And all three were filled with improper grammar and writing, whether it be in the grammar itself, the abusing of caps lock, or again, the distortion of script; in my opinion.

It's often said that comedy is one of the hardest genres to pull off- and in my opinion, it is. It's difficult to come up with fresh, new jokes every chapter in a comedy over a year old- there are reasons why everyone believes that Red vs. Blue Season 1 and 2 are the best, or why the first Shrek film is the best. So keep that in mind, too.

First off, I have never, ever heard that said. And I must respectfully disagree. As Ced said, comedies are no harder to pull off than any other genre. Especially not the quality of comedies on BZPower. Again, piggybacking off of what Ced said, if an epic or short story doesn't grasp my attention from the start, I'm not going to continue reading. The exception, of course, is if I'm doing it for the SSCC or ECC (or if I just decided that I'm going to review something because I want to be helpful), in which case I'll push myself through it. And, while you're mentioning popular non-BZP comedies, let me go off on that tangent. I can't comment on Red vs. Blue because I've never seen it; Shrek, while it had it's funny parts, wasn't what I would call a great comedy -- it just wasn't that good in my opinion. But that may just be a matter of opinion and taste so I won't say any more on that. Point is, my favorite comedy TV show -- and I know many people agree with me -- is How I Met Your Mother. It's a highly respected sit-com, highly rated. It's had seven seasons so far, and in my opinion, it has never dulled. Yes, there are a few episodes that weren't very funny, as if the producers were trying to force things in, but that was a very rare exception.But why is HIMYM such a good show? Because it's not just a comedy, even though it's genre is a sit-com. And that's because it has good writing. It makes you both laugh and cry. It gets you involved in the story -- when a character hates another character, you find yourself hating that character too. You find yourself rooting for some couples to be together, I could go on and on. But my point is that it gives you what the comedies on BZPower do not. Which is understandable -- it's harder to make things as funny when they're written instead of shown on a TV. But, how does it give you -- that is, something truly enjoyable -- what comedies on BZPower do not? A lot of it is due to characterization. There are some very, very sad parts to HIMYM. There are parts that make you mad. But still, it can call itself a comedy because it is a comedy. A majority of the TV show is comedic. But there are also sad/etc. parts because you get invested in the characters.Because a comedy doesn't need to be funny all the time. Then it just simply fails, because it would be impossible to think of jokes for that long -- especially good jokes. But that's exactly the point. You shouldn't have to try to think of ways to make it funny all the time. What you should do, in my opinion, is spend time on the characters. You make a character that in him- or herself is funny, and you give him/her a lot of depth that is also not funny, then you have what you need to make a good comedy -- because it gets people invested in/caring about the characters. Every single one of the main characters on HIMYM have funny traits about them. But they also have traits that make you love them, hate them, feel sorry for them, laugh pitifully at them, and on and on. Because you feel a connection because there is so much characterization. Barney is funny because of who he is sometimes. Yes, he does and says hilarious things, but again, there's an excuse for that -- that's him. You create a character that is just simply funny, then it's easy to make people laugh -- all you have to do is have the character act in character.But now for an example in literature. The Dresden Files (as I believe I've mentioned before), while not meant to be a comedy series at all, can be very, very funny a lot of times simply because the main character, Harry Dresden, is funny (as well as a character named Bob). Just in himself. And so there are a lot of times that he is funny because that's who he is. He does things that are genuinely funny. Again, it's not meant to be a comedy exactly, but Jim Butcher (the author) could easily write a comedy using Harry Dresden. It's all because of a good character with good character traits.

In addition, have you ever wondered why us writers from Comedies rarely (if ever) stray into Short Stories and Epics? I've posted a few short stories, and some have garnered much attention (such as Avalanche and The Trial and Execution of Makuta Teridax), but others don't receive a single reply (such as What Lurks Below). I've posted a few Epics, and none of them have received any replies at all. None. Every author knows how it feels when not a single person will comment on your work, even if it's just to point out several grammatical errors and the like and say "better luck next time". I got a reply very similar to that from Snoopy82 on a short story I posted in November- the only comment my story received. And I was ecstatic, because although all he really said was "it's too short", at least it was something to help me further in my writing. The zilch replies average in Epics and Short Stories really turns me off, and I'm sure it turns off other authors from Comedies too, because if you're not the elite there, if you're not the highest of the highest, then you're not worth anything. At least in Comedies, even if it's your first time writing, you're bound to get a reply or two explaining what you might've done wrong and how you can make it better next time.

Well let me begin by simply saying that that isn't true, at all. Many, many great writers on BZP get few replies. Tolkien is one of the best writers here on BZPower. Yet his stories don't always get that many replies (I'm using him because he's one of the greatest that are still active). But that happens with a lot of people -- ToM's latest two stories (which, were a long time ago), if I remember right, also did not receive many replies. Lady K has had stories that haven't received many replies. In fact, it's usually the poorly written stories that get the most replies, simply because they have a group of friends that will either reply to their stories or will just keep "chatting" that's somehow semi-related to the story but not at all constructive. And THAT is how it is in Comedies. Most replies aren't helpful. At all. Sure, they may be slight ego boosts, they may point out their favorite quote of the comedy, but those replies aren't really helpful. I'd much, much rather have one in-depth reply than a million, short, non-constructive posts. Yes, it's nice to get short replies that just say they liked the story. But again, those aren't all that helpful. Because a lot of times those "the story is great!" posts just aren't true, and so then while it may keep someone writing as they are ego-boosted, it won't help them improve at all. And, yes, I realize that there are some slightly constructive reviews, but again, for the most part, not really. I understand where you're coming with the lack of replies in SSs and Epics. It's true, but really the Library on BZP as a whole is never very active. And it's very unfortunate. Thankfully, though, the short stories forum does seem to be picking up now in activity. And hey, honestly, it's up to you and me and everyone else to make the forums more active. My way of thinking is that if you want reviews -- you want the SS forum to be more active -- then you should help it become more active. That's why I run and am part of the SSCC; it helps with that. And that's why I'm trying to review more and more short stories when I can, even though I don't have any Bionicle stories posted on the new forums. Simply because I care. I want the forum to be more active, so I'm going to help, like with the SSCC and just on my own, too.

