Av-Matoran abilities, and the Onu-Metru Archives

[Lielac]

I have some related questions, all relating to Av-Matoran and what makes sense to my fellow speculators.1. Would anyone's suspension of disbelief be broken if an Av-Matoran who doesn't realize they're an Av-Matoran (henceforth referred to as "Takua", with all the appropriate pronouns thereof) lost his ability to automatically hide his natural colors after an incident of good ol' head trauma? This being that time when Takua got flung halfway across the island and landed on Ta-Wahi beach.2. Would it be reasonable that Takua could be able to create a very bright flash of light to 'burn away' artificially dark shadows like ones created by a Makuta? I'm thinking it would be created out of desperation and fear and take all of what elemental energy Takua has.3. Would the Onu-Metru Archives have information on Av-Matoran? That is, if Takua went to Turaga Whenua all white and gold, would it be reasonable for Turaga Whenua to recognize his coloring as the default of a Matoran of Light, and possibly have some history lessons on what Av-Matoran are said to be able to do?

Edited August 29, 2012 by Lielac

[Katuko]

The first, I could see that happening, but it depends on how the power actually works. If it's subconsciously active, then getting knocked out might change the color back, but from what we've seen it seems more like an internal setting of sorts. You set it mentally, and then the body keeps that color until you manually change it again.The second one, no, I don't think he could do that. An Av-Matoran would be on level with a Turaga when it comes to power, except with a larger "battery". I don't think any of them would be able to break through a Makuta's shadow for more than a second, since Makuta have Toa-level Shadow control, possibly even more.No one outside of Karda Nui - with the exception of the Brotherhood of Makuta, the Order of Mata Nui and Arthaka - would know about the Av-Matoran, seeing as their existence was hidden. Seeing Takua in white and gold would probably fit the legends of one (and the Avohkii's appearance), but it would not make them able to definitely confirm him as a Matoran of Light without seeing a more direct power at work. Otherwise it might as well be a mysterious illusion of color or something, which are powers they are more used to seeing.

[Lielac]

The first, I could see that happening, but it depends on how the power actually works. If it's subconsciously active, then getting knocked out might change the color back, but from what we've seen it seems more like an internal setting of sorts. You set it mentally, and then the body keeps that color until you manually change it again.

Hmmm. What BS01 says is that "They have been trained to use this power by reflex to help keep their elemental affiliation secret.", so to me it seems like a subconsciously active thing because the phrasing suggests it's not a switch on, switch off kind of thing and they need training that could, theoretically, be forgotten if their brainpan is smacked right. I am woefully short on books; does anyone have 2008 books that go into more detail on how Av-Matoran color changing works?

The second one, no, I don't think he could do that. An Av-Matoran would be on level with a Turaga when it comes to power, except with a larger "battery". I don't think any of them would be able to break through a Makuta's shadow for more than a second, since Makuta have Toa-level Shadow control, possibly even more.

A second might be all he needs, if the Makuta is just testing him and backs off to think about this proof that Takua's not just some other kind of white and gold Matoran so he can add it into his Plans... I'm not married to the scene, though, and if the general consensus is that Takua couldn't do it then I'll take a machete to it and figure out something different.

No one outside of Karda Nui - with the exception of the Brotherhood of Makuta, the Order of Mata Nui and Arthaka - would know about the Av-Matoran, seeing as their existence was hidden. Seeing Takua in white and gold would probably fit the legends of one (and the Avohkii's appearance), but it would not make them able to definitely confirm him as a Matoran of Light without seeing a more direct power at work. Otherwise it might as well be a mysterious illusion of color or something, which are powers they are more used to seeing.

I know the Time Slip erased those six months of moving Av-Matoran around, but there's nothing on BS01 that I can find saying there was any erasure of information about Av-Matoran. Just that hiding and memory-changing of some Av-Matoran so the Makuta couldn't take them all out at once. I can still definitely see no one being sure with just the colors, even if there was an entry in the Archives about Av-Matoran and Whenua memorized it for some strange reason.