It's because of that feel in Comedies that I'm still on this site today, three and a half years after joining. Had I not gotten those replies in the beginning, I would've never stuck around to still be receiving replies now.

I realize that. And partially I'm the same way. People's replies -are- what kept me writing. But you know what? Part of that was from the SSCC, but I'll comment on this more later because there's actually a discussion on that later. =P But back to people's replies on my own things...it was the long, in-depth, constructive replies that kept me writing. Even extremely negative ones. Takuta-Nui, one of my favorite authors, once posted "I didn't like this." in one of my old, poorly written short stories (and proceeded to say "but I have good reasons, which I will explain" and he did explain them). That review has been one of the most helpful reviews I've ever received. Because my writing was bad back then. And I was okay with that because people kept posting "great story!" or other short, unconstructive replies. I'm so, so happy I received negative reviews -- but constructive ones -- because they helped me become the writer I am today, which is much better than I was back then. So yes I may still be writing if I had just gotten a bunch of small reviews, but I wouldn't be writing anywhere near as good as I do now.

First, I must agree- script comedies can be far easier to write, and I will admit it's easy to fall into traps and snares with them (those being emoticons and the like). As for the characters thing, I'm not sure I worded that well. While what you said is right, I think characters can be developed in script easily. For instance, if I wrote a script comedy where Tahu and Gali were in love, and Tahu was all hotheaded, but then Gali died tragically, would it not be considered character development if I had Tahu moping and moaning for several chapters afterward, albeit in a humourous way?

Well sure that could be considered slight character development, but I wouldn't consider it character development. It's nothing substantial. To have character development, you need to have a lot more than that. I know you were just giving a short example, but anyway. Also, I want to bring back my earlier point again -- if Gali died, why would Tahu mope in a humorous way? Comedies don't need to be humorous all the time. It's okay to have serious and sad parts in comedies. In fact, that is a very, very good thing.

As for your comment about actual script - how would you define it to be a "real" script, minus without emoticons? Because by that definition alone, I know that my comedies and the ones I read that are script would be considered "real" script.

Well take a look at a play for example. There's stage directions/etc., there's proper grammar, there aren't asterisks denoting action, there aren't a bunch of all caps sentences, etc. Really the only similarity now is that you have the character's name and then what he says, but that alone, in my opinion, isn't script.

I am tooootally on topic right now, if you mean to say I'm not.

Yep, don't worry, this is completely on-topic -- this is the Library Discussion Topic; anything library related is completely fine.

I suppose it does count, though it was one that many people read, so then again... =P I generally don't count any of the critic clubs (not even the CCC, which I'm the head of), since they only review on request, and thus the reviewer usually hasn't gone out of their way to post beforehand. A long, complimentary review is always nice to get from the clubs -heck, any long review, to be honest- but I still don't count it fully as the author asked for it.

Okay, back to what I wanted to get into earlier with the SSCC. I really don't get your reasoning to "critics club reviews don't count." If anything, they count even more than any other review, specifically because they're actually helpful and constructive, unlike most other reviews. Now, no, I'm not saying that every post in the library isn't constructive -- there are many short posts that are -- but a post with the quality of the critics club (or, rather, at least the SSCC and ECC because I am involved in both and can speak for their elitism; I haven't been checking out the reviews of the CCC so can't say) are much, much more helpful. Again, I'm not saying other posts aren't helpful, too, but reviews from the SSCC and ECC are, again, much more helpful. And, again, as Aderia said, simply by posting an author is asking for a review; there's not much difference except when he requests from a club he's asking for a good review. And honestly, what does that say about the CCC, then? You're basically saying your own club doesn't count. Anyway, I agree completely with everything Aderia said on the matter -- club review should count more, if anything. And agreeing with Ced on this point, too: if someone was to receive just one review -- a critics club review -- then that is enough for them to keep writing, keep trying, and produce something even better in the future. Because every writer can get better. And club reviews help. Really, truly help. I must echo Ced in that, as a fellow critics club leader (lol, all three of us are here), I think you can appreciate that -- that your club means something, and it does truly help writers. Moreso than most other posts. Anyway, I look forward to your reply, ibrow. =]@ fishers -- I very much so agree that oftentimes it's the poorly written stories that get more replies than the amazingly written ones, as I said earlier.

I wasn't making a point about receiving few reviews. I was talking only about work that is passed over without anything. There has to be a reason that a story is simply passed over without absolutely any interaction from members. Replies may not reflect quality, but when no one thinks a story is worth saying a word about, that seems to suggest something is wrong. I'm not going to fault some writers because they have a small but loyal and/or active fanbase and that gets them more reviews.

And here is where I must respectfully disagree, Ced. Sometimes I think the library is just dead, and so reviews aren't given. Yes, for the most part, the authors that are well-known for being good at what they do will get at least one reply (but, again, unfortunately often times they get very few when poor-quality works get a lot; it should be the other way around but it's not), but I have seen times when good stories have no replies. Especially when a good story comes from an unknown author. But that's what I think the critics clubs are for -- they're for good and bad stories alike, and I think everyone and anyone could benefit from a review by the SSCC and ECC (I know you agree on that point, I was just throwing it out there to reiterate my previous point to ibrow =P).

If you're willing to go out of your way to review stuff that is untouched by others, I think that's great. You're providing a wonderful service to the library and it's writers that way. Still, defending comedy work as you have, I have a hard time agreeing with you. Good writing still needs a good plot, and there is my problem with comedies. Even if the writing can stand on its own, the comedy just doesn't land for me and the plot often feels hollow or forced. And that's not something that can be changed, it's merely an opinion.

Agreed completely (and with most of your other points, but you already know that. =P Just wanted to point out this in particular). That's why I'm trying to now go out and find stories with zero replies and reply to them. I haven't had time yet (except once this past week) due to school and other things that take priority, but now that it's summer, once I get a bunch of huge projects at least started and some other things done that I need to do first, then I hope to spend time in the SSs and even COT forums, reviewing short stories. But that's also why I'm part of the SSCC and ECC -- so that stories with no replies can get good reviews. And while that's all I had time for before, again, I hope to review even more things outside of the clubs.

I pretty much agree with Cederak that most comedies don't seem to have a lot of effort put into them (although to be fair I've seen a fair amount of epics and short stories with little effort put into them, too). On the other hand, though, it's a lot easier to get replies in the Comedies forum than it is in the Epics or Short Stories forum. I don't post my stories purely for replies and reviews, but I've noticed that I can post an epic, a short story, and a comedy in the same time period and the comedy is the only one of the three that is guaranteed to get at least one reply.

Oh, yes, definitely -- many epics and short stories have little effort put into them, as well. I just think that there still seems to be a lot more effort put into quality work in the epics and short stories forum. And unfortunately you are right -- again, the SS and Epics forums are not very active. I've seen many, many amazing stories with few replies. But I think it's also up to us to change that. For example, recently Nuile has been posting a lot of reviews in the short stories forum. Very good, quality, in-depth reviews, too. And that's making a difference. That's why I'm trying to do that, too, but I've only done it with one story so far (with the exception of the SSCC) -- because that helps. If more people start giving reviews, then maybe the forum as a whole will pick up in activity. And, to be completely honest: the SS forum has been having increased activity lately. Which is amazing, and I hope it stays that way and gets even more active.

Aside from that, don't have much to say except that this is a good discussion. More discussion is always good, IMO.

Agreed!

as compared to Epics which gets a lot of replies to a great quantity of works?

Gotta disagree here. There's only a few epics that get a lot of replies, and it basically comes down to three reasons: 1) there's a few people who have a "conversation" that is somehow semi-related to the epic, which causes for a great number of posts, albeit short posts; 2) there's a small group of friends who will reply to each others' epics; or 3) the epic is part of a project that many people are either involved in or just interested in. Anyway, I look forward to everyone's replies -- this is a fun discussion. ^_^

**Hahli Husky** · June 20, 2012

I just wanted to remind everyone in this topic who wanted another Library Olympics that now's your chance to add a tasteful comedy to the forum that's generally regarded as distasteful. And probably win it, because we have like, two entries so far?

**Aderia** · June 20, 2012

Can I just say that this probably what I look like, reading this debate? Intense stuff goes down here.Anyways, some things I want to throw out there:

2) there's a small group of friends who will reply to each others' epics;

I don't like cliques. I hate to use that word, because it brings to mind gaggles of middle school girls squabbling as only annoying middle school girls can. And nothing against groups of friends, I've got my own. We're mostly writers, but to be honest, most of our reviews to each other are via AIM or chat, which I actually find the most helpful. But seriously, the story with a gazillion replies in the review topic actually has some of the least constructive reveiws, and the authors don't realize that their writing is not improving because, as awesome and ego-inflating as their friends may be, posting in the review topic like the world's gonna end, rarely have I seen issues addressed in those 'reviews' about lack of character development, or crummy descriptions, choppy dialogue, etc etc. I'm not secretly pointing at any groups or stories under the table, I just wanted to say.

the epic is part of a project that many people are either involved in or just interested in.

One example that immediately jumps to mind is the BZPRPG. I've seen numerous short stories and epics about characters from the RPG. It actually discourages me from reading them just because I'm not active much in the RP, and I feel like I'd feel lost reading the stories. Another thing that also can scare me away from a story, no matter how good it may be, is length. Recently, I've been printing off stories that I want to read (three columns, front and back, 6pt font, don't worry, I save trees

), and it also helps when I review, or have to for the ECC, because I find that it's easier to find the nitpicks on a hard copy.

Reading this discussion, it's made me wonder if I should rethink my current approach to my comedy [...]

Hey, this makes two of us! I was looking to enter the 2012 LSO Comedy competition, but this discussion has given me a lot to chew on before actually sitting down to write. My opinion of the Comedy's Forum has changed, and I hope a lot of good will come out of this discussion from the people who read it.

For example, recently Nuile has been posting a lot of reviews in the short stories forum. Very good, quality, in-depth reviews, too. And that's making a difference.

On another note, props to Nuile. I've also noticed his reviews. Another member I've also seen making an effort to brighten the SS forum with reviews as of recently is http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showuser=109337I've also seen story recommendations here and there, like in sigs and blogs and personal libraries mostly. And I'd love to see more of them, because I've gotten quite a few good reads.

As for your comment about actual script - how would you define it to be a "real" script, minus without emoticons? Because by that definition alone, I know that my comedies and the ones I read that are script would be considered "real" script.
Well take a look at a play for example. There's stage directions/etc., there's proper grammar, there aren't asterisks denoting action, there aren't a bunch of all caps sentences, etc. Really the only similarity now is that you have the character's name and then what he says, but that alone, in my opinion, isn't script.