[Constructelf]

Two QuestionsIf Takua was an Av-Matoran, wouldn't the fellow Ta-Koro matoran notice his weird color and his low tolerance of heat? He would be sticking out like a sore thumb.If the Av-Matoran were created as the prototype, why were all subsequent matoran created weaker, not stronger, than they are?Also, there's nothing on BS01 that says that nobody knows about Av-Matoran. The way I see it is the Archives having detailed records of each of the fifteen tribes (Fir, Water, Air, Stone, Earth, Ice, Light, Lightning, Plasma, Magnetism, Sonics, Iron, The Green, Gravity, and Psionics)

Edited August 29, 2012 by Constructman

[Lielac]

If Takua was an Av-Matoran, wouldn't the fellow Ta-Koro matoran notice his weird color and his low tolerance of heat? He would be sticking out like a sore thumb.

He is an Av-Matoran, and always has been. Low tolerance of heat relative to 'other' Ta-Matoran could be chalked up to "Takua's weird" though it's never mentioned in canon that I can recall, and as for his weird color him being white and gold would be a very recent development brought on by head trauma, and he's already been weird-colored since forever.

If the Av-Matoran were created as the prototype, why were all subsequent matoran created weaker, not stronger, than they are?

I have absolutely no idea. The GBs figured the Matoran having awesome semi-Toa powers would be too overpowered? (But that's speculation.)

Also, there's nothing on BS01 that says that nobody knows about Av-Matoran. The way I see it is the Archives having detailed records of each of the fifteen tribes (Fir, Water, Air, Stone, Earth, Ice, Light, Lightning, Plasma, Magnetism, Sonics, Iron, The Green, Gravity, and Psionics)

Yeah, though probably only excruciating detail on the main six. Light would probably have the least detail of all and be couched in speculative terms because probably not a single one of the archivists have actually seen an Av-Matoran, but I am thinking that they'd have some detail and would write down everything they did know, or 'knew' in urban legends, for posterity. Heck, they might have a little thing about Shadow Matoran even, a few brief sentences about how they're an abomination, and there's an argument every month about whether they really need that entry in the database. (But that's, again, speculation, and getting off the topic of whether Av-Matoran would have an entry.)

[bonesiii]

I basically agree with Katuko's answers. Just to add, Greg confirmed blue is a rare but acceptable color in the range of fire, since very hot fire is blue. We haven't seen any with it, but presumably there are some. But Takua did probably take that color to subconsciously indicate that he was different, in line with Jaller's line as he died in the first movie. And the red and yellow of course are normal for Ta.Also, Matoran masks are painted, so the villagers could have also just assumed he lost his normal mask at one point and had to take an extra one intended for a Ga-Matoran. That was actually my original theory in 2001, heh.

[Lielac]

I basically agree with Katuko's answers. Just to add, Greg confirmed blue is a rare but acceptable color in the range of fire, since very hot fire is blue. We haven't seen any with it, but presumably there are some. But Takua did probably take that color to subconsciously indicate that he was different, in line with Jaller's line as he died in the first movie. And the red and yellow of course are normal for Ta.

Thanks for the input! In that case, my answers are the same as the answers I gave Katuko. :PThat little tidbit about blue being acceptable for fire is so cool. Er, hot. Shiny, let's go with that. It would definitely be an odd color, but clearly Takua's just thinking "quick, look like a Ta-Matoran" and because he's weeeeird he's that one-in-a-million with blue. That is definitely awesome.

Also, Matoran masks are painted, so the villagers could have also just assumed he lost his normal mask at one point and had to take an extra one intended for a Ga-Matoran. That was actually my original theory in 2001, heh.

Huh. Really? There's a thing in the BS01 article about the silver coloring on Metru Nui masks and how that faded away due to sun exposure (y'know, to explain why it's not there in 2001), you'd think if the whole mask was painted that would fade too... maybe it's a different paint.

[bonesiii]

Yes, that was a special paint added later for decoration, that wasn't as durable.

[Lielac]

Yes, that was a special paint added later for decoration, that wasn't as durable.

Aha. Right then, Bionicle makes sense again and my worldview is back to stability.Do you think it reasonable that the Archives would have an entry on what little they know about Av-Matoran and a lot of things the archivists can't confirm because of lack of primary sources (read: actual Av-Matoran to ask about, say, their various abilities), but put in anyway because they archive everything even the urban legends?