So, when I popped into the Comedy's Forum for the first time in ages, for potential LSO research, the script formatting of the stories I looked at really threw me off. In my draft, my script had a few stage directions and normal-ish grammar, and when I saw all the asterisks denoting action and emotes, it threw me. I looked at my (six lines of) script and was like, "...Wait, am I doing this wrong?" But I guess it all goes back to personal preference and writing style.Also, would/could a more satirical, bordering cynical, story be counted as a comedy? Like I've been mentioning, I'm not the most avid BZP comedy reader, but from what I've seen, a lot of the comedies aren't the kind of stories that I'm talking about. I'd elaborate, but I actually have to cut this post short, because real life calls.(Phew, it was nice to get some of that off my chest)

fishers64 · June 21, 2012

@ fishers -- I very much so agree that oftentimes it's the poorly written stories that get more replies than the amazingly written ones, as I said earlier.
as compared to Epics which gets a lot of replies to a great quantity of works?
Gotta disagree here. There's only a few epics that get a lot of replies, and it basically comes down to three reasons: 1) there's a few people who have a "conversation" that is somehow semi-related to the epic, which causes for a great number of posts, albeit short posts; 2) there's a small group of friends who will reply to each others' epics; or 3) the epic is part of a project that many people are either involved in or just interested in. Anyway, I look forward to everyone's replies -- this is a fun discussion.

It's just been my experience that a slowly updated epic will often get buried pages down on that forum, whereas in the comedies forum the same four works often occupy the top spots. I do have to agree that those "conversational friend" cliques often exist, yes, and lots of people will respond to poorly written works because they are easier to rip apart. More stuff to complain about. And yes, this whole thing is causing me to rethink my possible entry into the comedies contest. I have a better idea now. (It shall have an actual plot! Run! I hope.)

**GSR** · June 21, 2012

I will say this discussion is leading me to look over that unrelated-to-the-LSO non-prose comedy I've got about 2,000 words into. It's meant to be a pretty light story, but it can't hurt to revise and see if it could benefit from a little more time and effort. It's also got me more resolved to start working on reading more stories and giving feedback (as I mentioned in Velox's blog post, I'll definitely be looking into the ECC this Friday.)As for replies and discussion about stories - while I agree that a 0-reply story can be indicative of quality, I also think it's really not that simple, as has been pointed out. Reviews can frequently be a case of member X knowing member Y and giving his/her stories the extra time - though not on BZP, I've read and reviewed stories I'd probably pass over because a friend wrote them. It's also true that reviews are a case of quality over quantity; positive feedback is always great, but getting some honest opinions on issues with your work is often much more valuable.

**Voltex** · June 21, 2012

No time to reply properly right now; but I will say, Aderia, that's probably fine.@Velox in quick response to your script statement: I'll take that into mind; I personally started writing script long after Comedies began writing that way, and before I'd actuallly seen any sort of real script. Regardless, I'll be able to say more later. =P-ibrow

**Velox** · June 21, 2012

One example that immediately jumps to mind is the BZPRPG. I've seen numerous short stories and epics about characters from the RPG. It actually discourages me from reading them just because I'm not active much in the RP, and I feel like I'd feel lost reading the stories. Another thing that also can scare me away from a story, no matter how good it may be, is length. Recently, I've been printing off stories that I want to read (three columns, front and back, 6pt font, don't worry, I save trees ), and it also helps when I review, or have to for the ECC, because I find that it's easier to find the nitpicks on a hard copy.

First off, I agree to what you said above. But now in reply to this: exactly! Another example I can think of off the top of my head is the Expanded Multiverse. But either way, the point is, many people are both drawn and turned away to stories like that for the reasons you said; if you're not involved, you might be lost if you try to read it (and if you are involved, then you'd be drawn to it). And agian, it's not a bad thing, but it's just a reason why some stories are more popular than others. Which is unfortunate because I wish all stories could have that "loyal fan base" but they don't.And yes, length will definitely scare me away, too. Because unless that story is very good it's going to be very easy for me to start not liking it.

So, when I popped into the Comedy's Forum for the first time in ages, for potential LSO research, the script formatting of the stories I looked at really threw me off. In my draft, my script had a few stage directions and normal-ish grammar, and when I saw all the asterisks denoting action and emotes, it threw me. I looked at my (six lines of) script and was like, "...Wait, am I doing this wrong?" But I guess it all goes back to personal preference and writing style.

Haha, yeah, don't worry it sounds like you're doing it right. If it looks sort of like any published play, then that should be the correct format.

Also, would/could a more satirical, bordering cynical, story be counted as a comedy? Like I've been mentioning, I'm not the most avid BZP comedy reader, but from what I've seen, a lot of the comedies aren't the kind of stories that I'm talking about. I'd elaborate, but I actually have to cut this post short, because real life calls.

For the contest/forum-rules-wise, yes that would be completely fine. =] (#officialstaffanswer =P) How well it might fit in with the other comedies, or how popular it might be, that's a different question entirely. Because you're right -- almost every other comedy would be far different from what you're talking about. But I would urge you to still write/post it anyway, because I, for one, would be interested in reading it. And we need more entries for the LSO! =P

It's just been my experience that a slowly updated epic will often get buried pages down on that forum, whereas in the comedies forum the same four works often occupy the top spots. I do have to agree that those "conversational friend" cliques often exist, yes, and lots of people will respond to poorly written works because they are easier to rip apart. More stuff to complain about.

Yes, but those four comedies occupy the top spot because they're either updated often or have a "loyal fan base" -- in fact, it seems to be, for the most part, the same few people who will always reply oftentimes. Not necessarily a bad thing -- it's good to have some friends/fans who are loyal and will always reply, my issue is just when those replies are short and not constructive, which unfortunately happens a lot in those types of situations. I did it, too, back when I was involved in comedies.But at least in epics, it's unfortunate because a lot of the time it's the better-written stories that aren't updated as often (at least not every day, which is the better decision anyway in my opinion), and therefore pushed down. Or, again, often it's due to two or three people posting a lot in the review topic, pushing that epic up the list.