[Click]

I basically agree with Katuko's answers. Just to add, Greg confirmed blue is a rare but acceptable color in the range of fire, since very hot fire is blue. We haven't seen any with it, but presumably there are some. But Takua did probably take that color to subconsciously indicate that he was different, in line with Jaller's line as he died in the first movie. And the red and yellow of course are normal for Ta.Also, Matoran masks are painted, so the villagers could have also just assumed he lost his normal mask at one point and had to take an extra one intended for a Ga-Matoran. That was actually my original theory in 2001, heh.

What about those instances like in the commercials how the Toa put on a mask, and then the mask changes color to them? As far as I've seen, during the quest for the masks, the masks only changed color from a light grey once the Toa donned them.Also, BS01 says about Takua:

Sometime during his years on Metru Nui his original mask was damaged and replaced with a Pakari. It never fit very well and turned blue when worn, as it had not been locked into one color like his previous mask.

So, from that sentence, I've always assumed that due to Takua's poor disguise and his mask never fitting, it accidentally locked into blue instead of something like yellow. I guess I've never seen that Greg quote you mentioned though. Edited August 29, 2012 by Click

[bonesiii]

What about those instances like in the commercials how the Toa put on a mask, and then the mask changes color to them?

That's Toa Masks. Those are not painted; they turn colored when worn because the Toa has elemental power. This was why the Nuva's masks turned gray when their elemental powers were stolen. Matoran do not have elemental powers so without paint their masks would be gray always.I presume that quote about Takua is referring to something odd his Av-Matoran ability causes for it, but not sure. I've never heard that one or seen a quote to back it up. But what I said refers to the system in Metru Nui (and presumably all the other non-Av Matoran places). Av-Matoran might not paint them since their color power wouldn't need that, not sure.

Do you think it reasonable that the Archives would have an entry on what little they know about Av-Matoran and a lot of things the archivists can't confirm because of lack of primary sources (read: actual Av-Matoran to ask about, say, their various abilities), but put in anyway because they archive everything even the urban legends?

Depends on why you're asking. If this is for a Memoirs contest entry I would have to say no just to play it safe. For fan fiction, sure. Canonically, I have no idea. :PEdit: Here's a good quote from the Kanohi page about the basic Matoran Mask paint:

The colors of Great and Noble masks are dependent on their wearers. When Kanohi are made originally, they adopt a grayish color which they keep until they are worn. At that point the mask adopts a color with respect to the wearer. Matoran masks, having no power, will not change color at all, making it necessary to paint them in their colors.

A paragraph a little above this refers to the special top-part paint from Metru Nui:

Masks would be painted with a coloring additive after being made, to differentiate power level. Matoran masks would have silver paint added to the top half, Noble, black paint, and Great masks would remain one full color. On Mata Nui, this coloring eventually faded away from sun exposure.

I don't immediately see anything about Av-Matoran masks... Edited August 29, 2012 by bonesiii

[Katuko]

EDIT: Oh hi there again, bones.

What about those instances like in the commercials how the Toa put on a mask, and then the mask changes color to them? As far as I've seen, during the quest for the masks, the masks only changed color from a light grey once the Toa donned them.Also, BS01 says about Takua:

Toa and Turaga masks lose their color when taken off, that is canon. Every mask worn and lost by the Toa Mata followed this rule. I believe it's been said that Matoran masks are painted when they are created, and on Metru Nui the silver topping was added to show that the mask was powerless.The exceptions are masks that are molded with a certain color (Lhikan's Hau seems to have been this), or ones that flush themselves with the power they contain (such as the Avokhii and the Vahi). The Ignika even changes its color depending on its state.The question is if an Av-Matoran's latent elemental powers would allow them to color their masks naturally, without paint or their specific color-shifting ability. Edited August 29, 2012 by Katuko

[Dralcax]

What about those instances like in the commercials how the Toa put on a mask, and then the mask changes color to them?

That's Toa Masks. Those are not painted; they turn colored when worn because the Toa has elemental power. This was why the Nuva's masks turned gray when their elemental powers were stolen. Matoran do not have elemental powers so without paint their masks would be gray always.