As for replies and discussion about stories - while I agree that a 0-reply story can be indicative of quality, I also think it's really not that simple, as has been pointed out. Reviews can frequently be a case of member X knowing member Y and giving his/her stories the extra time - though not on BZP, I've read and reviewed stories I'd probably pass over because a friend wrote them. It's also true that reviews are a case of quality over quantity; positive feedback is always great, but getting some honest opinions on issues with your work is often much more valuable.

Yep, exactly; agreed. And I'm glad it's inspiring you to start reading/reviewing more stories. To be perfectly honest, it's inspiring me, too, even though I said it. =P

@Velox in quick response to your script statement: I'll take that into mind; I personally started writing script long after Comedies began writing that way, and before I'd actuallly seen any sort of real script. Regardless, I'll be able to say more later. =P-ibrow

All right, well I'll hold off on anything else to say until then, too. =P Except just to say that I was the same way -- until I started reading plays and even writing a couple short stories written in script format for school. Anyway, I look forward to hearing your full reply! ^_^

And, I'd like to just echo HH here: please enter the LSO!

fishers64 · June 22, 2012

Also, would/could a more satirical, bordering cynical, story be counted as a comedy? Like I've been mentioning, I'm not the most avid BZP comedy reader, but from what I've seen, a lot of the comedies aren't the kind of stories that I'm talking about. I'd elaborate, but I actually have to cut this post short, because real life calls.

I wrote a satire and put it in the comedies forum awhile back, and it went over like a lead balloon. No one got it. I suspect, however, if you write it, then you'll get a ton of posts ripping it apart.

@Velox: Agreed!As for the LSO, I'm working on it. Relax.

shadow pridak money gang · June 22, 2012

I don't think he was ever actually cramming it down anyone's throats...Anyway, I think that a satire, if done right, could go over really well in the contest. Such a comedy is hard to do on a site like BZP, but if done correctly, in the capable hands of someone like Ads, it has the potential to go really far in the contest.-Teezy

**Voltex** · June 22, 2012

Alright Velox, I'm going to do my best here, but I'm like, a day or two late (exams.... ugh), so this probably isn't going to be exactly how I originally intended. That said, your comments about Comedies not having to be funny all of the time is actually something I agree with- however, it's something that's hard to say when the forum is labelled "Comedies". Speaking from experience, if a chapter strays into the plot development and character development department, you tend to get less replies if you can't do it in a humorous manner. Hence why ot becomes difficult after awhile. That said, your statement (and others through this topic) and been giving me some ideas for a reboot of one of my comedies once it ends. And I promise it's not the script one. =PI will agree with your comments on the posts in Comedies. The people there overall seem to sort of vanish whenever something is either 1) Not to their tastes, or 2) If they might have to give an in-depth review. Exceptions being the CCC in our reviews and any of our occasional other posts, and one or two members I know (gonna point Vinylstep out here) that don't like replying unless it's a full-fledged review.As to the reviews- believe me, I've gotten some negative replies before too. Heck, fishers64 said on the old forums in Tahu vs. Tahu something along the lines of "this doesn't belong in Comedies, it belongs in Epics. I just don't think it's very funny at all". And I've gotten a few negative reviews that explained how I could make things better, and they helped, but that comment just ticked me off, and I think it made me even better. Has fishers ever posted in TvT since? No. =P But I took one look at that post and I said to myself, "I'm proving you WRONG, BUDDY. WRONG!!!". And thus my ideas regarding TvT have been changed ever since. I'm not sure I've made any sort of point in this paragraph, but you know what... I'm not sure I would've been able to in the first place.For the Tahu/Gali scenario, a valid point, and it would certainly make more sense, but does a comedy have to make sense? Especially regarding sad and depressing topics, I've found it's extremely hard to get back into the comedy aspect- a pitfall I fell into with TvT Season 3, and it took me almost three months to come up with an answer. It was a difficult maneuvre, as I eventually decided that to get it back on track I couldn't waste time with everybody being sad and depressed all the time, and I needed to have that make sense in terms of plot. It turned into the first few chapters of Season 4, and I had everybody commenting that the main characters were acting strange. Comments on script: noted. Although I don't think I have the time and energy to put into creating a comedy that replicates the formula of a play exactly. For the Critics Club comments: I'm extremely disappointed right now, because I didn't word my thoughts well at all not once, but like, two or three times. I meant I don't count the reviews in terms of a post- so if a story had only one comment and it's from, say, the CCC- I would certainly count that as a review, and probably a good one at that, but since the author asked for the review, in terms of the number of replies a topic has received, I wouldn't count it. Am I making sense?@Aderia and Velox on BZPRPG and others: I feel the same, and that's why I generally try to make sure my stories use canonical characters if possible, so that people will at least know the characters. In terms of the same four comedies almost always occupying the top spots: yes, it's because they're updated frequently. Or, in the case of Tahu vs. Tahu, people are wondering if I'm going to pull the comedy back down from orbit anytime soon. As for the LSO, my entry is done, I'm just waiting for a little bit to get a quick question answered to make sure it's within the rules.-ibrow

fishers64 · June 23, 2012

As to the reviews- believe me, I've gotten some negative replies before too. Heck, fishers64 said on the old forums in Tahu vs. Tahu something along the lines of "this doesn't belong in Comedies, it belongs in Epics. I just don't think it's very funny at all". And I've gotten a few negative reviews that explained how I could make things better, and they helped, but that comment just ticked me off, and I think it made me even better. Has fishers ever posted in TvT since? No. =P But I took one look at that post and I said to myself, "I'm proving you WRONG, BUDDY. WRONG!!!". And thus my ideas regarding TvT have been changed ever since. I'm not sure I've made any sort of point in this paragraph, but you know what... I'm not sure I would've been able to in the first place.

I thought about pointing that out when people were bashing Comedies for being slapstick and about cheap jokes - "ibrow's Comedy was so bad at that I thought it was an epic and that he was just posting it in the Comedies forum to get all the replies in the same topic". :PYes, that was one of my unspectacular noob moments. If I haven't done so already, I owe you an apology for that one. I'm glad you were able to take something out of that, though. That aside, negative/constructive comments do exist - I've taken a few. I did remember, however, that one comedy got a bunch of negative reviews and Hahli Husky came in and said "You are not allowed to post all-negative reviews in the Library." Since then, I've tried to look for potential in even the worst bits - sometimes I see that they have a great idea and don't know how to develop it, and I say so. On the reverse side of the coin, I tend not to rip it up unless I see the errors the first time through or I can't enjoy what I'm reading. I don't see much point in being overtly negative, because bashing for the sake of bashing doesn't really help, cases in point above.

**Voltex** · June 23, 2012

As to the reviews- believe me, I've gotten some negative replies before too. Heck, fishers64 said on the old forums in Tahu vs. Tahu something along the lines of "this doesn't belong in Comedies, it belongs in Epics. I just don't think it's very funny at all". And I've gotten a few negative reviews that explained how I could make things better, and they helped, but that comment just ticked me off, and I think it made me even better. Has fishers ever posted in TvT since? No. =P But I took one look at that post and I said to myself, "I'm proving you WRONG, BUDDY. WRONG!!!". And thus my ideas regarding TvT have been changed ever since. I'm not sure I've made any sort of point in this paragraph, but you know what... I'm not sure I would've been able to in the first place.
I thought about pointing that out when people were bashing Comedies for being slapstick and about cheap jokes - "ibrow's Comedy was so bad at that I thought it was an epic and that he was just posting it in the Comedies forum to get all the replies in the same topic". :PYes, that was one of my unspectacular noob moments. If I haven't done so already, I owe you an apology for that one. I'm glad you were able to take something out of that, though.That aside, negative/constructive comments do exist - I've taken a few. I did remember, however, that one comedy got a bunch of negative reviews and Hahli Husky came in and said "You are not allowed to post all-negative reviews in the Library." Since then, I've tried to look for potential in even the worst bits - sometimes I see that they have a great idea and don't know how to develop it, and I say so. On the reverse side of the coin, I tend not to rip it up unless I see the errors the first time through or I can't enjoy what I'm reading. I don't see much point in being overtly negative, because bashing for the sake of bashing doesn't really help, cases in point above.

Ugh, that was the Curse You Greg series. I lost proto because of that, which taught me a bit of what not to do when "reviewing".

Although one thing I noticed after losing the proto was that my comedies suddenly started getting more views and a bit more comments, which was odd. And then other members who lost proto in the incident started talking to me like we were the rebels fighting the empire in Star Wars.To be on-topic, indeed being overly negative isn't great, and when I do encounter a comedy that I would truly consider bad, if I have to review it, I tread extremely carefully, because a new writer's dreams can be crushed with one flick if you dare to try. I have given my share of bad reviews, however.Now I have a question for you all: Do you tend to have your interest captured by more traditional Short Stories/Comedies/Epics, or do you often find yourself looking at more experimental stories?-ibrow

fishers64 · June 23, 2012

If there is "traditional" style of Epics/Short Stories/Comedies, I seem to have missed it. Every work is unique. But I like the experimental stories better - the ones that go "out there" with really unique concepts no organic or partly-organic being has seen before.

Cederak · June 23, 2012

As to the reviews- believe me, I've gotten some negative replies before too. Heck, fishers64 said on the old forums in Tahu vs. Tahu something along the lines of "this doesn't belong in Comedies, it belongs in Epics. I just don't think it's very funny at all". And I've gotten a few negative reviews that explained how I could make things better, and they helped, but that comment just ticked me off, and I think it made me even better. Has fishers ever posted in TvT since? No. =P But I took one look at that post and I said to myself, "I'm proving you WRONG, BUDDY. WRONG!!!". And thus my ideas regarding TvT have been changed ever since. I'm not sure I've made any sort of point in this paragraph, but you know what... I'm not sure I would've been able to in the first place.
I thought about pointing that out when people were bashing Comedies for being slapstick and about cheap jokes - "ibrow's Comedy was so bad at that I thought it was an epic and that he was just posting it in the Comedies forum to get all the replies in the same topic". :PYes, that was one of my unspectacular noob moments. If I haven't done so already, I owe you an apology for that one. I'm glad you were able to take something out of that, though.That aside, negative/constructive comments do exist - I've taken a few. I did remember, however, that one comedy got a bunch of negative reviews and Hahli Husky came in and said "You are not allowed to post all-negative reviews in the Library." Since then, I've tried to look for potential in even the worst bits - sometimes I see that they have a great idea and don't know how to develop it, and I say so. On the reverse side of the coin, I tend not to rip it up unless I see the errors the first time through or I can't enjoy what I'm reading. I don't see much point in being overtly negative, because bashing for the sake of bashing doesn't really help, cases in point above.
Ugh, that was the Curse You Greg series. I lost proto because of that, which taught me a bit of what not to do when "reviewing". Although one thing I noticed after losing the proto was that my comedies suddenly started getting more views and a bit more comments, which was odd. And then other members who lost proto in the incident started talking to me like we were the rebels fighting the empire in Star Wars.To be on-topic, indeed being overly negative isn't great, and when I do encounter a comedy that I would truly consider bad, if I have to review it, I tread extremely carefully, because a new writer's dreams can be crushed with one flick if you dare to try. I have given my share of bad reviews, however.Now I have a question for you all: Do you tend to have your interest captured by more traditional Short Stories/Comedies/Epics, or do you often find yourself looking at more experimental stories?-ibrow