Well, Matoran actually do have elemental power. Not enough for the Matoran to be able to actually use their powers (Except for Av-Matoran), but enough to give the Matoran a trait associated with the element (Heat resistance, strength, night vision, etc). There is probably enough power to color a mask, though. Matoran, Toa, and Turaga alike all have elemental power, the Matoran just don't have enough to be useful. Edited August 29, 2012 by Dralcax

[bonesiii]

They have elemental traits, but no actual power, other than (again) Av-Matoran. For example, a Ta-Turaga can make a candleflame, thus has some elemental power, but a Ta-Matoran can only resist heat, not make any flames at all. No, they don't have enough to color their masks; that's why they are painted instead. But Av-Matoran may be an exception (they are in so many other ways, why not lol).Edit: This is all I can find about color & Av-Matoran:

Av-Matoran are naturally clad in gold and white armor. All Av-Matoran seen have light green or yellow eyes. However, they have the ability to bend light around their bodies to change the way the color of their armor is percieved. They have been trained to use this power by reflex to help keep their elemental affiliation secret.

A search of the old OGD might turn up something though, especially using Takua as a search term since the quote that started this was on his page. Edited August 29, 2012 by bonesiii

[Lielac]

On the "elemental power gives the masks their color" thing: the Toa Nuva had gray masks when they didn't have their elemental powers, so there's another data point for... stuff.

Depends on why you're asking. If this is for a Memoirs contest entry I would have to say no just to play it safe. For fan fiction, sure. Canonically, I have no idea.

Hah. Just a fanfic, sir, not trying to sneak my personal version of the Toa Mangai into canon! (Heyyyy, while you're here... for, say, a memoir written by Lhikan, if the submitter wanted to mention his teammates that aren't Nidhiki, Naho, or Tuyet, they'd have to do it in vaaaague, vaaaaaague terms, right? So. No giving any of them names or slipping in speculation as to the unknown Toa's elements or anything like that.)

The question is if an Av-Matoran's latent elemental powers would allow them to color their masks naturally, without paint or their specific color-shifting ability.

I'd say that would fall under their ability to change the color of their armor, so... yeah. ^_^While we're off the rails and heading for color-in-general land: Kopeke was blue-white-blue before being rebuilt, but gray-white-gray after. His mask being gray I can chalk up to it being painted that way because new mask, but what about his armor? Did they have to use all the blue pieces on Matoro? XD

[bonesiii]

(Heyyyy, while you're here... for, say, a memoir written by Lhikan, if the submitter wanted to mention his teammates that aren't Nidhiki, Naho, or Tuyet, they'd have to do it in vaaaague, vaaaaaague terms, right? So. No giving any of them names or slipping in speculation as to the unknown Toa's elements or anything like that.)

Right. "One of the others spoke up. Another said something else. The first disagreed..." etc. BTW, you can PM any contest questions to me if you have more, rather than going off-topic here.

While we're off the rails and heading for color-in-general land: Kopeke was blue-white-blue before being rebuilt, but gray-white-gray after. His mask being gray I can chalk up to it being painted that way because new mask, but what about his armor? Did they have to use all the blue pieces on Matoro? XD

Those kinds of changes are basically chalked up to an effect of the transformation caused by the pods, I believe, though not sure. I personally just consider it non-headcanon.So, back on topic... Saying that Takua's mask was not locked into one color implies that it wasn't painted, yet it would remain colored if not worn. I wonder if the Pakari was painted, but not painted blue?I'm thinking that what's going on is two different ways to change colors. First, the basic armor changing option, and second, a fusion of that and the slight elemental power Av-Matoran have.If the first wasn't painted, then perhaps an unpainted mask can be permanently changed by the Av-Matoran color power plus the elemental power, as that is unique to them and not shared by Toa of other elements for example.But the Metruans would have no reason to give him a mask that wasn't painted as that was their standard procedure, so the Pakari was painted some other color. This prevents the double-up power. But just the color changing subconscious power does still operate, so donning it makes it turn blue. Perhaps it quite surprised people at the time.So there's one theory. Thunks?

[Click]

What about those instances like in the commercials how the Toa put on a mask, and then the mask changes color to them?

That's Toa Masks. Those are not painted; they turn colored when worn because the Toa has elemental power. This was why the Nuva's masks turned gray when their elemental powers were stolen. Matoran do not have elemental powers so without paint their masks would be gray always.

Well, Matoran actually do have elemental power. Not enough for the Matoran to be able to actually use their powers (Except for Av-Matoran), but enough to give the Matoran a trait associated with the element (Heat resistance, strength, night vision, etc). There is probably enough power to color a mask, though. Matoran, Toa, and Turaga alike all have elemental power, the Matoran just don't have enough to be useful.

That's a very good point. It would fit with everything we've presented. For the mask, he colored it with his powers, but due to it never fitting correctly, and his poor disguise, it somehow glitched and turned blue.

[Lielac]

So, back on topic... Saying that Takua's mask was not locked into one color implies that it wasn't painted, yet it would remain colored if not worn. I wonder if the Pakari was painted, but not painted blue?I'm thinking that what's going on is two different ways to change colors. First, the basic armor changing option, and second, a fusion of that and the slight elemental power Av-Matoran have.If the first wasn't painted, then perhaps an unpainted mask can be permanently changed by the Av-Matoran color power plus the elemental power, as that is unique to them and not shared by Toa of other elements for example.But the Metruans would have no reason to give him a mask that wasn't painted as that was their standard procedure, so the Pakari was painted some other color. This prevents the double-up power. But just the color changing subconscious power does still operate, so donning it makes it turn blue. Perhaps it quite surprised people at the time.So there's one theory. Thunks?

It sounds entirely reasonable and intriguingly canon-compliant and now I have an urge to write yet another short story. It's not like I don't already have three WIPs open, do I really need to write this particular snippet of possible canon too? (The biomechanical plot bunnies chewing on my ankles say yes.)Would that basic armor changing option be available to all Kanohi-wearing beings, or only those with a minimum amount of elemental energy available for their use?Permanently changed? So, 'painted' in a way, just with the Av-Matoran power instead of actual paint? Interesting. This possibility could lend credence to Katuko's postulation that Av-Matoran color changing works like an on-off switch, though that still doesn't seem likely because what I know of it, like needing to be trained to use it by reflex, implies it requires thought on some level at all times.That does seem more likely. Takua is always different and so the mask becomes a rare Ta-Matoran color to signify that, and everyone is surprised but eventually chalks it up to "Takua is weird and different and strange, what else is new?" Edited August 30, 2012 by Lielac

[The Iron Toa]

That idea about Takua turning his mask blue is great! So, you're saying Kanohi are either painted or colored by elemental powers. Does that mean beings like Trinuma and Axonn that wear Kanohi but have no elemental powers must wear painted masks?

[bonesiii]

Well, there's more ways to color masks than just those two. I'm just talking about the two that my theory applies to Takua throughout his life, since he had two masks.Another option is to use colored protodermis when molding them, as seems to be the case for Lhikan's mask. That or paint might explain some like Trinuma. As for Axonn, are we sure his silver mask is considered colored at all? That might be a representation of an uncolored gray mask. In the comics such masks have been portrayed as silvery metallic.

[Katuko]

As for Axonn, are we sure his silver mask is considered colored at all? That might be a representation of an uncolored gray mask. In the comics such masks have been portrayed as silvery metallic.

Mutran described the Avohkii as such in his blog serial:

Well do I remember the first time I saw the Kanohi Avohkii, or Mask of Light. Truly no more vile or disgusting thing has ever been created in this universe. There it was in the hands of Teridax, not even having the courtesy to be the color of a lump of clay when not being worn - oh, no, the Avohkii gleamed golden.

From that description, the "powerless" color sounds more like it would be gray than silver. In the MNOG, Wairuha's Mask of Wisdom (silver) was colored a bit lighter than Lewa's is when it's shown in the Nui-Rama hive. In both the comics and the online animations, when the Nuva have lost their power, we can also clearly see that their masks are gray while their tools are still gleaming silver. Masks that are not being worn, such as the Hau Kopaka retrieves in the very first comic, is shining brightly, but so were basically everything in those comics. Kopaka and Pohatu behind him both have very shiny metal on their masks and armor, and even Nuju (who was light gray) looks like he's polished his mask to the point of being bright silver. Edited August 30, 2012 by Katuko

[Nuparu1995]

Well, I assume that would be corrected with...well...being thrown across an island, yeah. :lol:And Takua would have forgotten about his Light powers upon becoming a "Ta-Matoran" during the Time Slip. Despite this, he would still have had them, just never had anything happen to them where he would miraculously and instinctively activate them.And since Av-Matoran stopped moving around the Matoran Universe following the Time Slip and were completely separated in Karda Nui, completely out of anyone's memory, so I don't imagine the Onu-Metru Archives would have any records on them.