Should a competent critic let something like worrying a new writer will be "crushed" by a review concern them? A strong critique covers the best of a fine piece and puts a spotlight on it. Inversely, the same should happen with a poor piece of writing and worst of it. So long as you have reasons to support your views, solutions for improvement, and alternative ideas for executing ideas, you've done your part as a critic.Any writer that is dedicated to their craft, even the new ones, may be deterred by a negative reaction to a piece, but there's always an opportunity to study a story's shortcomings and improve. It's like fortifying a castle's defenses after the enemy has used a specific technique to break through. A writer must learn from past mistakes. A critic must also learn from past mistakes so that they will only produce positive reviews or negative reviews, but never bad ones.I'm not sure about your question though. I've enjoyed many stories that go off into what I would consider "experimental" directions and those that are more "traditional" with canon characters and things of that nature. Can't say I like one more than the other.-Ced Edited June 23, 2012 by Cederak

**Velox** · June 23, 2012

That said, your comments about Comedies not having to be funny all of the time is actually something I agree with- however, it's something that's hard to say when the forum is labelled "Comedies". Speaking from experience, if a chapter strays into the plot development and character development department, you tend to get less replies if you can't do it in a humorous manner. Hence why ot becomes difficult after awhile. That said, your statement (and others through this topic) and been giving me some ideas for a reboot of one of my comedies once it ends. And I promise it's not the script one. =P

Yes, the forum is labelled Comedies but that just goes back to what I said before -- HIMYM, for example, is placed in the Comedies genre, but it is not often comedic; I think that should be the case here, too, but people seem to think that just because something is called a Comedy it can't have any sort of other emotion. I'm glad you agree with that, though, but I don't think it should be hard to say -- a drama isn'tdrama 100% of the time, but it's placed in that genre anyway, because overall that's what it is. Same here; a comedy is, overall, a comedy. But that doesn't mean it always has to be comedic. As for the receiving less replies, I'd just respond with "it's not all about replies." Because it's not. I received many more replies for my comedy than I have anything else, but none of those posts were meaningful to me (and I am definitely writing better now than I was for my comedy). Yes, at the time they gave me an ego boost and made me feel good, but looking back on it I realize that it wasn't worth it. I might feel good temporarily, but if I don't grow as a writer, what's the point? All those many replies didn't help me at all -- all they did is show me that I didn't need to improve. But I did. Oh my goodness did I have to improve. Because when I first started out as a writer I was horrible. And that's why I feel so strongly about this. I'm not saying that every comedy writer is a bad writer or incapable or writing good literature, but I just don't like the impression that the Comedies forum gives. I realize that that's not how everyone feels, though. Exactly like you said: more replies are given when you don't go into character development or plot development. And more replies are given to comedies in general, it seems. But that's sad. Sure, it's good to have a laugh, but this is literature. Or it's trying to be. And literature should be fulfilling, enlivening, enlightening. Real, strong literature touches the soul, it makes it feel ablaze with emotion. Sometimes, that emotion can even be humor. But the literature I'm talking about manages to go beyond what I see in Comedies, work that only seems to be a betrayal to the word "literature." And unfortunately I don't think that will ever change.

I will agree with your comments on the posts in Comedies. The people there overall seem to sort of vanish whenever something is either 1) Not to their tastes, or 2) If they might have to give an in-depth review. Exceptions being the CCC in our reviews and any of our occasional other posts, and one or two members I know (gonna point Vinylstep out here) that don't like replying unless it's a full-fledged review.

I hear you. That's another thing that's very unfortunate. But that's another reason that the format of comedies doesn't appeal to me -- it encourages those kind of posts that aren't substantial whether because all they're doing is pointing out that they liked it or pointing out their favorite quote or just chatting orwhatever. And unfortunately those replies aren't completely absent from the other parts of the library, either, but they are much less frequent. But really the most unfortunate thing, I think, is something that you touched upon: people vanish if they might have to give an in-depth review. Because people don't want to take the time and reply to a lot of things or they don't have time to. I get that. I wish I could reply to every single short story with an in-depth reply, but I simply don't have time. But it's when people don't seem to care and will just post a million short replies that bugs me. Posts don't have to be the super length of SSCC reviews, but something that includes what the writer did right (what the reviewer likes), what the writer did wrong (what the reviewer doesn't like or what actually is just wrong, grammatically or otherwise), and how the writer can improve. Yes, of course the more in-depth the better, but any post that has some sort of substance is better than nothing or the short replies that have no meaning except possible ego boosts. And a good post can be given in just a few lines, but even then there's not many of them.

For the Tahu/Gali scenario, a valid point, and it would certainly make more sense, but does a comedy have to make sense? Especially regarding sad and depressing topics, I've found it's extremely hard to get back into the comedy aspect- a pitfall I fell into with TvT Season 3, and it took me almost three months to come up with an answer. It was a difficult maneuvre, as I eventually decided that to get it back on track I couldn't waste time with everybody being sad and depressed all the time, and I needed to have that make sense in terms of plot. It turned into the first few chapters of Season 4, and I had everybody commenting that the main characters were acting strange.

I think it should make sense, yes. It's still a story, it just happens to (in theory) be funnier than most others, but I don't think that's a reason for it to not make sense. As for getting back into the comedy aspect, my advice is just what I said before -- characters. I'll use this example again because, well, it works haha, and it's my favorite comedy: How I Met Your Mother. Yes, there are some extremely sad, heart-wrenching moments, but the characters help to relieve that because of who they are. For example Barney Stinson will often say things or do things that are hilarious even in serious situations, but it doesn't seem forced or out of place at all simply because that's who he is.If we're using the Tahu/Gali scenario again, then if Tahu dies Gali would, of course, be devastated, but that could be relieved by her hanging out with her friends; them perhaps doing stupid things to cheer her up that makes the story itself funny even if Gali may still be sad herself. Then, after a short time just because she's surrounded by other people she loves who are trying to cheer her up or whatever, then while she'll still be sad, she won't show it as much. I think it's a little harder with canon characters because you're kinda stuck with their personalities and whatnot, but then the down side to that is, as you said, that it might not attract as many people then because they'll have to either follow the comedy from the beginning or not follow it. And I mean, that's how it is with any epic or something in the library or any book or whatever (and why I prefer short stories on BZP -- which there could always be short comedic stories, too, but I don't see many of them). But plus, back to the canon characters thing, I think that those characters could easily be distorted. Yes, it might be funny to see Tahu do this thing or that, but the question is would he actually do that? But yeah, I can definitely see the difficulty changing the mood from sad to funny.

Comments on script: noted. Although I don't think I have the time and energy to put into creating a comedy that replicates the formula of a play exactly.

It's up to you, I was just stating my main reason for not liking the comedies on BZPower.

For the Critics Club comments: I'm extremely disappointed right now, because I didn't word my thoughts well at all not once, but like, two or three times. I meant I don't count the reviews in terms of a post- so if a story had only one comment and it's from, say, the CCC- I would certainly count that as a review, and probably a good one at that, but since the author asked for the review, in terms of the number of replies a topic has received, I wouldn't count it. Am I making sense?

Ah, yes, that makes sense. But I must again respectfully disagree. =P Simply for the reason I think I mentioned earlier: I'd rather have one critics club review than many non-helpful ones. Because for me it's not all about the number of replies. Yes, I like to see that people liked it -- I really, really do. I want replies, I want a lot of replies, even fairly short replies. But that doesn't change the fact that I'd rather have a reply from a critics club, even if I had to request it. Really, it'd be the same thing with your friends posting, then, I think: You ask them to reply to your story, either by directly asking them or indirectly simply because you're friends so they would reply anyway.

Since then, I've tried to look for potential in even the worst bits - sometimes I see that they have a great idea and don't know how to develop it, and I say so. On the reverse side of the coin, I tend not to rip it up unless I see the errors the first time through or I can't enjoy what I'm reading. I don't see much point in being overtly negative, because bashing for the sake of bashing doesn't really help, cases in point above.

I think it's good that you try to look for potential in even the worst stories -- I am always advocating uplifiting comments, but I think that being negative is also good. Not for the sake of bashing a story -- I don't do that, and I'm not sure why someone would -- but because constructive criticism is the best thing a story can receive, in my opinion. Even if you might be able to enjoy the story with the errors, I don't think that should stop you from pointing them out. The point of a review -- or should be, in my opinion -- is to help the writer get better. That means pointing out every single thing you can. But again, as I said earlier, every post doesn't have to be super long; I realize that if they did then the library would probably go down even more in activity. But I think that reviews should be as long as possible. They should try to point out every single thing you can because that really helps. If no one tells someone they're doing something wrong, they're never going to get better. So I don't think you should be overly "negative" necessarily, no -- and especially not bashing simply for the sake of bashing -- but I think that negative, but constructive (key word, here) is crucial. For example, when Takuta-Nui replied to one of my really old stories with "I didn't like this" that's obviously negative. And yes, it hurt my ego a little bit. But that remains one of the best reviews I have ever gotten, if not the best. Because it was extremely constructive. He told me why he didn't like it and he told me how to fix it. And that really was the point that I started to write at least decently, becuase I was fine with not being the best I could be until then. So yes, negative reviews hurt, but as long as they're constructive, I think they're the best thing any writer can get.

Now I have a question for you all: Do you tend to have your interest captured by more traditional Short Stories/Comedies/Epics, or do you often find yourself looking at more experimental stories?-ibrow

I pretty much agree with Ced completely here -- while I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, I definitely enjoy "experimental" stories but I'm not sure I like one more than the other.

**Hahli Husky** · June 24, 2012

That aside, negative/constructive comments do exist - I've taken a few. I did remember, however, that one comedy got a bunch of negative reviews and Hahli Husky came in and said "You are not allowed to post all-negative reviews in the Library." Since then, I've tried to look for potential in even the worst bits - sometimes I see that they have a great idea and don't know how to develop it, and I say so. On the reverse side of the coin, I tend not to rip it up unless I see the errors the first time through or I can't enjoy what I'm reading. I don't see much point in being overtly negative, because bashing for the sake of bashing doesn't really help, cases in point above.
Ugh, that was the Curse You Greg series. I lost proto because of that, which taught me a bit of what not to do when "reviewing". Although one thing I noticed after losing the proto was that my comedies suddenly started getting more views and a bit more comments, which was odd. And then other members who lost proto in the incident started talking to me like we were the rebels fighting the empire in Star Wars.

How long ago was that? I think McSmeag and I changed the rule while reposting the Library rule topics, during the extended BZP downtime last year. It now reads:

3) Criticism and praise in reviews must be constructive. Do not post generic replies like 'Do more!' or 'Keep up the good work!'. They are considered to be void of any meaning, and therefore are spam. Only saying "This was stupid!" or "Wow, this is awful." is also considered spam. Don't forget our zero tolerance for flaming and trolling, as well

Since the setup of the Comedies rules is different, the rule is written like this for Comedies:

"Generic Spam" - useless, non-constructive reviews like "Very good, KUTGW!" or "I laughed so hard!" or "I can't wait 'til the next chapter!!" or "This is stupid!" or "What a dumb story I hated it!" [is not allowed.]

I like it a lot better this way; it feels more fair to reviewers.

While it's good to try and find a positive point when you review, people can't be forced to do that. That's lame. However, by the time we changed the rule, I'd forgotten about the whole Curse You Greg incident (honestly I started partying when I finally had a legit excuse to close those topics.) Proto was removed from the comedy's supporters and haters alike in that incident mostly for trolling and/or flaming, though. Edited June 24, 2012 by Larry Fine

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